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Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:46:31
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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Anyone have any principles for this, like whether you do it
in or out of position, to how much action, etc?
Some possibilities:
Breaking an 8,7 to draw smooth to a wheel, say 87532.
My 'standard' game for this is what's being played at Stars,
so my wild guess is never or almost never.
Breaking a 9 to draw smooth.
Breaking a 9 to draw rough.
Breaking a 9 to draw horribly (straight and multiway
pot).
Breaking a T to draw smooth.
Breaking a T to draw rough.
Breaking a T to draw horribly.
I'd guess most of the horrible draw situations, you shouldn't even
be in in the first place, but you'd be better off folding.
Also, suppose you're in a situation where you suspect whether or not
you stand on your 9 or break to draw to a wheel, you're ahead in both
situations, i.e. your action player opponent is still drawing and you
suspect he's drawing worse than you are. You suspect he'll go for a
cap on the river if he connects, but you're not willing to do that without a 7
or maybe even an 8, so you're drawing to a hand you'd be willing to
bet more on, instead of standing on a hand you'd only be happy to
put in one bet with. How much EV are you sacrificing to break the 9
(in terms of likelihood of winning) and go for the 7? Both choices
leave you possibly losing the pot, either if he outdraws your 9, or
you draw worse than your 9 and lose. Drawing has you possibly
making more bets after the final draw. Your opponent may be drawing
either one or two cards to a hand as bad as a 9, as you have seen him
do this (drawing one to end up with a pair of 9s which he then bluffed
with means he must have had one to start with).
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 09:14:48
From: Jim Anderson (thejim2020)
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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Nines and tens are emergency hands you back into, that sometimes
deserve a crying call.
With one draw to go, they're worth standing pat on, if you're in
position and know your opponent is drawing (or oop if you "know" your
opponent is drawing). But, generally, I want to draw and play smooth
(86 or better).
Two of the biggest mistakes I see are paying off with a 9 or 87 when
it's clear you're beat, and/or breaking that rough hand to draw a
little better instead of folding.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 08:17:04
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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On Dec 20 2006 3:46 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> Anyone have any principles for this, like whether you do it
> in or out of position, to how much action, etc?
>
> Some possibilities:
>
> Breaking an 8,7 to draw smooth to a wheel, say 87532.
Rarely. However, against the most passive and predictable of players, you
can break it when you get raised (which means a 7, and only a 7). Folding
is probably better, though. Don't bother breaking an 876xx.
> My 'standard' game for this is what's being played at Stars,
> so my wild guess is never or almost never.
>
> Breaking a 9 to draw smooth.
When there is a lot of action early on, and people drawing 1, you are a
pretty big dog to fade two 7 low draws.
> Breaking a 9 to draw rough.
Almost never.
> Breaking a 9 to draw horribly (straight and multiway
> pot).
e.g. 96543? Never. Just muck it if it is no good.
> Breaking a T to draw smooth.
Fairly often, especially early in a hand.
> Breaking a T to draw rough.
I'm usually folding rough tens.
> Breaking a T to draw horribly.
Never.
> I'd guess most of the horrible draw situations, you shouldn't even
> be in in the first place, but you'd be better off folding.
>
> Also, suppose you're in a situation where you suspect whether or not
> you stand on your 9 or break to draw to a wheel, you're ahead in both
> situations, i.e. your action player opponent is still drawing and you
> suspect he's drawing worse than you are. You suspect he'll go for a
> cap on the river if he connects, but you're not willing to do that without a
7
> or maybe even an 8, so you're drawing to a hand you'd be willing to
> bet more on, instead of standing on a hand you'd only be happy to
> put in one bet with. How much EV are you sacrificing to break the 9
> (in terms of likelihood of winning) and go for the 7?
A lot. Its the Sklansky-esque "catastrophe" to lose a pot you had won.
Why do you want so many more bets on the river? Just take this pot and
get his stack later when you have a 7.
> Both choices
> leave you possibly losing the pot, either if he outdraws your 9, or
> you draw worse than your 9 and lose. Drawing has you possibly
> making more bets after the final draw. Your opponent may be drawing
> either one or two cards to a hand as bad as a 9, as you have seen him
> do this (drawing one to end up with a pair of 9s which he then bluffed
> with means he must have had one to start with).
Easy rap pat and passive river play. Let him bluff.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 08:51:22
From: Bronzedodger
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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On Dec 20 2006 11:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:
> > Breaking a T to draw smooth.
>
> Fairly often, especially early in a hand.
>
> > Breaking a T to draw rough.
>
> I'm usually folding rough tens.
>
> > Breaking a T to draw horribly.
>
> Never.
>
> > I'd guess most of the horrible draw situations, you shouldn't even
Poker terminology Q: is 'smooth' the best of a given hand, rough anything
but?
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 18:17:49
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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On Dec 20 2006 9:51 AM, Bronzedodger wrote:
> On Dec 20 2006 11:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > > Breaking a T to draw smooth.
> >
> > Fairly often, especially early in a hand.
> >
> > > Breaking a T to draw rough.
> >
> > I'm usually folding rough tens.
> >
> > > Breaking a T to draw horribly.
> >
> > Never.
> >
> > > I'd guess most of the horrible draw situations, you shouldn't even
>
> Poker terminology Q: is 'smooth' the best of a given hand, rough anything
> but?
Nah, 87 is a rough 8, 86 is sort of average, 85 is smooth.
98 is rough. 976 is roughish, 97 is ok, 96 or better is smooth.
T9 and T8 is rough, T7-wheel-wheel-wheel is smooth.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 20:03:46
From: Paul Popinjay
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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"FellKnight" <jordandevenport@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:df7p54x0uk.ln2@recgroups.com...
>
> Nah, 87 is a rough 8, 86 is sort of average, 85 is smooth.
>
Nah, 86 is smooth. 85 is 8-zip.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 18:00:04
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:51:22 -0800, "Bronzedodger" <a686ed@webnntp.invalid >
wrote:
>On Dec 20 2006 11:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>> > Breaking a T to draw smooth.
>> Fairly often, especially early in a hand.
>> > Breaking a T to draw rough.
>> I'm usually folding rough tens.
>> > Breaking a T to draw horribly.
>> Never.
>> > I'd guess most of the horrible draw situations, you shouldn't even
>Poker terminology Q: is 'smooth' the best of a given hand, rough anything
>but?
Smooth and rough are basically good and bad. The smoothest 8 in razz would be
8432A and the roughest one would be 87654. For one thing, a smooth 8 beats
a rough 8, but more importantly if there are still cards coming, the smooth 8
here has as many as 4 outs (the 5s) to improve to a wheel, while the best the
rough 8 can improve to even catching perfect runner-runner is 65432.
In 2-7 a draw can be rough in more ways than having high cards. Since straights
and flushes count against you, having a straight or flush draw is horrible.
So a hand like 5432 looks like a draw to the nuts, a wheel, but in reality it is
not all that great a draw. I was using smooth and rough to refer to this in a
redraw, if you break a hand like 97432 to draw to a wheel. 7432 is a good
hand to draw to, since any 5 gives you the nuts, any 6 gives you 76, and
even an 8 gives you a reasonably good hand. You'd still only do this if you
"knew" you were beat and had odds to draw.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 19:43:10
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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On Dec 20 2006 4:00 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:51:22 -0800, "Bronzedodger" <a686ed@webnntp.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 20 2006 11:17 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> >> > Breaking a T to draw smooth.
>
> >> Fairly often, especially early in a hand.
>
> >> > Breaking a T to draw rough.
>
> >> I'm usually folding rough tens.
>
> >> > Breaking a T to draw horribly.
>
> >> Never.
>
> >> > I'd guess most of the horrible draw situations, you shouldn't even
>
> >Poker terminology Q: is 'smooth' the best of a given hand, rough anything
> >but?
>
> Smooth and rough are basically good and bad. The smoothest 8 in razz would
be
> 8432A and the roughest one would be 87654. For one thing, a smooth 8 beats
> a rough 8, but more importantly if there are still cards coming, the smooth 8
> here has as many as 4 outs (the 5s) to improve to a wheel, while the best the
> rough 8 can improve to even catching perfect runner-runner is 65432.
>
> In 2-7 a draw can be rough in more ways than having high cards. Since
straights
> and flushes count against you, having a straight or flush draw is horrible.
> So a hand like 5432 looks like a draw to the nuts, a wheel, but in reality
it is
> not all that great a draw.
Um, yes it is. 6543 is not a good draw. 5432 is.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 20:08:30
From: Paul Popinjay
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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"FellKnight" <jordandevenport@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:efcp54xa4l.ln2@recgroups.com...
>
> 5432 is.
>
Can't draw much smoother.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 20:33:54
From: Jim Anderson (thejim2020)
Subject: Re: Triple Draw 2-7: break pat hands when?
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Dammit. You fuckers keep beating me to the punch. Finally, someone
wants to talk td, and I have to be here 24/7 to get a word in.
Well, screw you, creepo. I went and saw Rocky 6 tonight instead.
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