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Main
Date: 06 Dec 2006 06:51:25
From: Brian Skills
Subject: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
edge?
Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while having
the best hand. I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad luck
and bad decisions.
For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of an
MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He gets
the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and he
goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time and I'm
thinking...
So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put in
a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has AJo
and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
Should I have gone all though?
If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no kings, no
spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
solid opportunity to bust him.
--
I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
strippers.
Brian Cadd
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 12:26:37
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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"Brian Skills" <bcadd@cox.net > wrote in message
news:PNAdh.15925$B42.9213@newsfe12.phx...
> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> edge?
No, the goal is to win.
> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while having
> the best hand.
Yeah, umm... no you weren't. That's not possible.
Maybe you had the best hand going in, but you
obviously ended up with the short end of the stick
coming out ;-)
> I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad luck and bad
> decisions.
>
> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of an
> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He gets
> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and he
> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time and I'm
> thinking...
>
> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put in
> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has AJo
> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
Bad luck.
> Should I have gone all though?
Sure, if you want to race. Against that particular
opponent you're probably ahead preflop, but if both
of his cards are live (you said he'll push with JT) then
you're not that big of a favorite, and he can knock you
out of the tourney if you lose! (worth noting: when I
put chips into the pot in race situations, I prefer to be
the one with the larger stack... I want to race for his
tournament life, not my own!) Luckily you happened
to have him dominated this time, but being as he had
the horseshoe in his ass he managed to suck out yet
again. GG. There's another starting in 5 mins ;-)
> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no kings, no
> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
> solid opportunity to bust him.
If you raise, he still pushes for all your chips.
He did it facing a raise reraise earlier with JTo...
you think he's flat calling with AJo here?
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
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Date: 06 Dec 15:30:11
From: arlo payne
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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On Dec 6 2006 7:51 AM, Brian Skills wrote:
> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> edge?
>
> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while having
> the best hand. I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad luck
> and bad decisions.
>
> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of an
> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He gets
> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and he
> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time and I'm
> thinking...
>
> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put in
> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has AJo
> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
>
> Should I have gone all though?
>
> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no kings, no
> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
> solid opportunity to bust him.
>
>
> --
> I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
> strippers.
> Brian Cadd
Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 12:34:24
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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"arlo payne" <arlo_payne@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1165419011$917214@recpoker.com...
> On Dec 6 2006 7:51 AM, Brian Skills wrote:
>
>> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
>> edge?
>>
>> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while
>> having
>> the best hand. I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad luck
>> and bad decisions.
>>
>> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of an
>> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He gets
>> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and he
>> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time and
>> I'm
>> thinking...
>>
>> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put
>> in
>> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
>> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has
>> AJo
>> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
>>
>> Should I have gone all though?
>>
>> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no kings,
>> no
>> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
>> solid opportunity to bust him.
>>
>>
>> --
>> I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
>> strippers.
>> Brian Cadd
>
> Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
> Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
I pushed with them at bubble-time in a babystake MTT on doyle's
last night... low M and I was hoping to grab the blinds, but A8 in
the BB didn't want to let go and caught on the turn to finish my
run... 19 players left, 18 get paid, and I'm waiting for the other
tables to complete the hand to see where I finish (we were
hand to hand at that point) Luckily, a shorter stack busted out
on another table 30 seconds later, which put him on the bubble
and gave me 18th place (got a little more than the buyin back.)
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:26:11
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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On Dec 6 2006 9:34 AM, Mark B (Diputsur) wrote:
> "arlo payne" <arlo_payne@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165419011$917214@recpoker.com...
> > On Dec 6 2006 7:51 AM, Brian Skills wrote:
> >
> >> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> >> edge?
> >>
> >> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while
> >> having
> >> the best hand. I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad luck
> >> and bad decisions.
> >>
> >> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of an
> >> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He gets
> >> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and he
> >> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time and
> >> I'm
> >> thinking...
> >>
> >> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put
> >> in
> >> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
> >> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has
> >> AJo
> >> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
> >>
> >> Should I have gone all though?
> >>
> >> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no kings,
> >> no
> >> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
> >> solid opportunity to bust him.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
> >> strippers.
> >> Brian Cadd
> >
> > Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
> > Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
>
> I pushed with them at bubble-time in a babystake MTT on doyle's
> last night... low M and I was hoping to grab the blinds, but A8 in
> the BB didn't want to let go and caught on the turn to finish my
> run... 19 players left, 18 get paid, and I'm waiting for the other
> tables to complete the hand to see where I finish (we were
> hand to hand at that point) Luckily, a shorter stack busted out
> on another table 30 seconds later, which put him on the bubble
> and gave me 18th place (got a little more than the buyin back.)
>
> Mark
> --
> www.myspace.com/diputsur
Ohhhh I HATE pushing with a small pair. If you get called you are at best
a coin flip. I really really prefer the big cards. Actually, let me
rephrase that. I hate pushing PREFLOP with anything (well, except AA). I
like to see a flop and go from there. Maybe I should play PLHE
more...hey, there's an idea.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
_______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:38:29
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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On Dec 6 2006 7:26 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> On Dec 6 2006 9:34 AM, Mark B (Diputsur) wrote:
>
> > "arlo payne" <arlo_payne@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1165419011$917214@recpoker.com...
> > > On Dec 6 2006 7:51 AM, Brian Skills wrote:
> > >
> > >> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> > >> edge?
> > >>
> > >> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while
> > >> having
> > >> the best hand. I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad
luck
> > >> and bad decisions.
> > >>
> > >> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of
an
> > >> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He
gets
> > >> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and
he
> > >> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time
and
> > >> I'm
> > >> thinking...
> > >>
> > >> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd
put
> > >> in
> > >> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he
gets
> > >> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He
has
> > >> AJo
> > >> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
> > >>
> > >> Should I have gone all though?
> > >>
> > >> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no
kings,
> > >> no
> > >> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
> > >> solid opportunity to bust him.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
> > >> strippers.
> > >> Brian Cadd
> > >
> > > Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
> > > Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
> >
> > I pushed with them at bubble-time in a babystake MTT on doyle's
> > last night... low M and I was hoping to grab the blinds, but A8 in
> > the BB didn't want to let go and caught on the turn to finish my
> > run... 19 players left, 18 get paid, and I'm waiting for the other
> > tables to complete the hand to see where I finish (we were
> > hand to hand at that point) Luckily, a shorter stack busted out
> > on another table 30 seconds later, which put him on the bubble
> > and gave me 18th place (got a little more than the buyin back.)
> >
> > Mark
> > --
> > www.myspace.com/diputsur
>
> Ohhhh I HATE pushing with a small pair. If you get called you are at best
> a coin flip. I really really prefer the big cards. Actually, let me
> rephrase that. I hate pushing PREFLOP with anything (well, except AA). I
> like to see a flop and go from there. Maybe I should play PLHE
> more...hey, there's an idea.
>
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
Maybe a big PLHE tourney? There's a thought
_______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:45:54
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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On Dec 6 2006 4:38 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
> On Dec 6 2006 7:26 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > On Dec 6 2006 9:34 AM, Mark B (Diputsur) wrote:
> >
> > > "arlo payne" <arlo_payne@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1165419011$917214@recpoker.com...
> > > > On Dec 6 2006 7:51 AM, Brian Skills wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have
any
> > > >> edge?
> > > >>
> > > >> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while
> > > >> having
> > > >> the best hand. I'm having trouble telling the difference between bad
> luck
> > > >> and bad decisions.
> > > >>
> > > >> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of
> an
> > > >> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He
> gets
> > > >> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him
and
> he
> > > >> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time
> and
> > > >> I'm
> > > >> thinking...
> > > >>
> > > >> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd
> put
> > > >> in
> > > >> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he
> gets
> > > >> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He
> has
> > > >> AJo
> > > >> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
> > > >>
> > > >> Should I have gone all though?
> > > >>
> > > >> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no
> kings,
> > > >> no
> > > >> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking
for a
> > > >> solid opportunity to bust him.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
> > > >> strippers.
> > > >> Brian Cadd
> > > >
> > > > Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
> > > > Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
> > >
> > > I pushed with them at bubble-time in a babystake MTT on doyle's
> > > last night... low M and I was hoping to grab the blinds, but A8 in
> > > the BB didn't want to let go and caught on the turn to finish my
> > > run... 19 players left, 18 get paid, and I'm waiting for the other
> > > tables to complete the hand to see where I finish (we were
> > > hand to hand at that point) Luckily, a shorter stack busted out
> > > on another table 30 seconds later, which put him on the bubble
> > > and gave me 18th place (got a little more than the buyin back.)
> > >
> > > Mark
> > > --
> > > www.myspace.com/diputsur
> >
> > Ohhhh I HATE pushing with a small pair. If you get called you are at best
> > a coin flip. I really really prefer the big cards. Actually, let me
> > rephrase that. I hate pushing PREFLOP with anything (well, except AA). I
> > like to see a flop and go from there. Maybe I should play PLHE
> > more...hey, there's an idea.
> >
> > ------
> > brewmaster at brewcam dot com
> >
> > "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> > you look at it right" -RH
>
> Maybe a big PLHE tourney? There's a thought
Hm, if only I knew where to find one.
Hey man, answer my emails.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
_______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 13:36:23
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
"Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster" <ae2dad2@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:3m3k44xss2.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 6 2006 9:34 AM, Mark B (Diputsur) wrote:
>> > Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
>> > Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
>>
>> I pushed with them at bubble-time in a babystake MTT on doyle's
>> last night... low M and I was hoping to grab the blinds, but A8 in
>> the BB didn't want to let go and caught on the turn to finish my
>> run... 19 players left, 18 get paid, and I'm waiting for the other
>> tables to complete the hand to see where I finish (we were
>> hand to hand at that point) Luckily, a shorter stack busted out
>> on another table 30 seconds later, which put him on the bubble
>> and gave me 18th place (got a little more than the buyin back.)
>>
>> Mark
>> --
>> www.myspace.com/diputsur
>
> Ohhhh I HATE pushing with a small pair.
Yeah, me too ;-)
> If you get called you are at best a coin flip.
Wasn't really hoping for a call, blinds were big enough that I
couldn't resist when it was folded around to me. I was
hoping my remaining opponents (none of whom could afford
to double me up as they would have been in bad shape
themselves) had shitty hands such as A8 and would let
them go if I pushed... I was half right ;-)
> I really really prefer the big cards. Actually, let me
> rephrase that. I hate pushing PREFLOP with anything
> (well, except AA). I like to see a flop and go from there.
With an M of about 3.5 (blinds 1200/600) I figured I was
limited to 2 options... and I didn't want to fold them ;-)
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:04:38
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
On Dec 6 2006 3:51 PM, Brian Skills wrote:
> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> edge?
no, winning the tournament is.
> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put in
> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has AJo
> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
>
> Should I have gone all though?
i'm happy getting all my money into the pot vs AJ here.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
--------
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 15:12:58
From: kevin cline
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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Brian Skills wrote:
> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> edge?
Mostly, until you get close to the money. Then things get complicated.
>
> Couple few times recently I was eliminated from tournament play while having
> the best hand...
>
> For instance, this guy has been moving all in with crap. First hour of an
> MTT, two folds and a raise to him and he reraises all in with JTo. He gets
> the call. He sucks out. Two or three hands later it's folded to him and he
> goes all in with 87o and sucks out again. He sucks out one more time and I'm
> thinking...
>
> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put in
> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has AJo
> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
>
> Should I have gone all in though?
Absolutely. You are a huge favorite. This is the first step to
winning -- accumulating chips from the fish.
>
> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop...
> I'm still in the tournament looking for a solid opportunity to bust him.
You found a solid opportunity, and took proper advantage of it. It
just wasn't your day.
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Date: 06 Dec 2006 17:03:37
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 06:51:25 -0800, "Brian Skills" <bcadd@cox.net > wrote:
>Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
>edge?
The purpose is to increase your threshold of agony as you watch KK after
KK after KK lose to some fucking genius who calls with A2 because
ace-rag is the goddamn nuts. The flop has a deuce on it of course,
just to tease you, because you know the river is also going to be
a deuce. It builds character.
This is the goal of tournament play.
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 10:44:49
From: FaceDownAcesUp
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
arlo payne wrote:
>
> Over playing AK is the down fall of many average players.
> Would you have called all in with a pair of 3s?
>
Calling with AK here is not the same as calling with pocket 3s.
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 13:02:29
From: Brian Skills
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
Thanks for all replies.
I've been through a series of situations where I made read, bet my stack,
and lost due to suck outs. All of the losses resulting in my elimination
from tournaments.
So I thought it might be time to re-think my tournament approach.
I think two of the problems I discovered are over playing AK and racing when
I have the smaller stack.
Thanks again.
--
I hate beer, whiskey, cigars, horseracing, poker and football. And
strippers.
Brian Cadd
|
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 07:41:55
From: David Nicoson
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
Brian Skills wrote:
> Is the goal of tournament play to get all in when you know you have any
> edge?
To state the obvious, the goal of tournament play should be to maximize
your expectation in real dollars. Sometimes getting it in with any
edge serves this goal.
> So, it's folded to me in middle position and I have AKs. Normally I'd put in
> a standard raise but with "all in guy" left to act I limp and hope he gets
> stupid. He does and goes all in for T6300. I have T3800 and call. He has AJo
> and sucks out a four card flush. Beats happen, I know.
>
> Should I have gone all though?
How big were the blinds? Does the dead money in the pot amount to
anything? How does your skill level compare with the rest of the
field? What's the pay-out schedule?
> If I raise and he calls or reraises then we see a flop. No ace, no kings, no
> spades, and no way I go broke. I'm still in the tournament looking for a
> solid opportunity to bust him.
If there's a lot of play left and you're a lot better than the field,
then you can think about folding. You're probably right to try to
double up here, imho.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 07:07:29
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
Many people think the way to play is push push push with whatever edge
they can. Think of it like this, you are a 2 to 1 favorite and go all
in. If you do this 2 times you are likely to be broke, since the odds of
it holding up both times is 2 to 1 against you. What a lot of people
dont realise is you can be aggressive but you dont have to risk it all.
You can bet and raise without commiting yourself to the pot. You can
just call if the opponent's bet is large enough or it does what you
want,like isolating the two of you preflop. A tournament is long, so
those 20% odds will make it against you many times during the whole
tournament. Of course the loose crazy players wont win it all, but they
can hurt you .
In your had against the animal you messed up. You see he is a bad player
so what do you do? You decide to make the pot huge. This lets luck
decide who goes farther. Against a weaker opponent you want to take luck
out of it as much as possible. There was no need to push before the flop
like you did. He didnt know it, but he was just trying to go broke. He
would have given you his money whenever you wanted it. Was a 60-40 edge
enough? It wouldnt be for me.
|
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 07:04:52
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Tournament Strategy Goal?
|
On Dec 8 2006 5:07 AM, ben carr wrote:
> Many people think the way to play is push push push with whatever edge
> they can. Think of it like this, you are a 2 to 1 favorite and go all
> in. If you do this 2 times you are likely to be broke, since the odds of
> it holding up both times is 2 to 1 against you. What a lot of people
> dont realise is you can be aggressive but you dont have to risk it all.
> You can bet and raise without commiting yourself to the pot. You can
> just call if the opponent's bet is large enough or it does what you
> want,like isolating the two of you preflop. A tournament is long, so
> those 20% odds will make it against you many times during the whole
> tournament. Of course the loose crazy players wont win it all, but they
> can hurt you .
>
>
> In your had against the animal you messed up. You see he is a bad player
> so what do you do? You decide to make the pot huge. This lets luck
> decide who goes farther. Against a weaker opponent you want to take luck
> out of it as much as possible. There was no need to push before the flop
> like you did. He didnt know it, but he was just trying to go broke. He
> would have given you his money whenever you wanted it. Was a 60-40 edge
> enough? It wouldnt be for me.
I think I could write a book about misconceptions in tournament strategy...
Ok people, If you have 100 equally skilled players, each player would be
1/100 to win the tournament. If you have one player who is constantly
taking 2/1 shots for all his money, he will be 1/50 to win the tourney.
HE WILL STILL BE A LONGSHOT BUT HE WILL BE MUCH MORE PROFITABLE!
That was cleansing.
:)
Fell
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Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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