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Date: 04 Dec 2006 22:17:39
From: Old Wolf
Subject: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
PokerStars Game #7306921407: 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
2006/12/05 - 01:05:56 (ET)
Table 'Polydoros V' 8-max
Seat 1: SweeetCheeks ($19.90 in chips)
Seat 2: Old Wolf NZ ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 3: kango ($19 in chips)
Seat 4: AcesEightsA8 ($18.75 in chips)
Seat 6: smckdwn989 ($11.05 in chips)
Seat 7: psymon123 ($1.40 in chips)
Seat 8: duane397 ($16.75 in chips)
SweeetCheeks: posts the ante $0.05
Old Wolf NZ: posts the ante $0.05
kango: posts the ante $0.05
AcesEightsA8: posts the ante $0.05
smckdwn989: posts the ante $0.05
psymon123: posts the ante $0.05
duane397: posts the ante $0.05
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to SweeetCheeks [Jc]
Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s]
Dealt to kango [8h]
Dealt to AcesEightsA8 [Jh]
Dealt to smckdwn989 [Kc]
Dealt to psymon123 [6d]
Dealt to duane397 [2c]
duane397: brings-in low $0.25
SweeetCheeks: folds
Old Wolf NZ: calls $0.25
kango: folds
AcesEightsA8: folds
smckdwn989: folds
psymon123: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Tortelini joins the table at seat #5
duane397: calls $0.25
Old Wolf NZ: raises $0.50 to $1
psymon123: raises $0.35 to $1.35 and is all-in
duane397: calls $0.85
Old Wolf NZ: raises $0.15 to $1.50
duane397: calls $0.15
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s] [7h]
Dealt to psymon123 [6d] [3c]
Dealt to duane397 [2c] [6h]
Old Wolf NZ: bets $0.50
duane397: calls $0.50
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h] [Ac]
Dealt to psymon123 [6d 3c] [9h]
Dealt to duane397 [2c 6h] [Ah]
Old Wolf NZ: bets $1
duane397: calls $1
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h Ac] [9c]
Dealt to psymon123 [6d 3c 9h] [Tc]
Dealt to duane397 [2c 6h Ah] [5d]
Old Wolf NZ: checks
duane397: bets $1
Old Wolf NZ: calls $1
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h Ac 9c] [4s]
Old Wolf NZ: checks
duane397: bets $1
Old Wolf NZ: raises $1 to $2
duane397: raises $1 to $3
Old Wolf NZ: calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
duane397: shows [3s 2h 2c 6h Ah 5d 4h] (HI: a straight, Deuce to Six;
LO: 5,4,3,2,A)
Old Wolf NZ: mucks hand
duane397 collected $5.50 from side pot
duane397 collected $5.50 from side pot
psymon123: mucks hand
psymon123 is sitting out
duane397 collected $2.10 from main pot
duane397 collected $2.10 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $15.70 Main pot $4.20. Side pot $11.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 23:04:45
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 4 2006 11:17 PM, Old Wolf wrote:
> Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
You played it fine. The checkraise on 7th would have been bad against a
better opponent, but is very good against this type of opponent.
Well played.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 02:36:12
From: Omaholic
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 4 2006 11:04 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 4 2006 11:17 PM, Old Wolf wrote:
>
> > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
>
> You played it fine. The checkraise on 7th would have been bad against a
> better opponent, but is very good against this type of opponent.
>
> Well played.
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: www.fellknight.com
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
My thoughts exactly as I was reading this.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 09:14:57
From: Stephen Jacobs
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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"Old Wolf" <oldwolf@inspire.net.nz > wrote in message
news:1165299459.339211.256690@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
>
I disagree with the check-raise on 7th against ANY opponent. There's a
conflict here between the fundamental spirit of high-low poker (bet and
raise; no fear; variance is good) and the fundamental spirit of low-stakes
poker (play the odds; assume that any draw in the world can be out against
you; make 'em pay to draw but don't pay extra for the showdown). I'd
resolve that conflict in favor of the early aggression with your monster
starting hand, but with all the cards out I'd take the cheapest showdown
available.
Sixth street is a little unclear. I'd have bet it, and it turns out that
at that point the one pair still would have been high, but there's the
argument that sometimes it's best to play the appearance of the board. In
B/M play I might have tried to check-raise sixth against a typical opponent.
But against a loose shameless opponent, I still prefer the plain bet,
even in B/M.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 07:58:57
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 5 2006 7:14 AM, Stephen Jacobs wrote:
> "Old Wolf" <oldwolf@inspire.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:1165299459.339211.256690@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
> >
>
> I disagree with the check-raise on 7th against ANY opponent. There's a
> conflict here between the fundamental spirit of high-low poker (bet and
> raise; no fear; variance is good) and the fundamental spirit of low-stakes
> poker (play the odds; assume that any draw in the world can be out against
> you; make 'em pay to draw but don't pay extra for the showdown). I'd
> resolve that conflict in favor of the early aggression with your monster
> starting hand, but with all the cards out I'd take the cheapest showdown
> available.
The reason why is because this type of opponent (who I play often in HORSE
tournies, and occasionally lower limit Stud8 tournies), will bet out on
the river with a 76 or 86 low, and as little as one pair for high. I
think it is more likely that you have the scoop hand than he does, though
most of the pots will be chopped.
> Sixth street is a little unclear. I'd have bet it, and it turns out that
> at that point the one pair still would have been high, but there's the
> argument that sometimes it's best to play the appearance of the board. In
> B/M play I might have tried to check-raise sixth against a typical opponent.
> But against a loose shameless opponent, I still prefer the plain bet,
> even in B/M.
Really... I hate the bet on 6th myself, because any stud8 player with a
decent low hand or decent high hand with his good low draw will raise you
out of principle. Betting garners no information.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 01:16:21
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 4 2006 11:17 PM, Old Wolf wrote:
>
> > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
>
> You played it fine. The checkraise on 7th would have been bad against a
> better opponent, but is very good against this type of opponent.
Thanks ! You are a good teacher :)
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Date: 05 Dec 22:58:18
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 5 2006 1:17 AM, Old Wolf wrote:
> Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
>
Personally, I like the way you played it until 7th, when I just check-call. I
don't really think the quality of your opponent is very relevant on 7th. What
hands does a good player check that a bad player will bet there?
> PokerStars Game #7306921407: 7 Card Stud Hi/Lo Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
> 2006/12/05 - 01:05:56 (ET)
> Table 'Polydoros V' 8-max
> Seat 1: SweeetCheeks ($19.90 in chips)
> Seat 2: Old Wolf NZ ($24.65 in chips)
> Seat 3: kango ($19 in chips)
> Seat 4: AcesEightsA8 ($18.75 in chips)
> Seat 6: smckdwn989 ($11.05 in chips)
> Seat 7: psymon123 ($1.40 in chips)
> Seat 8: duane397 ($16.75 in chips)
> SweeetCheeks: posts the ante $0.05
> Old Wolf NZ: posts the ante $0.05
> kango: posts the ante $0.05
> AcesEightsA8: posts the ante $0.05
> smckdwn989: posts the ante $0.05
> psymon123: posts the ante $0.05
> duane397: posts the ante $0.05
> *** 3rd STREET ***
> Dealt to SweeetCheeks [Jc]
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s]
> Dealt to kango [8h]
> Dealt to AcesEightsA8 [Jh]
> Dealt to smckdwn989 [Kc]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c]
> duane397: brings-in low $0.25
> SweeetCheeks: folds
> Old Wolf NZ: calls $0.25
> kango: folds
> AcesEightsA8: folds
> smckdwn989: folds
> psymon123: raises $0.25 to $0.50
> Tortelini joins the table at seat #5
> duane397: calls $0.25
> Old Wolf NZ: raises $0.50 to $1
> psymon123: raises $0.35 to $1.35 and is all-in
> duane397: calls $0.85
> Old Wolf NZ: raises $0.15 to $1.50
> duane397: calls $0.15
> *** 4th STREET ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s] [7h]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d] [3c]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c] [6h]
> Old Wolf NZ: bets $0.50
> duane397: calls $0.50
> *** 5th STREET ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h] [Ac]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d 3c] [9h]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c 6h] [Ah]
> Old Wolf NZ: bets $1
> duane397: calls $1
> *** 6th STREET ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h Ac] [9c]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d 3c 9h] [Tc]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c 6h Ah] [5d]
> Old Wolf NZ: checks
> duane397: bets $1
> Old Wolf NZ: calls $1
> *** RIVER ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h Ac 9c] [4s]
> Old Wolf NZ: checks
> duane397: bets $1
> Old Wolf NZ: raises $1 to $2
> duane397: raises $1 to $3
> Old Wolf NZ: calls $1
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> duane397: shows [3s 2h 2c 6h Ah 5d 4h] (HI: a straight, Deuce to Six;
> LO: 5,4,3,2,A)
> Old Wolf NZ: mucks hand
> duane397 collected $5.50 from side pot
> duane397 collected $5.50 from side pot
> psymon123: mucks hand
> psymon123 is sitting out
> duane397 collected $2.10 from main pot
> duane397 collected $2.10 from main pot
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot $15.70 Main pot $4.20. Side pot $11.
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 18:43:24
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 5 2006 3:58 PM, steve1127 wrote:
> On Dec 5 2006 1:17 AM, Old Wolf wrote:
>
> > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
> >
> Personally, I like the way you played it until 7th, when I just check-call.
I
> don't really think the quality of your opponent is very relevant on 7th.
What
> hands does a good player check that a bad player will bet there?
As I said, naked 76 lows, naked 86 lows, and the same lows with one pair
(in addition to the same lows with two pair or trips or straights, and
concealed high hands. You are in good shape against all hands but the
concealed straights.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 06 Dec 16:35:29
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 5 2006 9:43 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 5 2006 3:58 PM, steve1127 wrote:
>
> > On Dec 5 2006 1:17 AM, Old Wolf wrote:
> >
> > > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
> > >
> > Personally, I like the way you played it until 7th, when I just check-call.
> I
> > don't really think the quality of your opponent is very relevant on 7th.
> What
> > hands does a good player check that a bad player will bet there?
>
> As I said, naked 76 lows, naked 86 lows, and the same lows with one pair
> (in addition to the same lows with two pair or trips or straights, and
> concealed high hands. You are in good shape against all hands but the
> concealed straights.
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
You do make the crying call if he three-bets you on the end, though, thinking he
could easily be doing that with a concealed high hand or a 65 low or something
without a high?
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 19:07:29
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 6 2006 9:35 AM, steve1127 wrote:
> On Dec 5 2006 9:43 PM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Dec 5 2006 3:58 PM, steve1127 wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 5 2006 1:17 AM, Old Wolf wrote:
> > >
> > > > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > > > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > > > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > > > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
> > > >
> > > Personally, I like the way you played it until 7th, when I just
check-call.
> > I
> > > don't really think the quality of your opponent is very relevant on 7th.
> > What
> > > hands does a good player check that a bad player will bet there?
> >
> > As I said, naked 76 lows, naked 86 lows, and the same lows with one pair
> > (in addition to the same lows with two pair or trips or straights, and
> > concealed high hands. You are in good shape against all hands but the
> > concealed straights.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
>
> You do make the crying call if he three-bets you on the end, though,
thinking he
> could easily be doing that with a concealed high hand or a 65 low or
something
> without a high?
Certainly.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 06 Dec 16:33:19
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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On Dec 5 2006 9:43 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 5 2006 3:58 PM, steve1127 wrote:
>
> > On Dec 5 2006 1:17 AM, Old Wolf wrote:
> >
> > > Was I right to put in all the bets on 3rd here , and keep betting
> > > out? I'd seen this guy chase with awful hands and suck out
> > > in the past, so I was pretty confident I was ahead, until 6th.
> > > Should I have bet on 6th anyway?
> > >
> > Personally, I like the way you played it until 7th, when I just check-call.
> I
> > don't really think the quality of your opponent is very relevant on 7th.
> What
> > hands does a good player check that a bad player will bet there?
>
> As I said, naked 76 lows, naked 86 lows, and the same lows with one pair
> (in addition to the same lows with two pair or trips or straights, and
> concealed high hands. You are in good shape against all hands but the
> concealed straights.
>
Right. Maybe in the future I should read all the posts before I ask such
questions.
> Fell
> --
> Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 08:35:11
From: Lottery Larry
Subject: Re: stud8 hand advice - loose opponent (bahh)
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> *** 3rd STREET ***
> Dealt to SweeetCheeks [Jc]
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s]
> Dealt to kango [8h]
> Dealt to AcesEightsA8 [Jh]
> Dealt to smckdwn989 [Kc]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c]
> duane397: brings-in low $0.25
> SweeetCheeks: folds
> Old Wolf NZ: calls $0.25
> kango: folds
> AcesEightsA8: folds
> smckdwn989: folds
> psymon123: raises $0.25 to $0.50
> Tortelini joins the table at seat #5
> duane397: calls $0.25
> Old Wolf NZ: raises $0.50 to $1
> psymon123: raises $0.35 to $1.35 and is all-in
> duane397: calls $0.85
> Old Wolf NZ: raises $0.15 to $1.50
> duane397: calls $0.15
Does reraising your wheel draw here for an extra 30% of a bet, over an
all-in, make sense? Or are they so loose and unobservant that they
won't get the message?
Or, did they get your "I'm isolating" message as you intended?
> *** 4th STREET ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s] [7h]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d] [3c]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c] [6h]
> Old Wolf NZ: bets $0.50
> duane397: calls $0.50
> *** 5th STREET ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h] [Ac]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d 3c] [9h]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c 6h] [Ah]
> Old Wolf NZ: bets $1
> duane397: calls $1
are you assuming he paired the case Ace here and the all-in doesn't
have one? Or that he has a worse one-card draw than you because he's
loose?
Plus, one of your 3's is gone.
> *** 6th STREET ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h Ac] [9c]
> Dealt to psymon123 [6d 3c 9h] [Tc]
> Dealt to duane397 [2c 6h Ah] [5d]
> Old Wolf NZ: checks
> duane397: bets $1
> Old Wolf NZ: calls $1
auto call loose player
> *** RIVER ***
> Dealt to Old Wolf NZ [Ad 2s 5s 7h Ac 9c] [4s]
> Old Wolf NZ: checks
> duane397: bets $1
> Old Wolf NZ: raises $1 to $2
> duane397: raises $1 to $3
> Old Wolf NZ: calls $1
auto call? is loose player a LAG, that you have a 7% chance that he's
bluff reraising after he bet on 6th?
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