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Main
Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:04:45
From: alan
Subject: rate my STUPIDITY
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Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
blinds.
When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
AA so I made the right move.
But back to this hand...
I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
third loose player folded.
The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
set, a straight is on the board.
First player checks.
I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
Third player Folds.
First player Calls.
The turn is a 6.
First player checks.
I bet $100.
First player calls.
I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
straight all along???
That player bets $135 going all in.
I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
the table I folded a set of kings.
The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
taken my chances.
***********
Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
bluff me because I fold too easily.
Comments? Tips?
Thanks.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 22:56:27
From: Douglas Dunn
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
Don't be so hard on yourself. I pretty much make the same size bets as
you in this situation. The consensus is that you should bet more on
the turn, and commit yourself to the pot which is pretty good advice as
the other player only had $235 left and the pot was $350ish?. However
I'm ok with your bet, if you are capable of laying down the river as
you did. This comes in to play more so when the stacks are even
deeper.
I'm going to give you some advice, or at least a pointer to something
you can actually work on and improve your game. Don't just check and
fold because a scare card came, have a real reason to do so. You
should be watching the player when the cards come off. If you haven't
picked up any physical tells, then talk to the guy. You'd be surprised
at just how much people are willing to give away at the friendly home
games. (it sounded like this was the type of game you were playing)
Being able to pick off a bluff is of course just as valuable as laying
down a hand that is beat. Get to know your players, and take advantage
of everything you can. Be rutheless at the poker table, then use their
money to take em out for beers later.
Doug
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Date: 02 Dec
From: Bryan Kimmes
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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On Dec 1 2006 2:04 PM, alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
He only had $135 more after this $100, you should have bet $235 on the turn.
Bryan
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 03:05:54
From: Tate and Lyle
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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10/10.
Fancy a game sometime :O)
When you have put that much money in you have to call, especially
as it is basically is remaining chips, he is pretty much comitted to the
pot anyway, and he is probably going to have to put it in when you
raised your standard $100 anyway so he may as well take the inititave
and hope you do something stupid, as you so kindly obliged.
And what is the point of the $100 on the flop exactly?
I guess is not as bad as the $100 on the turn I suppose.
But then even that is surpassed by you fold on the flop!!
Mind you there is hope for you, you did get one thing right - your
feeling that your were a total idiot!!
I mean FFS at the flop you fear you are beaten by a staight and so you
bet $100?....hello????
Still on the positve side you managed to convince the rest of the table you
were
a complete idiot and with lucky cards ended up making a profit. Although I
am surprised
they didn't force you to put both your nut flushs down :O
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:57:43
From:
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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XaQ Morphy wrote:
> 8.7/10
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
I disagree. Coupling the fold with the show, I think high-9, maybe 9.7
or 9.8.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:48:42
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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8.7/10
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 19:43:22
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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Folding was a mistake, but I dont hate showing the cards as much as
everyone else. First dont get in the habbit of showing cards often. It
gives away too much info. Second you need to know what to do after you
have shown your cards. Showing a big laydown like this will put ideas
into your opponents heads. They will become more aggresive. You must be
ready for this and have a plan of countering their aggression. IF you
show a big laydown pay attention to who tries to attack you. Use the
same bettting pattern as the laydown hand to trap them.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:52:31
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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On Dec 1, 12:04 pm, "alan" <mone...@aol.com > wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
No, he told you he had AA. Big difference.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
What third player? Anyways, we'll go with ~$150 in the pot.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
Was this first player the original raiser? He could have AT or T9 for
the straight, but more likely has a hand like AQ or two pair. I like
your bet here, but there's no need to panic. Even if he has the
straight, you have a redraw to a full house. If you're really lucky,
he's slowplaying a set of jacks.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
Here's your mistake. After your bet and his call on the flop, there's
~$350 in the pot. If you're really concerned that your opponent has
the straight (I doubt he would check the turn after you reraised
preflop and bet the flop, he should go all in with the straight at this
point), then you should check behind and hope the board pairs the
river. If I was in your shoes, and my opponent has less than a
pot-size bet remaining, I would go ahead and put him all-in.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
Big mistake. Not necessarily the fold itself, since he easily could
have had a ten with that flop, although you should have put him all-in
on the turn and the bluff wouldn't have had a chance to succeed.
Showing your laydown is terrible. I've laid down hands that I kicked
myself for later, but no one ever knew it except me. You're not
impressing anyone with your great reads, you're just begging to get run
over.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
It's good that it worked out for you in this instance, but you seem to
be way too susceptible to laying down anything short of the nuts.
Don't always fear the boogeyman.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:35:20
From: David Nicoson
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
I think you're tipping the waitress too much.
[SNIP]
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
I generally would raise a bit more there. Making this raise is OK if
you're willing to get off this hand if it doesn't improve.
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
OK
Now there's 250 in the pot and you have 350 left.
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
Lots of mediocre preflop hands like this board. You're likely up
against 2 pair, or a pair and a straight draw a lot. You need a plan
for the river now. If you bet the pot now you have only 100 left,
which you'll just have to pay off the straight with. That might push
out some of the weaker hands you'd like to call, though.
I think I like a push here.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
That's not enough, imho.
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
If you raised to 85 preflop, would you feel more confident that AT
would've folded? I think I would. The initial raiser was priced in
with whatever he was playing.
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
Yeah, I think he's right. If you bet more on the turn it makes this
decision clearer.
Follow is right this time. :-)
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Date: 01 Dec 22:41:43
From: Follow
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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On Dec 1 2006 3:35 PM, David Nicoson wrote:
> Follow is right this time. :-)
Pshaw! Sif I'm ever wrong... :P
Follow :)
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:11:27
From: WuzYoungOnceToo
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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On Dec 1, 4:02 pm, "alan" <mone...@aol.com > wrote:
>
> but, looking back, perhaps folding the set helped prompt those other
> bluffers who gave me bigger wins later?
Only on those few occasions when you're lucky enough to be holding the
goods in the right position and with the right timing. Over the long
haul, these are going to be more than offset by the pots they steal
from you all night.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 22:02:36
From: beerboy
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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9.2/10
--
" S m o k e w e e d e v e r y d a y "
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:02:19
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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thank you all for your advice.
I should have gone all in with the turn. looking back I realize that
had I lost i would not have lost a crippling amount.
I also acknowledge that I made a big mistake showing my set of kings.
Had I kept the cards face down, no one would have known.
but, looking back, perhaps folding the set helped prompt those other
bluffers who gave me bigger wins later?
again, thanks for the info.
I learned something.
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2006 12:04:45 -0800, "alan" <moneyla@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Oh wow, I missed this. Here you hit a great flop and you panicked.
> Don't do that.
>
> >That player bets $135 going all in.
> >I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> >the table I folded a set of kings.
>
> But never, ever, ever do this. This is a lot worse than folding them.
>
> Now, you're going to have these clowns bluffing at you all day and
> all night long, which means you should even be less willing to fold
> in the future. People remember someone folding top set.
>
> >The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> >I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
>
> Not when you were screwed by the board. But you were a total idiot
> to even be in a position to make a choice by the time the 9 fell.
>
> >My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> >taken my chances.
>
> No, you shouldn't have called on the river, because you should have been
> all in by the turn, at the very latest.
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Date: 01 Dec 22:15:28
From: Follow
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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On Dec 1 2006 3:02 PM, alan wrote:
> but, looking back, perhaps folding the set helped prompt those other
> bluffers who gave me bigger wins later?
That's a hidden bonus of giving your opponents info, although you have to keep
careful track of what they know, otherwise you've lost the value of it.
In a similar (though reversed) situation, I was in a tournament early and
bluffed off about 1/3 of my stack on an 8 high and was forced to show it down
where my opponent (directly to my right) won with two pair. Later in that same
tournament, remembering my play with the other hand, I mirrored it with an AA
hand, which he predictably called all the way to the river until we were both
all in. I took most of his stack when he had something like a K or Q high and
left him crippled with just a few hundred chips.
It's valuable from time to time to let your opponents know what you have, but
they should all have some sort of psychological goal in mind for the end
result. Don't submit to ego and let them know your play style without a goal in
mind.
Follow :)
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 16:51:45
From: Sng
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
Why is it that you need to show the table when you make big laydowns?
Perhaps previous "big laydowns" that you showed were responsible for
your opponent taking a shot at you at the end.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 16:05:37
From: James L. Hankins
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
"Sng" <sng@mountaincable.net > wrote in message
news:57034$4570a404$47131aa1$7244@MOUNTAINCABLE.NET...
> Why is it that you need to show the table when you make big laydowns?
>
> Perhaps previous "big laydowns" that you showed were responsible for your
> opponent taking a shot at you at the end.
That's what I would like to know. Did he make big laydowns earlier and show
them? If so, he's going to get his brains bashed in all night.
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 02:26:27
From: sng
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
James L. Hankins wrote:
> "Sng" <sng@mountaincable.net> wrote in message
> news:57034$4570a404$47131aa1$7244@MOUNTAINCABLE.NET...
>
>>Why is it that you need to show the table when you make big laydowns?
>>
>>Perhaps previous "big laydowns" that you showed were responsible for your
>>opponent taking a shot at you at the end.
>
>
>
> That's what I would like to know. Did he make big laydowns earlier and show
> them? If so, he's going to get his brains bashed in all night.
>
>
In the previous thread where the OP folded QQ, he told the table. Many
advised him here on RGP that letting the table know about your big
laydowns is not a good idea.
I guess he doesn't listen.
I think it's also more important to him that people think he's a great
player than winning money.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 16:28:57
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On 1 Dec 2006 12:04:45 -0800, "alan" <moneyla@aol.com > wrote:
Oh wow, I missed this. Here you hit a great flop and you panicked.
Don't do that.
>That player bets $135 going all in.
>I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
>the table I folded a set of kings.
But never, ever, ever do this. This is a lot worse than folding them.
Now, you're going to have these clowns bluffing at you all day and
all night long, which means you should even be less willing to fold
in the future. People remember someone folding top set.
>The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
Not when you were screwed by the board. But you were a total idiot
to even be in a position to make a choice by the time the 9 fell.
>My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
>taken my chances.
No, you shouldn't have called on the river, because you should have been
all in by the turn, at the very latest.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 16:25:15
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On 1 Dec 2006 12:04:45 -0800, "alan" <moneyla@aol.com > wrote:
>The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
>set, a straight is on the board.
>First player checks.
>I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
>Third player Folds.
>First player Calls.
If you get the idea ANYONE has got the slightest piece of this flop,
overbet the pot. Then jam if anyone comes over the top. From
loosey gooseys, you will get all kinds of absurd action out of straight
draws, middle pair, and other filth that should never have called
your raise.
Preferably bet enough you can jam the turn no matter what.
I go apeshit on a flop like this. Sometimes someone has broadway.
But usually not.
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Date: 01 Dec 21:02:40
From: Follow
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 1 2006 1:04 PM, alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
Bad fold, the pot odds compelled a call in this case, you had top set and the
guy had to be chasing for a long time to hit his open ender. Had he been
chasing a straight, he wouldn't have called the turn, though you could have
encouraged him a bit by betting higher on the turn. I think $200-$300 would
have been a good bet on the turn, or just put him all in on the turn. Maybe
$150 was your best shot, just enough to make him fold but also give him odds for
a check-down if he has a big hand. Of course at that point you're also
committed to the pot to call anything he does on the river.
This hand should have been a good payoff for you, or even if you lost the turn
payoff, you would have made some good money on it had he folded the turn.
Don't fear the monsters under the bed.
Follow :)
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:56:31
From:
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
Your $100 bet on the turn is bad. Up til then, I'd play about the same
way. I would probably pot it with potentially still two players left.
But on that flop preflop action, I would feel that there would be a
good chance that you may be up against AK, AQ, or lower set. There is
no way in hell I'm putting someone on AT here given the calling of a
reraise. I may feel squimish about 9Ts, but I would take my chances.
So, with $350 in the pot on a harmless turn, I would push all in. And
yes, your fold on the river is pretty bad given the 5:1 odds. And as
already stated, showing your hand here is pretty terrible.
|
| |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:31:16
From: WuzYoungOnceToo
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 1, 2:04 pm, "alan" <mone...@aol.com > wrote:
>
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
My first recommendation is to be a little clearer in your descriptions
of the action. For instance, "not in a blind" is an unnecessarily
vague way to describe position, which is generally a critical component
of the action. We can work out relative positions of the flop-forward
players from the rest of the story, but we shouldn't have to. And did
your two callers include the original raiser? Try reading through some
of the free-form hand descriptions given by regular posters here and
you'll pick up some valuable tips in this area.
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
I'd be a little concerned, but I think panic is an unhelpful
over-reaction.
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
Since he doesn't raise here I'd be thinking one of three things (based
entirely on your use of the "loose" label and assumptions about the
quality of play typically encountered at this level):
1) He's holding TT and is chasing a straight or a set.
2) He's holding Ax and is foolishly chasing a gut-shot.
3) He's holding AJ and is going for a fancy trap on the river. You see
this crap all the time.
4) He's holding QQ/JJ and is going for said trap...although at his own
peril in this instance.
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
Obviously all of my suspicions would have been wrong here.
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
I guess that depends on how confident you were that he had you beat.
Obviously if you *were* confident then your read was way off. But,
that aside, if you were less than 80% confident that you were right
then this was a bad fold given the odds you were getting to call.
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
Given that your description of the hand suggests you weren't really
confident in your read (you were mostly fearful of what he *could*
have, rather than analytical about what he *likely* had) I think your
son was right.
|
| |
Date: 01 Dec 20:30:13
From: CHarrison100
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
I am no expert and most people here are really helping me find holes in my game
but I am going to say something anyway.
He put 135 into a ~570 pot you had ~250 left with top set. You would be getting
about 5:1 and still had ~115 or ~23BB left if you lost. I would have called
here.
Showing was a big mistake. You must have been pushed off a lot of hands for the
other people at the table to make a comment like this. You should never show
your cards unless they pay to see them. Gives them too much information.
On Dec 1 2006 3:04 PM, alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 21:15:32
From: JG
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2006 12:04:45 -0800, "alan" <moneyla@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >The flop comes JQK rainbow.
>
> If you get the idea ANYONE has got the slightest piece of this flop,
> overbet the pot. Then jam if anyone comes over the top. From
> loosey gooseys, you will get all kinds of absurd action out of straight
> draws, middle pair, and other filth that should never have called
> your raise.
I like this advice a lot. This is a coordinated board, with all high
cards, which means someone has likely got a piece of it. Do not bother
slowplaying, or stringing people along with average bets. There's no
need to. Build the pot right now with a big bet, with the expectation
that there's a good chance of getting action. I would be looking for
ways to get it all-in, either on the flop, if possible, or on the turn.
You have a decent redraw in the event anyone flopped a real monster.
If the flop were K72, or something similar, then I would tend to bet
smaller.
JG
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 20:40:03
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 2 2006 8:29 PM, alan wrote:
>
> > I concede being an idiot. I am not a liar. Email me and I will tell
> > you who I am. Then you can say you're sorry.
>
> wow.. I couldn't care if you were Bill fucking Gates. The fact is that
> your opponent only told you he had AA, not that he actually had them.
>
> Fell
There are three issues here, all centering on one issue.
What is really tough to believe is that a table full of NL players
would let him "cash out his stacks" and put the bills in his pocket and
declare himself all-in for a few remaining chips. Even if the dealer
were drunk and the floorman was off getting a blowjob, players get
NASTY about stuff like that.
Secondly, the brilliant maneuver of showing the laydown here only looks
good if you get two really great hands later and people try to steal
from you. That just sounds fucking contrived. But I wouldn't doubt him
if it weren't for the incident above. I mean, THIS could happen. It
just isn't something you could plan on unless you were going to be
playing against the same players week after week. Against the usual
transient crowd in a casino, it wold not be a good idea because no one
is going to remember it the next time you get the nut flush, unless you
are very fortunate.
He BELIEVES that the guy had Aces, probably because the guy flattered
him about how "tight" he is. So, I wouldn't call that lying, just
naivete. Stating :"He had Aces" as if it were a fact is perhops merely
careless phrasing. Then he happens to get the nuts TWICE after making
this laydown and people try to steal from him. I guess that has to
happen to SOMEBODY sometime. However, it isn't likely.
So, I am going to email this guy as he suggested. If that first story
weren't so damn unlikely, I would not have detected this pattern of
ego-protection.
Will in New Haven
--
"Start giving away points in anything and you'll find out some day that
you've given away too many" John K. Kinnison
> --
> Website: www.fellknight.com
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:29:36
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
I concede being an idiot. I am not a liar. Email me and I will tell
you who I am. Then you can say you're sorry.
Will in New Haven wrote:
> alan wrote:
> > Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> > blinds.
> >
> > When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> > hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
> >
> > the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
> >
> > I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> > after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> > severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> > AA so I made the right move.
>
> No. He SAID he had AA and you believed him. He was not even the person
> who bet, he folded too. You should not say "the other player had AA"
> when what you mean is that you are a credulous moron. His play was
> unbelievable with AA. He limped and then flat-called a raise. But you
> believed he had AA because he flattered you.
>
> >
> > But back to this hand...
> >
> > I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> > in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> > reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> > third loose player folded.
> >
> > The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> > set, a straight is on the board.
> >
> > First player checks.
> > I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> > Third player Folds.
> > First player Calls.
>
> If he had a draw, you priced him in. If he has the inclination to rob
> you, you have invited him to do so.
>
> >
> > The turn is a 6.
> >
> > First player checks.
> > I bet $100.
> > First player calls.
> >
> > I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
> >
> > The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> > straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> > straight all along???
> >
> > That player bets $135 going all in.
> > I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> > the table I folded a set of kings.
> > The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> > I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
>
> Yes, you were. You were ESPECIALLY an idiot showing your hand. If you
> want recognition more than money, do something useful for society.
> Poker is not about winning respect, it's about winning money.
>
> > My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> > taken my chances.
> >
>
> Someone in your family must have been smart or their is nothing to
> heredity. You, sir, are an idiiot.
>
> And you are a liar. Your post about "cashing out my racks" and going
> all-in with your remaining chips stinks and every casino dealer or
> floorperson I know thinks that it must have been a lie. The casino
> where you said you did that doesn't allow it either.
>
>
>
> >
> > Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> > had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> > As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> > bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> It think you probably went home broke. In order for that strategy,
> showing a hand that you have laid down a big hand, can help you is if
> you got some really great hands later against the same assortment of
> people. That could happen but it isn't all that likely. On the other
> hand, the possibility of disbelieving anything you write is really much
> higher.
> >
> > Comments? Tips?
>
> shut up. stay home
>
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> "I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world
> to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but
> unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and
> thank Heaven He has put it in my power."
> -Writings of Thomas Paine 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)
|
| | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:58:25
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 2 2006 8:29 PM, alan wrote:
> I concede being an idiot. I am not a liar. Email me and I will tell
> you who I am. Then you can say you're sorry.
wow.. I couldn't care if you were Bill fucking Gates. The fact is that
your opponent only told you he had AA, not that he actually had them.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:19:37
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
Let me respond to the showing/laydown comments.
I am a very tight player, and play very few hands.
No, I didnt show any previous laydowns.
James L. Hankins wrote:
> "Sng" <sng@mountaincable.net> wrote in message
> news:57034$4570a404$47131aa1$7244@MOUNTAINCABLE.NET...
> > Why is it that you need to show the table when you make big laydowns?
> >
> > Perhaps previous "big laydowns" that you showed were responsible for your
> > opponent taking a shot at you at the end.
>
>
> That's what I would like to know. Did he make big laydowns earlier and show
> them? If so, he's going to get his brains bashed in all night.
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:16:32
From: thenutlow
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
River isn't terrible I guess, of course all the experts on here will
tell you how it is a "clear" call because they know you would have won
The real mistake is the turn, your flop bet sets the turn play up
nicely. Just shovel it in on the turn and be happy.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:30:43
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 2 2006 8:16 PM, thenutlow wrote:
> River isn't terrible I guess, of course all the experts on here will
> tell you how it is a "clear" call because they know you would have won
Indeed. The only reason I gave it a 9/10 on the stupidity meter rather
than 10/10 is because the river play is not nearly as terrible as others
make it sound. The call is marginally +EV, at best. The turn action and
showing of the laydown are what makes the hand so damned stupid.
> The real mistake is the turn, your flop bet sets the turn play up
> nicely. Just shovel it in on the turn and be happy.
Agreed.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:06:45
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
Stupidity rating: 9/10.
Your flop bet was ok (I would have bet $125), but only because you are
supposed to bet the rest of your stack on the turn. You failed to do so,
and you paid the price.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
______________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 16:49:24
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
James L. Hankins wrote:
> "Sng" <sng@mountaincable.net> wrote in message
> news:57034$4570a404$47131aa1$7244@MOUNTAINCABLE.NET...
> > Why is it that you need to show the table when you make big laydowns?
> >
> > Perhaps previous "big laydowns" that you showed were responsible for your
> > opponent taking a shot at you at the end.
>
>
> That's what I would like to know. Did he make big laydowns earlier and show
> them? If so, he's going to get his brains bashed in all night.
If he knew in advance that he was going to get two nut flushes later in
the evening and have people bluff into him, this might have actually
been profitable.
Since knowing this was impossible and since I don't believe a word he
types and I don't know why anyone else does, I think he probably went
home broke.
This is not an "am I an idiot" thread; it is a "look at me, I'm so
clever," thread and I think it is all a work of fiction.
Also, "advertising" this way means that you have to call with a good
deal less than the nuts on occasion because you KNOW that they will be
taking shots.
Will in New Haven
--
"Start giving away points in anything and you'll find out some day that
you've given away too many" John K. Kinnison
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 16:42:07
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
No. He SAID he had AA and you believed him. He was not even the person
who bet, he folded too. You should not say "the other player had AA"
when what you mean is that you are a credulous moron. His play was
unbelievable with AA. He limped and then flat-called a raise. But you
believed he had AA because he flattered you.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
If he had a draw, you priced him in. If he has the inclination to rob
you, you have invited him to do so.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
Yes, you were. You were ESPECIALLY an idiot showing your hand. If you
want recognition more than money, do something useful for society.
Poker is not about winning respect, it's about winning money.
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
Someone in your family must have been smart or their is nothing to
heredity. You, sir, are an idiiot.
And you are a liar. Your post about "cashing out my racks" and going
all-in with your remaining chips stinks and every casino dealer or
floorperson I know thinks that it must have been a lie. The casino
where you said you did that doesn't allow it either.
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
It think you probably went home broke. In order for that strategy,
showing a hand that you have laid down a big hand, can help you is if
you got some really great hands later against the same assortment of
people. That could happen but it isn't all that likely. On the other
hand, the possibility of disbelieving anything you write is really much
higher.
>
> Comments? Tips?
shut up. stay home
>
> Thanks.
Will in New Haven
--
"I am thus far a Quaker, that I would gladly argue with all the world
to lay aside the use of arms and settle matters by negotiation, but
unless the whole will, the matter ends, and I take up my musket and
thank Heaven He has put it in my power."
-Writings of Thomas Paine 56 (M. Conway ed. 1894)
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 13:33:58
From: ACS
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
Considering that I openly winced while reading your river action, I would
guess a 9/10.
On Dec 1 2006 4:04 PM, alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 07:01:00
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
alan wrote:
> Will in New Haven: I never got your email. So, I'm goin to save you
> the trouble.
>
> My name is Alan Mendelson.
>
> Google me. Check my credibility.
>
> I stand by what I said -- everything I said -- in this newsgroup.
>
> Further, I've only been playing live cash games in brick and mortar
> casinios for a couple of months. All incidents are true.
>
> I believed the tournament player who told me he had AA when he went all
> in; I finished second in that tournament.
>
> I did put the cash away in my pockets and went "all in" with the
> remaining chips; no one questioned it at the table. Obviously it was
> an oversight of the dealer and the other players, and I didn't know
> better-- I was "new" at playing cash games.
I realize that you didn't know better. It isn't as if it is an mmoral
act, it's just against the rules. However, you must have been playing
at a table full of Martians. I have heard an almost equally
unbelievable incident from someone who was on the rail in a fairly
high-stakes LHE game out there: A guy kept his cards without putting in
any chips ofter three bets on the turn. He just said "call" and started
fiddling with his chips. When the action went past him he must have
decided to save around a few hundred or he just forgot to put the chips
into the pot. The dealer evidently didn't notice when he pulled the
chips into the middle. My friend, the observer, said that "no harm was
done" as the guy must have missed his draw and folded on the river. All
I can say is that both stories seem impossible and they are both from
California. Hmmm.
>
> I concede I was stupid showing my set of kings.
It only works if you are going to get the nuts later. Like so many
strategies that depend on getting a hand later, it leads to many more
situations where you wished you hadn't done it.
> Ironically, last night
> at HPC my son made the same mistake of showing his folded set of tens
> after he was forced out of a hand that would have won had he stayed in
> the pot-- and we were able to discuss the error, and I thank you all
> for the info you've given me about such a mistake.
>
> Phyllis Caro knows me well, and I invite any of you to contact her.
Giving that name solidifies your standing with me more than anything I
would find googling you on the internet.
>
> Now, a question. Why would it matter to any of you if ANYONE would
> ever make up false information here? What would anyone have to gain by
> it? Why would it ruffle your feathers?
It annoys me but I don't know precisely why. I do know that someone
making up a story and admitting it was made up to illustrate some point
of poker strategy or just for amusement wouldn't bother me one bit.
> I care only because my email address which I use on this group happens
> to be well known among certain players in Vegas and readers of certain
> gaming publications.
>
> Otherwise, this is an anonymous news group.
I am far from anonymous. Although Branford is a suburb of New Haven,
"Will in New Haven" was precisely accurate when I started using it and
it describes my location fairly well even today. My email address is my
business addy. People thought they should killfile all .yahoo addys and
some of them asked me to change mine.
If anyone wants to find me on the weekend of the 15th, I will be in the
poker room at the Venetian in Las Vegas, although I MIGHT try some
nudie bars as my nephew and my brother will be along and they think
that's fun.
Will in New Haven
--
Point up and thumb on the blade
> Best of luck. Alan
> Will in New Haven wrote:
> > FellKnight wrote:
> > > On Dec 2 2006 8:29 PM, alan wrote:
> > >
> > > > I concede being an idiot. I am not a liar. Email me and I will tell
> > > > you who I am. Then you can say you're sorry.
> > >
> > > wow.. I couldn't care if you were Bill fucking Gates. The fact is that
> > > your opponent only told you he had AA, not that he actually had them.
> > >
> > > Fell
> >
> > There are three issues here, all centering on one issue.
> >
> > What is really tough to believe is that a table full of NL players
> > would let him "cash out his stacks" and put the bills in his pocket and
> > declare himself all-in for a few remaining chips. Even if the dealer
> > were drunk and the floorman was off getting a blowjob, players get
> > NASTY about stuff like that.
> >
> > Secondly, the brilliant maneuver of showing the laydown here only looks
> > good if you get two really great hands later and people try to steal
> > from you. That just sounds fucking contrived. But I wouldn't doubt him
> > if it weren't for the incident above. I mean, THIS could happen. It
> > just isn't something you could plan on unless you were going to be
> > playing against the same players week after week. Against the usual
> > transient crowd in a casino, it wold not be a good idea because no one
> > is going to remember it the next time you get the nut flush, unless you
> > are very fortunate.
> >
> > He BELIEVES that the guy had Aces, probably because the guy flattered
> > him about how "tight" he is. So, I wouldn't call that lying, just
> > naivete. Stating :"He had Aces" as if it were a fact is perhops merely
> > careless phrasing. Then he happens to get the nuts TWICE after making
> > this laydown and people try to steal from him. I guess that has to
> > happen to SOMEBODY sometime. However, it isn't likely.
> >
> > So, I am going to email this guy as he suggested. If that first story
> > weren't so damn unlikely, I would not have detected this pattern of
> > ego-protection.
> >
> > Will in New Haven
> >
> > --
> >
> > "Start giving away points in anything and you'll find out some day that
> > you've given away too many" John K. Kinnison
> > > --
> > > Website: www.fellknight.com
> > > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 04:31:11
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
Will in New Haven: I never got your email. So, I'm goin to save you
the trouble.
My name is Alan Mendelson.
Google me. Check my credibility.
I stand by what I said -- everything I said -- in this newsgroup.
Further, I've only been playing live cash games in brick and mortar
casinios for a couple of months. All incidents are true.
I believed the tournament player who told me he had AA when he went all
in; I finished second in that tournament.
I did put the cash away in my pockets and went "all in" with the
remaining chips; no one questioned it at the table. Obviously it was
an oversight of the dealer and the other players, and I didn't know
better-- I was "new" at playing cash games.
I concede I was stupid showing my set of kings. Ironically, last night
at HPC my son made the same mistake of showing his folded set of tens
after he was forced out of a hand that would have won had he stayed in
the pot-- and we were able to discuss the error, and I thank you all
for the info you've given me about such a mistake.
Phyllis Caro knows me well, and I invite any of you to contact her.
Now, a question. Why would it matter to any of you if ANYONE would
ever make up false information here? What would anyone have to gain by
it? Why would it ruffle your feathers?
I care only because my email address which I use on this group happens
to be well known among certain players in Vegas and readers of certain
gaming publications.
Otherwise, this is an anonymous news group.
Best of luck. Alan
Will in New Haven wrote:
> FellKnight wrote:
> > On Dec 2 2006 8:29 PM, alan wrote:
> >
> > > I concede being an idiot. I am not a liar. Email me and I will tell
> > > you who I am. Then you can say you're sorry.
> >
> > wow.. I couldn't care if you were Bill fucking Gates. The fact is that
> > your opponent only told you he had AA, not that he actually had them.
> >
> > Fell
>
> There are three issues here, all centering on one issue.
>
> What is really tough to believe is that a table full of NL players
> would let him "cash out his stacks" and put the bills in his pocket and
> declare himself all-in for a few remaining chips. Even if the dealer
> were drunk and the floorman was off getting a blowjob, players get
> NASTY about stuff like that.
>
> Secondly, the brilliant maneuver of showing the laydown here only looks
> good if you get two really great hands later and people try to steal
> from you. That just sounds fucking contrived. But I wouldn't doubt him
> if it weren't for the incident above. I mean, THIS could happen. It
> just isn't something you could plan on unless you were going to be
> playing against the same players week after week. Against the usual
> transient crowd in a casino, it wold not be a good idea because no one
> is going to remember it the next time you get the nut flush, unless you
> are very fortunate.
>
> He BELIEVES that the guy had Aces, probably because the guy flattered
> him about how "tight" he is. So, I wouldn't call that lying, just
> naivete. Stating :"He had Aces" as if it were a fact is perhops merely
> careless phrasing. Then he happens to get the nuts TWICE after making
> this laydown and people try to steal from him. I guess that has to
> happen to SOMEBODY sometime. However, it isn't likely.
>
> So, I am going to email this guy as he suggested. If that first story
> weren't so damn unlikely, I would not have detected this pattern of
> ego-protection.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> "Start giving away points in anything and you'll find out some day that
> you've given away too many" John K. Kinnison
> > --
> > Website: www.fellknight.com
> > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 11:45:35
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 3 2006 5:31 AM, alan wrote:
> Will in New Haven: I never got your email. So, I'm goin to save you
> the trouble.
>
> My name is Alan Mendelson.
>
> Google me. Check my credibility.
>
> I stand by what I said -- everything I said -- in this newsgroup.
Dear Mr Mendelson,
I believe that you believe that your opponent had Aces when you folded
your Queens postflop, but the fact remains that you never saw the Aces,
but simply relied on your opponent's honesty that that was, in fact, what
he had.
Since you stand by everything you have said in this newsgroup, this is not
something you can deny. Allow me to quote your post:
"After the table broke and we went on our way to other tourney tables, I
asked the player on my right what he was holding when he went all in.
He said AA -- and he was telling me the truth. He then commented how
"right" I was to fold, and that reinforced his view of my very tight
play."
You have a very large ego, Mr. Mendelson (something that, I will concede,
I have in common with you). You should approach this newsgroups with more
than a couple of grains of salt. There is lots of great advice here, for
those willing to listen.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
---
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 17:07:39
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
alan wrote:
> FellKnight wrote: "There is lots of great advice here, for
> those willing to listen."
>
> Yes, there is a lot of good advice here, and I haven't disputed any of
> it. I appreciate the info.
>
> What I have disputed are the attacks on my credibility. Specifically,
> the allegation that I am a liar.
>
> I am not a liar.
>
> And, you can call me "Alan."
>
> By the way, there was a rule change at Hollywood a couple of days ago.
> No longer are $100 bills allowed to be played. Only chips. The rule
> change came about after a player was observed to take $100 bills out of
> his pocket and added to his stack.
>
> This also means no more buying chips from other players; all chips must
> be bought from the chip runners. Again, this is meant to avoid
> situations where players might add to their stacks.
That's usually the rule in England, I understand. Cash simply does not
play. It also helps you judge, wiithout asking, how much your opponent
has in his or her stack, in case you are thinking about implied odds.
It also makes it easier to prevent rat-holing, whether without ill
intent or done with the knowledge that it is illegal.
Adding to your stack when you realize that you have the nuts is MUCH
worse than rat-holing but I have never seen anyone doing it, while
rat-holing is attempted fairly often. Of course, many of the people who
do it are not aware that there is a rule against it. I don't think
anyone innocently slips a couple of bills into his stack when he flops
top set.
I noticed someone trying to take a bill OFF the table in the middle of
a hand because he wanted to call all-in with a draw and avoid losing
all his money. THAT was not what you did and was clearly not innocent
of ill intent. He was forced to put the bill into the pot but he would
have won the pot had his card come. It didn't. I am still not sure that
the ruling was correct.
BTW: If you had responded the first time I doubted your word, I could
have been convinced that you were telling the truth lot earlier,
unlikely as the incident was. Sorry that I stayed on your case but you
sure didn't seem to want to discuss it.
Will in New Haven
--
"Pot-Limit has more thinking involved; young people can't think"
Norm Chad
>
>
> FellKnight wrote:
> > On Dec 3 2006 5:31 AM, alan wrote:
> >
> > > Will in New Haven: I never got your email. So, I'm goin to save you
> > > the trouble.
> > >
> > > My name is Alan Mendelson.
> > >
> > > Google me. Check my credibility.
> > >
> > > I stand by what I said -- everything I said -- in this newsgroup.
> >
> > Dear Mr Mendelson,
> >
> > I believe that you believe that your opponent had Aces when you folded
> > your Queens postflop, but the fact remains that you never saw the Aces,
> > but simply relied on your opponent's honesty that that was, in fact, what
> > he had.
> >
> > Since you stand by everything you have said in this newsgroup, this is not
> > something you can deny. Allow me to quote your post:
> >
> > "After the table broke and we went on our way to other tourney tables, I
> > asked the player on my right what he was holding when he went all in.
> > He said AA -- and he was telling me the truth. He then commented how
> > "right" I was to fold, and that reinforced his view of my very tight
> > play."
> >
> > You have a very large ego, Mr. Mendelson (something that, I will concede,
> > I have in common with you). You should approach this newsgroups with more
> > than a couple of grains of salt. There is lots of great advice here, for
> > those willing to listen.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Website: www.fellknight.com
> > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
> >
> > ---
> > * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 14:37:13
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
FellKnight wrote: "There is lots of great advice here, for
those willing to listen."
Yes, there is a lot of good advice here, and I haven't disputed any of
it. I appreciate the info.
What I have disputed are the attacks on my credibility. Specifically,
the allegation that I am a liar.
I am not a liar.
And, you can call me "Alan."
By the way, there was a rule change at Hollywood a couple of days ago.
No longer are $100 bills allowed to be played. Only chips. The rule
change came about after a player was observed to take $100 bills out of
his pocket and added to his stack.
This also means no more buying chips from other players; all chips must
be bought from the chip runners. Again, this is meant to avoid
situations where players might add to their stacks.
FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 3 2006 5:31 AM, alan wrote:
>
> > Will in New Haven: I never got your email. So, I'm goin to save you
> > the trouble.
> >
> > My name is Alan Mendelson.
> >
> > Google me. Check my credibility.
> >
> > I stand by what I said -- everything I said -- in this newsgroup.
>
> Dear Mr Mendelson,
>
> I believe that you believe that your opponent had Aces when you folded
> your Queens postflop, but the fact remains that you never saw the Aces,
> but simply relied on your opponent's honesty that that was, in fact, what
> he had.
>
> Since you stand by everything you have said in this newsgroup, this is not
> something you can deny. Allow me to quote your post:
>
> "After the table broke and we went on our way to other tourney tables, I
> asked the player on my right what he was holding when he went all in.
> He said AA -- and he was telling me the truth. He then commented how
> "right" I was to fold, and that reinforced his view of my very tight
> play."
>
> You have a very large ego, Mr. Mendelson (something that, I will concede,
> I have in common with you). You should approach this newsgroups with more
> than a couple of grains of salt. There is lots of great advice here, for
> those willing to listen.
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: www.fellknight.com
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
>
> ---
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:26:12
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
> Yes, there is a lot of good advice here, and I haven't disputed any of
> it.
L
O
L
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:25:46
From: Maverick
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
You are a fricken moron who should be thrown into a prison for the sole
purpose of being sodomized by a sweating bubba until your ass bleeds.
You wait all day to get QQ and then you bet it like a pussy...it's no
wonder that you should be used as a pussy in jail.
alan wrote:
> Yesterday I am playing a $200 buy-in, no limit hold em with $5 and $3
> blinds.
>
> When this hand occurred, I have bought in for $600, but Ive won some
> hands since my last buy-in so I now have about $500.
>
> the table has three loose players, the rest are tight.
>
> I am very tight. Recently I told you how I folded QQ in a tourney
> after the flop fearing a flush or higher pair or set-- and I was
> severely criticized here for folding. Turns out, the other player had
> AA so I made the right move.
>
> But back to this hand...
>
> I have about $500 and am dealt KK. I am not in a blind. A player not
> in a blind raises to $20 which is pretty standard for this table. I
> reraise to $50. I get two callers -- both are loose players. The
> third loose player folded.
>
> The flop comes JQK rainbow. Immediately I panic. While I flopped a
> set, a straight is on the board.
>
> First player checks.
> I am the second player. My action-- I bet $100.
> Third player Folds.
> First player Calls.
>
> The turn is a 6.
>
> First player checks.
> I bet $100.
> First player calls.
>
> I am still a nervous camper-- happy with my set but fearing a straight.
>
> The river is a 9. A disaster card for me. Anyone with a 10 has a
> straight. Does the player to my right have a ten, or did he have a
> straight all along???
>
> That player bets $135 going all in.
> I look at the board, 9-J-Q-K-6 and fold. I turn up my cards to show
> the table I folded a set of kings.
> The player to my right says, I stole the pot. He turns over AQ.
>
> I feel like a total idiot. Was I ??
> My son says with that much money in the pot, I should have called and
> taken my chances.
>
> ***********
>
> Later in the game, two players try to bluff me out of big pots, but I
> had Ace high flushes and win both hands. I left for the day up $580.
> As I left one of the other players said to me that the others tried to
> bluff me because I fold too easily.
>
> Comments? Tips?
>
> Thanks.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 20:36:16
From: beerboy
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
In news:1165177546.315868.305090@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com,
Maverick <bretroth@gmail.com > typed:
|
| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 00:02:45
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
thanks Michael.
When I had QQ I had about 17,500 in chips.
The big blind was 2,000. the ante was 300.
the player with AJ bet 15,000.
I could have called the 15,000 but that would have left me 2,500 and
that, obviously, would have left me crippled and wiped out soon by
ante's and the blinds.
Yes, I reasoned, QQ was a good shot.
But there were three short stacks at my table, and I went up against
the big stack.
I dont know what the stacks were like at the other table.
But what I was thinking was that if I held off betting the QQ I could
possibly survive at least three other players.
thanks for the comments.
phlash74 wrote:
> On Dec 3, 11:22 pm, "alan" <mone...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I think we have setlled all of the personal problems now. I hope we
> > can continue with positive discussions.
> >
> > I enjoy and appreciate the info I learn here. As Ive said several
> > times, Im new to playing poker. Heck, the first time I played in a
> > poker game (tourney) was less than a year ago, and my first "cash" game
> > was only a couple of months ago.
> >
> > I hope everyone will stick to facts and information and keep their
> > insults and allegations to themselves, and leave them off of the
> > newsgroup.
> >
> > thanks again.
> >
> > by the way, in a tournament tonight at Crystal Park near Los Angeles,
> > with only 16 players remaining (top 7 paid) I was dealt QQ. I was on
> > the button. The player under the gun bet 15,000 and everyone else
> > folded except me. I went all-in with my QQ. The other player called
> > (he had me covered easily).
> >
> > We turned over our cards. He had AJ offsuit.
> >
> > On the flop came an ace. I was out the door.
> >
> > And damn, I was thinking about folding my QQ.
> >
> > Damn. I play great, tight poker for four hours and lose it all with
> > QQ.
> >
>
>
> Here's your problem in a nutshell. You made the right decision, but
> you're questioning it because of a bad result. You don't say how much
> you had in your stack or what the blinds were, but I'm guessing you
> were somewhat shortstacked by the mention that your opponent had you
> covered easily. When you're shortstacked in a tourney, and nowhere
> near the bubble (9 eliminations out of 16 players to go), you shouldn't
> THINK about folding QQ. Hell, in that situation, you shouldn't think
> about folding AQ. If your opponent has AA or KK, tough break. If he
> has AK and wins the race, tough break. If he has a weaker ace and gets
> lucky, tough break. The important thing is that you make the right
> decision and not get caught up in the result. The chips you could have
> won by doubling up in this situation would have given you a much better
> chance to make the money and/or win the tournament than you would have
> had by folding QQ here. There's a lot of luck involved in poker
> tournaments, but you have to put yourself in position to take advantage
> of the good luck you do receive.
>
> Michael
|
| | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 08:10:27
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 4 2006 1:02 AM, alan wrote:
> thanks Michael.
>
> When I had QQ I had about 17,500 in chips.
>
> The big blind was 2,000. the ante was 300.
>
> the player with AJ bet 15,000.
>
> I could have called the 15,000 but that would have left me 2,500 and
> that, obviously, would have left me crippled and wiped out soon by
> ante's and the blinds.
>
> Yes, I reasoned, QQ was a good shot.
>
> But there were three short stacks at my table, and I went up against
> the big stack.
>
> I dont know what the stacks were like at the other table.
>
> But what I was thinking was that if I held off betting the QQ I could
> possibly survive at least three other players.
>
> thanks for the comments.
Michael is again correct. There is no call to be folding any semi-decent
hand there. The goal in a tourney (probably especially at HP), is to WIN,
not to survive a couple more people.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
________________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 23:49:45
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
|
On Dec 3, 11:22 pm, "alan" <mone...@aol.com > wrote:
> I think we have setlled all of the personal problems now. I hope we
> can continue with positive discussions.
>
> I enjoy and appreciate the info I learn here. As Ive said several
> times, Im new to playing poker. Heck, the first time I played in a
> poker game (tourney) was less than a year ago, and my first "cash" game
> was only a couple of months ago.
>
> I hope everyone will stick to facts and information and keep their
> insults and allegations to themselves, and leave them off of the
> newsgroup.
>
> thanks again.
>
> by the way, in a tournament tonight at Crystal Park near Los Angeles,
> with only 16 players remaining (top 7 paid) I was dealt QQ. I was on
> the button. The player under the gun bet 15,000 and everyone else
> folded except me. I went all-in with my QQ. The other player called
> (he had me covered easily).
>
> We turned over our cards. He had AJ offsuit.
>
> On the flop came an ace. I was out the door.
>
> And damn, I was thinking about folding my QQ.
>
> Damn. I play great, tight poker for four hours and lose it all with
> QQ.
>
Here's your problem in a nutshell. You made the right decision, but
you're questioning it because of a bad result. You don't say how much
you had in your stack or what the blinds were, but I'm guessing you
were somewhat shortstacked by the mention that your opponent had you
covered easily. When you're shortstacked in a tourney, and nowhere
near the bubble (9 eliminations out of 16 players to go), you shouldn't
THINK about folding QQ. Hell, in that situation, you shouldn't think
about folding AQ. If your opponent has AA or KK, tough break. If he
has AK and wins the race, tough break. If he has a weaker ace and gets
lucky, tough break. The important thing is that you make the right
decision and not get caught up in the result. The chips you could have
won by doubling up in this situation would have given you a much better
chance to make the money and/or win the tournament than you would have
had by folding QQ here. There's a lot of luck involved in poker
tournaments, but you have to put yourself in position to take advantage
of the good luck you do receive.
Michael
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 23:22:46
From: alan
Subject: Re: rate my STUPIDITY
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I think we have setlled all of the personal problems now. I hope we
can continue with positive discussions.
I enjoy and appreciate the info I learn here. As Ive said several
times, Im new to playing poker. Heck, the first time I played in a
poker game (tourney) was less than a year ago, and my first "cash" game
was only a couple of months ago.
I hope everyone will stick to facts and information and keep their
insults and allegations to themselves, and leave them off of the
newsgroup.
thanks again.
by the way, in a tournament tonight at Crystal Park near Los Angeles,
with only 16 players remaining (top 7 paid) I was dealt QQ. I was on
the button. The player under the gun bet 15,000 and everyone else
folded except me. I went all-in with my QQ. The other player called
(he had me covered easily).
We turned over our cards. He had AJ offsuit.
On the flop came an ace. I was out the door.
And damn, I was thinking about folding my QQ.
Damn. I play great, tight poker for four hours and lose it all with
QQ.
Will in New Haven wrote:
> alan wrote:
> > FellKnight wrote: "There is lots of great advice here, for
> > those willing to listen."
> >
> > Yes, there is a lot of good advice here, and I haven't disputed any of
> > it. I appreciate the info.
> >
> > What I have disputed are the attacks on my credibility. Specifically,
> > the allegation that I am a liar.
> >
> > I am not a liar.
> >
> > And, you can call me "Alan."
> >
> > By the way, there was a rule change at Hollywood a couple of days ago.
> > No longer are $100 bills allowed to be played. Only chips. The rule
> > change came about after a player was observed to take $100 bills out of
> > his pocket and added to his stack.
> >
> > This also means no more buying chips from other players; all chips must
> > be bought from the chip runners. Again, this is meant to avoid
> > situations where players might add to their stacks.
>
> That's usually the rule in England, I understand. Cash simply does not
> play. It also helps you judge, wiithout asking, how much your opponent
> has in his or her stack, in case you are thinking about implied odds.
> It also makes it easier to prevent rat-holing, whether without ill
> intent or done with the knowledge that it is illegal.
>
> Adding to your stack when you realize that you have the nuts is MUCH
> worse than rat-holing but I have never seen anyone doing it, while
> rat-holing is attempted fairly often. Of course, many of the people who
> do it are not aware that there is a rule against it. I don't think
> anyone innocently slips a couple of bills into his stack when he flops
> top set.
>
> I noticed someone trying to take a bill OFF the table in the middle of
> a hand because he wanted to call all-in with a draw and avoid losing
> all his money. THAT was not what you did and was clearly not innocent
> of ill intent. He was forced to put the bill into the pot but he would
> have won the pot had his card come. It didn't. I am still not sure that
> the ruling was correct.
>
> BTW: If you had responded the first time I doubted your word, I could
> have been convinced that you were telling the truth lot earlier,
> unlikely as the incident was. Sorry that I stayed on your case but you
> sure didn't seem to want to discuss it.
>
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> "Pot-Limit has more thinking involved; young people can't think"
> Norm Chad
>
> >
> >
> > FellKnight wrote:
> > > On Dec 3 2006 5:31 AM, alan wrote:
> > >
> > > > Will in New Haven: I never got your email. So, I'm goin to save you
> > > > the trouble.
> > > >
> > > > My name is Alan Mendelson.
> > > >
> > > > Google me. Check my credibility.
> > > >
> > > > I stand by what I said -- everything I said -- in this newsgroup.
> > >
> > > Dear Mr Mendelson,
> > >
> > > I believe that you believe that your opponent had Aces when you folded
> > > your Queens postflop, but the fact remains that you never saw the Aces,
> > > but simply relied on your opponent's honesty that that was, in fact, what
> > > he had.
> > >
> > > Since you stand by everything you have said in this newsgroup, this is not
> > > something you can deny. Allow me to quote your post:
> > >
> > > "After the table broke and we went on our way to other tourney tables, I
> > > asked the player on my right what he was holding when he went all in.
> > > He said AA -- and he was telling me the truth. He then commented how
> > > "right" I was to fold, and that reinforced his view of my very tight
> > > play."
> > >
> > > You have a very large ego, Mr. Mendelson (something that, I will concede,
> > > I have in common with you). You should approach this newsgroups with more
> > > than a couple of grains of salt. There is lots of great advice here, for
> > > those willing to listen.
> > >
> > > Fell
> > > --
> > > Website: www.fellknight.com
> > > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
> > >
> > > ---
> > > * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
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