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Date: 26 Dec 2008 07:54:48
From: thedarkman
Subject: tournament question
I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
both cards and I'm out.

Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.




 
Date: 30 Dec 2008 12:34:09
From: Lute
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26, 9:13=A0pm, "Steam" <a74b...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Dec 26 2008 1:03 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
>
> > On Dec 26 2008 12:52 PM, QueenBee wrote:
>
> > > Lute, well written and informative. I will read all of your posts, as
> > > I run across them.
>
> > Lute is a crazy loon with horrible poker advice. =A0Following his advic=
e is
> > not a good way to win money at poker. =A0There's a reason half of RGP h=
as
> > him killfiled. =A0Not only is he crazy, but he insists that his way is =
the
> > only way. =A0Good luck with it if you decide to follow his advice.
>
> Lute is the author of some of the craziest ideas I've ever come across.
>
> ------=A0
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more..www.recgroups.com

So was Galileo in his day. :)


 
Date: 30 Dec 2008 12:33:09
From: Lute
Subject: Re: tournament question
I don't give poker advice.
I give my opinion, and my experience.
People decide for themselves how to play,
and having read a number of opinions, even wrong ones, can only help
if you analyze WHY you are doing what you do,
and making constant adjustments based on your experience.
I'm a Loon. You got a problem with that? :)

=3D*=3D*=3D

On Dec 26, 4:03=A0pm, "XaQ Morphy" <a1c5...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Dec 26 2008 12:52 PM, QueenBee wrote:
>
> > Lute, well written and informative. I will read all of your posts, as
> > I run across them.
>
> Lute is a crazy loon with horrible poker advice. =A0Following his advice =
is
> not a good way to win money at poker. =A0There's a reason half of RGP has
> him killfiled. =A0Not only is he crazy, but he insists that his way is th=
e
> only way. =A0Good luck with it if you decide to follow his advice.
>
> ---
> Morphy
> xaqmor...@donkeymanifesto.comhttp://www.donkeymanifesto.com
> "SHUT UP IDIOT" =A0--The Great Patholio
>
> ________________________________________________________________________=
=A0
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 30 Dec 2008 12:29:11
From: Lute
Subject: Re: tournament question
Well then, they can't be all that good, if you intend to "run across
them."
lol

=3D*=3D*=3D

On Dec 26, 1:52=A0pm, QueenBee <brendatagg...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Dec 26, 8:45=A0am, Lute <lutelat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 26, 10:54=A0am, thedarkman <A_Ba...@ABaron.Demon.Co.UK> wrote:
>
> > > I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> > > about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> > > big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> > > behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> > > raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> > > and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> > > both cards and I'm out.
>
> > > Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> > > fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.
>
> > You have two issues here:
>
> > First, you did not play "badly," given the necessarily limited
> > information any question poses. (It appears you were in an online
> > trny.) =A0In low buy-in tournaments, players will bluff, even misread
> > their hands, and it becomes almost impossible to place them on a range
> > of hands. =A0So you have to go with your trny position and pot odds.
>
> > For example, yesterday, I was in a similar situation. =A0The fellow to
> > my right was bluffing hand after hand, going all in, and showing his
> > bluffs. =A0Finally I had a medium pair and called him. =A0He had a high=
er
> > pair, and took most of my stack.
>
> > Happens.
>
> > The second issue is whether you should play with an eye to making the
> > money, or going for broke with a chance at the big win.
>
> > I've tried it a number of ways, and given the kinds of tourney I play
> > online ($11 to $33 buy-in mostly), I've adopted the survival strategy
> > as the one that seems to work out best.
>
> > If I get below 20 BB, I start to look for chances to move all in, but
> > I need reasonably good pot odds. =A0I assume that a big stack will
> > probably call me, so I can't make a raw bluff. =A0As my stack decreases=
,
> > I decrease my hand-strength requirements for going all in. =A0Rarely do
> > I have to blind all in, since any small pair, any suited ace, and any
> > connectors will do before it gets to having only one BB left.
>
> > However, above 20 BB, I pay close attention to my standing in the
> > trny. =A0If I'm high enough up that I can probably fold into the money,
> > I will play very, very tight. =A0It's in these situations that I
> > sometimes go all in with AA or KK preflop, and sometimes get
> > eliminated. =A0But mostly I fold to any challenge.
>
> > One line of reasoning is that, in trnys, you usually can afford to
> > wait for good situations (pot odds or easy bluffs) before risking your
> > trny life, at least until you are close to the money. =A0Most of my big
> > wins in trnys come when I have waited, and then get a run of good pots
> > that propel me up into the top few percent of remaining players. =A0Suc=
h
> > runs will come often enough to make it worthwhile to employ the
> > "survival" strategy.
>
> > Mike Sexton wrote an article about this, that suggested a similar
> > idea. =A0Just try to make the money first, and then take prudent chance=
s
> > to climb the ladder.
>
> > Of course, you still have to go with your gut at times. =A0When it
> > works, you're a hero. =A0When it fails, you're waiting for the next trn=
y
> > to start.
>
> > Sorry to make such an ill-prepared reply, but I'm sure you get the
> > basic idea here.
> > Adjust your risk assessments throughout the tourney, take prudent
> > risks, and hope for the best.
>
> Lute, well written and informative. I will read all of your posts, as
> I run across them.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 30 Dec 2008 11:22:30
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: tournament question
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.

It is right to CALL if you have enough behind, but raising all in is a
REALLY dumb move.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

--- 
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Date: 30 Dec 2008 13:30:17
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 30 2008 2:22 PM, John_Brian_K wrote:

> > Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> > fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.
>
> It is right to CALL if you have enough behind, but raising all in is a
> REALLY dumb move.
>
> ========================================
> You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
> nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
> ========
> BOOM byae
> John

Why?

Farson

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 06:46:53
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: tournament question
> Why?
>
> Farson

Shit I dunno? It just sounded g0000t

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

---- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




 
Date: 27 Dec 2008 07:31:37
From: I eat donks
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 3:54 PM, thedarkman wrote:

> I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> both cards and I'm out.
>
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.

You played bad. 99 is not the hand to call/raise a shortie big raise with
a big stack already in along for the ride, unless you think you had some
sort of FE, which according to you, you haven't. I also doubt that you
had enough odds to set farm given the 'big' raise by the shortie.

Fold and look for a better spot, unless you are short as well.

Next time you might like to add a bit more imformation when you ask a
question. I based my answer on the assumption that it was 9/10 handed,
and with you on a healthy stack, and the big stack had an auto call due to
the size of the pot/stack ratio.

You might get some morons saying pushing isn't so bad, or some others
trying to be clever by making some smart remarks without attempting to
answer the question. You can safely ignore them. If you meant what you
said, the best that you were looking at were two/four overs to your nines,
why are you looking for a flip when the big stack had you covered, and you
could well be the big dog?

Learn to fold more often, which seems the hardest play to learn in online
poker for most people.


'So donkeys, come rally,
And the last hand let us raise!
The miracle suck-outs will tally,
And save the donkey race!'

____________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




 
Date: 27 Dec 2008 06:46:48
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 9:54 AM, thedarkman wrote:

> I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> both cards and I'm out.
>
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.


So you were '3rd man in" for all your money with 99 ??

that is about as bad a play as you can make



Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 30 Dec 2008 11:34:42
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: tournament question
> So you were '3rd man in" for all your money with 99 ??
>
> that is about as bad a play as you can make

Very good Doggy!

Straight forward and to the point.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

------ 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 12:13:49
From: thedarkman
Subject: Re: tournament question
I played another one tonight. I called a small raise with 33 then
there was an all-in. This is the first hand of a freeroll, and I
fold. Someone calls with 8-9; the all-in has AK. They both miss, my
hand would have tripled up.

Same tourney some muppet calls bets into a paired board with nothing
and sucks out with a straight. You can't beat morons.

On 26 Dec, 18:59, "MMelia" <a4f6...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Dec 26 2008 11:45 AM, Lute wrote:
>
>
> > On Dec 26, 10:54=A0am, thedarkman <A_Ba...@ABaron.Demon.Co.UK> wrote:
>


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 12:47:34
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 3:13 PM, thedarkman wrote:

> I played another one tonight. I called a small raise with 33 then
> there was an all-in. This is the first hand of a freeroll, and I
> fold. Someone calls with 8-9; the all-in has AK. They both miss, my
> hand would have tripled up.
>
> Same tourney some muppet calls bets into a paired board with nothing
> and sucks out with a straight. You can't beat morons.

I beg to differ. I beat morons all the time.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

_____________________________________________________________________ 
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Date: 26 Dec 2008 10:52:29
From: QueenBee
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26, 8:45=A0am, Lute <lutelat...@msn.com > wrote:
> On Dec 26, 10:54=A0am, thedarkman <A_Ba...@ABaron.Demon.Co.UK> wrote:
>
> > I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> > about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> > big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> > behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> > raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> > and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> > both cards and I'm out.
>
> > Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> > fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.
>
> You have two issues here:
>
> First, you did not play "badly," given the necessarily limited
> information any question poses. (It appears you were in an online
> trny.) =A0In low buy-in tournaments, players will bluff, even misread
> their hands, and it becomes almost impossible to place them on a range
> of hands. =A0So you have to go with your trny position and pot odds.
>
> For example, yesterday, I was in a similar situation. =A0The fellow to
> my right was bluffing hand after hand, going all in, and showing his
> bluffs. =A0Finally I had a medium pair and called him. =A0He had a higher
> pair, and took most of my stack.
>
> Happens.
>
> The second issue is whether you should play with an eye to making the
> money, or going for broke with a chance at the big win.
>
> I've tried it a number of ways, and given the kinds of tourney I play
> online ($11 to $33 buy-in mostly), I've adopted the survival strategy
> as the one that seems to work out best.
>
> If I get below 20 BB, I start to look for chances to move all in, but
> I need reasonably good pot odds. =A0I assume that a big stack will
> probably call me, so I can't make a raw bluff. =A0As my stack decreases,
> I decrease my hand-strength requirements for going all in. =A0Rarely do
> I have to blind all in, since any small pair, any suited ace, and any
> connectors will do before it gets to having only one BB left.
>
> However, above 20 BB, I pay close attention to my standing in the
> trny. =A0If I'm high enough up that I can probably fold into the money,
> I will play very, very tight. =A0It's in these situations that I
> sometimes go all in with AA or KK preflop, and sometimes get
> eliminated. =A0But mostly I fold to any challenge.
>
> One line of reasoning is that, in trnys, you usually can afford to
> wait for good situations (pot odds or easy bluffs) before risking your
> trny life, at least until you are close to the money. =A0Most of my big
> wins in trnys come when I have waited, and then get a run of good pots
> that propel me up into the top few percent of remaining players. =A0Such
> runs will come often enough to make it worthwhile to employ the
> "survival" strategy.
>
> Mike Sexton wrote an article about this, that suggested a similar
> idea. =A0Just try to make the money first, and then take prudent chances
> to climb the ladder.
>
> Of course, you still have to go with your gut at times. =A0When it
> works, you're a hero. =A0When it fails, you're waiting for the next trny
> to start.
>
> Sorry to make such an ill-prepared reply, but I'm sure you get the
> basic idea here.
> Adjust your risk assessments throughout the tourney, take prudent
> risks, and hope for the best.

Lute, well written and informative. I will read all of your posts, as
I run across them.


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 13:03:27
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 12:52 PM, QueenBee wrote:

> Lute, well written and informative. I will read all of your posts, as
> I run across them.

Lute is a crazy loon with horrible poker advice. Following his advice is
not a good way to win money at poker. There's a reason half of RGP has
him killfiled. Not only is he crazy, but he insists that his way is the
only way. Good luck with it if you decide to follow his advice.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

________________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




   
Date: 26 Dec 2008 18:13:06
From: Steam
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 1:03 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 26 2008 12:52 PM, QueenBee wrote:
>
> > Lute, well written and informative. I will read all of your posts, as
> > I run across them.
>
> Lute is a crazy loon with horrible poker advice. Following his advice is
> not a good way to win money at poker. There's a reason half of RGP has
> him killfiled. Not only is he crazy, but he insists that his way is the
> only way. Good luck with it if you decide to follow his advice.
>

Lute is the author of some of the craziest ideas I've ever come across.

------ 
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Date: 26 Dec 2008 10:37:07
From: thedarkman
Subject: Re: tournament question
Apart from the MindSports - which is from bragging rights only - I
haven't played live since 2002. I've had some good No Limit wins on-
line but generally play only freerolls - including qualifiers with
some big prize pools - and smaller tournaments. I also play smallish
sit and go's, Omaha hi lo etc. I've had a bad run of late but have
been doing very well in the cash game, which is my main source of
income.

The problem with all on-line poker is there are so many morons and you
never know what they have. A couple of nights ago in a NL tourney I
raised fairly big with AK and missed the flop. I whacked in a
continuation bet against one opponent, and he called. The third heart
hit the turn, so I whacked in the rest with my ace of hearts. This
moron had J-deuce suited. He calls a quarter of his stack with jack-
deuce, then another big bet with a third high flush draw. And when the
fourth heart came on the river he cursed me. Most of the time you
aren't so lucky. I saw some prick chase down a set of kings with a
gutshot rag the other day; it happens all the time.

On 26 Dec, 17:18, Joe Long <nos...@spam.com > wrote:
> thedarkman wrote:

>
> You made a classic mistake of considering what the short stack would do
> and your chances against him, while ignoring the third player who had
> already called the shorty's raise. =A0You call him a "moron with more
> chips than sense," did you play this long without figuring out that he
> might call your all-in? =A0You said the shorty raised without going
> all-in, meaning he probably wanted a call. =A0Did you really want to be
> all-in preflop against two players with your 99, one of them having you
> covered, at this point in the tournament?
>


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 14:25:42
From: MZB
Subject: Re: tournament question
Hi Darkman:

Yes, there are plenty of morons in these tourneys. That's what I DEPEND on.

But, I think you made a big mistake here.
9-9 plays well against one opponent. At least it is a reasonable coin flip.

But, what do you expect against 2 opponents?
One may already have a higher pair.

At worst, each may have 2 cards above a 9. So, you have 3 or 4 higher cards.
The odds are stacked way against you. Or you may have a lower pair and say
an A-K. that's 3 cards that can knock you out.

It's just not a good move. Again, against one all-in, I would go for it.
But against two, you are in deep doo-doo.

Regardless of your opinion of the players, it's not worth putting your
tourney life on the line in this situation.

Mel



"thedarkman" <A_Baron@ABaron.Demon.Co.UK > wrote in message
news:d11d9cce-1536-4f14-98d6-3fe5367ec148@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Apart from the MindSports - which is from bragging rights only - I
haven't played live since 2002. I've had some good No Limit wins on-
line but generally play only freerolls - including qualifiers with
some big prize pools - and smaller tournaments. I also play smallish
sit and go's, Omaha hi lo etc. I've had a bad run of late but have
been doing very well in the cash game, which is my main source of
income.

The problem with all on-line poker is there are so many morons and you
never know what they have. A couple of nights ago in a NL tourney I
raised fairly big with AK and missed the flop. I whacked in a
continuation bet against one opponent, and he called. The third heart
hit the turn, so I whacked in the rest with my ace of hearts. This
moron had J-deuce suited. He calls a quarter of his stack with jack-
deuce, then another big bet with a third high flush draw. And when the
fourth heart came on the river he cursed me. Most of the time you
aren't so lucky. I saw some prick chase down a set of kings with a
gutshot rag the other day; it happens all the time.

On 26 Dec, 17:18, Joe Long <nos...@spam.com > wrote:
> thedarkman wrote:

>
> You made a classic mistake of considering what the short stack would do
> and your chances against him, while ignoring the third player who had
> already called the shorty's raise. You call him a "moron with more
> chips than sense," did you play this long without figuring out that he
> might call your all-in? You said the shorty raised without going
> all-in, meaning he probably wanted a call. Did you really want to be
> all-in preflop against two players with your 99, one of them having you
> covered, at this point in the tournament?
>




   
Date: 26 Dec 2008 12:44:51
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 2:25 PM, MZB wrote:

> Hi Darkman:
>
> Yes, there are plenty of morons in these tourneys. That's what I DEPEND on.
>
> But, I think you made a big mistake here.
> 9-9 plays well against one opponent. At least it is a reasonable coin flip.
>
> But, what do you expect against 2 opponents?
> One may already have a higher pair.
>
> At worst, each may have 2 cards above a 9. So, you have 3 or 4 higher cards.
> The odds are stacked way against you. Or you may have a lower pair and say
> an A-K. that's 3 cards that can knock you out.
>
> It's just not a good move. Again, against one all-in, I would go for it.
> But against two, you are in deep doo-doo.
>
> Regardless of your opinion of the players, it's not worth putting your
> tourney life on the line in this situation.
>
> Mel

"At worst". Really?

Never gonna run into smaller pockets?

Never going to pick up the pot or coinflip against the shortstack getting
2:1?

Interesting.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

-------- 
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Date: 26 Dec 2008 10:18:00
From: Joe Long
Subject: Re: tournament question
thedarkman wrote:
> I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> both cards and I'm out.
>
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.

You made a classic mistake of considering what the short stack would do
and your chances against him, while ignoring the third player who had
already called the shorty's raise. You call him a "moron with more
chips than sense," did you play this long without figuring out that he
might call your all-in? You said the shorty raised without going
all-in, meaning he probably wanted a call. Did you really want to be
all-in preflop against two players with your 99, one of them having you
covered, at this point in the tournament?

You didn't tell us how much of your stack you had to commit to call the
short stack, or to put him all-in without going all-in yourself, two
options that you had. You didn't tell us how much more the big-stack
had than you had (i.e., how risky it was for him to call your all-in) or
what odds he was getting to call.

At this stage of a tournament you want to build your stack, but
generally avoid all-in confrontations with bigger stacks.

The bottom line, you had an above-average stack half-way through and
blew it by taking an ill-considered risk. Blaming it on the big-stack
who called you won't help you avoid the same mistake in the future.


--
Joe Long aka ChipRider
Somewhere on the Range


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 12:41:01
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 12:18 PM, Joe Long wrote:

> thedarkman wrote:
> > I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> > about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> > big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> > behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> > raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> > and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> > both cards and I'm out.
> >
> > Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> > fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.
>
> You made a classic mistake of considering what the short stack would do
> and your chances against him, while ignoring the third player who had
> already called the shorty's raise. You call him a "moron with more
> chips than sense," did you play this long without figuring out that he
> might call your all-in? You said the shorty raised without going
> all-in, meaning he probably wanted a call. Did you really want to be
> all-in preflop against two players with your 99, one of them having you
> covered, at this point in the tournament?
>
> You didn't tell us how much of your stack you had to commit to call the
> short stack, or to put him all-in without going all-in yourself, two
> options that you had. You didn't tell us how much more the big-stack
> had than you had (i.e., how risky it was for him to call your all-in) or
> what odds he was getting to call.
>
> At this stage of a tournament you want to build your stack, but
> generally avoid all-in confrontations with bigger stacks.
>
> The bottom line, you had an above-average stack half-way through and
> blew it by taking an ill-considered risk. Blaming it on the big-stack
> who called you won't help you avoid the same mistake in the future.
>
>
> --
> Joe Long aka ChipRider
> Somewhere on the Range

God bless players like you and Lute.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 27 Dec 2008 11:17:11
From: Joe Long
Subject: Re: tournament question
FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 26 2008 12:18 PM, Joe Long wrote:

>> You made a classic mistake of considering what the short stack would do
>> and your chances against him, while ignoring the third player who had
>> already called the shorty's raise. You call him a "moron with more
>> chips than sense," did you play this long without figuring out that he
>> might call your all-in? You said the shorty raised without going
>> all-in, meaning he probably wanted a call. Did you really want to be
>> all-in preflop against two players with your 99, one of them having you
>> covered, at this point in the tournament?
>>
>> You didn't tell us how much of your stack you had to commit to call the
>> short stack, or to put him all-in without going all-in yourself, two
>> options that you had. You didn't tell us how much more the big-stack
>> had than you had (i.e., how risky it was for him to call your all-in) or
>> what odds he was getting to call.
>>
>> At this stage of a tournament you want to build your stack, but
>> generally avoid all-in confrontations with bigger stacks.
>>
>> The bottom line, you had an above-average stack half-way through and
>> blew it by taking an ill-considered risk. Blaming it on the big-stack
>> who called you won't help you avoid the same mistake in the future.

> God bless players like you and Lute.

I'd be interested in hearing your critique of the specifics of what I
wrote. Seriously.

IMO 99 is a good hand to be first-raiser with, less so when someone
raises in front of you, and not so good when a big stack has called a
raise in front of you. Pushing with it if there had been no callers of
the short-stack's raise is the right play, the big-stack joining the
party changes the situation.

How would you have played it? Why?


--
Joe Long aka ChipRider
Somewhere on the Range


    
Date: 30 Dec 2008 09:52:02
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 27 2008 1:17 PM, Joe Long wrote:

> FellKnight wrote:
> > On Dec 26 2008 12:18 PM, Joe Long wrote:
>
> >> You made a classic mistake of considering what the short stack would do
> >> and your chances against him, while ignoring the third player who had
> >> already called the shorty's raise. You call him a "moron with more
> >> chips than sense," did you play this long without figuring out that he
> >> might call your all-in? You said the shorty raised without going
> >> all-in, meaning he probably wanted a call. Did you really want to be
> >> all-in preflop against two players with your 99, one of them having you
> >> covered, at this point in the tournament?
> >>
> >> You didn't tell us how much of your stack you had to commit to call the
> >> short stack, or to put him all-in without going all-in yourself, two
> >> options that you had. You didn't tell us how much more the big-stack
> >> had than you had (i.e., how risky it was for him to call your all-in) or
> >> what odds he was getting to call.
> >>
> >> At this stage of a tournament you want to build your stack, but
> >> generally avoid all-in confrontations with bigger stacks.
> >>
> >> The bottom line, you had an above-average stack half-way through and
> >> blew it by taking an ill-considered risk. Blaming it on the big-stack
> >> who called you won't help you avoid the same mistake in the future.
>
> > God bless players like you and Lute.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing your critique of the specifics of what I
> wrote. Seriously.
>
> IMO 99 is a good hand to be first-raiser with, less so when someone
> raises in front of you, and not so good when a big stack has called a
> raise in front of you. Pushing with it if there had been no callers of
> the short-stack's raise is the right play, the big-stack joining the
> party changes the situation.
>
> How would you have played it? Why?
>
>
> --
> Joe Long aka ChipRider
> Somewhere on the Range


We did not get nearly enough information in the OP to make an accurate
decision, but I suspect that the play was a +EV one.

My point was moreover in the posters that say "ZOMFG 99 O RLY?"

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 27 Dec 2008 10:40:43
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 27 2008 12:17 PM, Joe Long wrote:

> I'd be interested in hearing your critique of the specifics of what I
> wrote. Seriously.

My guess is he was commenting on this:

"At this stage of a tournament you want to build your stack, but generally
avoid all-in confrontations with bigger stacks."

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 28 Dec 2008 09:22:31
From: Joe Long
Subject: Re: tournament question
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> On Dec 27 2008 12:17 PM, Joe Long wrote:
>
>> I'd be interested in hearing your critique of the specifics of what I
>> wrote. Seriously.
>
> My guess is he was commenting on this:
>
> "At this stage of a tournament you want to build your stack, but generally
> avoid all-in confrontations with bigger stacks."

Yes, I suspect the same. I had trouble writing that sentence. I was
afraid I would be misunderstood, but more explanation of it there would
have distracted from the rest of the post.

The comment was directed at a player who had pushed unwisely, with a
big-stack in the hand who had already called a raise.

I certainly don't advocate complete avoidance of bigger stacks, or
letting them run over you. Note the "generally" and "all-in"
qualifiers. OTOH I do believe that you need to play stacks that have
you covered with more caution than those that you have covered. There's
a saying about all-ins against bigger stacks that holds an important
truth: it works every time until the last time.

Sure, big stacks take advantage of smaller-stacks' fear of getting
knocked out by them. I do that when I'm the big stack. But it is not
an irrational fear. You need to build your stack, but if you get
eliminated you can't do that any more. It comes down to having a decent
read on the bigger stacks, and being judicious in when to take a stand
and when to avoid a confrontation. The situation being discussed was
NOT a time to initiate a confrontation, IMO.

Oh, one more thing. If Fell's retort was directed at that specific
sentence, he should have trimmed the post to make that clear.


--
Joe Long aka ChipRider
Somewhere on the Range


      
Date: 30 Dec 2008 09:52:53
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 28 2008 11:22 AM, Joe Long wrote:

> Oh, one more thing. If Fell's retort was directed at that specific
> sentence, he should have trimmed the post to make that clear.

Farson does not trim. He may shave, but he does not trim.

Farson

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Date: 26 Dec 2008 08:54:54
From: johnny_t
Subject: Re: tournament question
thedarkman wrote:
> I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> both cards and I'm out.
>
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.

Are the people callers or folders in this tournament? From your
comments it seems like the are callers.

You are taking a tremendous risk with 99 here, and it is not clear that
you will be getting alot of benefit here by winning.

Overall it doesn't sound like you have the patience for these sort of
things. And it may well be that people also understand this about you.

The more that they fold to you, the more that you can play this way, the
less, the less. Not only *can* but *must*. But at the end of the day
you should get the same amount of coin. Either from stealing or value.

But you really want them to fold to you.


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 08:45:46
From: Lute
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26, 10:54=A0am, thedarkman <A_Ba...@ABaron.Demon.Co.UK > wrote:

> I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> both cards and I'm out.
>
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.

You have two issues here:

First, you did not play "badly," given the necessarily limited
information any question poses. (It appears you were in an online
trny.) In low buy-in tournaments, players will bluff, even misread
their hands, and it becomes almost impossible to place them on a range
of hands. So you have to go with your trny position and pot odds.

For example, yesterday, I was in a similar situation. The fellow to
my right was bluffing hand after hand, going all in, and showing his
bluffs. Finally I had a medium pair and called him. He had a higher
pair, and took most of my stack.

Happens.

The second issue is whether you should play with an eye to making the
money, or going for broke with a chance at the big win.

I've tried it a number of ways, and given the kinds of tourney I play
online ($11 to $33 buy-in mostly), I've adopted the survival strategy
as the one that seems to work out best.

If I get below 20 BB, I start to look for chances to move all in, but
I need reasonably good pot odds. I assume that a big stack will
probably call me, so I can't make a raw bluff. As my stack decreases,
I decrease my hand-strength requirements for going all in. Rarely do
I have to blind all in, since any small pair, any suited ace, and any
connectors will do before it gets to having only one BB left.

However, above 20 BB, I pay close attention to my standing in the
trny. If I'm high enough up that I can probably fold into the money,
I will play very, very tight. It's in these situations that I
sometimes go all in with AA or KK preflop, and sometimes get
eliminated. But mostly I fold to any challenge.

One line of reasoning is that, in trnys, you usually can afford to
wait for good situations (pot odds or easy bluffs) before risking your
trny life, at least until you are close to the money. Most of my big
wins in trnys come when I have waited, and then get a run of good pots
that propel me up into the top few percent of remaining players. Such
runs will come often enough to make it worthwhile to employ the
"survival" strategy.

Mike Sexton wrote an article about this, that suggested a similar
idea. Just try to make the money first, and then take prudent chances
to climb the ladder.

Of course, you still have to go with your gut at times. When it
works, you're a hero. When it fails, you're waiting for the next trny
to start.

Sorry to make such an ill-prepared reply, but I'm sure you get the
basic idea here.
Adjust your risk assessments throughout the tourney, take prudent
risks, and hope for the best.


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 10:59:20
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: tournament question
On Dec 26 2008 11:45 AM, Lute wrote:

> On Dec 26, 10:54 am, thedarkman <A_Ba...@ABaron.Demon.Co.UK> wrote:
>
> > I'm playing a No Limit Hold 'Em tourney with 90 places paid. We're
> > about half way and I'm in about 40th place when a short stack makes a
> > big raise and Mr Big Stack calls. I have 9s; I figure I am probably
> > behind the short stack or 50-50 but I know these morons will call any
> > raise with ace rag so I whack it all in. The short stack has jacks,
> > and the moron with more chips than sense can't fold his KQ; he hits
> > both cards and I'm out.
> >
> > Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> > fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.
>
> You have two issues here:
>
> First, you did not play "badly," given the necessarily limited
> information any question poses. (It appears you were in an online
> trny.) In low buy-in tournaments, players will bluff, even misread
> their hands, and it becomes almost impossible to place them on a range
> of hands. So you have to go with your trny position and pot odds.
>
> For example, yesterday, I was in a similar situation. The fellow to
> my right was bluffing hand after hand, going all in, and showing his
> bluffs. Finally I had a medium pair and called him. He had a higher
> pair, and took most of my stack.
>
> Happens.
>
> The second issue is whether you should play with an eye to making the
> money, or going for broke with a chance at the big win.
>
> I've tried it a number of ways, and given the kinds of tourney I play
> online ($11 to $33 buy-in mostly), I've adopted the survival strategy
> as the one that seems to work out best.
>
> If I get below 20 BB, I start to look for chances to move all in, but
> I need reasonably good pot odds. I assume that a big stack will
> probably call me, so I can't make a raw bluff. As my stack decreases,
> I decrease my hand-strength requirements for going all in. Rarely do
> I have to blind all in, since any small pair, any suited ace, and any
> connectors will do before it gets to having only one BB left.
>
> However, above 20 BB, I pay close attention to my standing in the
> trny. If I'm high enough up that I can probably fold into the money,
> I will play very, very tight. It's in these situations that I
> sometimes go all in with AA or KK preflop, and sometimes get
> eliminated. But mostly I fold to any challenge.
>
> One line of reasoning is that, in trnys, you usually can afford to
> wait for good situations (pot odds or easy bluffs) before risking your
> trny life, at least until you are close to the money. Most of my big
> wins in trnys come when I have waited, and then get a run of good pots
> that propel me up into the top few percent of remaining players. Such
> runs will come often enough to make it worthwhile to employ the
> "survival" strategy.
>
> Mike Sexton wrote an article about this, that suggested a similar
> idea. Just try to make the money first, and then take prudent chances
> to climb the ladder.
>
> Of course, you still have to go with your gut at times. When it
> works, you're a hero. When it fails, you're waiting for the next trny
> to start.
>
> Sorry to make such an ill-prepared reply, but I'm sure you get the
> basic idea here.
> Adjust your risk assessments throughout the tourney, take prudent
> risks, and hope for the best.

I follow a similar strategy for survival when my stack shrinks. When my M
is around 5 I go into this mode. When I am going to push with low pairs,
Ax suited etc, I want to be first in the pot. If there is a raise or
limper's before me, in general I wait.

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Date: 26 Dec 2008 08:34:42
From: Aodhan
Subject: Re: tournament question
> Did I play so bad? I thought I would probably be able to make the
> fringes of the money but wanted to do better than that.

One player all in and another one calling right behind, you figure that AT
BEST you are 50/50 and you "whacked it all in". You don't say your stack
size relative to Mr. BS, blinds, etc., so a little hard to tell, but in
the end you risked everything on a coin flip (at best) and lost.

If your goal was just to make the money, horrible play. If you wanted to
win or do really well, not horrible, but probably not your best spot.

John

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