Would you call?

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Date: 13 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Would you call?

5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed

you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
called, he has you covered,

Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore possibly
of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.

Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although you
are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?

More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
really.

Comments on this line of thought?

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Date: 12 Dec 2006 22:13:32
From: Douglas Dunn
Subject: Re: Would you call?

Nick Wool wrote:
> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> called, he has you covered,
>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.

Can't say I like a 160 bet in to a 570 pot.

> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
> Comments on this line of thought?

I don't ever consider myself committed in a cash game. It comes down
to what % of the time I think I'm going to be behind, and how many outs
I have if I am. Then I look at the size of the pot and go from there.

Without much info on the player I pay this off. The pot is 880 and
it's only 360 to call. There is no way I can be that sure he doesn't
think AK is good, in fact your flop bet seems alot like QQ/JJ to me.
My best guess is he has TT.

Doug

Date: 13 Dec 12:28:48
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 6:13 AM, Douglas Dunn wrote:

> Nick Wool wrote:
> > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> >
> > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > called, he has you covered,
> >
> > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > possibly
> > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
> Can't say I like a 160 bet in to a 570 pot.

If he has AK, he might come over the top with a check-raise, and QQ might also
do that given the weak looking bet. I bet 160 because if I was ahead, he would
be drawing thin to 2 outs, and I am happy to charge him that small amount
(relatively to the pot) to draw. If I was behind, whatever I do he is going to
try to get the money in at the turn, and I think its hard to fold given the pot
was 565 preflop, and I only have 520 left in my stack.

>
> > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> > you
> > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > your
> > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> > really.
> > Comments on this line of thought?
>
> I don't ever consider myself committed in a cash game. It comes down
> to what % of the time I think I'm going to be behind, and how many outs
> I have if I am. Then I look at the size of the pot and go from there.
>

My question is, with about 30% of my stack in the middle preflop, is it ever
right to muck aces postflop? In this situation, the pot had 565, while I had
520 left in my stack. I had a strong feeling that he was suffering from FPS
with KK, and I didnt really want to see that K on the flop, but a call
nevertheless?

> Without much info on the player I pay this off. The pot is 880 and
> it's only 360 to call. There is no way I can be that sure he doesn't
> think AK is good, in fact your flop bet seems alot like QQ/JJ to me.
> My best guess is he has TT.
>
> Doug

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Date: 12 Dec 2006 21:17:27
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 12 2006 9:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> called, he has you covered,
>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
>
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
>
> Comments on this line of thought?

If he plays that badly as to not realize that you have aces at 5/10, and
can move you in on the flop (representing AK quite strongly), then more
power to him.

Pay the man his money.

Fell

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Date: 13 Dec 16:36:48
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 12:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Dec 12 2006 9:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> >
> > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > called, he has you covered,
> >
> > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> possibly
> > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> >
> > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> you
> > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> >
> > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > your
> > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> > really.
> >
> > Comments on this line of thought?
>
> If he plays that badly as to not realize that you have aces at 5/10, and
> can move you in on the flop (representing AK quite strongly), then more
> power to him.
>
I don't think Nick has to have AA here. He could open from the cutoff with a
wide range of hands, although he probably can't reraise with many hands. Still,
on that non-scary flop, that weak bet could be a feeler with QQ or JJ. Or he
could have overplayed AK preflop, too. I think the villain has AK more than 1/4
of the time, so I call.

> Pay the man his money.
>
> Fell
>
> --
> Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 18:33:00
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 9:36 AM, steve1127 wrote:

> On Dec 13 2006 12:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Dec 12 2006 9:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
> >
> > > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> > >
> > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > > called, he has you covered,
> > >
> > > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might
be
> > > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > possibly
> > > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> > >
> > > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> > you
> > > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> > >
> > > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > > your
> > > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him
off
> > > really.
> > >
> > > Comments on this line of thought?
> >
> > If he plays that badly as to not realize that you have aces at 5/10, and
> > can move you in on the flop (representing AK quite strongly), then more
> > power to him.
> >
> I don't think Nick has to have AA here. He could open from the cutoff with a
> wide range of hands, although he probably can't reraise with many hands.
Still,
> on that non-scary flop, that weak bet could be a feeler with QQ or JJ. Or he
> could have overplayed AK preflop, too. I think the villain has AK more than
1/4
> of the time, so I call.

> > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > called, he has you covered,

This isn't AA/KK much more often than not?

Fell
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Date: 14 Dec 17:28:10
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 9:33 PM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Dec 13 2006 9:36 AM, steve1127 wrote:
>
> > On Dec 13 2006 12:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 12 2006 9:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
> > >
> > > > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> > > >
> > > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB.
> > > > He
> > > > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > > > called, he has you covered,
> > > >
> > > > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might
> be
> > > > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > > possibly
> > > > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> > > >
> > > > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> > > you
> > > > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> > > >
> > > > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > > > your
> > > > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him
> off
> > > > really.
> > > >
> > > > Comments on this line of thought?
> > >
> > > If he plays that badly as to not realize that you have aces at 5/10, and
> > > can move you in on the flop (representing AK quite strongly), then more
> > > power to him.
> > >
> > I don't think Nick has to have AA here. He could open from the cutoff with
> > a
> > wide range of hands, although he probably can't reraise with many hands.
> Still,
> > on that non-scary flop, that weak bet could be a feeler with QQ or JJ. Or
> > he
> > could have overplayed AK preflop, too. I think the villain has AK more than
> 1/4
> > of the time, so I call.
>
> > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > > called, he has you covered,
>
> This isn't AA/KK much more often than not?
>
I think QQ plays it the same way, and JJ plays it that way maybe half the time,
depending on Nick's read on the other player. If I'm the bb, I don't
necessarily put the original raiser on a big hand, so depending on how LAG he
is, he could reraise with hands as weak as 77, and then could call the big
reraise to see if he can flop a set. Assuming I have that read on the other
player, and I'm Nick, I can then reraise with QQ and maybe JJ and AK. So, when
you take those hands into the mix, and couple it with the weak flop bet, if I'm
the bb I put Nick on KK, QQ or JJ, with the KK making a weird bet to try to get
a call and the QQ and JJ making a feeble attempt to take the pot but leave
enough chips to get away from the c-r. So, although a c-r bluff or value bet
with AK (or 77 or whatever) would make more sense then the turn stop-n-go, I
think the latter is possible too.

I have no idea if that paragraph is going to make sense to anyone but me.

> Fell
> --
> Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com

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Date: 15 Dec 2006 00:03:40
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 14 2006 10:28 AM, steve1127 wrote:

> I have no idea if that paragraph is going to make sense to anyone but me.

Nope, because Nick put in a big re-re-raise. This is not something that
JJ- would do. QQ might do it, intending to muck against a jam, but that's
about it. AA/KK and maybe QQ (at the highest levels, maybe AK or a bluff
as well).

Fell
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:10:25
From: jarrett40
Subject: Re: Would you call?

I wouldn't have to call because I would've moved all-in on the flop.

jarrett40

Nick Wool wrote:
> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> called, he has you covered,
>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
>
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
>
> Comments on this line of thought?
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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Date: 13 Dec 19:12:40
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 7:10 PM, jarrett40 wrote:

> I wouldn't have to call because I would've moved all-in on the flop.
>
> jarrett40

why?

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Date: 13 Dec 19:18:22
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 7:12 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

>
>
>
> On Dec 13 2006 7:10 PM, jarrett40 wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't have to call because I would've moved all-in on the flop.
> >
> > jarrett40
>
> why?

to expand on my question...I had 800 in my stack, he had more...he raised to
80...isnt jamming a bit of an overkill?

Well yes, if I knew he had KK, I would have jammed, but he reraised an LP
raise...doesnt indicate that he had KK, or even a big hand really. Once he
called my big reraise, I can narrow the hand range to KK/QQ/AK, I skipped AA
because that would be very unlikely.

Is it better to jam now, or try to draw him into the pot but not offering him
the right odds? As I see it, both AK and QQ can probably call the reraise to
280....but might very likely fold to a jam to 800. Thoughts?

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 09:35:23
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 12 2006 9:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> called, he has you covered,
>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
>
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
>
> Comments on this line of thought?

I call him. If he has KK or TT, then so be it (TT would suck, but that's
what I would expect more often than KK).

The way I see it, you showed tremendous strength preflop, and major
weakness on the flop. The push seems to be in response to this weakness,
but I could be wrong.

~ MysteriAce

"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"

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Date: 13 Dec 19:08:00
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 5:35 PM, MysteriAce wrote:

> On Dec 12 2006 9:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> >
> > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > called, he has you covered,
> >
> > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> possibly
> > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> >
> > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> you
> > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> >
> > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > your
> > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> > really.
> >
> > Comments on this line of thought?
>
> I call him. If he has KK or TT, then so be it (TT would suck, but that's
> what I would expect more often than KK).
>
> The way I see it, you showed tremendous strength preflop, and major
> weakness on the flop. The push seems to be in response to this weakness,
> but I could be wrong.
>
> ~ MysteriAce
>
> "Ashes and diamonds
> Foe and friend
> We were all equal in the end"

It was KK that he had....if it wasnt a case of FPS preflop as one poster had
explained, then it definitely was the case post flop....Unless he has me as a
complete idiot, I am not going to put any more money into that pot unless I had
at least AK. Yet he checked on a K high flop....Why?

If I was stealing with my big reraise preflop, once that was called, I've got to
put this guy on a hand, right? And even a donkey like me isnt likely to risk
anymore money trying to buy this pot without at least TPTK, which would be AK.
If I did have AK, having put so much money into building the pot preflop, am I
likely to muck now with TPTK given that the pot is now bigger than my stack? So
why the need for the check?

I think rather than asking whether my play was right or not, I was more
interested in how other player would react in this situation.

For what it is worth, once I've got about 30% of my stack in preflop with aces,
I am not folding this hand whatever happens. My rationale is that they have
paid way over the odds to draw, and if they hit, gl to them and I will pay them
off. On a drawing flop, I am always jamming, but on a unco-ordinated flop such
as this, I would be happy to bet small (relatively to the pot only,160 is still
a tidy extra sum to win) to induce calls, seeing as they'll be drawing to 2
outs, or runner runners.

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 12:01:45
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 2:08 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

> It was KK that he had....if it wasnt a case of FPS preflop as one poster had
> explained, then it definitely was the case post flop....Unless he has me as a
> complete idiot, I am not going to put any more money into that pot unless I
had
> at least AK. Yet he checked on a K high flop....Why?

That was me challenging whether it was FPS.

Continuing that thought...if he's calling as a trap there to keep you in
the hand with JJ/TT/99 or whatever, he has to check the flop there when he
hits top set, as the king is obviously a bad card for those hands. If
he wants to get any more money out of the hand, checking is the only path
from there.

I'd be surprised if you would "never put any more money into the pot
unless you had at least AK," given that your re-raise was flat called and
the board came rather boring save for the king.
At least some percentage of the time you're going to continuation bet this.

> If I was stealing with my big reraise preflop, once that was called, I've
got to
> put this guy on a hand, right? And even a donkey like me isnt likely to risk
> anymore money trying to buy this pot without at least TPTK, which would be
AK.
> If I did have AK, having put so much money into building the pot preflop, am
I
> likely to muck now with TPTK given that the pot is now bigger than my stack?
So
> why the need for the check?

I don't this is true. If you're on a steal with the big re-raise, most
people (not you necessarily, but unless you've played with him before that
he can't know that) are going to follow through on that flop. It's one
thing if it came down QJT or something where you've got to figure the guy
calling hit all sorts of things on the board, but K52? It either hit or
missed his calling hand, and given you put in $280 on a bluff already, you
almost have to fire and hope he missed.

If he called with JJ-99 himself, he's going to give up to a bluff with the
way you've represented the hand.

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Date: 13 Dec 20:14:26
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 8:01 PM, GrouchySmurf1002 wrote:

> On Dec 13 2006 2:08 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> > It was KK that he had....if it wasnt a case of FPS preflop as one poster had
> > explained, then it definitely was the case post flop....Unless he has me as
> > a
> > complete idiot, I am not going to put any more money into that pot unless I
> had
> > at least AK. Yet he checked on a K high flop....Why?
>
> That was me challenging whether it was FPS.
>
> Continuing that thought...if he's calling as a trap there to keep you in
> the hand with JJ/TT/99 or whatever, he has to check the flop there when he
> hits top set, as the king is obviously a bad card for those hands. If
> he wants to get any more money out of the hand, checking is the only path
> from there.
>
> I'd be surprised if you would "never put any more money into the pot
> unless you had at least AK," given that your re-raise was flat called and
> the board came rather boring save for the king.
> At least some percentage of the time you're going to continuation bet this.
>
>
> > If I was stealing with my big reraise preflop, once that was called, I've
> got to
> > put this guy on a hand, right? And even a donkey like me isnt likely to
> > risk
> > anymore money trying to buy this pot without at least TPTK, which would be
> AK.
> > If I did have AK, having put so much money into building the pot preflop, am
> I
> > likely to muck now with TPTK given that the pot is now bigger than my stack?
> So
> > why the need for the check?
>
> I don't this is true. If you're on a steal with the big re-raise, most
> people (not you necessarily, but unless you've played with him before that
> he can't know that) are going to follow through on that flop. It's one
> thing if it came down QJT or something where you've got to figure the guy
> calling hit all sorts of things on the board, but K52? It either hit or
> missed his calling hand, and given you put in $280 on a bluff already, you
> almost have to fire and hope he missed.
>
> If he called with JJ-99 himself, he's going to give up to a bluff with the
> way you've represented the hand.

It may just be me, but I cannot see that many hands calling 280 preflop, with me
only having 520 behind...I put him squarely on AK/KK/QQ...to be honest, I cant
really see TT/JJ calling, and even QQ would be a marginal here. So if I was
bluffing, once my reraise was called, a King high flop would make me very wary.
I *might* risk another bet on a rags flop...but anuthing above a Q on the flop
would stop me in my tracks if I was bluffing.

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 12:27:48
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 3:14 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

> It may just be me, but I cannot see that many hands calling 280 preflop,
with me
> only having 520 behind...I put him squarely on AK/KK/QQ...to be honest, I
cant
> really see TT/JJ calling, and even QQ would be a marginal here. So if I was
> bluffing, once my reraise was called, a King high flop would make me very
wary.
> I *might* risk another bet on a rags flop...but anuthing above a Q on the
flop
> would stop me in my tracks if I was bluffing.

Well, I'm basing everything on a higher level of thinking between the two
of you, which is what would be needed for his thought process to be more
than "i'm going to trap with KK."

If he's capable of putting you on a move with a re-steal to 280, he should
be capable of calling with less than QQ. Though you're right, he
probably jams if he has you on a re-steal to avoid you hitting with
something like K6 or other one over garbage. Hmm....perhaps you're right.

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Date: 14 Dec 2006 23:58:58
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Would you call?

I like going all in afeter he reraised preflop. I know everyone will say
you dont want to run him off, you want his action. The chances of him
folding are smaller after his raise. Even if he does fold I still like
it. You win the pot with absolutley no risk to lose. More importantly
are the psychological advantages. By moving in you tell him your arent
fucking around. I dont want people to feel free to reraise me. I would
even say something like " Thats what you get for raising me". This might
cause him to raise you only with a good hand, making him more
predictable. If thats what he does then you are prepared for it. What
you did was fine, but you put in a third of your stack leaving you with
fewer options after the flop. There was no way you were going to fold.

Date: 13 Dec 2006 08:57:52
From: Ian Stuart
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 4:25 AM, Nick Wool wrote:

> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB.

Why did you raise 30? Is this your standard raise in this situation
(folded to you in LP) or were you trying to encourage someone to come
along? Based on your previous plays do you think anyone might draw any
opnions on the actual strength of your hand based on your bet? Had you
been attacking the blinds much, or doing anything to give that impression?

> He reraised to 80.

You've had the benefit of playing with this guy (unless you've just joined
the table) so what do you make of his action? Is he suspicious of you
stealing the blinds and playing back at you? Would he play back at you
with nothing or would he need some kind of hand?

>You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB called,

Without knowing anything about him you have to assume he has something,
but not a monster. Given that you were first in in LP QQ,KK would almost
certainly reraise. He could be being tricky, but you've not given us any
kind of read on him to help us determine if he's that kind of player.
My range for an unknown player up to this point is: most likely - medium
pair, next likely - strong ace or QQ, less likely - low pair, KQ or suited
connectors, least likely AA, KK or junk.

> he has you covered,

>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.

I really do not like this bet. Less than 1/3 pot is just going to confuse
him and as a consequence his response is very likely going to confuse you.
Personally, given your stack size and the size of the pot, I'm pushing the
flop no matter what it brings.
>
> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?

This is where the confusion of your flop bet sets in. The turn didn't
bring anything for him to worry about if he had a strong hand on the flop,
so why did he suddenly wake up? If he had KK and had just called your weak
flop bet instead of raising you, I'd really expect him to check again and
see if you would continue to attack. Has he suddenly decided that your
flop bet was weakness and thinks you might cave in if challenged? Maybe,
but I would expect him at least to be on a semi-bluff rather than nothing
- JQ and big balls maybe? Maybe he has pocket tens and just turned a set.
Hmmmm, pocket tens looks very possible.

>
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
>
> Comments on this line of thought?

A decent bet on the flop would have saved you this uncertainty. You seem
to be saying you bet weak because you were worried about him having KK,
but your bet didn't give you any real information did it? It also had the
potential to confuse him and maybe leave him wondering if you were really
as strong as your preflop play suggested, so now you don't know if he's
attacking because he's strong or if it's because he now thinks you're
weak. Personally, unless he has a real slow brain I think he would have
attacked you on the flop if he thought you were weak, so I think he liked
the ten.

End of the day, I ain't throwing away aces heads-up preflop for a
pot-sized bet that puts me all-in, so I call. If he's got a set, so be it.

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Date: 13 Dec 18:41:17
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 4:57 PM, Ian Stuart wrote:

> On Dec 13 2006 4:25 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> >
> > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB.
>
> Why did you raise 30? Is this your standard raise in this situation
> (folded to you in LP) or were you trying to encourage someone to come
> along? Based on your previous plays do you think anyone might draw any
> opnions on the actual strength of your hand based on your bet? Had you
> been attacking the blinds much, or doing anything to give that impression?
>

Sometimes you raise, some times you fold in LP, no matter what you got....that
way, your big pairs are not so eaisly read.

30 because its 3x bb.

> > He reraised to 80.
>
> You've had the benefit of playing with this guy (unless you've just joined
> the table) so what do you make of his action? Is he suspicious of you
> stealing the blinds and playing back at you? Would he play back at you
> with nothing or would he need some kind of hand?

Solid guy preflop...but aggressive post....

> >You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB called,
>
> Without knowing anything about him you have to assume he has something,
> but not a monster. Given that you were first in in LP QQ,KK would almost
> certainly reraise. He could be being tricky, but you've not given us any
> kind of read on him to help us determine if he's that kind of player.
> My range for an unknown player up to this point is: most likely - medium
> pair, next likely - strong ace or QQ, less likely - low pair, KQ or suited
> connectors, least likely AA, KK or junk.
>
> > he has you covered,
>
> >
> > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> possibly
> > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
>
> I really do not like this bet. Less than 1/3 pot is just going to confuse
> him and as a consequence his response is very likely going to confuse you.
> Personally, given your stack size and the size of the pot, I'm pushing the
> flop no matter what it brings.

given our stacks, and the fact that I am not going fold, I dont mind a1/3 pot
bet (still 160 bucks though) because if I am ahead, it will always be a mistake
for him to call on 2 outs....if I am behind and he comes over the top...well, I
am not folding anyway, right? So its got to be +ev?

> > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> you
> > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
>
> This is where the confusion of your flop bet sets in. The turn didn't
> bring anything for him to worry about if he had a strong hand on the flop,
> so why did he suddenly wake up? If he had KK and had just called your weak
> flop bet instead of raising you, I'd really expect him to check again and
> see if you would continue to attack. Has he suddenly decided that your
> flop bet was weakness and thinks you might cave in if challenged? Maybe,
> but I would expect him at least to be on a semi-bluff rather than nothing
> - JQ and big balls maybe? Maybe he has pocket tens and just turned a set.
> Hmmmm, pocket tens looks very possible.

JQ I cannot see...even the most loose maniac could not put in 30% of the stack
against a big reraise preflop, surely?

The range of hands I have him on is KK/AK/QQ. If as you say, we are not folding
anyway, might it not be better to let him think he can push us off the hand?

> >
> > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > your
> > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> > really.
> >
> > Comments on this line of thought?
>
> A decent bet on the flop would have saved you this uncertainty. You seem
> to be saying you bet weak because you were worried about him having KK,
> but your bet didn't give you any real information did it? It also had the
> potential to confuse him and maybe leave him wondering if you were really
> as strong as your preflop play suggested, so now you don't know if he's
> attacking because he's strong or if it's because he now thinks you're
> weak. Personally, unless he has a real slow brain I think he would have
> attacked you on the flop if he thought you were weak, so I think he liked
> the ten.

> End of the day, I ain't throwing away aces heads-up preflop for a
> pot-sized bet that puts me all-in, so I call. If he's got a set, so be it.

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Date: 13 Dec 18:52:02
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 1:41 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

>
>
>
> On Dec 13 2006 4:57 PM, Ian Stuart wrote:
>
> > On Dec 13 2006 4:25 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
> >
> > > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> > >
> > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB.
> >
> > Why did you raise 30? Is this your standard raise in this situation
> > (folded to you in LP) or were you trying to encourage someone to come
> > along? Based on your previous plays do you think anyone might draw any
> > opnions on the actual strength of your hand based on your bet? Had you
> > been attacking the blinds much, or doing anything to give that impression?
> >
>
> Sometimes you raise, some times you fold in LP, no matter what you got....that
> way, your big pairs are not so eaisly read.

I sure you didn't mean this, but just to clarify -- you're not saying that
sometimes you'll fold no matter what you're dealt so as to add deception to your
game, right? Like, you won't sometimes fold KK just to be tricky?

>
> 30 because its 3x bb.
>
> > > He reraised to 80.
> >
> > You've had the benefit of playing with this guy (unless you've just joined
> > the table) so what do you make of his action? Is he suspicious of you
> > stealing the blinds and playing back at you? Would he play back at you
> > with nothing or would he need some kind of hand?
>
> Solid guy preflop...but aggressive post....
>
> > >You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB called,
> >
> > Without knowing anything about him you have to assume he has something,
> > but not a monster. Given that you were first in in LP QQ,KK would almost
> > certainly reraise. He could be being tricky, but you've not given us any
> > kind of read on him to help us determine if he's that kind of player.
> > My range for an unknown player up to this point is: most likely - medium
> > pair, next likely - strong ace or QQ, less likely - low pair, KQ or suited
> > connectors, least likely AA, KK or junk.
> >
> > > he has you covered,
> >
> > >
> > > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might
> > > be
> > > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > possibly
> > > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> >
> >
> > I really do not like this bet. Less than 1/3 pot is just going to confuse
> > him and as a consequence his response is very likely going to confuse you.
> > Personally, given your stack size and the size of the pot, I'm pushing the
> > flop no matter what it brings.
>
> given our stacks, and the fact that I am not going fold, I dont mind a1/3 pot
> bet (still 160 bucks though) because if I am ahead, it will always be a
> mistake
> for him to call on 2 outs....if I am behind and he comes over the top...well,
> I
> am not folding anyway, right? So its got to be +ev?
>
> > > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> > you
> > > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> >
> > This is where the confusion of your flop bet sets in. The turn didn't
> > bring anything for him to worry about if he had a strong hand on the flop,
> > so why did he suddenly wake up? If he had KK and had just called your weak
> > flop bet instead of raising you, I'd really expect him to check again and
> > see if you would continue to attack. Has he suddenly decided that your
> > flop bet was weakness and thinks you might cave in if challenged? Maybe,
> > but I would expect him at least to be on a semi-bluff rather than nothing
> > - JQ and big balls maybe? Maybe he has pocket tens and just turned a set.
> > Hmmmm, pocket tens looks very possible.
>
> JQ I cannot see...even the most loose maniac could not put in 30% of the stack
> against a big reraise preflop, surely?
>
> The range of hands I have him on is KK/AK/QQ. If as you say, we are not
> folding
> anyway, might it not be better to let him think he can push us off the hand?
>
> > >
> > > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > > your
> > > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him
> > > off
> > > really.
> > >
> > > Comments on this line of thought?
> >
> > A decent bet on the flop would have saved you this uncertainty. You seem
> > to be saying you bet weak because you were worried about him having KK,
> > but your bet didn't give you any real information did it? It also had the
> > potential to confuse him and maybe leave him wondering if you were really
> > as strong as your preflop play suggested, so now you don't know if he's
> > attacking because he's strong or if it's because he now thinks you're
> > weak. Personally, unless he has a real slow brain I think he would have
> > attacked you on the flop if he thought you were weak, so I think he liked
> > the ten.
>
>
>
> > End of the day, I ain't throwing away aces heads-up preflop for a
> > pot-sized bet that puts me all-in, so I call. If he's got a set, so be it.
>
>

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Date: 13 Dec 19:11:40
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 6:52 PM, steve1127 wrote:

>
>
>
> On Dec 13 2006 1:41 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 13 2006 4:57 PM, Ian Stuart wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 13 2006 4:25 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
> > >
> > > > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> > > >
> > > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why did you raise 30? Is this your standard raise in this situation
> > > (folded to you in LP) or were you trying to encourage someone to come
> > > along? Based on your previous plays do you think anyone might draw any
> > > opnions on the actual strength of your hand based on your bet? Had you
> > > been attacking the blinds much, or doing anything to give that impression?
> > >
> >
> > Sometimes you raise, some times you fold in LP, no matter what you
> > got....that
> > way, your big pairs are not so eaisly read.
>
> I sure you didn't mean this, but just to clarify -- you're not saying that
> sometimes you'll fold no matter what you're dealt so as to add deception to
> your
> game, right? Like, you won't sometimes fold KK just to be tricky?
>

:) I might be good, but not that good....

I mean that I would sometimes fold, and somtimes raise with trash in EP. With
big Pairs, I nearly always raise although I might limp now and then, but if I do
limp, I am careful not to get busted unless I improve...With marginal hands,
sometimes I muck, sometimes I limp, and sometimes I raise.

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:02:00
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 1:52 PM, steve1127 wrote:

> On Dec 13 2006 1:41 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 13 2006 4:57 PM, Ian Stuart wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 13 2006 4:25 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
> > >
> > > > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> > > >
> > > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to
BB.
> > >
> > > Why did you raise 30? Is this your standard raise in this situation
> > > (folded to you in LP) or were you trying to encourage someone to come
> > > along? Based on your previous plays do you think anyone might draw any
> > > opnions on the actual strength of your hand based on your bet? Had you
> > > been attacking the blinds much, or doing anything to give that
impression?
> > >
> >
> > Sometimes you raise, some times you fold in LP, no matter what you
got....that
> > way, your big pairs are not so eaisly read.
>
> I sure you didn't mean this, but just to clarify -- you're not saying that
> sometimes you'll fold no matter what you're dealt so as to add deception to
your
> game, right? Like, you won't sometimes fold KK just to be tricky?

What if you did fold AA preflop face up in a live game? Would that help
out later on?

> >
> > 30 because its 3x bb.
> >
> > > > He reraised to 80.
> > >
> > > You've had the benefit of playing with this guy (unless you've just
joined
> > > the table) so what do you make of his action? Is he suspicious of you
> > > stealing the blinds and playing back at you? Would he play back at you
> > > with nothing or would he need some kind of hand?
> >
> > Solid guy preflop...but aggressive post....
> >
> > > >You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB called,
> > >
> > > Without knowing anything about him you have to assume he has something,
> > > but not a monster. Given that you were first in in LP QQ,KK would almost
> > > certainly reraise. He could be being tricky, but you've not given us any
> > > kind of read on him to help us determine if he's that kind of player.
> > > My range for an unknown player up to this point is: most likely - medium
> > > pair, next likely - strong ace or QQ, less likely - low pair, KQ or
suited
> > > connectors, least likely AA, KK or junk.
> > >
> > > > he has you covered,
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he
might
> > > > be
> > > > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > > possibly
> > > > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> > >
> > >
> > > I really do not like this bet. Less than 1/3 pot is just going to confuse
> > > him and as a consequence his response is very likely going to confuse
you.
> > > Personally, given your stack size and the size of the pot, I'm pushing
the
> > > flop no matter what it brings.
> >
> > given our stacks, and the fact that I am not going fold, I dont mind a1/3
pot
> > bet (still 160 bucks though) because if I am ahead, it will always be a
> > mistake
> > for him to call on 2 outs....if I am behind and he comes over the
top...well,
> > I
> > am not folding anyway, right? So its got to be +ev?
> >
> > > > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because
although
> > > you
> > > > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> > >
> > > This is where the confusion of your flop bet sets in. The turn didn't
> > > bring anything for him to worry about if he had a strong hand on the
flop,
> > > so why did he suddenly wake up? If he had KK and had just called your
weak
> > > flop bet instead of raising you, I'd really expect him to check again and
> > > see if you would continue to attack. Has he suddenly decided that your
> > > flop bet was weakness and thinks you might cave in if challenged? Maybe,
> > > but I would expect him at least to be on a semi-bluff rather than nothing
> > > - JQ and big balls maybe? Maybe he has pocket tens and just turned a set.
> > > Hmmmm, pocket tens looks very possible.
> >
> > JQ I cannot see...even the most loose maniac could not put in 30% of the
stack
> > against a big reraise preflop, surely?
> >
> > The range of hands I have him on is KK/AK/QQ. If as you say, we are not
> > folding
> > anyway, might it not be better to let him think he can push us off the
hand?
> >
> > > >
> > > > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30%
of
> > > > your
> > > > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him
> > > > off
> > > > really.
> > > >
> > > > Comments on this line of thought?
> > >
> > > A decent bet on the flop would have saved you this uncertainty. You seem
> > > to be saying you bet weak because you were worried about him having KK,
> > > but your bet didn't give you any real information did it? It also had the
> > > potential to confuse him and maybe leave him wondering if you were really
> > > as strong as your preflop play suggested, so now you don't know if he's
> > > attacking because he's strong or if it's because he now thinks you're
> > > weak. Personally, unless he has a real slow brain I think he would have
> > > attacked you on the flop if he thought you were weak, so I think he liked
> > > the ten.
> >
> >
> >
> > > End of the day, I ain't throwing away aces heads-up preflop for a
> > > pot-sized bet that puts me all-in, so I call. If he's got a set, so be
it.
> >
> >

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 12:44:21
From: Ian Stuart
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 13 2006 6:41 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

> On Dec 13 2006 4:57 PM, Ian Stuart wrote:
>
> > On Dec 13 2006 4:25 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
> >
> > > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> > >
> > > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB.
> >
> > Why did you raise 30? Is this your standard raise in this situation
> > (folded to you in LP) or were you trying to encourage someone to come
> > along? Based on your previous plays do you think anyone might draw any
> > opnions on the actual strength of your hand based on your bet? Had you
> > been attacking the blinds much, or doing anything to give that impression?
> >
>
> Sometimes you raise, some times you fold in LP, no matter what you
got....that
> way, your big pairs are not so eaisly read.

> 30 because its 3x bb.
>
> > > He reraised to 80.
> >
> > You've had the benefit of playing with this guy (unless you've just joined
> > the table) so what do you make of his action? Is he suspicious of you
> > stealing the blinds and playing back at you? Would he play back at you
> > with nothing or would he need some kind of hand?
>
> Solid guy preflop...but aggressive post....

That's a bit of a generalisation that doesn't really help us determine
whether or not he thinks you might be at it. It's a start, but not enough.
It would also be useful to know how you believe others at the table
perceived you. To get the most information out of the preflop action you
need to try and gauge how much strength he was crediting you with, often a
difficult task when you are in a classic steal situation.

>
> > >You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB called,
> >
> > Without knowing anything about him you have to assume he has something,
> > but not a monster. Given that you were first in in LP QQ,KK would almost
> > certainly reraise. He could be being tricky, but you've not given us any
> > kind of read on him to help us determine if he's that kind of player.
> > My range for an unknown player up to this point is: most likely - medium
> > pair, next likely - strong ace or QQ, less likely - low pair, KQ or suited
> > connectors, least likely AA, KK or junk.
> >
> > > he has you covered,
> >
> > >
> > > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he
might be
> > > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > possibly
> > > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> >
> >
> > I really do not like this bet. Less than 1/3 pot is just going to confuse
> > him and as a consequence his response is very likely going to confuse you.
> > Personally, given your stack size and the size of the pot, I'm pushing the
> > flop no matter what it brings.
>
> given our stacks, and the fact that I am not going fold, I dont mind a1/3 pot
> bet (still 160 bucks though) because if I am ahead, it will always be a
mistake
> for him to call on 2 outs....if I am behind and he comes over the
top...well, I
> am not folding anyway, right? So its got to be +ev?

Personally, given the size of the pot in relation to your stack, I'd have
been quite happy to try and take it down there and then (I'm pretending I
don't know what he had now obviously :)). I'm also not as happy as you are
to put him on two outs, simply because the preflop situation gives him,
potentially, quite a wide range of hands. Granted, no matter what he has
he can't have a lot of outs on that board (5 at most unless he's mad
enough to call with 34), but the problem for me is that I don't know what
his outs are.
I want to either take the pot or commit myself and deny him the
opportunity of outplaying me on subsequent rounds.
Even if your play on that specific hand is +EV there is another aspect to
consider. You bet weak when, to all intents and purposes, you were very
strong. If you are prone to doing that you run the risk of making your
future bluffs more obvious, or easier for opponents to justify calling.
Always put them to a tough decission and you make the game a lot harder
for them.

>
> > > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because
although
> > you
> > > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> >
> > This is where the confusion of your flop bet sets in. The turn didn't
> > bring anything for him to worry about if he had a strong hand on the flop,
> > so why did he suddenly wake up? If he had KK and had just called your weak
> > flop bet instead of raising you, I'd really expect him to check again and
> > see if you would continue to attack. Has he suddenly decided that your
> > flop bet was weakness and thinks you might cave in if challenged? Maybe,
> > but I would expect him at least to be on a semi-bluff rather than nothing
> > - JQ and big balls maybe? Maybe he has pocket tens and just turned a set.
> > Hmmmm, pocket tens looks very possible.
>
> JQ I cannot see...even the most loose maniac could not put in 30% of the
stack
> against a big reraise preflop, surely?

Normally yes, that's why it was in the 'less likely' section of my preflop
range. It's not impossible though and it's liklihood increases if he
perceives you to be a blind stealer. Here's the scenario. You bet, he puts
you on a steel and reraises you, cause he is the man!!! Oh you've reraised
right back!! Hmmm, maybe you're not stealing. Or maybe you know that he
knows you're at it. Hmmmm. JQ sooooted can hit a lot of flops, He'll pull
one off and see what happens. Wouldn't like people to think he can be
pushed around.

>
> The range of hands I have him on is KK/AK/QQ. If as you say, we are not
folding
> anyway, might it not be better to let him think he can push us off the hand?

I tighter range than mine under the circumstances but we've done that one.
If that was your intention then fair enough. However, your original post
did not make it very clear what your intention was when you made the bet.
There was a suggestion that you were already very wary of KK at that point
so if you bet small as a probe why didn't you go with your instinct when
he continued to show interest? That's why I think you maybe confused
things with that small bet. On that hand it's academic as neither of us
were folding, but every bet should have a clear purpose and it seems to me
yours didn't.

>
> > >
> > > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > > your
> > > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him
off
> > > really.
> > >
> > > Comments on this line of thought?
> >
> > A decent bet on the flop would have saved you this uncertainty. You seem
> > to be saying you bet weak because you were worried about him having KK,
> > but your bet didn't give you any real information did it? It also had the
> > potential to confuse him and maybe leave him wondering if you were really
> > as strong as your preflop play suggested, so now you don't know if he's
> > attacking because he's strong or if it's because he now thinks you're
> > weak. Personally, unless he has a real slow brain I think he would have
> > attacked you on the flop if he thought you were weak, so I think he liked
> > the ten.
>
>
>
> > End of the day, I ain't throwing away aces heads-up preflop for a
> > pot-sized bet that puts me all-in, so I call. If he's got a set, so be it.

None of us are, and unless the money had been a lot deaper I doubt many
would have had a different result. That doesn't mean that there are no
lessons to be learned though.

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Date: 13 Dec 16:31:23
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 12 2006 11:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

>
> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> called, he has you covered,
>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
>
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
>
> Comments on this line of thought?

I think I probably call. AK is very possible. So are TT and KK, but I actually
think AK is the most likely hand he has.

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 06:34:33
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 12 2006 11:25 PM, Nick Wool wrote:

> You dont really like the K, because you think he might be suffering from FPS
with KK

I don't know that it's necessarily FPS. Does he have a read on you that
you're aware of? If he perceives you as a solid player, calling here
might be the smart play.

You raised in steal position, so he doesn't have to give you credit for
much of a hand. Then he raises to test your raise, and you respond saying
you in fact have a real hand, but real-hand doesn't have to be a big pair.
You could have AA down to maybe TT, AK, and possibly less.

If he jams the KK now, your likely calling range shrivels to AA and maybe
the other KK, and if you feel committed, he feels lucky AK. So he's
got a 50/50, 70/30, and 20/80 situation. So pushing is slightly -EV for
him if that's how he perceives you responding. However if he calls, he
keeps the underpairs in the range and now makes him a decent favorite
against your range.

> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?

Well, this is the line I would take if I just called with either hand, for
this reason. You're in a complete guessing game as to whether he delayed
check raised you, whether he just improved, or is just making a play.

> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.

I don't have to pay him off if I think he's got KK. The money in the pot
is gone, I still have $500 left. The problem is that it's an awful fold
if he's got anything else. (TT,55,22 aside)

Barring a laser read, I go ahead and pay him and get the 'nh' ready in the
chat box.

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 06:16:04
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Would you call?

Date: 13 Dec 2006 20:57:21
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Would you call?

Nick Wool wrote:
> 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
>
> you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> called, he has you covered,
>
> Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore possibly
> of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
>
> Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although you
> are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
>
> More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of your
> stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> really.
>
> Comments on this line of thought?

I don't like the line of thought of that last paragraph. How much you
put in does not matter. All that matters is how much is in there and
how much it will cost to get a shot at it. You are not in a tournament
and you are not pot-committed. And how is $440 only 30% of $800?

In any case: The pot is 1240 and you have 360 left in your stack. He
probably has a set more often than not but he will have AK or something
else a fair percentage of the time and you are getting a really good
price and should call. Your small bet on the flop may have brought this
on. Let's hope so.

Or I need to go to bed and I've done all the math wrong. One or the
other.

Will in New Haven

--

"There is a road, no simple highwayBetween the dawn and the dark of
night
And if you go, no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone"
Robert Hunter, Greatful Dead, "Ripple" off AMERICAN BEAUTY

>
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Date: 14 Dec 10:59:22
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 14 2006 4:57 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:

> Nick Wool wrote:
> > 5/10 NL ring game, 9 handed
> >
> > you have AA in cut off, folded to you. You raised to 30, Folded to BB. He
> > reraised to 80. You have 800 in your stack, you raised again to 280. BB
> > called, he has you covered,
> >
> > Flop K52 rainbow. You dont really like the K, because you think he might be
> > suffering from FPS with KK, or made a poor call with AK, with a remore
> > possibly
> > of QQ...BB checked...you bet 160, BB called.
> >
> > Turn is a T, stil rainbow board. BB Jammed, Do you call because although
> > you
> > are behind to KK, you are ahead of AK...?
> >
> > More importantly, even if you are behind to KK...you've put about 30% of
> > your
> > stack into the pot preflop, and if KK had got lucky, you got to pay him off
> > really.
> >
> > Comments on this line of thought?
>
> I don't like the line of thought of that last paragraph. How much you
> put in does not matter. All that matters is how much is in there and
> how much it will cost to get a shot at it. You are not in a tournament
> and you are not pot-committed. And how is $440 only 30% of $800?
>
> In any case: The pot is 1240 and you have 360 left in your stack. He
> probably has a set more often than not but he will have AK or something
> else a fair percentage of the time and you are getting a really good
> price and should call. Your small bet on the flop may have brought this
> on. Let's hope so.
>
> Or I need to go to bed and I've done all the math wrong. One or the
> other.
>
> Will in New Haven
>

Let me clarify my last paragraph....once I got about 30% of my stack in preflop
(280 out of 800) with aces, I am going bust whatever happens, seeing as the pot
is not bigger than my stack (565 compared to 520). I meant thoughts on this
line of thoughts.

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Date: 14 Dec 19:02:10
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Would you call?

> >
>
> Let me clarify my last paragraph....once I got about 30% of my stack in
> preflop
> (280 out of 800) with aces, I am going bust whatever happens, seeing as the
> pot
> is not bigger than my stack (565 compared to 520). I meant thoughts on this
> line of thoughts.

So why not check? Seriously, I've been thinking about this, if you put him
squarely on KK/QQ/JJ/AK, then betting will probably chase QQ and JJ, and it's
all going in anyway with KK or AK, so why not see if he'll take a stab on the
turn with an underpair?

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Date: 14 Dec 19:15:59
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Would you call?

On Dec 14 2006 7:02 PM, steve1127 wrote:

> > >
> >
> > Let me clarify my last paragraph....once I got about 30% of my stack in
> > preflop
> > (280 out of 800) with aces, I am going bust whatever happens, seeing as the
> > pot
> > is not bigger than my stack (565 compared to 520). I meant thoughts on
> > this
> > line of thoughts.
>
> So why not check? Seriously, I've been thinking about this, if you put him
> squarely on KK/QQ/JJ/AK, then betting will probably chase QQ and JJ, and it's
> all going in anyway with KK or AK, so why not see if he'll take a stab on the
> turn with an underpair?

Checking is also good, as I have position....I could then bet on the turn if he
checks....However, if he bets small at turn, what than?

Let's say he had QQ:

Weakish looking bet at flop might lead him to think that its a continuation bet
after a big preflop bluff, might tempt him into the pot or to come over the top.
Unlikely, but might.

Checking the flop, and betting after he checked might convinced him that I was
making a play because he checked twice. Or it might make him wary, as to why I
didnt bet on the flop after raising so much preflop...

Both have their advantages and drawbacks. I choose to bet because once he made
the mistake and called that weak looking bet of 160 at flop, it would be that
much harder for him to get away with QQ...(885 in the pot, 360 left in my
stack). Checking the flop and betting at turn gives more time to think...

What I didnt want to happen is for him out at turn with a bet of 40...

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Date: 13 Dec 2006 12:03:35
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Would you call?

> If he sucked out, he sucked out. Minimizing your losses on 80/20's is
> much less important than maximizing your gains.

Very good point here.