| |
Main
Date: 29 Nov 2006 10:14:12
From: Beatsy
Subject: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
- it's got to be a fold - right?
|
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 10:54:05
From: Aodhan
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
> Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
Not sure I would call with 9hTh there. Yeah, good pot, but you're risking
half your stack on a hand where most likely at least one or two are going
out, and the rest will be at half their stack. You also have no idea what
the blinds are going to do. I'd rather be 2nd or 3rd in chips against 4
crippled stacks and one huge one than needing the flop to hit me like a
truck to even continue in the hand.
> one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
Why call? You're getting marginally the right odds (~T2400 in pot for a
200 bet), but I don't like the hand much. If you had two hearts, in a
second, but if you call here for anything you are pot committed no matter
what, so might as well push all in. This is why I don't like your flop
call, you don't have enough chips to have options or fold equity. At this
point you've put in 60% of your stack, you've basically almost committed
yourself to the hand anyway.
Aodhan
____________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:55:37
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On 29 Nov 2006 10:14:12 -0800, "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
>Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
>
>Early hand
Early.
> in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
>chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers
(!) WTF?
>pre-flop (including me
>on the button with 9hTh).
WTF? Just fold. If it's early, you can fold stuff like this for big
raises. Let everyone else fight it out. You'll be down to 4 or 5
players in no time if they are calling 400 raises with 1000 stacks!
The best advice I've ever had for STTs is "bet don't call". Generally,
it's just absolutely right.
If you make a habit of calling 4/10 of your stack with suited
connectors early in sngs, you are not going to be a winning player.
> Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
>one call, 3 others fold to me, I call.
Well, you more or less have to. UTG bet 200 into a 2400 pot, and it's
now 200 to you and a 2800 pot. Your horrible pf call has put you in a
position where you are compelled to keep playing.
> Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
>200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
Call. You absolutely cannot fold now.
>I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
>We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
>giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
No. He's an idiot. He probably has AQ actually.
>Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
>put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
>more comfortable 400.
Dude, if you are down to 400, you might as well be down to 200,
because you've just fucked your tourney either way.
> As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
>- it's got to be a fold - right?
Wrong. Call and hope to get lucky. If you hit your 9 or T, don't
autofold. Consider whether the guy would bet like this if he had
anything.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 14:08:12
From: Oolon
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
I always wondered what people were thinking when they call 40% of their
stack early in tournaments with things like T9s. You should probably
go back and re-read that chapter of Sklansky. I'll bet he was talking
about 4 limpers - then, for 4% of your stack (instead of 40%) it would
be a fine call.
But as to your central question, there are times when pot odds will
determine my actions - even if it means going bust. But for me (I'm a
pretty conservative player) - I tend to err on the side of caution -
especially with large portions of my stack. I usually remind myself
that I want to play small pots with small hands and big pots with big
hands. So even if the pot is offering me 5-1 odds of hitting my nut
flush on the river, if it means busting out before hitting the money if
that 4-1 card doesn't hit, I'll probably wait until I have something
better than a drawing hand. If it's later in the tournament and I'm
getting good value on my bet when I need to win some hands or be
blinded out - then I'm quick to throw in all of my chips and cross my
fingers.
Hope that helps.
Beatsy wrote:
> I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
> book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
> of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
> fold if you don't hit the flop). That's the trouble with applying
> theories I don't yet fully understand. I accept the bad call judgement
> - I will do it less in future.
>
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
>
> thanks for the feedback so far...
>
>
> John B. wrote:
> > Go all in, bust out, join in another STT and do the same thing all over
> > again - yeah!
> >
> > Sarcasm for: You shouldn't have called that obvious overbet with those
> > cards in the FIRST PLACE!!!!
> >
> > John B.
> >
> > "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164824052.510590.208690@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> > > Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
> > >
> > > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> > > on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> > > one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> > > 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
> > >
> > > I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> > > We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> > > giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> > > Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> > > put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> > > more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> > > - it's got to be a fold - right?
> > >
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:57:34
From: Beatsy
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
A practical answer at least... ;-)
let me try again.
IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY OTHER USEFUL UNAMBIGUOUS CRITERIA will pot odds
influence your decision to call or fold in a tourney (when you can't be
busted out by calling).
If so - then under what circumstances. Do pot odds even APPLY in
tourneys fer christ sake?
PoMoFo wrote:
> You can always get pot odds on your last bet by committing most of your
> stack early with a dog of a hand.
>
> I think you are focusing on the wrong question, but if you really want an
> answer to that specific question, the answer is ... if you drink glass is
> full then call and bust out now, if your drink glass is empty then fold,
> quickly order another free drink and don't bust out til your drink gets
> there.
>
> PoMoFo
>
>
>
> "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> > river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> > won't bust out completely if you miss).
> >
|
| | |
Date: 30 Nov
From: Follow
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Nov 29 2006 1:57 PM, Beatsy wrote:
> A practical answer at least... ;-)
>
> let me try again.
>
> IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY OTHER USEFUL UNAMBIGUOUS CRITERIA will pot odds
> influence your decision to call or fold in a tourney (when you can't be
> busted out by calling).
>
> If so - then under what circumstances. Do pot odds even APPLY in
> tourneys fer christ sake?
Hillarious. So you want to know what you should have done in this particular
situation, assuming we don't critique the path you took getting there...
Ok, in this case, you push. The reasons for this are two-fold. First, is
because the player opposite you might be just as poor at decision making as you
are and you might get some fold equity out of it. The second reason, and more
likely one is that you've fucked yourself this tournament anyway and you might
as well be done with it and move on than drone on and on for another hour just
for a 6th place finish.
Follow :)
_______________________________________________________________
Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 00:24:05
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
Lets say youre the big blind and everyone goes all in in front of you. I
guess pot odds say to call with suited connectors but I would just
rather buy a lottery ticket and save the time.
|
| | | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:42:12
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Nov 29 2006 10:24 PM, ben carr wrote:
> Lets say youre the big blind and everyone goes all in in front of you. I
> guess pot odds say to call with suited connectors but I would just
> rather buy a lottery ticket and save the time.
Here is a good example of why pot odds don't always apply to tournament
situations.
If you were in a SNG with 50/30/20 payouts, and everyone went all in on
the first hand while you were in the BB, you should fold everything since
the odds are tremendous that you lock up 2nd place money by folding, with
a shot at 1st, and small blinds to work with.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_____________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:33:15
From: Beatsy
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
fold if you don't hit the flop). That's the trouble with applying
theories I don't yet fully understand. I accept the bad call judgement
- I will do it less in future.
But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
won't bust out completely if you miss).
thanks for the feedback so far...
John B. wrote:
> Go all in, bust out, join in another STT and do the same thing all over
> again - yeah!
>
> Sarcasm for: You shouldn't have called that obvious overbet with those
> cards in the FIRST PLACE!!!!
>
> John B.
>
> "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164824052.510590.208690@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> > Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
> >
> > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> > on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> > one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> > 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
> >
> > I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> > We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> > giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> > Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> > put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> > more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> > - it's got to be a fold - right?
> >
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 14:54:09
From: Aodhan
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
> I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
> book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
> of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
> fold if you don't hit the flop). That's the trouble with applying
> theories I don't yet fully understand. I accept the bad call judgement
> - I will do it less in future.
Which book? I'm betting it's a LIMIT HE book, not a NL TOURNEY book. World
of difference. If I'm in middle or late positions in a ring (cash) game,
and 4 or 5 people have limped in, I'll call with suited connectors every
day of the week, even as low as 34 or 23 depending on the game.
But, in a tournament situation where every decision like this can make or
break you and you only get one shot, I don't play that way, especially for
(basically) half my stack. With 4 people already in for that much, you're
either going to win a massive pot or be done. There was a thread a few
months ago about cheating and collusion, and why two or even three players
dumping all their chips to a partner at the beginning of the tournament
was a bad idea. Gaining a massive chip lead early with 7 players still
left isn't as sure as it seems.
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
At this point I shove all my chips in the middle and pray. I've already
commited 60% of my stack to the pot (If I was going to do anything other
than fold I would have shoved on the flop), so you're pretty much
committed to the hand, sink or swim.
Aodhan
---
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 14:01:25
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Nov 29 2006 1:33 PM, Beatsy wrote:
> I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
> book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
> of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
> fold if you don't hit the flop).
I'm pretty sure you are referring to Sklanksy's advice on Limit holdem,
cash games. Not no limit holdem STTs. Nobody is going to recommend that
you call 40% of your stack, early in a NL STT, with a suited connector
because there are multiple callers in front of you.
To put it into perspective, in a limit holdem game, if you have a few
limpers in front of you, you can "gamble" a little bit, but you go in
knowing that you have a small chance of success, but a large potential
reward, and even if you lose you can buy more chips. In tournaments, you
very rarely want to put yourself into a situation where you have a small
chance of winning a pot, even if it is a big pot, when losing will
effectively cripple you (or calling would commit you to the pot with your
slim chance of success), since you can't simply put more chips on the
table.
Better to let everyone else lose their chips to one guy, retain yours, and
take on the field with that advantage.
> That's the trouble with applying
> theories I don't yet fully understand. I accept the bad call judgement
> - I will do it less in future.
>
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
That depends on a lot of things, such as: where you are in the tournament,
how many chips you have, how many chips your opponent has, how much it is
to call, how quickly and at what interval the blinds are going to escalate
at, etc.. It's not a question that can be simply answered with "yes" or
"no".
> thanks for the feedback so far...
>
>
> John B. wrote:
> > Go all in, bust out, join in another STT and do the same thing all over
> > again - yeah!
> >
> > Sarcasm for: You shouldn't have called that obvious overbet with those
> > cards in the FIRST PLACE!!!!
> >
> > John B.
> >
> > "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164824052.510590.208690@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> > > Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
> > >
> > > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> > > on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> > > one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> > > 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
> > >
> > > I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> > > We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> > > giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> > > Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> > > put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> > > more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> > > - it's got to be a fold - right?
> > >
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
----
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 11:01:05
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:01:25 -0800, "MysteriAce"
<a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>On Nov 29 2006 1:33 PM, Beatsy wrote:
>
>> I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
>> book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
>> of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
>> fold if you don't hit the flop).
>
>I'm pretty sure you are referring to Sklanksy's advice on Limit holdem,
>cash games. Not no limit holdem STTs. Nobody is going to recommend that
>you call 40% of your stack, early in a NL STT, with a suited connector
>because there are multiple callers in front of you.
>
>To put it into perspective, in a limit holdem game, if you have a few
>limpers in front of you, you can "gamble" a little bit
You are right. In a limit game this would be an easy call from the
button. It's not a "gamble" at all though. It's a sound bet for two
small bets. It wouldn't be great for 20sb though!
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 16:17:43
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
> book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
> of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
> fold if you don't hit the flop). That's the trouble with applying
> theories I don't yet fully understand. I accept the bad call judgement
> - I will do it less in future.
In an unraised pot, sure they're playable! I don't think he's
(Sklansky) recommending that you call a 40X raise for 40%
of your stack though...
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
Albeit the preflop and flop calls were a mistake, you're now getting 16:1
from the pot (assuming 3200 in the pot) and folding your gutshot would
be a mistake... cross your fingers and hope for the best.
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 16:16:35
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
Would be great to call with those cards if you had multiple LIMPERS. But to
call a massive BET like that so early on in a tournie? Ouch! (You never
did say what the blinds were, so I'll assume the 400 bet was around 10 times
the big blind?) Then by the time you get to the turn, you're already pot
committed, so you have to go for it.
John B.
"Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I kinda knew I was gonna get berated for the first call. I read it in a
> book, OK! According to Sklansky, if you get at least 4 callers in front
> of you pre-flop, then it's OK to take a shot at suited connectors (but
> fold if you don't hit the flop). That's the trouble with applying
> theories I don't yet fully understand. I accept the bad call judgement
> - I will do it less in future.
>
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
>
> thanks for the feedback so far...
>
>
> John B. wrote:
> > Go all in, bust out, join in another STT and do the same thing all over
> > again - yeah!
> >
> > Sarcasm for: You shouldn't have called that obvious overbet with those
> > cards in the FIRST PLACE!!!!
> >
> > John B.
> >
> > "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164824052.510590.208690@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> > > Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
> > >
> > > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including
me
> > > on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> > > one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> > > 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
> > >
> > > I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or
set.
> > > We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> > > giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> > > Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing
won't
> > > put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> > > more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the
outcome
> > > - it's got to be a fold - right?
> > >
>
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 15:50:41
From: PoMoFo
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
You can always get pot odds on your last bet by committing most of your
stack early with a dog of a hand.
I think you are focusing on the wrong question, but if you really want an
answer to that specific question, the answer is ... if you drink glass is
full then call and bust out now, if your drink glass is empty then fold,
quickly order another free drink and don't bust out til your drink gets
there.
PoMoFo
"Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
>
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 00:20:10
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
You could have and should have folded every step of the way. Being that
its early I think you should be playing your tightest, not calling away
a lot of your stack when you know youre not good.
|
| | | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:43:49
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Nov 29 2006 10:20 PM, ben carr wrote:
> You could have and should have folded every step of the way. Being that
> its early I think you should be playing your tightest, not calling away
> a lot of your stack when you know youre not good.
Not true. He should have folded preflop. Post flop, he had to draw.
There was too much money in the pot by then to fold. Calling preflop was
such an enormous mistake that it made drawing to the gut-shot the only
correct play postflop.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 03:39:41
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
I have to disagree with you Mysteryace. I know the pot odds are 12 to 1
on the flop, but I still dont like it in this situation. Its only 200 to
chase an 8, but that 200 is a third of what you have left. When the turn
misses you have now donated 60% of your stack when the best you were
throughout the hand is on a 4 outer. Im pessimistic so I am not counting
the overcards you have. This early in the tourny make me be very very
tight. I wouldnt chase that draw here. In a cash game I would every
time. Very late in the tourney I would chase it. If I were short stacked
I chase. If the 200 were a smaller % of my stack I would call. But in
this exact situation I fold. It seems like at least 5 people at the
table arent afraid to call 40% of their stack preflop so there should be
plenty of chances to take advantage of them, and better chances than a
probable 4 outer.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 01:02:06
From: jgm
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"ben carr" <up-high@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:12739-456FEA4D-391@storefull-3353.bay.webtv.net...
>I have to disagree with you Mysteryace. I know the pot odds are 12 to 1
> on the flop, but I still dont like it in this situation. Its only 200 to
> chase an 8, but that 200 is a third of what you have left. When the turn
> misses you have now donated 60% of your stack when the best you were
> throughout the hand is on a 4 outer.
That's not an argument to fold post flop. It's an argument to fold preflop.
Calling preflop, and then folding post flop when getting the right price to
draw, is just pissing chips away. Correct the problem at it's source.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 01:37:17
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
Yes calling preflop was bad, but thats no reason to risk it all on a
draw now.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 07:22:46
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
ben carr wrote:
> Yes calling preflop was bad, but thats no reason to risk it all on a
> draw now.
Whether to call the flop bet is a moderately close decision. Much
depends on the size of the blinds. "Early in the tournament" isn't very
precise. If the blinds are 25/50, we have an M of eight if we fold. We
can play with an M of eight and it is probably right to fold and to
curse, silently, whoever made us call preflop. If the blinds have
reached 50/10, we are being asked to soldier on with an M of four if we
fold. This just isn't a good idea. I would move in on the flop in that
case because I would rather have a small chance for a decent stack than
be so short-stacked. I would think that 50/100 blinds were more likely
if the raise were to 400. If you call the flop bet, you are crippled if
you ever fold, so the decision on the turn is already made.
Will in New Haven
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:57:51
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:50:41 -0500, "PoMoFo" <pomofo777@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>You can always get pot odds on your last bet by committing most of your
>stack early with a dog of a hand.
>
This is the key to it.
If the guy had raised 900 and you called, you would have enormous pot
odds when he put the remaining 100 in on the flop. You would have to
call with just about anything.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 00:37:23
From: jgm
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> won't bust out completely if you miss).
Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss. Away from the
money, the math = pot odds. If you are getting the odds to call on a later
street for all or a large % of your stack, then your play on an earlier
street was usually where any mistake was made. To then fold on a later
street, despite the math being right, would just compound any earlier
mistake.
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 19:06:26
From: eleaticus
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"jgm" <noaddress@unavailable > wrote in message
news:9smdnWzKMO4aVu3YnZ2dnUVZ8sqdnZ2d@pipex.net...
>
> "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> > river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> > won't bust out completely if you miss).
>
> Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss. Away from the
> money, the math = pot odds. If you are getting the odds to call on a later
> street for all or a large % of your stack, then your play on an earlier
> street was usually where any mistake was made. To then fold on a later
> street, despite the math being right, would just compound any earlier
> mistake.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Well, it is ok in the early levels perhaps if we are talking about smaller
pots.
But at final tables, or near there, it is not odds-of-winning versus pot
size (immediate or implied), it is odds-of-winning versus
odds-of-meeting-your-goals that counts.
In the Preface to Kill Phil!, Helmuth recognizes this although he often
talks otherwise, and all the in-this-case-idiot tourney-talking-heads get it
wrong.
If you have a big enough stack, of course, and the bet amount is relatively
small, who cares? Unless it is a short stack going all in, and then ...
OK!
--
eleaticus
ee-lee-AT-i-cus
eleaticus@bellsouth.net
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 06:50:04
From: jgm
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"eleaticus" <eleaticus@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:Yh4ch.4128$Ig1.1512@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> "jgm" <noaddress@unavailable> wrote in message
>> Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss. Away from the
>> money, the math = pot odds. If you are getting the odds to call on a
>> later
>> street for all or a large % of your stack, then your play on an earlier
>> street was usually where any mistake was made. To then fold on a later
>> street, despite the math being right, would just compound any earlier
>> mistake.
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong.
>
> Well, it is ok in the early levels perhaps if we are talking about smaller
> pots.
>
> But at final tables, or near there, it is not odds-of-winning versus pot
> size (immediate or implied), it is odds-of-winning versus
> odds-of-meeting-your-goals that counts.
Did you actually read my post before replying? See that part where I wrote
'away from the money'? At what point did I state the math = pot odds at the
final table? Please point out what is actually wrong, wrong, wrong in my
post.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 03:27:54
From: eleaticus
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"jgm" <noaddress@unavailable > wrote in message
news:t6KdndJx3LPVv-zYRVnygQ@pipex.net...
>
> "eleaticus" <eleaticus@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Yh4ch.4128$Ig1.1512@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> > "jgm" <noaddress@unavailable> wrote in message
> >> Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss. Away from
the
> >> money, the math = pot odds. If you are getting the odds to call on a
> >> later
> >> street for all or a large % of your stack, then your play on an earlier
> >> street was usually where any mistake was made. To then fold on a later
> >> street, despite the math being right, would just compound any earlier
> >> mistake.
> >
> > Wrong, wrong, wrong.
> >
> > Well, it is ok in the early levels perhaps if we are talking about
smaller
> > pots.
> >
> > But at final tables, or near there, it is not odds-of-winning versus pot
> > size (immediate or implied), it is odds-of-winning versus
> > odds-of-meeting-your-goals that counts.
>
> Did you actually read my post before replying? See that part where I
wrote
> 'away from the money'? At what point did I state the math = pot odds at
the
> final table? Please point out what is actually wrong, wrong, wrong in my
> post.
Well, at first blush I was about to say "sorry" but second blush brought me
right to:
"Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss."
First hand: Very little in the pot. First to act raises to 1/2 the buyin
chip stack, you call, and Big Blind goes allin. A confederate with the
hidden cameras is now able to see their hands and tell you what they are,
and you now know you have a somewhat greater than 1/3 chance of a sure win.
Do you call? It is far away from the money.
According to what you said, inadverantly or not, you have decided to take an
almost 2/3 chance of missing the minimum tourney money when two opponents
are showing aggression (which you now know is well justified).
The question is, will you be 3/2 as likely to meet your goal for the tourney
if you hit than if you fold. NOT that you are far from the money. 3/2 as
likely will make it slightly better than an even money bet vs reaching your
goal, so even that is not good odds.
--
eleaticus
ee-lee-AT-i-cus
eleaticus@bellsouth.net
>
>
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 18:29:41
From: jgm
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"eleaticus" <eleaticus@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:1Ebch.21528$k6.3604@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
> Well, at first blush I was about to say "sorry" but second blush brought
> me
> right to:
>
> "Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss."
>
> First hand: Very little in the pot. First to act raises to 1/2 the buyin
> chip stack, you call, and Big Blind goes allin. A confederate with the
> hidden cameras is now able to see their hands and tell you what they are,
> and you now know you have a somewhat greater than 1/3 chance of a sure
> win.
>
> Do you call? It is far away from the money.
I fold to the original raise. But should I call the first raise, I call the
second raise as the math is right. The mistake was making the 1st call, not
the second. Folding to the second raise is just yet another mistake.
> According to what you said, inadverantly or not, you have decided to take
> an
> almost 2/3 chance of missing the minimum tourney money when two opponents
> are showing aggression (which you now know is well justified).
>
> The question is, will you be 3/2 as likely to meet your goal for the
> tourney
> if you hit than if you fold. NOT that you are far from the money. 3/2 as
> likely will make it slightly better than an even money bet vs reaching
> your
> goal, so even that is not good odds.
If I am the type of player to call off half my stack and then fold, I doubt
I have much chance of making the money in any tourney.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:59:24
From: eleaticus
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"jgm" <noaddress@unavailable > wrote in message
news:h9ednbUsgsSVW-zYRVnygA@pipex.net...
> If I am the type of player to call off half my stack and then fold, I
doubt
> I have much chance of making the money in any tourney.
If you are the kind to risk your whole tourney without necessity with 2-1
odds against you, there's no way getting there is a subject worth discussing
with you
Top tourney pro after top tourney pro will say they don't want to take on
races if they don't have to, with something close to 1-1 odds with at least
1-1 pot odds, and you want to take on 1-2 odds against you?
eleaticus
ee-lee-AT-i-cus
>
>
>
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 19:45:14
From: jgm
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
"eleaticus" <eleaticus@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:i5qch.37139$K9.23625@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Top tourney pro after top tourney pro will say they don't want to take on
> races if they don't have to, with something close to 1-1 odds with at
> least
> 1-1 pot odds, and you want to take on 1-2 odds against you?
I don't want to take those odds, but if the situation arises, then so be it.
Getting 4-1 pot odds as in your totally unrealistic example, of course I
take the gamble as a 2-1 dog. That's not even a close gamble. Most of these
top tourney pros you mention take that gamble. Unless you don't consider
guys like Harrington and Lederer to be top tourney pros. But again, they
wouldn't be making bad calls for half their stack to get themselves in that
situation.
Maybe you can come up with some examples where a 'top tourney pro' has
called off half their stack preflop and then folded.
Or maybe you can come up with some examples where a 'top tourney pro' has
folded as a 2-1 dog when getting 4-1 pot odds.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 03:30:08
From: eleaticus
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
The previous assumes the first bettor folds ahead of you, of course.
--
eleaticus
ee-lee-AT-i-cus
eleaticus@bellsouth.net
"eleaticus" <eleaticus@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:1Ebch.21528$k6.3604@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
> "jgm" <noaddress@unavailable> wrote in message
> news:t6KdndJx3LPVv-zYRVnygQ@pipex.net...
> >
> > "eleaticus" <eleaticus@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:Yh4ch.4128$Ig1.1512@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
> > > "jgm" <noaddress@unavailable> wrote in message
> > >> Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss. Away from
> the
> > >> money, the math = pot odds. If you are getting the odds to call on a
> > >> later
> > >> street for all or a large % of your stack, then your play on an
earlier
> > >> street was usually where any mistake was made. To then fold on a
later
> > >> street, despite the math being right, would just compound any earlier
> > >> mistake.
> > >
> > > Wrong, wrong, wrong.
> > >
> > > Well, it is ok in the early levels perhaps if we are talking about
> smaller
> > > pots.
> > >
> > > But at final tables, or near there, it is not odds-of-winning versus
pot
> > > size (immediate or implied), it is odds-of-winning versus
> > > odds-of-meeting-your-goals that counts.
> >
> > Did you actually read my post before replying? See that part where I
> wrote
> > 'away from the money'? At what point did I state the math = pot odds at
> the
> > final table? Please point out what is actually wrong, wrong, wrong in my
> > post.
>
> Well, at first blush I was about to say "sorry" but second blush brought
me
> right to:
>
> "Always go with the math, even if you will bust if you miss."
>
> First hand: Very little in the pot. First to act raises to 1/2 the buyin
> chip stack, you call, and Big Blind goes allin. A confederate with the
> hidden cameras is now able to see their hands and tell you what they are,
> and you now know you have a somewhat greater than 1/3 chance of a sure
win.
>
> Do you call? It is far away from the money.
>
> According to what you said, inadverantly or not, you have decided to take
an
> almost 2/3 chance of missing the minimum tourney money when two opponents
> are showing aggression (which you now know is well justified).
>
> The question is, will you be 3/2 as likely to meet your goal for the
tourney
> if you hit than if you fold. NOT that you are far from the money. 3/2 as
> likely will make it slightly better than an even money bet vs reaching
your
> goal, so even that is not good odds.
> --
> eleaticus
> ee-lee-AT-i-cus
> eleaticus@bellsouth.net
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 15:21:24
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
Go all in, bust out, join in another STT and do the same thing all over
again - yeah!
Sarcasm for: You shouldn't have called that obvious overbet with those
cards in the FIRST PLACE!!!!
John B.
"Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164824052.510590.208690@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
>
> Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
>
> I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> - it's got to be a fold - right?
>
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 11:21:24
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Nov 29 2006 11:14 AM, Beatsy wrote:
> This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
>
> Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> on the button with 9hTh).
That would have to be the single biggest mistake in the action. You
should not make this call. I mean, this is a truly, truly awful call.
> Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> one call, 3 others fold to me, I call.
OK, I take it back. This is truly worse than the first call. Or maybe
they are equally terrible. Either way, you have played this hand almost
as poorly as you possibly could so far.
> Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
>
> I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> - it's got to be a fold - right?
No, at this point, with the pot as big as it is, and with the horrible
mistakes made throughout this hand, you pretty much have to call and hope
you hit your 8. There has to be at least 3000 chips in the pot at this
point. You might as well chase your miracle, and fold to a non-8 river,
with some chips left over to attempt a comeback.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_______________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 22:15:18
From: kdhspyder
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
Beatsy wrote:
> This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
>
> Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
>
> I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> - it's got to be a fold - right?
With time it's easy to asses the risk/benefit. The big, HUGE, variable
is what % of the time are the others going to fold to your allin.
First pot size: 2400 before your allin
Pot odds: if CO or button call your allin your odds are 12800/5200 or
almost exactly 60/40
If one of the two blinds calls your pot odds are less than 60/40
What might call your allin?
A) any pair 55 and up == > 60 possibilities
B) Two overs to your 8-5 == > 240 possibilities
C) One over. Prolly A4,A3, A2 == > 48 possibilitities
What are your odds of success if called
A) over pairs 99-AA you are a 5/1 Dog -- > Horrible odds
... 88, 77, 66, 55 grouped together you are a .... Dog
B) Two overs you are a 65/35 Dog -- > Not a good bet
C) One over, you are a 60/40 Dog -- > and even bet with 60/40 odds
Up til now obviously this is a dumb move, the pot odds are just not
there. 8-5o is too weak
But you can get them to fold some percentage of the time. At what
percentage is the Allin a good bet? Of the 348 combinations listed
above you will lose roughly 2 o/o 3 times. It can be worked out
mathmatically but by coincidence it's right around 25% of the time.
If they fold 25% of the time, you win 2400 = +600
if they call 75% of the time
.... 50% of the time, you lose 5200 = -2600
.... 25% of the time, you win 7600 = +1900
The net expectation here is -100
So if the CO and Button will fold more than 25% of the time.. Push.. if
not Fold.
But then there are the blinds..if they call you have worse odds on your
5200 Push so you need them to fold far MORE often than 25%, but
actually they are more likely to call. The same analysis can be done
for each of the blinds but I'd guesstimate that for the 5200 Push with
8-5o to be 'correct' the blinds need to fold about 40% of the time.
That might be tough to do.
Overall unless the 4 are so tight that they squeak..Fold.
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 04:31:32
From: Beatsy
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
That really helped put theory in context - a re-read of the relevant
chapters made much more sense this time. Thanks for that...
I wish I hadn't given the example hand that I did - it was from weeks
ago, and I'm a bit better than that now (only 3-4 had months experience
to date). It just became a distraction. It's pot odds in relation to
tourney conditions I was hoping to explore...
Anyway - many responses contained really interesting and useful
feedback. My overall EV has probably increased 0.1% as a result of this
thread ;-) Thanks to all who took the time to give thoughtful replies
(including the ones dissecting my awful play - there was scads of
useful info in there too).
Onward and upward...
Cheers
Beats
kdhspyder wrote:
> Beatsy wrote:
> > This (and similar) has come up a few times in STTs I've played in.
> > Interested to hear opinions on the preferred play...
> >
> > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
> > on the button with 9hTh). Blinds fold. Flop is 7c6d2s. UTG bets 200,
> > one call, 3 others fold to me, I call. Turn is Kh, no help. UTG bets
> > 200 and the first caller folds. It's on me. Now what?
> >
> > I've still got the pot odds but the other guy likely has a pair or set.
> > We've not played enough hands to get any reads on him really - is he
> > giving me the odds cos he's on a gutshot too or is it a value bet?
> > Dunno! So should I risk half my stack on that river card? Missing won't
> > put me out, but would leave me a fairly short 200 chips instead of a
> > more comfortable 400. As that's ten times more likely to be the outcome
> > - it's got to be a fold - right?
>
> With time it's easy to asses the risk/benefit. The big, HUGE, variable
> is what % of the time are the others going to fold to your allin.
>
> First pot size: 2400 before your allin
> Pot odds: if CO or button call your allin your odds are 12800/5200 or
> almost exactly 60/40
> If one of the two blinds calls your pot odds are less than 60/40
>
> What might call your allin?
> A) any pair 55 and up ==> 60 possibilities
> B) Two overs to your 8-5 ==> 240 possibilities
> C) One over. Prolly A4,A3, A2 ==> 48 possibilitities
>
> What are your odds of success if called
> A) over pairs 99-AA you are a 5/1 Dog --> Horrible odds
> ... 88, 77, 66, 55 grouped together you are a .... Dog
> B) Two overs you are a 65/35 Dog --> Not a good bet
> C) One over, you are a 60/40 Dog --> and even bet with 60/40 odds
>
> Up til now obviously this is a dumb move, the pot odds are just not
> there. 8-5o is too weak
>
> But you can get them to fold some percentage of the time. At what
> percentage is the Allin a good bet? Of the 348 combinations listed
> above you will lose roughly 2 o/o 3 times. It can be worked out
> mathmatically but by coincidence it's right around 25% of the time.
>
> If they fold 25% of the time, you win 2400 = +600
> if they call 75% of the time
> .... 50% of the time, you lose 5200 = -2600
> .... 25% of the time, you win 7600 = +1900
> The net expectation here is -100
>
> So if the CO and Button will fold more than 25% of the time.. Push.. if
> not Fold.
>
> But then there are the blinds..if they call you have worse odds on your
> 5200 Push so you need them to fold far MORE often than 25%, but
> actually they are more likely to call. The same analysis can be done
> for each of the blinds but I'd guesstimate that for the 5200 Push with
> 8-5o to be 'correct' the blinds need to fold about 40% of the time.
> That might be tough to do.
>
> Overall unless the 4 are so tight that they squeak..Fold.
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 13:04:51
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
>
> I hate to bring common sense and logic to RGP, because I know it stands
> against what most of you nits live for...but has anyone considered the
> fact that maybe this was a typo, and the raise that got 5 callers pre-flop
> was to 40 and not 400?
>
> I know, sounds ridiculous that you idiots could put your two brain cells
> together and consider this possibility, but I thought I would just point
> it out.
That was my first thought on reading the first post in the thread. In
fact, I mentioneted it up there <points > in my earlier post. Howeve,
that turns out not to have been the case. If it had been and then the
bet post-flop had been twenty, he would have BEEN getting pot odds to
call.
But thanks for the abuse.
Will in New Haven
--
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail
better."
Samuel Beckett, "Worstward Ho", 1983
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 13:25:22
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
> But thanks for the abuse.
Well, that was the real point of this post :)
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
________________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:31:00
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
> Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
I hate to bring common sense and logic to RGP, because I know it stands
against what most of you nits live for...but has anyone considered the
fact that maybe this was a typo, and the raise that got 5 callers pre-flop
was to 40 and not 400?
I know, sounds ridiculous that you idiots could put your two brain cells
together and consider this possibility, but I thought I would just point
it out.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
_____________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:34:00
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
On Dec 3 2006 1:31 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > Early hand in a 10 seat NLHE tourney. Ten still in with approx 1000
> > chips each. UTG raises to 400 and gets 5 callers pre-flop (including me
>
> I hate to bring common sense and logic to RGP, because I know it stands
> against what most of you nits live for...but has anyone considered the
> fact that maybe this was a typo, and the raise that got 5 callers pre-flop
> was to 40 and not 400?
>
> I know, sounds ridiculous that you idiots could put your two brain cells
> together and consider this possibility, but I thought I would just point
> it out.
uh... if it was... he wouldn't have been getting the pot odds to continue
that he later claimed to have been getting.
Nice try though.
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:07:06
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Tourney - to call with pot odds or not...
|
Beatsy wrote:
> A practical answer at least... ;-)
>
> let me try again.
>
> IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY OTHER USEFUL UNAMBIGUOUS CRITERIA will pot odds
> influence your decision to call or fold in a tourney (when you can't be
> busted out by calling).
>
> If so - then under what circumstances. Do pot odds even APPLY in
> tourneys fer christ sake?
In two rather different situations:
1: When your stack is very large in relation to the bet or raise in
question. Now you are playing pretty much the same as cash poker. If
the pot is offering you better odds than your odds of hitting the draw
_and the draw is likely to win_, you make the call. If you miss, you
can fold and continue with a decent, although somewhat diminished
stack. It helps if your opponent(s) are also deep-stacked as stacking
someone after hitting a miracle flop is so profitable. That is called
your implied odds.
2: When your stack is so small that folding will put you in a terrible
chip position.
You put yourself in position #2 by playing that hand. However, you were
not in either position when you called that pre-flop raise. If everyone
has ten times as many chips, including yourself, you are getting good
pot odds and very good IMPLIED odds by calling after other callers.
When I first read your original post, I figured it was a typo and the
actual raise was $40. That would have been a reasonable call.
Will in New Haven
--
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail
better."
Samuel Beckett, "Worstward Ho", 1983
>
> PoMoFo wrote:
> > You can always get pot odds on your last bet by committing most of your
> > stack early with a dog of a hand.
> >
> > I think you are focusing on the wrong question, but if you really want an
> > answer to that specific question, the answer is ... if you drink glass is
> > full then call and bust out now, if your drink glass is empty then fold,
> > quickly order another free drink and don't bust out til your drink gets
> > there.
> >
> > PoMoFo
> >
> >
> >
> > "Beatsy" <steve_beats@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164832395.869639.101110@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > But the main question remains. If you have pot odds on the turn or
> > > river - do you go with the long shot or even 2:1 shot (assuming you
> > > won't bust out completely if you miss).
> > >
|
|
