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Main
Date: 18 Dec 2006 08:16:28
From:
Subject: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
general advise or good resources.
I'm new to poker and am trying to learn no limit holdem. i've been
playing the micro limits tables and freerole tournaments on full tilt.
i've read a couple books from Harrington and Carson and have tried to
stick with a fairly tight range of premium opening hands. at least
until i'm a bit more comfortable.
The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
I'm torn between continuing to bet and risk all my chips since the odds
are really against them hitting their draw or checking out. I know what
the odds say but I don't really have the bank role to let the long-term
stats take hold. Knowing that I play fairly tight I'll get other
chances to get some money later. But I don't want to get an image that
I won't stick with my hand.
With so many people playing crap to the river (probably because people
like me still fold half the time) how can you ever determine their
potential starting hands? Or is this "just" poker and I better get used
to it as it won't change if I ever move up to a different limit.
Any thoughts? Is it possible to learn to play online at these limits or
is it not enough money for many people to take seriously and they'll
continue to play against the odds?
Thanks.
MS
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 11:22:42
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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what'd you expect him to do? he was shortstacked?! kidding.
point well taken.
while i'm thinking about it... although it seems no one else is reading
this thread...
do you think there are better/worse days and times to play? for making
money and/or playing against 'good' players. i know the goal is to make
money so i imagine the more fish (me obviously) the better but does
that mean the 'best' players only come out on fri/sat night? i logged
in sunday morning and it was practically empty. wondered who's playing
then. didn't have time but curious if i'd get some better playing time
in if i did it off-peak.
Annon wrote:
> And as if to prove my point about bad play and limping, from the game I just
> played. If hed have raised preflop to 8x BB Im not sure hed have been called
> by 4h2h. But then again.... I know it was only 1/3 of his chips but 4 high
> !!!!
>
> Table "1" Seat 6 is the button.
> Seat 1: Dicky_010 (558 in chips)
> Seat 2: Pau111254 (722 in chips)
> Seat 3: Vagas35 (1038 in chips)
> Seat 5: Robert244 (708 in chips)
> Seat 6: ME (1647 in chips)
> Seat 7: Jasra2703 (1689 in chips)
> Seat 8: Smarky (760 in chips)
> Seat 9: doyley1 (1240 in chips)
> Seat 10: Lee07111 (1638 in chips)
> Jasra2703: posts small blind 15
> Smarky: posts big blind 30
> ----- HOLE CARDS -----
> dealt to ME [8c Tc]
> doyley1: folds
> Lee07111: calls 30
> Dicky_010: calls 30
> Pau111254: calls 30
> Vagas35: folds
> Robert244: folds
> ME: calls 30
> Jasra2703: folds
> Smarky: checks
> ----- FLOP ----- [Ah Jh 9s]
> Smarky: checks
> Lee07111: checks
> Dicky_010: bets 528 and is all-in
> Pau111254: folds
> ME: folds
> Smarky: folds
> Lee07111: calls 528
> ----- TURN ----- [Ah Jh 9s][Kc]
> ----- RIVER ----- [Ah Jh 9s Kc][7h]
> ----- SHOW DOWN -----
> Dicky_010: shows [Qd As] (A Pair of Aces, King high)
> Lee07111: shows [4h 2h] (A Flush, Ace high)
> Lee07111 collected 1221 from Main pot
> ----- SUMMARY -----
> Total pot 1221 Main pot 1221 Rake 0
> Board [Ah Jh 9s Kc 7h]
> Seat 1: Dicky_010 showed [Qd As] and lost with A Pair of Aces, King high
> Seat 2: Pau111254 folded on the Flop
> Seat 3: Vagas35 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 5: Robert244 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 6: ME (button) folded on the Flop
> Seat 7: Jasra2703 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 8: Smarky (big blind) folded on the Flop
> Seat 9: doyley1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 10: Lee07111 showed [4h 2h] and won (1221) with A Flush, Ace high
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 20:06:41
From: Annon
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166469762.461355.313050@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> while i'm thinking about it... although it seems no one else is reading
> this thread...
Im sure someone will be along in a bit to explain how fishy we are. :-)
> do you think there are better/worse days and times to play? for making
> money and/or playing against 'good' players. i know the goal is to make
> money so i imagine the more fish (me obviously) the better but does
> that mean the 'best' players only come out on fri/sat night? i logged
> in sunday morning and it was practically empty. wondered who's playing
> then. didn't have time but curious if i'd get some better playing time
> in if i did it off-peak.
Before you take any notice of what I say- I should add overall after 2 years
Im down 10% of my inital bankroll, but I consider this a fair price to pay
for the experience and entertainment.
You've not going to make proper cash at those levels its just too hard. If
you're playing for the game or building a bankroll then you should be able
to stay +ve grinding away until you can afford to play something a little
more predictable and therefore profitable.
Days/times vary a huge amount. Ideally to make cash you dont want good or
bad players you want predictable ones. Too many good players and you'll get
run over - too many bad and you'll suffer so many bad beats you'll be pushed
onto tilt and end up spending your winnings on new mice to replace the ones
you keep throwing against the wall. <just trust me on that one >
I play mainly weekdays 6-10pm - it usually catches the reasonable
recreational players. I try not to play weekends too many kids , students
and drunks trying to play like Gus does on TV. Rememeber just because its
Sunday morning there it could be Saturday night where your opponent is..
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 19:20:20
From: Auggie
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166458588.170214.325960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
> general advise or good resources.
>
> I'm new to poker and am trying to learn no limit holdem. i've been
> playing the micro limits tables and freerole tournaments on full tilt.
> i've read a couple books from Harrington and Carson and have tried to
> stick with a fairly tight range of premium opening hands. at least
> until i'm a bit more comfortable.
>
> The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
> even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
> middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
> even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
> caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
> someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
> think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
Freerolls are usually not a very good place to learn poker. The first
problem is that its effectivly a play money tournament so you will have
players that call and play with anything early on simply because the chips
have no value. Many of the other players are going to be the ones that will
just go all in with just about any two cards so they can get a quick double
or triple up - the idea being that a freeroll can take a couple of hours to
play and so they either want to get a lot of chips quickly or get knocked
out so they can start the next freeroll.
With micro limits the problem is that its micro limits. The players at that
level are mostly pretty bad and have no clue how to the play the game and
they often don't fold anything because they don't want to throw away that
7/2 offsuit, even in the face of a big raise, and then see the flop come
"772". Those are players that are also going to chase crappy draws and
miracle longshots to the river. There are also players who lurk at that
level because they know they are up against alot of players who are on their
way out - players who bought in for maybe $500... played at a higher limit
and lost... went to a lower limit... lost... and so on until they are now
down to their final $5 so all they can buy in to is a 2c/4c game. The
predatory players know that they can pretty much build up the pot, wait for
the flop and then push all in with any two cards, irregardless of if they
hit the flop or not, because they know that most of these tight players will
fold because they are afraid to lose their last couple of bucks.
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 09:10:42
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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Thanks Annon,
I know it seems to be bad form and against everything i read but i'm
not sure any of it is written for my situation (very low limits). is
there any merit to to just calling bb (even when opening) and
intentionally keeping the pot low to keep people from trying to steal
it so badly. at least until i get a better idea if drawing hands are
more likely to hit. i know i don't want a bunch of limpers in after me
but i don't want to go all in every other time either. if one happens
to raise, then i'm in the opposite position and can just call them for
a change. with my starting hands i'm still probably in the lead and now
they're questioning... although i still don't know any more about their
hand. i'm just trying to get some experience and keep my limited
bankroll constant so i can continue to play. not expecting to make lots
of money. i see sng's mentioned and have played a couple but they seem
to be their own odd little world. basically a tournament final table
but without the high blinds compared to chip count. is this still good
experience to learn the game?
Annon wrote:
> <mark_s_nospam@entouch.net> wrote in message
> news:1166458588.170214.325960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
> > general advise or good resources.
>
> <SNIP>
> > The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
> > even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
> > middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
> > even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
> > caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
> > someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
> > think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
>
> Preflop raises at that sort of level are generally ignored early / middle
> tournament.
>
> Most players will call 4XBB with anything - 8x - 10x should shake out the
> weaker but you're still going to get called by Ace rag, expecially if
> they're suited.
>
> >
> > I'm torn between continuing to bet and risk all my chips since the odds
> > are really against them hitting their draw or checking out. I know what
> > the odds say but I don't really have the bank role to let the long-term
> > stats take hold. Knowing that I play fairly tight I'll get other
> > chances to get some money later. But I don't want to get an image that
> > I won't stick with my hand.
>
> You wont get chance to check it down. If you try they'll push all in on the
> river regardless. Bet and they'll call you down just incase they hit a river
> ace or you've missed your draw.
>
> >
> > With so many people playing crap to the river (probably because people
> > like me still fold half the time) how can you ever determine their
> > potential starting hands? Or is this "just" poker and I better get used
> > to it as it won't change if I ever move up to a different limit.
>
> At the levels you're playing - *any* 2 cards, regardless of preflop play. I
> have however found that pot limit tables are a little more orthodox.
>
> >
> > Any thoughts? Is it possible to learn to play online at these limits or
> > is it not enough money for many people to take seriously and they'll
> > continue to play against the odds?
>
> I think you pretty much sum it up there.
>
> I play mainly low limit SNG's both PL and NL now - ring games were bruning
> the bankroll at an alarming rate. Until you get down to 3-4 players people
> you can forget most of the "formal" play. You cant get them to fold when
> you think they should, Im convinced even if they could see your cards most
> would chase the 2 - 3 outers. The only thing you can do is make them pay
> for their draws -get the money if good and either you win big or you suffer
> a horrible beat.
>
> Over the long run Id be supprised to hear that it was possible to be a
> winning player at these levels - too many people chasing too many outs. You
> cant beat them all the time.
>
> Any low/micro limit winning players around?
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 17:51:33
From: Annon
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166461842.429011.49730@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks Annon,
> I know it seems to be bad form and against everything i read but i'm
> not sure any of it is written for my situation (very low limits). is
> there any merit to to just calling bb (even when opening) and
> intentionally keeping the pot low to keep people from trying to steal
> it so badly.
If you dont raise your going to face 1/2 a table of limpers - the problem
comes with a scary flop - eg your QQ and the flop is TA9. There are so many
hands that have you beat at this point and you have no way of knowing if
they're out there. If you represent an ace someone could have one - and
theres no way they'll fold top pair even with a bad kicker. You're not
going to push someone off the straight draw and thats before we get to the
trips and two pairs and any flush possibilities.
> at least until i get a better idea if drawing hands are
> more likely to hit. i know i don't want a bunch of limpers in after me
> but i don't want to go all in every other time either.
You want to win chips not hands - if you can carry 1 or 2 limpers and they
miss - great they've made a nice big pot for you, if they hit then youre
dead in the water. The more limpers you carry the more chance someone has
of hitting their miricle card, Im not keen on going to the river with more
than 2 others.
> if one happens
> to raise, then i'm in the opposite position and can just call them for
> a change. with my starting hands i'm still probably in the lead and now
> they're questioning...
Nope they're not - 90% dont care what you have they only see the board and
their cards .... So what are you going to do on an all rag board when they
push all in on the river? Is your 1 pair good enough ? have they hit a
straight a flush , 2 pair? You dont know - you cant tell they've played it
like a monster hand but they could just have 55 and as the boards shows
nothing big you *must* have missed your draw.
If its a ring game you can always wait for a better hand.You cant get the
information your looking for at low limit by betting alone - you need a read
on the players. Sit and watch them, they dont know if youre folding 72 or
AA, let them show you how they play against other people. When you feel you
have a good enough read on a player play a pot against them if it goes badly
then watch some more.
Good experience - dunno. There have been several threads about giving people
bad habbits etc, and Im sure Ive picked up a few. What it will teach you is
how badly most people play - (me included) now all you have to do is turn
that info into winning hands.
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 18:45:21
From: Annon
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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And as if to prove my point about bad play and limping, from the game I just
played. If hed have raised preflop to 8x BB Im not sure hed have been called
by 4h2h. But then again.... I know it was only 1/3 of his chips but 4 high
!!!!
Table "1" Seat 6 is the button.
Seat 1: Dicky_010 (558 in chips)
Seat 2: Pau111254 (722 in chips)
Seat 3: Vagas35 (1038 in chips)
Seat 5: Robert244 (708 in chips)
Seat 6: ME (1647 in chips)
Seat 7: Jasra2703 (1689 in chips)
Seat 8: Smarky (760 in chips)
Seat 9: doyley1 (1240 in chips)
Seat 10: Lee07111 (1638 in chips)
Jasra2703: posts small blind 15
Smarky: posts big blind 30
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to ME [8c Tc]
doyley1: folds
Lee07111: calls 30
Dicky_010: calls 30
Pau111254: calls 30
Vagas35: folds
Robert244: folds
ME: calls 30
Jasra2703: folds
Smarky: checks
----- FLOP ----- [Ah Jh 9s]
Smarky: checks
Lee07111: checks
Dicky_010: bets 528 and is all-in
Pau111254: folds
ME: folds
Smarky: folds
Lee07111: calls 528
----- TURN ----- [Ah Jh 9s][Kc]
----- RIVER ----- [Ah Jh 9s Kc][7h]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Dicky_010: shows [Qd As] (A Pair of Aces, King high)
Lee07111: shows [4h 2h] (A Flush, Ace high)
Lee07111 collected 1221 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 1221 Main pot 1221 Rake 0
Board [Ah Jh 9s Kc 7h]
Seat 1: Dicky_010 showed [Qd As] and lost with A Pair of Aces, King high
Seat 2: Pau111254 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Vagas35 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Robert244 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ME (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Jasra2703 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Smarky (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: doyley1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Lee07111 showed [4h 2h] and won (1221) with A Flush, Ace high
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 02:42:01
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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Oh yeah, I have more. Never never never limp in. With a good hand you
raise. If you arent sure you should raise then fold. At micro limits
folding is a great tool. Fold until you know you have the best hand. You
know you have the best hand because of the reads you get from the others
at the table. Against one person 2 pair might be foldable while against
another a pair of threes might be a for sure winner.
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Date: 19 Dec
From: arlo payne
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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On Dec 19 2006 12:42 AM, ben carr wrote:
> Oh yeah, I have more. Never never never limp in.
There is a ton of truth in that statement
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 02:38:16
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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I dont play online at all, but do play small limit live games every now
and then. I usually play medium sized games. When playing small limit
games I always play extremely tight. You can afford to wait a long time.
During that time I pick up on any info I can about the other players.
Whenever I do win a hand it is usually relatively big. You get 2 or 3
callers who play junk and are willing to play it for a big price. Im
extremely tight before the flop and very tight after the flop. On the
rare occasion I am in a hand I am the aggresor and bet or raise whenever
I can. If I get a good read on someone I will adjust my play
accordingly. Sometimes I throw in a shit hand just to throw people off
my scent, but that doesnt happen more than a few times a session.Thats
about it for my low limit strategy. Play very tight, get reads, play
aggressive. Also, dont be afraid to fold any time you are in an unclear
situation. Dont worry about maximizing your winning,, the fish will take
care of that for you. Minimize your losses.
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 16:55:10
From: Annon
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166458588.170214.325960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
> general advise or good resources.
<SNIP >
> The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
> even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
> middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
> even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
> caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
> someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
> think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
Preflop raises at that sort of level are generally ignored early / middle
tournament.
Most players will call 4XBB with anything - 8x - 10x should shake out the
weaker but you're still going to get called by Ace rag, expecially if
they're suited.
>
> I'm torn between continuing to bet and risk all my chips since the odds
> are really against them hitting their draw or checking out. I know what
> the odds say but I don't really have the bank role to let the long-term
> stats take hold. Knowing that I play fairly tight I'll get other
> chances to get some money later. But I don't want to get an image that
> I won't stick with my hand.
You wont get chance to check it down. If you try they'll push all in on the
river regardless. Bet and they'll call you down just incase they hit a river
ace or you've missed your draw.
>
> With so many people playing crap to the river (probably because people
> like me still fold half the time) how can you ever determine their
> potential starting hands? Or is this "just" poker and I better get used
> to it as it won't change if I ever move up to a different limit.
At the levels you're playing - *any* 2 cards, regardless of preflop play. I
have however found that pot limit tables are a little more orthodox.
>
> Any thoughts? Is it possible to learn to play online at these limits or
> is it not enough money for many people to take seriously and they'll
> continue to play against the odds?
I think you pretty much sum it up there.
I play mainly low limit SNG's both PL and NL now - ring games were bruning
the bankroll at an alarming rate. Until you get down to 3-4 players people
you can forget most of the "formal" play. You cant get them to fold when
you think they should, Im convinced even if they could see your cards most
would chase the 2 - 3 outers. The only thing you can do is make them pay
for their draws -get the money if good and either you win big or you suffer
a horrible beat.
Over the long run Id be supprised to hear that it was possible to be a
winning player at these levels - too many people chasing too many outs. You
cant beat them all the time.
Any low/micro limit winning players around?
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 15:13:21
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
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"Annon" <doesitreally@matter.neway > wrote in message
news:OJzhh.18360$k74.9006@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
<snip >
> Any low/micro limit winning players around?
Yes. I play exclusively at the micro limits
and do very well there.
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
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Date: 18 Dec 2006 15:49:45
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
Thanks for the details. i appreciate it.
Auggie wrote:
> <mark_s_nospam@entouch.net> wrote in message
> news:1166470398.874343.30800@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > Thanks Auggie,
> >
> > in your opinion is there a higher limit game that starts getting more
> > 'serious' but isn't too high stakes to lose too much too quickly. i
> > know you don't know my playing but i can't imagine there are really
> > really good players at the .25/.50 tables or they'd be making more
> > money at $1/$2. maybe i'm totally wrong. seems like still really low
> > stakes but not as bad as .2/.4 or .5/.10 i'm guessing. i see some of
> > the satillite tournaments for $3 - $5 too. are these basically
> > freerolls too? or might be worth trying out? do you think new players
> > tend to play tournaments or ring games more? just curious. sorry for so
> > many questions.
>
> I play only at PokerStars and play a lot of sit and goes in the $3-5 range.
> While I am doing a SNG I will usually play a couple of micro limit tables to
> win enough to cover my entry in the SNG. In doing this I've played
> thousands of hands of micro limit LHE and NLHE.
>
> This is in relation to my experiences on PokerStars and might not apply to
> the site you are playing at:
>
> LIMIT
>
> .02/.04: Lots of bad beats going around. Almost always somebody in the pot
> chasing something irregardless of the flop. If you play very solid and
> tight you should still have no problem winning at this level, but when you
> take a horrible beat you have to be able to just ignore it.
>
> .05/.10: Play actually picks up quite a bit. There are still quite a few
> players chasing with garbage, but nowhere near as much as at the .02/.04
> level. A good raise and reraise will usually chase the crap out of the pot
> preflop... No, having players with junk in the pot isn't that bad, but you
> don't want your AA going up against 8 other hands and at this level you can
> usually weed out enough players.
>
> .10/.20: This is a weird level: Play at this level is really shitty
> compared to the .05/.10 level. The limits go up, but the play really goes
> down. At this level you will get players with 3 to the straight or 3 to the
> flush on the flop and they'll start jamming the pot like they got a monster.
> You will probably see as many bad beats at this level as you would at the
> .02/.04 level.
> I think this level is so bad because this is where many of the limit
> players who are "on the way out" end up. They joined the site with a few
> hundred bucks and played the higher levels and now they have $10 left. They
> lose it too fast at the next level up and don't win enough at the next level
> down.
> The reason I don't like this level is because there often so many
> players chasing in each pot that even if you play a solid tight game you get
> so many bad beats that you usually just end up breaking even in the long
> run.
>
> .25/.50: I like this level. Good solid play is generally rewarded. A
> raise and a reraise will usually get you heads up. You still see players
> chasing miracles, but nowhere near as much as the previous levels. The big
> money makers at this level is a big ace or big king because you will still
> get lots of players in the pot with any ace or king with some junky kicker
> and you can usually keep raising and they'll keep calling if you hit the
> flop. But that does mean to play a big pair with caution: If somebody has
> an ace or king with anything they'll almost always call to see the flop. If
> you have JJ or QQ try to get 1 raise in before the flop (whether you do the
> raise or not) to try and weed out the crappy hands and if there is no big
> card on the flop go full speed ahead, otherwise proceed with caution.
>
> I have played at higher levels, but do not have the experience to comment on
> the properly.
>
>
> NO LIMIT
>
> .01/.02: This is a total crapfest and I hate playing at this level. A guy
> going "ALL IN" on the flop is just as likely to have a pocket pair of threes
> that whiffed the flop as he is to have top set or have missed the flop
> entirely and is just looking to bluff - there is no telling what they could
> have at this level. A raise of 4-5 times the BB will usually get all but 1
> player to call... if you push all in you will still probably get 1 caller
>
> .02/.05: This is almost as bad as the previous level, but not as bad. A
> good preflop raise will usually chase out the riff raff from the pot...
> sometimes you can even buy the pot with a good raise and not having to push
> all in.
>
> .05/.10: At this level you are starting to see some good play from other
> players. Generaly a good raise means "I have a good hand" not "I am an
> idiot" like it usually does at lower levels.
>
> .10/.25: At this level buying the pot actually means something. The pots
> usually get up to $7-10 so you will get guys taking a shot at it with a
> bluff sometimes. Many will say the difference between limit and no limit
> hold 'em is "to play no limit, you gotta have heart" and this is the first
> time I would say it applies at the micro limits. At this level you might
> need to ask yourself "Do I have the heart to make this call?" at the
> previous limits you usually ask yourself "How big of an idiot do I think
> that guy is?"
>
> I have never played at a higher level of NLHE online than the dime/quarter
> level, so I can comment no further.
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 13:47:35
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
many thanks. what are your favorite micro sites and is there really a
difference other than UI? i've only played FTP.
although my experience is very limited, this sounds similar to me
(comfort level, etc) although i haven't yet become able the maniac when
tables get tight.
Mark B (Diputsur) wrote:
> <mark_s_nospam@entouch.net> wrote in message
> news:1166475743.222499.19900@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Thanks Mark
> >
> > if you don't mind... did you get used to the maniac players and just
> > play around them, pick your places to play so it isn't an issue, or
> > other?
>
> Depends on the table and my mood... with a lot of maniacs on
> the table I tend to pick my spots wisely, on a tight table full of
> shortstacks that don't want to gamble I often am the maniac.
>
> > do you see micro limit as a stepping stone once a large enough bank
> > roll is made or do you enjoy it at that level and see yourself
> > potentially staying there?
>
> I'm cheap. I enjoy playing at the micro limits and see myself
> staying there. I normally start an account with $100 and when
> it hits $200 rather than move up in limits I typically withdraw
> and deposit on a new site. I don't see myself ever playing at
> the higher limits because I can't see risking more than $10 on
> a hand of online poker (although I have risked as much as $40
> after building a stack on the penny tables) I'm out of my comfort
> zone for some reason over $10 online.
>
> > do you ever test yourself on the higher
> > levels to see if/how skillsets change?
>
> I play between .01/.02 and .10/.20 NL (.25/.50 L) and normally
> stick to it. I have played higher on party (tried out the BadBeat
> tables hoping to get a share) but bought in with a shortstack
> and although I held my own for about an hour, the first time I
> picked up a hand worth playing aggressively (KK) the fat-stack
> crushed me with his ace/rag on the river ;-) Sent me back to
> the micros with my tail between my legs.
>
> > just curious. sorry if too
> > personal.
> >
> > any books you recommend that you feel apply best to micro limits?
>
> None of them apply to micro limits, but I apply them all ;-)
> That's the one place where poker does cost me... the
> bookstore. I never read a poker book I didn't like... even
> the ones I've hated were worth reading ;-)
>
> HTH,
> Mark
> --
> www.myspace.com/diputsur
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 17:28:09
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166478455.836666.68640@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> many thanks. what are your favorite micro sites and is there really a
> difference other than UI? i've only played FTP.
iPoker used to be my favorite... but I was banned from all 3 sites
I logged in through (no more US players.) I don't have a favorite
per se at the moment, but I have been doing a lot of ringing at
Doyle's lately. I just opened a UB account today, so I'll probably
be spending a lot of time there for the next week or two to check
things out. FTP is great for tournaments, but I was raped there
last night on the cash tables. ;-)
> although my experience is very limited, this sounds similar to me
> (comfort level, etc) although i haven't yet become able the maniac
> when tables get tight.
Just pretend you're looking at AA and bet accordingly ;-)
I find it's easier to do shorthanded btw, on a 9 or 10 handed
table you're much more likely to run into AA! I try not to run
too many bluffs on full tables.
Good luck,
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 13:06:01
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
Thanks. good points.
GrimJack808 wrote:
> Auggie makes some good points.
>
> Here is a little extra to chew on.
>
> At a brick and mortar casino you can see your opponents. You can tell
> if they have been sitting in the top section, and have moved to your
> game. You can tell from how they dress to how they present themselves
> if they are playing at a meaningful limit for them, or if they are
> playing beneath their threshold and are just there to throw some chips
> around and cheaply work off some pent up tilt driven aggression.
>
> Online, you can't see this. You could be playing some kid from
> Bangladesh who at the .01/.02 limit table is risking as much as a guy
> making $100K a year in the US playing at the $10/$20 tables. Online
> there is a lot of relativity to the players and the way they play. To
> some people, this sort of behavior makes online poker too unreliable to
> play at the very lowest limits.
>
> In freerolls, you have the trolls that are there to go all in on a few
> times within the first few minutes in order to quickly amass a lot of
> chips so it is meaningful for them to stick around for the 4-8 hours it
> takes to make the money. There are so many freerolls at various sites
> at all hours, some people don't want to waste the time sticking around
> for the $.80 payout.
>
> So you need to be careful of these types of players when you sit
> online. Playing the super low limits should teach you the art of
> patience, since you know almost any hand you play will be called. You
> must either learn to wait for the good hands to play into a raise, or
> learn how you can see flops cheaply and when you don't connect fold.
> In either event, the patience you learn will serve you well as you move
> up.
>
> Remember at any level you play there is likely some rich guy likely
> sitting at the table who will call all your best just for fun. Its
> just the number of these people declines as you go up in limits.
>
> Interestingly enough, in the Brick and Mortar world, the $40 NL games
> play remarkable similar to the $500NL games. (Very loose adrenaline
> fests with a lot of all ins pre-flop). The $80, $100 and $200 NL games
> seem to be filled with people who play more rationally. IMHO.
>
> Good Luck!
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> $100 Free Party Poker Bankroll -OR- $50 Free Titan Poker Bankroll
> $100 Free Absolute Poker Bankroll
> No Deposit/No Credit Card
> http://www.pokersourceonline.com/freepoker/money.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808
>
> Extra $60-$90-$120 over & above normal bonus for 12 popular sites:
> http://www.pokersourceonline.com/freepoker/gifts.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808
>
> micro-limits, people are often playing below their
>
>
>
> mark_s_nos...@entouch.net wrote:
> > Thanks Auggie,
> >
> > in your opinion is there a higher limit game that starts getting more
> > 'serious' but isn't too high stakes to lose too much too quickly. i
> > know you don't know my playing but i can't imagine there are really
> > really good players at the .25/.50 tables or they'd be making more
> > money at $1/$2. maybe i'm totally wrong. seems like still really low
> > stakes but not as bad as .2/.4 or .5/.10 i'm guessing. i see some of
> > the satillite tournaments for $3 - $5 too. are these basically
> > freerolls too? or might be worth trying out? do you think new players
> > tend to play tournaments or ring games more? just curious. sorry for so
> > many questions.
> >
> > Auggie wrote:
> > > <mark_s_nospam@entouch.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1166458588.170214.325960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > > > Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
> > > > general advise or good resources.
> > > >
> > > > I'm new to poker and am trying to learn no limit holdem. i've been
> > > > playing the micro limits tables and freerole tournaments on full tilt.
> > > > i've read a couple books from Harrington and Carson and have tried to
> > > > stick with a fairly tight range of premium opening hands. at least
> > > > until i'm a bit more comfortable.
> > > >
> > > > The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
> > > > even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
> > > > middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
> > > > even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
> > > > caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
> > > > someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
> > > > think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
> > >
> > >
> > > Freerolls are usually not a very good place to learn poker. The first
> > > problem is that its effectivly a play money tournament so you will have
> > > players that call and play with anything early on simply because the chips
> > > have no value. Many of the other players are going to be the ones that will
> > > just go all in with just about any two cards so they can get a quick double
> > > or triple up - the idea being that a freeroll can take a couple of hours to
> > > play and so they either want to get a lot of chips quickly or get knocked
> > > out so they can start the next freeroll.
> > >
> > >
> > > With micro limits the problem is that its micro limits. The players at that
> > > level are mostly pretty bad and have no clue how to the play the game and
> > > they often don't fold anything because they don't want to throw away that
> > > 7/2 offsuit, even in the face of a big raise, and then see the flop come
> > > "772". Those are players that are also going to chase crappy draws and
> > > miracle longshots to the river. There are also players who lurk at that
> > > level because they know they are up against alot of players who are on their
> > > way out - players who bought in for maybe $500... played at a higher limit
> > > and lost... went to a lower limit... lost... and so on until they are now
> > > down to their final $5 so all they can buy in to is a 2c/4c game. The
> > > predatory players know that they can pretty much build up the pot, wait for
> > > the flop and then push all in with any two cards, irregardless of if they
> > > hit the flop or not, because they know that most of these tight players will
> > > fold because they are afraid to lose their last couple of bucks.
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 13:02:23
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
Thanks Mark
if you don't mind... did you get used to the maniac players and just
play around them, pick your places to play so it isn't an issue, or
other?
do you see micro limit as a stepping stone once a large enough bank
roll is made or do you enjoy it at that level and see yourself
potentially staying there? do you ever test yourself on the higher
levels to see if/how skillsets change? just curious. sorry if too
personal.
any books you recommend that you feel apply best to micro limits?
Mark B (Diputsur) wrote:
> "Annon" <doesitreally@matter.neway> wrote in message
> news:OJzhh.18360$k74.9006@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> <snip>
> > Any low/micro limit winning players around?
>
> Yes. I play exclusively at the micro limits
> and do very well there.
>
> Mark
> --
> www.myspace.com/diputsur
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 16:32:25
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166475743.222499.19900@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks Mark
>
> if you don't mind... did you get used to the maniac players and just
> play around them, pick your places to play so it isn't an issue, or
> other?
Depends on the table and my mood... with a lot of maniacs on
the table I tend to pick my spots wisely, on a tight table full of
shortstacks that don't want to gamble I often am the maniac.
> do you see micro limit as a stepping stone once a large enough bank
> roll is made or do you enjoy it at that level and see yourself
> potentially staying there?
I'm cheap. I enjoy playing at the micro limits and see myself
staying there. I normally start an account with $100 and when
it hits $200 rather than move up in limits I typically withdraw
and deposit on a new site. I don't see myself ever playing at
the higher limits because I can't see risking more than $10 on
a hand of online poker (although I have risked as much as $40
after building a stack on the penny tables) I'm out of my comfort
zone for some reason over $10 online.
> do you ever test yourself on the higher
> levels to see if/how skillsets change?
I play between .01/.02 and .10/.20 NL (.25/.50 L) and normally
stick to it. I have played higher on party (tried out the BadBeat
tables hoping to get a share) but bought in with a shortstack
and although I held my own for about an hour, the first time I
picked up a hand worth playing aggressively (KK) the fat-stack
crushed me with his ace/rag on the river ;-) Sent me back to
the micros with my tail between my legs.
> just curious. sorry if too
> personal.
>
> any books you recommend that you feel apply best to micro limits?
None of them apply to micro limits, but I apply them all ;-)
That's the one place where poker does cost me... the
bookstore. I never read a poker book I didn't like... even
the ones I've hated were worth reading ;-)
HTH,
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 12:45:08
From: GrimJack808
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
Auggie makes some good points.
Here is a little extra to chew on.
At a brick and mortar casino you can see your opponents. You can tell
if they have been sitting in the top section, and have moved to your
game. You can tell from how they dress to how they present themselves
if they are playing at a meaningful limit for them, or if they are
playing beneath their threshold and are just there to throw some chips
around and cheaply work off some pent up tilt driven aggression.
Online, you can't see this. You could be playing some kid from
Bangladesh who at the .01/.02 limit table is risking as much as a guy
making $100K a year in the US playing at the $10/$20 tables. Online
there is a lot of relativity to the players and the way they play. To
some people, this sort of behavior makes online poker too unreliable to
play at the very lowest limits.
In freerolls, you have the trolls that are there to go all in on a few
times within the first few minutes in order to quickly amass a lot of
chips so it is meaningful for them to stick around for the 4-8 hours it
takes to make the money. There are so many freerolls at various sites
at all hours, some people don't want to waste the time sticking around
for the $.80 payout.
So you need to be careful of these types of players when you sit
online. Playing the super low limits should teach you the art of
patience, since you know almost any hand you play will be called. You
must either learn to wait for the good hands to play into a raise, or
learn how you can see flops cheaply and when you don't connect fold.
In either event, the patience you learn will serve you well as you move
up.
Remember at any level you play there is likely some rich guy likely
sitting at the table who will call all your best just for fun. Its
just the number of these people declines as you go up in limits.
Interestingly enough, in the Brick and Mortar world, the $40 NL games
play remarkable similar to the $500NL games. (Very loose adrenaline
fests with a lot of all ins pre-flop). The $80, $100 and $200 NL games
seem to be filled with people who play more rationally. IMHO.
Good Luck!
--------------------------------------------------------------
$100 Free Party Poker Bankroll -OR- $50 Free Titan Poker Bankroll
$100 Free Absolute Poker Bankroll
No Deposit/No Credit Card
http://www.pokersourceonline.com/freepoker/money.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808
Extra $60-$90-$120 over & above normal bonus for 12 popular sites:
http://www.pokersourceonline.com/freepoker/gifts.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808
micro-limits, people are often playing below their
mark_s_nos...@entouch.net wrote:
> Thanks Auggie,
>
> in your opinion is there a higher limit game that starts getting more
> 'serious' but isn't too high stakes to lose too much too quickly. i
> know you don't know my playing but i can't imagine there are really
> really good players at the .25/.50 tables or they'd be making more
> money at $1/$2. maybe i'm totally wrong. seems like still really low
> stakes but not as bad as .2/.4 or .5/.10 i'm guessing. i see some of
> the satillite tournaments for $3 - $5 too. are these basically
> freerolls too? or might be worth trying out? do you think new players
> tend to play tournaments or ring games more? just curious. sorry for so
> many questions.
>
> Auggie wrote:
> > <mark_s_nospam@entouch.net> wrote in message
> > news:1166458588.170214.325960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > > Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
> > > general advise or good resources.
> > >
> > > I'm new to poker and am trying to learn no limit holdem. i've been
> > > playing the micro limits tables and freerole tournaments on full tilt.
> > > i've read a couple books from Harrington and Carson and have tried to
> > > stick with a fairly tight range of premium opening hands. at least
> > > until i'm a bit more comfortable.
> > >
> > > The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
> > > even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
> > > middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
> > > even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
> > > caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
> > > someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
> > > think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
> >
> >
> > Freerolls are usually not a very good place to learn poker. The first
> > problem is that its effectivly a play money tournament so you will have
> > players that call and play with anything early on simply because the chips
> > have no value. Many of the other players are going to be the ones that will
> > just go all in with just about any two cards so they can get a quick double
> > or triple up - the idea being that a freeroll can take a couple of hours to
> > play and so they either want to get a lot of chips quickly or get knocked
> > out so they can start the next freeroll.
> >
> >
> > With micro limits the problem is that its micro limits. The players at that
> > level are mostly pretty bad and have no clue how to the play the game and
> > they often don't fold anything because they don't want to throw away that
> > 7/2 offsuit, even in the face of a big raise, and then see the flop come
> > "772". Those are players that are also going to chase crappy draws and
> > miracle longshots to the river. There are also players who lurk at that
> > level because they know they are up against alot of players who are on their
> > way out - players who bought in for maybe $500... played at a higher limit
> > and lost... went to a lower limit... lost... and so on until they are now
> > down to their final $5 so all they can buy in to is a 2c/4c game. The
> > predatory players know that they can pretty much build up the pot, wait for
> > the flop and then push all in with any two cards, irregardless of if they
> > hit the flop or not, because they know that most of these tight players will
> > fold because they are afraid to lose their last couple of bucks.
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 11:33:18
From:
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
Thanks Auggie,
in your opinion is there a higher limit game that starts getting more
'serious' but isn't too high stakes to lose too much too quickly. i
know you don't know my playing but i can't imagine there are really
really good players at the .25/.50 tables or they'd be making more
money at $1/$2. maybe i'm totally wrong. seems like still really low
stakes but not as bad as .2/.4 or .5/.10 i'm guessing. i see some of
the satillite tournaments for $3 - $5 too. are these basically
freerolls too? or might be worth trying out? do you think new players
tend to play tournaments or ring games more? just curious. sorry for so
many questions.
Auggie wrote:
> <mark_s_nospam@entouch.net> wrote in message
> news:1166458588.170214.325960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Sorry that this will be pretty vague. Hoping someone can give some
> > general advise or good resources.
> >
> > I'm new to poker and am trying to learn no limit holdem. i've been
> > playing the micro limits tables and freerole tournaments on full tilt.
> > i've read a couple books from Harrington and Carson and have tried to
> > stick with a fairly tight range of premium opening hands. at least
> > until i'm a bit more comfortable.
> >
> > The problem i seem to be facing most often is opening with a raise,
> > even 4 x BB i get a couple callers (for sake of example, say QQ from
> > middle position either opening or maybe one limper also in middle).
> > even if I hit a set and raise big again, there always seems to be a
> > caller. Rarely a reraise to show much strength though. It seems like
> > someone always chases a flush draw or is seemingly bluffing hoping i
> > think they have a monster and are just letting me continue to bet.
>
>
> Freerolls are usually not a very good place to learn poker. The first
> problem is that its effectivly a play money tournament so you will have
> players that call and play with anything early on simply because the chips
> have no value. Many of the other players are going to be the ones that will
> just go all in with just about any two cards so they can get a quick double
> or triple up - the idea being that a freeroll can take a couple of hours to
> play and so they either want to get a lot of chips quickly or get knocked
> out so they can start the next freeroll.
>
>
> With micro limits the problem is that its micro limits. The players at that
> level are mostly pretty bad and have no clue how to the play the game and
> they often don't fold anything because they don't want to throw away that
> 7/2 offsuit, even in the face of a big raise, and then see the flop come
> "772". Those are players that are also going to chase crappy draws and
> miracle longshots to the river. There are also players who lurk at that
> level because they know they are up against alot of players who are on their
> way out - players who bought in for maybe $500... played at a higher limit
> and lost... went to a lower limit... lost... and so on until they are now
> down to their final $5 so all they can buy in to is a 2c/4c game. The
> predatory players know that they can pretty much build up the pot, wait for
> the flop and then push all in with any two cards, irregardless of if they
> hit the flop or not, because they know that most of these tight players will
> fold because they are afraid to lose their last couple of bucks.
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 23:28:44
From: Auggie
Subject: Re: determining opponents' starting hands - online/micro nolimit
|
<mark_s_nospam@entouch.net > wrote in message
news:1166470398.874343.30800@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks Auggie,
>
> in your opinion is there a higher limit game that starts getting more
> 'serious' but isn't too high stakes to lose too much too quickly. i
> know you don't know my playing but i can't imagine there are really
> really good players at the .25/.50 tables or they'd be making more
> money at $1/$2. maybe i'm totally wrong. seems like still really low
> stakes but not as bad as .2/.4 or .5/.10 i'm guessing. i see some of
> the satillite tournaments for $3 - $5 too. are these basically
> freerolls too? or might be worth trying out? do you think new players
> tend to play tournaments or ring games more? just curious. sorry for so
> many questions.
I play only at PokerStars and play a lot of sit and goes in the $3-5 range.
While I am doing a SNG I will usually play a couple of micro limit tables to
win enough to cover my entry in the SNG. In doing this I've played
thousands of hands of micro limit LHE and NLHE.
This is in relation to my experiences on PokerStars and might not apply to
the site you are playing at:
LIMIT
.02/.04: Lots of bad beats going around. Almost always somebody in the pot
chasing something irregardless of the flop. If you play very solid and
tight you should still have no problem winning at this level, but when you
take a horrible beat you have to be able to just ignore it.
.05/.10: Play actually picks up quite a bit. There are still quite a few
players chasing with garbage, but nowhere near as much as at the .02/.04
level. A good raise and reraise will usually chase the crap out of the pot
preflop... No, having players with junk in the pot isn't that bad, but you
don't want your AA going up against 8 other hands and at this level you can
usually weed out enough players.
.10/.20: This is a weird level: Play at this level is really shitty
compared to the .05/.10 level. The limits go up, but the play really goes
down. At this level you will get players with 3 to the straight or 3 to the
flush on the flop and they'll start jamming the pot like they got a monster.
You will probably see as many bad beats at this level as you would at the
.02/.04 level.
I think this level is so bad because this is where many of the limit
players who are "on the way out" end up. They joined the site with a few
hundred bucks and played the higher levels and now they have $10 left. They
lose it too fast at the next level up and don't win enough at the next level
down.
The reason I don't like this level is because there often so many
players chasing in each pot that even if you play a solid tight game you get
so many bad beats that you usually just end up breaking even in the long
run.
.25/.50: I like this level. Good solid play is generally rewarded. A
raise and a reraise will usually get you heads up. You still see players
chasing miracles, but nowhere near as much as the previous levels. The big
money makers at this level is a big ace or big king because you will still
get lots of players in the pot with any ace or king with some junky kicker
and you can usually keep raising and they'll keep calling if you hit the
flop. But that does mean to play a big pair with caution: If somebody has
an ace or king with anything they'll almost always call to see the flop. If
you have JJ or QQ try to get 1 raise in before the flop (whether you do the
raise or not) to try and weed out the crappy hands and if there is no big
card on the flop go full speed ahead, otherwise proceed with caution.
I have played at higher levels, but do not have the experience to comment on
the properly.
NO LIMIT
.01/.02: This is a total crapfest and I hate playing at this level. A guy
going "ALL IN" on the flop is just as likely to have a pocket pair of threes
that whiffed the flop as he is to have top set or have missed the flop
entirely and is just looking to bluff - there is no telling what they could
have at this level. A raise of 4-5 times the BB will usually get all but 1
player to call... if you push all in you will still probably get 1 caller
.02/.05: This is almost as bad as the previous level, but not as bad. A
good preflop raise will usually chase out the riff raff from the pot...
sometimes you can even buy the pot with a good raise and not having to push
all in.
.05/.10: At this level you are starting to see some good play from other
players. Generaly a good raise means "I have a good hand" not "I am an
idiot" like it usually does at lower levels.
.10/.25: At this level buying the pot actually means something. The pots
usually get up to $7-10 so you will get guys taking a shot at it with a
bluff sometimes. Many will say the difference between limit and no limit
hold 'em is "to play no limit, you gotta have heart" and this is the first
time I would say it applies at the micro limits. At this level you might
need to ask yourself "Do I have the heart to make this call?" at the
previous limits you usually ask yourself "How big of an idiot do I think
that guy is?"
I have never played at a higher level of NLHE online than the dime/quarter
level, so I can comment no further.
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