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Date: 18 Oct 2003 16:07:46
From: Cardano
Subject: Online Poker & Robots
What do poeple think are the chances that at least some of the players
in online poker games are robots? I don't mean something the site
itself does, but software which clever programmers might write to
interface with the site in such a way as toi be able to play
automatically according to strategies the owners of these programs
wished to have implemented.

Obviously, if someone were to market such a program, and the site had
no way of preventing its use, the whole thing could rapidly collapse
into just these robots playing each other. Of course this assumes
that the robots were good enough to outplay the vast majority of human
players, and perhaps such a level of play is ot ye within reach of
poker programmers.

But, what about this scenario: Suppose I write a program which can
make .2 BBs per hour in a game in which a good player could make say 1
BB per hour. But this program could play in say 20 games 24/7. Let's
assume it just plays 3-6 HE. It would be making $24 per hour 24/7 for
over $4000 per week. So only a weakly succesful program could be very
lucrative.

Could anyone be doing this? Clearly it wouln't be cost effective to
sell such a program. Would it actually be feasible to extract the
necessary data from the poker sites in order ot employ such a program?

[email protected] remove XYZ to communicate

Cardano


 
Date: 18 Oct 2003 20:45:11
From: Soleo
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
Hello,

Simple answer is "yes", it's all possible like you said. Do Google Groups
search on this. It is one of MOST popular topics here during last 5 years
or longer. Look for words: bot Scoopmonster auto-play Poki.

Soleo






 
Date: 18 Oct 2003 20:49:03
From: Artist Formerly Known as PA
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
I know a guy who was running a program and losing his rear end. It is not
intelligent and is used mostly for playing hands to meet bonus requirements.
He used this program at ACR when they were relatively new and were paying
daily for hands played. He made thousands. But as far as it beating anyone
it sucks. So I am sure there are others out there with intelligence that are
turning a profit. This I truly believe.

PA


"Cardano" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What do poeple think are the chances that at least some of the players
> in online poker games are robots? I don't mean something the site
> itself does, but software which clever programmers might write to
> interface with the site in such a way as toi be able to play
> automatically according to strategies the owners of these programs
> wished to have implemented.
>
> Obviously, if someone were to market such a program, and the site had
> no way of preventing its use, the whole thing could rapidly collapse
> into just these robots playing each other. Of course this assumes
> that the robots were good enough to outplay the vast majority of human
> players, and perhaps such a level of play is ot ye within reach of
> poker programmers.
>
> But, what about this scenario: Suppose I write a program which can
> make .2 BBs per hour in a game in which a good player could make say 1
> BB per hour. But this program could play in say 20 games 24/7. Let's
> assume it just plays 3-6 HE. It would be making $24 per hour 24/7 for
> over $4000 per week. So only a weakly succesful program could be very
> lucrative.
>
> Could anyone be doing this? Clearly it wouln't be cost effective to
> sell such a program. Would it actually be feasible to extract the
> necessary data from the poker sites in order ot employ such a program?
>
> [email protected] remove XYZ to communicate
>
> Cardano




 
Date: 18 Oct 2003 21:04:28
From: Peg Smith
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
In article <[email protected] >, Cardano
<[email protected] > writes:

>What do poeple think are the chances that at least some of the players
>in online poker games are robots? I don't mean something the site
>itself does, but software which clever programmers might write to
>interface with the site in such a way as toi be able to play
>automatically according to strategies the owners of these programs
>wished to have implemented...

This has been discussed here many times. Do a Google search for "bots".

Peg


 
Date: 18 Oct 2003 18:25:13
From: kjakja
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
The bots are used by site owners to increase their profits without
distorting stats.

"Cardano" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What do poeple think are the chances that at least some of the players
> in online poker games are robots? I don't mean something the site
> itself does, but software which clever programmers might write to
> interface with the site in such a way as toi be able to play
> automatically according to strategies the owners of these programs
> wished to have implemented.
>
> Obviously, if someone were to market such a program, and the site had
> no way of preventing its use, the whole thing could rapidly collapse
> into just these robots playing each other. Of course this assumes
> that the robots were good enough to outplay the vast majority of human
> players, and perhaps such a level of play is ot ye within reach of
> poker programmers.
>
> But, what about this scenario: Suppose I write a program which can
> make .2 BBs per hour in a game in which a good player could make say 1
> BB per hour. But this program could play in say 20 games 24/7. Let's
> assume it just plays 3-6 HE. It would be making $24 per hour 24/7 for
> over $4000 per week. So only a weakly succesful program could be very
> lucrative.
>
> Could anyone be doing this? Clearly it wouln't be cost effective to
> sell such a program. Would it actually be feasible to extract the
> necessary data from the poker sites in order ot employ such a program?
>
> [email protected] remove XYZ to communicate
>
> Cardano




  
Date: 18 Oct 2003 17:57:56
From: Octo the Genarian
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots

"kjakja" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> The bots are used by site owners to increase their profits without
> distorting stats.
>

And the rectal probes are used by the alien visitors to discover the hidden
source of so much human knowledge.




 
Date: 19 Oct 2003 07:30:16
From: Nomen Nescio
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
You bet your sweet bot they are out there. Just a few clues:
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~games/poker/FAQ.html
Q: Does Poki play on any of the online poker servers?

A: No. Poki may participate in online games in the future (including real-money games), but the program will always be clearly identified, so players will always have a choice of whether they want to play in a game with Poki or not.
[If you are a manager of an online poker server, and you are interested in having Poki play at your site, please contact [email protected]].



Q: Where can I learn more about online poker servers?

A: Poker Pulse tracks statistics on many online poker servers, with links to each one, where you can learn more.

And this was taken from Aaron Davidson's blog(he wrote poki)
Wednesday August 13, 2003
I've also discovered the joy of Paradise Poker's new 1v1 No-Limit tournaments. It's fun and fast paced, and most importantly, most of the players suck really bad. I'm doing pretty well so far with 29 wins and 12 losses (a 70% win-rate). I havn't tried the higher buy-in's yet, but once I build up a nice big bank roll, I'll give it a try.

I'm also involved in making a little program to help out the



 
Date: 19 Oct 2003 03:20:03
From: TD Lowball
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
In article <[email protected] >, Cardano
<[email protected] > wrote:


> But, what about this scenario: Suppose I write a program which can
> make .2 BBs per hour in a game in which a good player could make say 1
> BB per hour. But this program could play in say 20 games 24/7. Let's
> assume it just plays 3-6 HE. It would be making $24 per hour 24/7 for
> over $4000 per week. So only a weakly succesful program could be very
> lucrative.

Suppose I write a program that would take %5 to $3 from every pot? Do
you think that would be profitable?

TD Lowball --


  
Date: 19 Oct 2003 13:32:41
From: Cardano
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 03:20:03 -0400, TD Lowball <[email protected] >
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Cardano
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> But, what about this scenario: Suppose I write a program which can
>> make .2 BBs per hour in a game in which a good player could make say 1
>> BB per hour. But this program could play in say 20 games 24/7. Let's
>> assume it just plays 3-6 HE. It would be making $24 per hour 24/7 for
>> over $4000 per week. So only a weakly succesful program could be very
>> lucrative.
>
>Suppose I write a program that would take %5 to $3 from every pot? Do
>you think that would be profitable?
>
>TD Lowball --

Hey TD, that's pretty funny.

Seriously, though, mesmerized by the obvious consequences of the same
numbers you quote, a friend and I looked into what was involved in
setting up an off-shore operation to do just thata few years ago.
There's no doubt the numbers looked good, and still do, in spite of
the much greater compeition now. When we looked at this, I think
there were only two or three online poker sites. The basic hurdles or
barriers then were getting the software developed and the the
necessity of dealing with the selected foreign governments WRT to
license fees etc. etc. We didn't at that point have the capital
needed for this venture.

On another note: Before this online poker craze really took off, I
was really amazed at all the people I talked to who really should have
known better who said this sort of thing could never work. There was
no end to the arguments of serious poker players in my acquaintance as
to why this wouldn't work. Needless to say, almost all these
arguments were as bogus as was the argument of senior people at IBM
way back when they concluded that "there was no market for home
computers." Programmers were more objective. One of the arguments
which was not bogus was the security argument. My own view is that *in
principle* there can be more security in online poker than B&M poker
because of the hand histories that are stored.

And to some degree the way a player with an edge as determined by his
playing results should view the possibility of being cheated is the
way the owner of a retail outlet views shoplifitng: try to minimize
it as much as possible by all the techniques at your disposal, and
what you can't eliminate just regard in the same light as other
bsuiness overhead such as lights, rent and heat etc. This applies to
online and B&M poker. When I played for a living I was cheated on a
number of occasions that I know of, and almost certainly on some
occasions which went undetected, but finished in the black every year.

One defense against dishonesty arises out of having a choice as to
where to play. I tended to avoid venues in which it seemed I was
"very unlucky," just in case something other than luck was involved.
Sometimes I was assisted in this avoidance by "rumors." These
principles would apply both online and off I would think.

Cardano


   
Date: 20 Oct 2003 03:14:35
From: TD Lowball
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
On Oct 19 2003 1:32PM, Cardano wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 03:20:03 -0400, TD Lowball <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, Cardano
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> But, what about this scenario: Suppose I write a program which can
> >> make .2 BBs per hour in a game in which a good player could make say 1
> >> BB per hour. But this program could play in say 20 games 24/7. Let's
> >> assume it just plays 3-6 HE. It would be making $24 per hour 24/7 for
> >> over $4000 per week. So only a weakly succesful program could be very
> >> lucrative.
> >
> >Suppose I write a program that would take %5 to $3 from every pot? Do
> >you think that would be profitable?
> >
> >TD Lowball --
>
> Hey TD, that's pretty funny.
>
> Seriously, though, mesmerized by the obvious consequences of the same
> numbers you quote, a friend and I looked into what was involved in
> setting up an off-shore operation to do just thata few years ago.
> There's no doubt the numbers looked good, and still do, in spite of
> the much greater compeition now. When we looked at this, I think
> there were only two or three online poker sites. The basic hurdles or
> barriers then were getting the software developed and the the
> necessity of dealing with the selected foreign governments WRT to
> license fees etc. etc. We didn't at that point have the capital
> needed for this venture.

I think a a small bunch of programmers could set up a credible poker site
pretty easyly for around $200,000 not including licensing etc.

The old IRC poker system offers a model. Though I imagine that a lower
bandwith protocol could be used. With a proper network of servers you
could have 50,000 players online easly. Your biggest expense would be
having a robust OLTP system for keeping track of everyones bankrolls,
along with maintaining a e-commerce system for handling payments, and
bandwidth.

Basic design is:

Small number of IRC servers,

Game servers to host r00lbots.

Mirrored OLTP system, Capable of a few hundred transactions per second.

E-commerce middle-ware system to interface your accounting system with the
outside financial world.

Data wharehouse, for keeping hand history's/player info for later
analysis.

Secure and pretty IRC poker client.



The gist of security for an online poker site is assuming an untrusted
client, And you handle that via information hiding.






    
Date: 23 Oct 2003 01:25:43
From: JP
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
What's "information hiding"?

>
> The gist of security for an online poker site is assuming an untrusted
> client, And you handle that via information hiding.
>
>
>
>




     
Date: 23 Oct 2003 23:36:15
From: TD Lowball
Subject: Re: Online Poker & Robots
In article <[email protected] >, "JP"
<[email protected] > wrote:

> What's "information hiding"?
>
> >
> > The gist of security for an online poker site is assuming an untrusted
> > client, And you handle that via information hiding.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

It means that the client only gets the minimum amount of data it needs
to do it's job, so that if the client is compromised, it's not that big
of a deal.

TD Lowball --