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Main
Date: 30 Nov 20:25:21
From: Teabagger
Subject: The inevitable AK debate
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A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do you
call?
3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 21:46:39
From: Grip
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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Easy call. Early in a STT 'm perfectly willing to toss a few chips
into a pot at for some information. AKo is a decent enough hand,
foldable or callable for all the reasons already stated, but I'll pay
4x the BB early with that hand any day want to see how he'll play the
flop and then see how he reacts to how I play back at him.
G
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 20:21:10
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do
you
> call?
>
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
I play either turbos, 10 hands per level, or $5 SNGs with a friend. In
all cases I do whatever I can to get my stack in the middle pre-flop.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
-------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 16:09:38
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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MysteriAce wrote:
> On Nov 30 2006 4:41 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> > >
> > >1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
> gun
> > >raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
> > >
> >
> > Push or fold.
>
> That's awful advice. Blinds are 10/20, he pops it to 60, you have 1500
> and your only options are push or fold? No wonder everyone here has no
> respect for your advice. How is folding even an option? And why is
> calling or reraising NOT an option?
With these numbers, I like a re-raise. I can make it 200 and take it
down, take the lead or fold to a re-raise. I might NOT fold to a
re-raise but I guess I always would online against someone I didn't
know. Having position and the lead in the betting is better than having
just position.
Will in New Haven
--
"Pot-Limit has more thinking involved; young people can't think"
Norm Chad
>
> If you routinely bet 1500 chips to win 90, you will be broke in no time.
>
> >
> > >2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise.
> >
> > No, I don't.
> >
> > > He pushes in. Do you
> > >call?
> > >
> >
> > No.
> >
> > >3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> > >3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dr Zen
> > King of the wild pixels.
> > http://gollyg.blogspot.com
>
>
> ~ MysteriAce
>
> "Ashes and diamonds
> Foe and friend
> We were all equal in the end"
>
> ---
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:28:26
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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On 30 Nov 2006 16:09:38 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:
>
>MysteriAce wrote:
>> On Nov 30 2006 4:41 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>> > >
>> > >1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
>> gun
>> > >raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Push or fold.
>>
>> That's awful advice. Blinds are 10/20, he pops it to 60, you have 1500
>> and your only options are push or fold? No wonder everyone here has no
>> respect for your advice. How is folding even an option? And why is
>> calling or reraising NOT an option?
>
>With these numbers, I like a re-raise. I can make it 200 and take it
>down, take the lead or fold to a re-raise. I might NOT fold to a
>re-raise but I guess I always would online against someone I didn't
>know.
Well, you just threw away 200 chips in a $5 sng. Because they'll come
back over the top with all sorts of hands.
> Having position and the lead in the betting is better than having
>just position.
>
Which is exactly why I don't understand why people want to call!
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 23:51:17
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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On Dec 1 2006 3:28 AM, Dr Zen wrote:
> >With these numbers, I like a re-raise. I can make it 200 and take it
> >down, take the lead or fold to a re-raise. I might NOT fold to a
> >re-raise but I guess I always would online against someone I didn't
> >know.
>
> Well, you just threw away 200 chips in a $5 sng. Because they'll come
> back over the top with all sorts of hands.
he didn't, you would. if they come over the top with all sorts of hands
you push or call the push, it is that easy. however, if they don't come
over the top with all sorts of hands, you can fold.
> > Having position and the lead in the betting is better than having
> >just position.
> >
>
> Which is exactly why I don't understand why people want to call!
because position is a major advantage. of course position and the lead
would be an even greater one. you don't just give up an advantage because
it's theoretically possible to have an even greater one. you have an
advantage so you play.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
________________________________________________________________________
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 16:03:04
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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Dr Zen wrote:
> On 30 Nov 2006 12:56:31 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
> <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Teabagger wrote:
> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> >>
> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
> >
> >Stacks may be relatively even, I can accept that. However, they are
> >SOME size in relation to the blinds. That is important information.
>
> It's early, Will, so they are much, much bigger than the blinds.
>
> >In many situations, I would call. Having position with lots of chips
> >left to bet can be a very good thing. If my next normal raise would be
> >all-in, I might do that because there isn't enough advantage having
> >position when we are both pot-committed or nearly so. There are people
> >against whom I would fold in certain situations. Not many people and
> >not many situations.
> >
>
> Okay, you call and miss the flop. The other guy makes a 1/3 pot bet.
>
> Your action?
I have a lot of chips left and no problem letting it go.
>
> >>
> >> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do you
> >> call?
> >
> >How much will I have left, in relation to the blinds, if I fold?
>
> Make the blinds 15-30. You started with 1500, so let's assume you
> still have 1420 or something like that.
>
> > How
> >much do I have to call? This isn't rocket science but you leave out
> >enough information to drive a truck through.
> >
>
> The information doesn't matter. Early in the sng you're folding.
True enough.
> >> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> >> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
> >
> >Not enough information. In many situations it is ok to take the short
> >end of a race because you need chips.
>
> If stacks are even early in an sng, you do not need chips.
>
> > In others, you have a comfortable
> >number of chips. Having played against the guy on the button, even for
> >a few hours, would help also.
> >
>
> It's early in the sng. You haven't played him for hours.
I play the same people quite often, even in the sit and goes we have
now at Foxwoods. But this guy is a stranger.
Then I fold. You can always concede one difficult pot in this kind of
situation. -
Will in New Haven
--
"Pot-Limit has more thinking involved; young people can't think"
Norm Chad
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:05:32
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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On 30 Nov 2006 16:03:04 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:
>
>Dr Zen wrote:
>> On 30 Nov 2006 12:56:31 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
>> <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Teabagger wrote:
>> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>> >
>> >Stacks may be relatively even, I can accept that. However, they are
>> >SOME size in relation to the blinds. That is important information.
>>
>> It's early, Will, so they are much, much bigger than the blinds.
>>
>> >In many situations, I would call. Having position with lots of chips
>> >left to bet can be a very good thing. If my next normal raise would be
>> >all-in, I might do that because there isn't enough advantage having
>> >position when we are both pot-committed or nearly so. There are people
>> >against whom I would fold in certain situations. Not many people and
>> >not many situations.
>> >
>>
>> Okay, you call and miss the flop. The other guy makes a 1/3 pot bet.
>>
>> Your action?
>
>I have a lot of chips left and no problem letting it go.
Okay. So basically you have to make enough from the flops you do hit
to make up for all the ones you don't. Will you?
I'm not saying you won't. Just curious whether you think you will.
>>
>> >>
>> >> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do you
>> >> call?
>> >
>> >How much will I have left, in relation to the blinds, if I fold?
>>
>> Make the blinds 15-30. You started with 1500, so let's assume you
>> still have 1420 or something like that.
>>
>> > How
>> >much do I have to call? This isn't rocket science but you leave out
>> >enough information to drive a truck through.
>> >
>>
>> The information doesn't matter. Early in the sng you're folding.
>
>True enough.
>
>> >> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
>> >> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
>> >
>> >Not enough information. In many situations it is ok to take the short
>> >end of a race because you need chips.
>>
>> If stacks are even early in an sng, you do not need chips.
>>
>> > In others, you have a comfortable
>> >number of chips. Having played against the guy on the button, even for
>> >a few hours, would help also.
>> >
>>
>> It's early in the sng. You haven't played him for hours.
>
>
>I play the same people quite often, even in the sit and goes we have
>now at Foxwoods. But this guy is a stranger.
Okay.
>
>Then I fold. You can always concede one difficult pot in this kind of
>situation. -
I've learned my lesson in sngs and I tend to fold AK to a raise.
Admittedly, I try not to play it postflop because I think I lack the
ability, but I'm finding I do a lot better if I avoid playing hands
that tend to be trouble for me (most of them) at the first few levels,
where there's not enough at stake for it to be worth bleeding chips.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 23:31:55
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 3:05 AM, Dr Zen wrote:
> I've learned my lesson in sngs and I tend to fold AK to a raise.
> Admittedly, I try not to play it postflop because I think I lack the
> ability, but I'm finding I do a lot better if I avoid playing hands
> that tend to be trouble for me (most of them) at the first few levels,
> where there's not enough at stake for it to be worth bleeding chips.
that sure does explain a lot.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
________________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:35:05
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote:
>I've learned my lesson in sngs and I tend to fold AK to a raise.
AK suited is the third best starting hand in poker, AK unsuited is not
far behind.
>Admittedly, I try not to play it postflop because I think I lack the
>ability,
A good way to practice is heads up - you see a lot more flops with
more marginal hands, and more marginal situations, than at a full
table.
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 17:56:49
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
> AK suited is the third best starting hand in poker, AK unsuited is not
> far behind.
Where'd you get this from?
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
________________________________________________________________________
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 02:45:18
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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"XaQ Morphy" <a1c5905@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>> AK suited is the third best starting hand in poker, AK unsuited is not
>> far behind.
>
>Where'd you get this from?
OK not technically 3rd best, even pocket 3's have a slight edge
preflop, but taking post flop playability into account....
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
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Date: 02 Dec 2006 18:55:03
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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> >> AK suited is the third best starting hand in poker, AK unsuited is not
> >> far behind.
> >
> >Where'd you get this from?
>
> OK not technically 3rd best, even pocket 3's have a slight edge
> preflop, but taking post flop playability into account....
I just want to know where you got it from, that's all. I'm pretty sure if
you google "best starting hand holdem" you'll find no list has AKs listed
as third best, and AKo is not close to it.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
-----
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 17:07:29
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
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"XaQ Morphy" <a1c5905@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>> >> AK suited is the third best starting hand in poker, AK unsuited is not
>> >> far behind.
>> >
>> >Where'd you get this from?
>>
>> OK not technically 3rd best, even pocket 3's have a slight edge
>> preflop, but taking post flop playability into account....
>
>I just want to know where you got it from, that's all. I'm pretty sure if
>you google "best starting hand holdem" you'll find n`o list has AKs listed
>as third best, and AKo is not close to it.
I recall Mike Sexton saying many pros regard AKs as the 3rd best
starting hand. Brunson, for one, prefers to see it over AA and KK. On
paper and online I've seen AKs ranked from 3rd to the bottom reaches
of the top 10. In my experience fold equity gives it a slight edge
over high pairs, QQ or less. YMMV.
Hand ranking is only a guide.. the point is it's right up there.
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 02:46:48
From: jgm
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Signal" <nobody@nowhere.com > wrote in message
news:s706n29l8ov4ehi37ovole5cdda1f7mgdj@4ax.com...
> Brunson, for one, prefers to see it over AA and KK.
Whether that is true, I don't know. But if Doyle ever said that, I highly
doubt it related to games where the stacks are likely around 50x the bb or
less.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:41:11
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com >
wrote:
>
>A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
>1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
Push or fold.
>2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise.
No, I don't.
> He pushes in. Do you
>call?
>
No.
>3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
>3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
No.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 15:50:25
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 4:41 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> >
> >1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
gun
> >raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
> >
>
> Push or fold.
That's awful advice. Blinds are 10/20, he pops it to 60, you have 1500
and your only options are push or fold? No wonder everyone here has no
respect for your advice. How is folding even an option? And why is
calling or reraising NOT an option?
If you routinely bet 1500 chips to win 90, you will be broke in no time.
>
> >2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise.
>
> No, I don't.
>
> > He pushes in. Do you
> >call?
> >
>
> No.
>
> >3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> >3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
>
> No.
>
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
---
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:26:17
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:50:25 -0800, "MysteriAce"
<a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>On Nov 30 2006 4:41 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>> >
>> >1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
>gun
>> >raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>> >
>>
>> Push or fold.
>
>That's awful advice. Blinds are 10/20, he pops it to 60, you have 1500
>and your only options are push or fold?
Yes.
> No wonder everyone here has no
>respect for your advice.
You are a cunt. Just so you know. I don't give a shit who respects
what. I'm trying to learn. If I have the wrong idea, why not show me
why, in your estimation, it's the wrong idea?
> How is folding even an option? And why is
>calling or reraising NOT an option?
>
Calling is possible but I am going to lose more often than I win and
the winnings won't tend to make up for it.
Reraising is an invitation to the raiser to push. I don't play fancy
$1000 buyin tourneys, dude. Where I play, you don't reraise anything
you won't either a/ lay down to a push without a qualm or b/ call the
push without a qualm.
>If you routinely bet 1500 chips to win 90, you will be broke in no time.
No, I don't. I fold in this spot.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 20:31:25
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
> I'm trying to learn. If I have the wrong idea, why not show me
> why, in your estimation, it's the wrong idea?
Constructive criticism here...you've shown yourself to be very hard to
discuss things with. You go out of your way to insist your ideas are the
only ones possible, and when people disagree, you either twist their words
around to change what they meant, do whatever it is you do to the posts to
make them really hard to follow (like quoting 15 previous messages to say
"LOL" or sometimes replying to the wrong person in the wrong post), or
flat out just calling people names.
No one wants to take the time to help you due to all of this. Just my
thoughts anyway.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 16:18:24
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:31:25 -0800, "XaQ Morphy"
<a1c5905@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>> I'm trying to learn. If I have the wrong idea, why not show me
>> why, in your estimation, it's the wrong idea?
>
>Constructive criticism here...you've shown yourself to be very hard to
>discuss things with.
The guy wasn't discussing anything. He was just acting all pompous and
shit.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:15:54
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
> The guy wasn't discussing anything. He was just acting all pompous and
> shit.
I wasn't talking about this thread as much as just in general. A lot of
RGP regulars don't even bother reading what you write because of the
things that I wrote above. Feel free to take that however you like.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 03:42:29
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Why would anyone want to risk it all on a 50-50 shot early in the
tournament? You lose and its over. If you win the hand you dont win the
tournament, so it seems like the balance between possible gain and loss
seems bad. You can gain chips but you can lose the tournament. Nota good
strategy early on.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 01:57:46
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 9:42 AM, ben carr wrote:
> Why would anyone want to risk it all on a 50-50 shot early in the
> tournament? You lose and its over. If you win the hand you dont win the
> tournament, so it seems like the balance between possible gain and loss
> seems bad. You can gain chips but you can lose the tournament. Nota good
> strategy early on.
if you knew it was a 50-50 (or rather 45-55) you wouldn't, or better you
wouldn't early. since pot odds dictate a call when the blinds get to
25-50.
it depends on what the buyin is really. at the SNGs i play currently
you'll often find people pushing AQ, sometimes even AJ or worse. but even
at higher buyins you're rarely far behind, so a push is definitely a good
move, calling all in, however, is a different story.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
_______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 08:30:51
From: igotskillz com
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
i want to play vs every one of u that suggest reraising allin w/ak
On Dec 1 2006 5:57 AM, xyious wrote:
> On Dec 1 2006 9:42 AM, ben carr wrote:
> > Why would anyone want to risk it all on a 50-50 shot early in the
> > tournament? You lose and its over. If you win the hand you dont win the
> > tournament, so it seems like the balance between possible gain and loss
> > seems bad. You can gain chips but you can lose the tournament. Nota good
> > strategy early on.
>
> if you knew it was a 50-50 (or rather 45-55) you wouldn't, or better you
> wouldn't early. since pot odds dictate a call when the blinds get to
> 25-50.
> it depends on what the buyin is really. at the SNGs i play currently
> you'll often find people pushing AQ, sometimes even AJ or worse. but even
> at higher buyins you're rarely far behind, so a push is definitely a good
> move, calling all in, however, is a different story.
>
>
> -Alexander Knopf
> http://www.xyious.com/?links
Thank YOU
www.igotskillz.com
------
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 08:57:08
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 5:30 PM, igotskillz com wrote:
> i want to play vs every one of u that suggest reraising allin w/ak
xyious on stars, i'll be in the $3.40 sngs, probably $6.50s.
i'm not really holding my breath tho.
>
>
>
> On Dec 1 2006 5:57 AM, xyious wrote:
>
> > On Dec 1 2006 9:42 AM, ben carr wrote:
> > > Why would anyone want to risk it all on a 50-50 shot early in the
> > > tournament? You lose and its over. If you win the hand you dont win the
> > > tournament, so it seems like the balance between possible gain and loss
> > > seems bad. You can gain chips but you can lose the tournament. Nota good
> > > strategy early on.
> >
> > if you knew it was a 50-50 (or rather 45-55) you wouldn't, or better you
> > wouldn't early. since pot odds dictate a call when the blinds get to
> > 25-50.
> > it depends on what the buyin is really. at the SNGs i play currently
> > you'll often find people pushing AQ, sometimes even AJ or worse. but even
> > at higher buyins you're rarely far behind, so a push is definitely a good
> > move, calling all in, however, is a different story.
> >
> >
> > -Alexander Knopf
> > http://www.xyious.com/?links
>
>
> Thank YOU
>
> www.igotskillz.com
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 18:02:38
From: igotskillz com
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
if u have position you could raise to see if HE pushes, then fold.If he
doesnt raise then u have 50/50 or better
if you call then you can decide on the flop.
if you push and are called, u are a 'dog at best
ak is a hand you can nail weaker aces with.
its only a good allin had with you last 8 blinds or so.
On Dec 1 2006 12:57 PM, xyious wrote:
> On Dec 1 2006 5:30 PM, igotskillz com wrote:
> > i want to play vs every one of u that suggest reraising allin w/ak
>
> xyious on stars, i'll be in the $3.40 sngs, probably $6.50s.
> i'm not really holding my breath tho.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 1 2006 5:57 AM, xyious wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 1 2006 9:42 AM, ben carr wrote:
> > > > Why would anyone want to risk it all on a 50-50 shot early in the
> > > > tournament? You lose and its over. If you win the hand you dont win the
> > > > tournament, so it seems like the balance between possible gain and loss
> > > > seems bad. You can gain chips but you can lose the tournament. Nota
good
> > > > strategy early on.
> > >
> > > if you knew it was a 50-50 (or rather 45-55) you wouldn't, or better you
> > > wouldn't early. since pot odds dictate a call when the blinds get to
> > > 25-50.
> > > it depends on what the buyin is really. at the SNGs i play currently
> > > you'll often find people pushing AQ, sometimes even AJ or worse. but even
> > > at higher buyins you're rarely far behind, so a push is definitely a good
> > > move, calling all in, however, is a different story.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Alexander Knopf
> > > http://www.xyious.com/?links
> >
> >
> > Thank YOU
> >
> > www.igotskillz.com
>
>
> -Alexander Knopf
> http://www.xyious.com/?links
Thank YOU
www.igotskillz.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 10:29:21
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 11:18 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:31:25 -0800, "XaQ Morphy"
> <a1c5905@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> I'm trying to learn. If I have the wrong idea, why not show me
> >> why, in your estimation, it's the wrong idea?
> >
> >Constructive criticism here...you've shown yourself to be very hard to
> >discuss things with.
>
> The guy wasn't discussing anything. He was just acting all pompous and
> shit.
Not being pompous, you simply gave really poor advice and didn't even give
a reason why you suggest it in the first place. If you want to learn,
then explain your reasoning and then discuss it.
Had you written out why you thought what you did, I would have addressed
that very nicely. But your reply was just "push or fold", which is both
terrible and not backed up with reasoning. You got what you had coming to
you.
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 23:54:29
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 5:31 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > I'm trying to learn. If I have the wrong idea, why not show me
> > why, in your estimation, it's the wrong idea?
>
> Constructive criticism here...you've shown yourself to be very hard to
> discuss things with. You go out of your way to insist your ideas are the
> only ones possible, and when people disagree, you either twist their words
> around to change what they meant, do whatever it is you do to the posts to
> make them really hard to follow (like quoting 15 previous messages to say
> "LOL" or sometimes replying to the wrong person in the wrong post), or
> flat out just calling people names.
you missed 2 points, sir.
he doesn't offer any reason for why he thinks someone's right, so you
can't really argue in the first place. and he just cuts out parts of the
post where the reasoning is too strong to disagree with (without
explaining yourself) as demonstrated in response to your post. which is
retarded considering the 15 quoted posts and the only thing that's cut out
is something he doesn't wanna hear.
> No one wants to take the time to help you due to all of this. Just my
> thoughts anyway.
i'm taking the time, but then i get flamed by people like.... for example,
you.
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:22:07
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
> i'm taking the time, but then i get flamed by people like.... for example,
> you.
Thing is, you don't know when to quit. Instead of realizing after message
2 or 3 that he isn't going to change his mind, you continue on for 20
messages, all quoting the same bullshit over and over again. Doesn't even
make sense for anyone else to follow along, so most people I talk to just
ignore it.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 10:34:14
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 6:22 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > i'm taking the time, but then i get flamed by people like.... for example,
> > you.
>
> Thing is, you don't know when to quit. Instead of realizing after message
> 2 or 3 that he isn't going to change his mind, you continue on for 20
> messages, all quoting the same bullshit over and over again. Doesn't even
> make sense for anyone else to follow along, so most people I talk to just
> ignore it.
good point. i'll work on that.
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:46:08
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote:
>>That's awful advice. Blinds are 10/20, he pops it to 60, you have 1500
>>and your only options are push or fold?
>
>Yes.
There are two other options, call or raise.
>>No wonder everyone here has no
>>respect for your advice.
>
>You are a cunt. Just so you know. I don't give a shit who respects
>what. I'm trying to learn.
You acknowledge that you are learning, but throw the toys out of the
pram when anybody gives you an alternative point of view. Seems to me
like you will learn at a very slow rate with that attitude.
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
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| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 14:02:07
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com> wrote:
>
> >A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> >1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
> >raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
> I see a flop. I think reraising here is bad specifically because if he jams,
> you're in an ugly situation. Getting it all in before the flop this early, you
> cancel out your positional advantage.
VERY good advise here
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 21:37:15
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 8:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
>
> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do
> you
> call?
>
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
1: call or push, depending on how I feel at the time. Both is good.
2: easy call, you are committed (assumping 2000 starting chips, blinds at 20/40,
he bet 160, you reraise 3x his raise, 160 plus 480 = 640) having committed
nearly 30% of your stack into the pot, and you would be getting the odds to call
unless he has AA. You might even be ahead of some idiot overplaying AQ.
3: Early in the STT, I'd fold.
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:52:55
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 06 21:37:15 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com >
wrote:
>
>
>
>On Nov 30 2006 8:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
>
>>
>> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>>
>> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>>
>> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do
>> you
>> call?
>>
>> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
>> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
>
>1: call or push, depending on how I feel at the time. Both is good.
>
Calling is not good. What do you do when you miss the flop and he
leads? Trying to play poker with AK in an SNG is a recipe for
disaster. I'd like to see all five cards or none at all.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 11:52 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 21:37:15 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >On Nov 30 2006 8:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> >>
> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
> >> gun
> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
> >>
> >> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in.
> >> Do
> >> you
> >> call?
> >>
> >> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> >> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
> >
> >1: call or push, depending on how I feel at the time. Both is good.
> >
>
> Calling is not good. What do you do when you miss the flop and he
> leads? Trying to play poker with AK in an SNG is a recipe for
> disaster. I'd like to see all five cards or none at all.
Why is calling not good? You have position, it is only costing you a very small
part of your stack to call....What is going to call your push? A pp, where you
are the small dog, very rarely AQ might call....why would you want to risk a
race this early when blinds are cheap? By calling, you might even be able to
stack him on an Ace high flop, should he hold AQ or AJ.
I said pushing is good sometimes, those times are when I am multi-tabling, and
just want to race for a big stack or bust, so that I can concentrate on my other
tables.
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
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| | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 14:23:31
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Fri, 01 Dec 06 3:01:37 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com >
wrote:
>
>On Nov 30 2006 11:52 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 21:37:15 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On Nov 30 2006 8:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
>> >> gun
>> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>> >>
>> >> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in.
>> >> Do
>> >> you
>> >> call?
>> >>
>> >> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
>> >> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
>> >
>> >1: call or push, depending on how I feel at the time. Both is good.
>> >
>>
>> Calling is not good. What do you do when you miss the flop and he
>> leads? Trying to play poker with AK in an SNG is a recipe for
>> disaster. I'd like to see all five cards or none at all.
>
>Why is calling not good? You have position, it is only costing you a very small
>part of your stack to call....
I generally find avoiding temptation works for me.
>What is going to call your push?
All sorts of shit. Dude, it's you who wants to push. I can happily
fold.
> A pp, where you
>are the small dog, very rarely AQ might call....why would you want to risk a
>race this early when blinds are cheap? By calling, you might even be able to
>stack him on an Ace high flop, should he hold AQ or AJ.
>
This is why I prefer to fold. I am just so much more likely to have
called A9 and the flop is A94. I'm only really happy with a K high
flop.
>I said pushing is good sometimes, those times are when I am multi-tabling, and
>just want to race for a big stack or bust, so that I can concentrate on my other
>tables.
Early in an sng, with little at stake, I prefer not to play hands like
AK. I prefer not to be calling, period, and particularly not with
hands that I'm looking to make a pair with. Yeah, sometimes, rather
rarely though, I'll stack someone who thinks AJ is good on an A high
flop and gets bold with it but not often enough in my view.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 14:02:12
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 4:23 AM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Dec 06 3:01:37 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >On Nov 30 2006 11:52 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 21:37:15 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On Nov 30 2006 8:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under
> >> >> the
> >> >> gun
> >> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or
> >> >> fold?
> >> >>
> >> >> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes
> >> >> in.
> >> >> Do
> >> >> you
> >> >> call?
> >> >>
> >> >> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you
> >> >> raise
> >> >> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
> >> >
> >> >1: call or push, depending on how I feel at the time. Both is good.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Calling is not good. What do you do when you miss the flop and he
> >> leads? Trying to play poker with AK in an SNG is a recipe for
> >> disaster. I'd like to see all five cards or none at all.
> >
> >Why is calling not good? You have position, it is only costing you a very
> >small
> >part of your stack to call....
>
> I generally find avoiding temptation works for me.
???? You think calling a small portion of your stack with one of the best
starting hands whilst in position is bad?????
You must always push or fold with AK even though you have a healthy stack and
the blinds are low?
> >What is going to call your push?
>
> All sorts of shit. Dude, it's you who wants to push. I can happily
> fold.
You keep on folding those AK at the button to a small raise, whilst holding a
very heathy stack. I am sure that you are right. I am just too tired to argue.
> > A pp, where you
> >are the small dog, very rarely AQ might call....why would you want to risk a
> >race this early when blinds are cheap? By calling, you might even be able to
> >stack him on an Ace high flop, should he hold AQ or AJ.
> >
>
> This is why I prefer to fold. I am just so much more likely to have
> called A9 and the flop is A94. I'm only really happy with a K high
> flop.
>
> >I said pushing is good sometimes, those times are when I am multi-tabling,
> >and
> >just want to race for a big stack or bust, so that I can concentrate on my
> >other
> >tables.
>
> Early in an sng, with little at stake, I prefer not to play hands like
> AK. I prefer not to be calling, period, and particularly not with
> hands that I'm looking to make a pair with. Yeah, sometimes, rather
> rarely though, I'll stack someone who thinks AJ is good on an A high
> flop and gets bold with it but not often enough in my view.
>
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 23:48:18
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Dec 1 2006 5:23 AM, Dr Zen wrote:
> > A pp, where you
> >are the small dog, very rarely AQ might call....why would you want to risk a
> >race this early when blinds are cheap? By calling, you might even be able
to
> >stack him on an Ace high flop, should he hold AQ or AJ.
> >
>
> This is why I prefer to fold. I am just so much more likely to have
> called A9 and the flop is A94. I'm only really happy with a K high
> flop.
no wonder you can't get beyond $1 sngs..... jesus.
you're afraid of an A94 flop when you have AK, but you're not afraid of a
K94 flop ? why raises A9 that doesn't K9 ?
> >I said pushing is good sometimes, those times are when I am multi-tabling,
and
> >just want to race for a big stack or bust, so that I can concentrate on my
other
> >tables.
>
> Early in an sng, with little at stake, I prefer not to play hands like
> AK. I prefer not to be calling, period, and particularly not with
> hands that I'm looking to make a pair with. Yeah, sometimes, rather
> rarely though, I'll stack someone who thinks AJ is good on an A high
> flop and gets bold with it but not often enough in my view.
you're gonna stack AJ if you're afraid of an A94 flop ???? that's just not
possible.
either you're afraid of an A94 flop or you call his push, it can't be both.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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| | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:57:16
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote:
>Calling is not good. What do you do when you miss the flop and he
>leads?
Shit your pants, according to you. :-)
>Trying to play poker with AK in an SNG is a recipe for
>disaster. I'd like to see all five cards or none at all.
LOL!
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 16:25:06
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com > wrote:
>A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
I see a flop. I think reraising here is bad specifically because if he jams,
you're in an ugly situation. Getting it all in before the flop this early, you
cancel out your positional advantage.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:51:21
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:25:06 -0500, A Man Beaten by Jacks
<nobody@fool.foo > wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com> wrote:
>
>>A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
>>1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>>raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
>I see a flop. I think reraising here is bad specifically because if he jams,
>you're in an ugly situation. Getting it all in before the flop this early, you
>cancel out your positional advantage.
The positional advantage is negated by his having the lead. If he has
a pair lower than Ks and the flop comes A or K high, he can check and
fold. If he has a smaller king or ace, you will make money but you
would regardless which position you were in. The rest of the time, you
are likely folding to his bet and all that calling achieved was to
give him some of your chips.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 21:26:51
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:51:21 +1000, Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:25:06 -0500, A Man Beaten by Jacks
><nobody@fool.foo> wrote:
>>On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com> wrote:
>>>A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>>>1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>>>raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>>I see a flop. I think reraising here is bad specifically because if he jams,
>>you're in an ugly situation. Getting it all in before the flop this early, you
>>cancel out your positional advantage.
>The positional advantage is negated by his having the lead.
Well, that's completely opposite of reality.
>If he has
>a pair lower than Ks and the flop comes A or K high, he can check and
>fold. If he has a smaller king or ace, you will make money but you
>would regardless which position you were in. The rest of the time, you
>are likely folding to his bet and all that calling achieved was to
>give him some of your chips.
I do not fold "the rest of the time." Sometimes I raise him. Sometimes
I call and raise the turn. This is only loosely related to whether I hit the
flop.
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:35:53
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:26:51 -0500, A Man Beaten by Jacks
<nobody@fool.foo > wrote:
>On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:51:21 +1000, Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:25:06 -0500, A Man Beaten by Jacks
>><nobody@fool.foo> wrote:
>
>>>On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:25:21 GMT, Teabagger <43078607@recpoker.com> wrote:
>
>>>>A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
>>>>1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>>>>raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
>>>I see a flop. I think reraising here is bad specifically because if he jams,
>>>you're in an ugly situation. Getting it all in before the flop this early, you
>>>cancel out your positional advantage.
>
>>The positional advantage is negated by his having the lead.
>
>Well, that's completely opposite of reality.
Sigh.
>
>>If he has
>>a pair lower than Ks and the flop comes A or K high, he can check and
>>fold. If he has a smaller king or ace, you will make money but you
>>would regardless which position you were in. The rest of the time, you
>>are likely folding to his bet and all that calling achieved was to
>>give him some of your chips.
>
>I do not fold "the rest of the time." Sometimes I raise him. Sometimes
>I call and raise the turn. This is only loosely related to whether I hit the
>flop.
Nice one. You rock. It's definitely the route to winning an sng: play
for big pots with small hands.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 03:36:50
From: jgm
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:2grum29e1esqju1aa0r93frprima98jcjg@4ax.com...
>>I see a flop. I think reraising here is bad specifically because if he
>>jams,
>>you're in an ugly situation. Getting it all in before the flop this
>>early, you
>>cancel out your positional advantage.
>
> The positional advantage is negated by his having the lead.
Him having the lead does not negate our having position and the likely best
hand. Re-raising him preflop likely makes his play a lot easier. Assuming
the stacks are not short.
> If he has
> a pair lower than Ks and the flop comes A or K high, he can check and
> fold.
We don't only call his preflop raise with AK. If he plays this cautiously,
we bet him off his hand when we have hands such as 99, TT instead of AK. And
we have some info we can use in future hands.
> The rest of the time, you
> are likely folding to his bet and all that calling achieved was to
> give him some of your chips.
4 bb's, big deal.
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 12:57:24
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 1:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
Probably just call. I have a big hand and I have position. Both those
things will work in my favor. Sometimes I might reraise, but with fairly
deep stacks I probably just call and figure out what I want to do after
the flop comes out.
>
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do
you
> call?
In a regular SNG, no, I fold it. In a turbo format I probably call.
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
Same answer as above.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_____________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:45:48
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:57:24 -0800, "MysteriAce"
<a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>On Nov 30 2006 1:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
>
>> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>>
>> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
>gun
>> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
>Probably just call. I have a big hand and I have position. Both those
>things will work in my favor. Sometimes I might reraise, but with fairly
>deep stacks I probably just call and figure out what I want to do after
>the flop comes out.
Same question again for you then. You miss the flop and the PF raiser
bets 1/3 of the pot. Your action?
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 15:55:15
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 4:45 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:57:24 -0800, "MysteriAce"
> <a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 30 2006 1:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
> >
> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> >>
> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
> >gun
> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
> >
> >Probably just call. I have a big hand and I have position. Both those
> >things will work in my favor. Sometimes I might reraise, but with fairly
> >deep stacks I probably just call and figure out what I want to do after
> >the flop comes out.
>
> Same question again for you then. You miss the flop and the PF raiser
> bets 1/3 of the pot. Your action?
That depends on what exactly the flop is. Most of the time, I would fold.
In STTs, you really don't want to spew chips all over the table early on,
because when the blinds escalate, you want to have those chips for
leverage. Early on, with low blind to stack ratio, AK is simply a drawing
hand. Nothing more. Later on it becomes a hammer hand, but for now it's
just a drawing hand. A high.
But I could see calling sometimes intending to play the turn or raising
the person on the flop. Again, it depends on the flop.
>
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
------
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:08:16
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:55:15 -0800, "MysteriAce"
<a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>On Nov 30 2006 4:45 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:57:24 -0800, "MysteriAce"
>> <a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Nov 30 2006 1:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
>> >
>> >> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
>> >gun
>> >> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>> >
>> >Probably just call. I have a big hand and I have position. Both those
>> >things will work in my favor. Sometimes I might reraise, but with fairly
>> >deep stacks I probably just call and figure out what I want to do after
>> >the flop comes out.
>>
>> Same question again for you then. You miss the flop and the PF raiser
>> bets 1/3 of the pot. Your action?
>
>That depends on what exactly the flop is.
Well, you missed, so we're saying no better than Q high and you have
no draw.
> Most of the time, I would fold.
> In STTs, you really don't want to spew chips all over the table early on,
>because when the blinds escalate, you want to have those chips for
>leverage.
That's my understanding.
> Early on, with low blind to stack ratio, AK is simply a drawing
>hand. Nothing more. Later on it becomes a hammer hand, but for now it's
>just a drawing hand. A high.
>
Okay, so why am I calling a raise with a drawing hand that does not
promise big implied odds? I can understand why I might call with a
pair or suited connectors, but if I do hit, I'm rarely going to make a
huge pot from it, am I? Or am I?
>But I could see calling sometimes intending to play the turn or raising
>the person on the flop. Again, it depends on the flop.
What flops are good for you?
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:51:22
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote:
>>> Same question again for you then. You miss the flop and the PF raiser
>>> bets 1/3 of the pot. Your action?
>>
>>That depends on what exactly the flop is.
>
>Well, you missed, so we're saying no better than Q high and you have
>no draw.
Have you established how your opponent plays yet? Are they likely to
make a continuation bet even if they miss? A reraise can sometimes win
the pot here, especially if they have an underpair - but you have to
know your opponent.
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 03:20:34
From: jgm
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:jf3vm2l6h30ebe2g4budtoh7ahaq4tgbno@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:55:15 -0800, "MysteriAce"
>> Early on, with low blind to stack ratio, AK is simply a drawing
>>hand. Nothing more. Later on it becomes a hammer hand, but for now it's
>>just a drawing hand. A high.
>>
>
> Okay, so why am I calling a raise with a drawing hand that does not
> promise big implied odds?
Why doesn't it promise big implied odds? What if your op has AQ, AJ and an
ace comes. Or KQ and a K comes? Or QQ and TJQ flops? etc.
Besides, we don't need huge implied odds anyway, as we will often hit top
pair or better, and can also hit some kind of playable flops when we don't
pair. Calling may also bring in one of the blinds, meaning we get the direct
pot odds of 2-1.
Re-raising sticks our neck out to chase a small pot; encourages hands like
worse aces and kings to fold; creating a big pot if they call whilst
missing the flop half of the time - with virtually no info on our opponent.
> I can understand why I might call with a
> pair or suited connectors, but if I do hit, I'm rarely going to make a
> huge pot from it, am I? Or am I?
Depends what you consider huge. Starting the hand with 50x bb or so, it's
very possible to double through. With much deeper money, you may not double
through, but you will win enough when best, and you also won't lose as much
when you miss or get beat. So, it's normally still best not to inflate the
pot early in the hand. The deeper the money, the more that holds true I
think. You will also usually win more when you hit, as the opponent may then
be in there with a 2nd best hand that they would have folded to a re-raise
preflop- such as AJ or KQ etc.
>>But I could see calling sometimes intending to play the turn or raising
>>the person on the flop. Again, it depends on the flop.
>
> What flops are good for you?
Against an unknown player on the first hand, I wouldn't get tricky when I
miss the flop. With more knowledge of the dynamics and a suitable flop
texture, I may.
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 20:57:45
From: Stu Ungar Fan
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Call and see the flop. You have position, use it. As for the raiser, you have to
initially give him credit for a big pair. That is until you get the chance to
know him better.
http://stuungar.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:46:58
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:57:45 GMT, Stu Ungar Fan <43086535@recpoker.com >
wrote:
>Call and see the flop. You have position, use it. As for the raiser, you have to
>initially give him credit for a big pair.
If you are giving the raiser credit for a big pair, your call is
terrible.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 15:55:41
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 4:46 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:57:45 GMT, Stu Ungar Fan <43086535@recpoker.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Call and see the flop. You have position, use it. As for the raiser, you
have to
> >initially give him credit for a big pair.
>
> If you are giving the raiser credit for a big pair, your call is
> terrible.
Why. Please quantify your answer.
>
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
________________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:21:37
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:55:41 -0800, "MysteriAce"
<a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>On Nov 30 2006 4:46 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:57:45 GMT, Stu Ungar Fan <43086535@recpoker.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Call and see the flop. You have position, use it. As for the raiser, you
>have to
>> >initially give him credit for a big pair.
>>
>> If you are giving the raiser credit for a big pair, your call is
>> terrible.
>
>Why. Please quantify your answer.
I am behind all big pairs and there is little overlay from the blinds.
At a generous reading of "big pair", raiser's range is AA-JJ.
Admittedly, he's more likely to have QQ-JJ than AA-KK (12 ways
combined vs 6 ways combined).
If I flop a K or an A, and raiser has QQ-JJ, he checks and folds. I'm
assuming he'll check/fold KK on an A high flop. You might think those
assumptions are off but anyone tight enough to have that raising range
is likely to not be willing to put money in with an OC on the board.
If I flop anything lower than a Q, I am folding to his bet.
So how do I make money from this guy? One in three times I flop a pair
but I need that to coincide with the 2 out of 3 times he has QQ-JJ.
Sorry, I'm not good enough at maths to work out how often that means I
will win his raise from him, but I can see that it's a lot less than
half the time, so it cannot be profitable to have called the raise. I
can't see how I would win more than that because he's not playing on
with QQ-JJ on a flop that I beat him on.
Even if I do flop a pair though, I more or less have to check it down
behind him because I am going to be terrified of the C/R. I can't
actually make anything if he's check/folding.
So I think it's a terrible call. And particularly terrible if you
consider big pairs to be only AA-QQ.
You don't think so, you tell me what I got wrong there.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 10:17:42
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 7:21 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:55:41 -0800, "MysteriAce"
> <a9c1edc@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 30 2006 4:46 PM, Dr Zen wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 30 Nov 06 20:57:45 GMT, Stu Ungar Fan <43086535@recpoker.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Call and see the flop. You have position, use it. As for the raiser, you
> >have to
> >> >initially give him credit for a big pair.
> >>
> >> If you are giving the raiser credit for a big pair, your call is
> >> terrible.
> >
> >Why. Please quantify your answer.
>
> I am behind all big pairs and there is little overlay from the blinds.
>
> At a generous reading of "big pair", raiser's range is AA-JJ.
> Admittedly, he's more likely to have QQ-JJ than AA-KK (12 ways
> combined vs 6 ways combined).
>
> If I flop a K or an A, and raiser has QQ-JJ, he checks and folds. I'm
> assuming he'll check/fold KK on an A high flop. You might think those
> assumptions are off but anyone tight enough to have that raising range
> is likely to not be willing to put money in with an OC on the board.
>
> If I flop anything lower than a Q, I am folding to his bet.
>
> So how do I make money from this guy? One in three times I flop a pair
> but I need that to coincide with the 2 out of 3 times he has QQ-JJ.
> Sorry, I'm not good enough at maths to work out how often that means I
> will win his raise from him, but I can see that it's a lot less than
> half the time, so it cannot be profitable to have called the raise. I
> can't see how I would win more than that because he's not playing on
> with QQ-JJ on a flop that I beat him on.
>
> Even if I do flop a pair though, I more or less have to check it down
> behind him because I am going to be terrified of the C/R. I can't
> actually make anything if he's check/folding.
>
> So I think it's a terrible call. And particularly terrible if you
> consider big pairs to be only AA-QQ.
>
> You don't think so, you tell me what I got wrong there.
What do you think happens when they have AQ/AJ and an A flops? Or KQ and
a K flops?
> --
>
> Dr Zen
> King of the wild pixels.
> http://gollyg.blogspot.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_______________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:52:55
From: Signal
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Dr Zen <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote:
>If I flop a K or an A, and raiser has QQ-JJ, he checks and folds. I'm
>assuming he'll check/fold KK on an A high flop.
NEVER assume.
--
S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
|
| | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 13:28:10
From: XFactor
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
If you have position, then use it by raising to find out where you stand.
You may win the pot now, getting tight players to fold JJ. You also may be
up against the same hand or a weak AQ, which should fold. Yet, if the
person was dumb enough to call a reraise with those two hands and the flop
misses you both , you can take the pot with a decent bet on the flop
because you have shown greater strength than he has. But, why call and
allow any number of hand holdings to make their hand? Even if your
opponent reraises all-in, you can still release your hand and have chips
to work with.
On Nov 30 2006 4:57 PM, Stu Ungar Fan wrote:
> Call and see the flop. You have position, use it. As for the raiser, you
have to
> initially give him credit for a big pair. That is until you get the chance to
> know him better.
> http://stuungar.blogspot.com
_____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:49:06
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:28:10 -0800, "XFactor" <xfacktor@gmail.com >
wrote:
>If you have position, then use it by raising to find out where you stand.
>You may win the pot now, getting tight players to fold JJ. You also may be
>up against the same hand or a weak AQ, which should fold. Yet, if the
>person was dumb enough to call a reraise with those two hands and the flop
>misses you both , you can take the pot with a decent bet on the flop
>because you have shown greater strength than he has. But, why call and
>allow any number of hand holdings to make their hand? Even if your
>opponent reraises all-in, you can still release your hand and have chips
>to work with.
I think this is at least closer to it. The thing is, if you reraise,
you have the lead. If you just call, the other guy does. If you whiff
the flop and he cbets, you've just handed AQ a chunk of chips. Given
that your plan in an sng is to survive with enough chips to get into
the money, that isn't smart.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 03:22:45
From: jgm
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:6crum2drcg36sme9umc1ml0t5cfhcnsif8@4ax.com...
> I think this is at least closer to it. The thing is, if you reraise,
> you have the lead. If you just call, the other guy does. If you whiff
> the flop and he cbets, you've just handed AQ a chunk of chips.
4 big blinds is a chunk of chips?
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 12:56:31
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Teabagger wrote:
> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
Stacks may be relatively even, I can accept that. However, they are
SOME size in relation to the blinds. That is important information.
In many situations, I would call. Having position with lots of chips
left to bet can be a very good thing. If my next normal raise would be
all-in, I might do that because there isn't enough advantage having
position when we are both pot-committed or nearly so. There are people
against whom I would fold in certain situations. Not many people and
not many situations.
>
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do you
> call?
How much will I have left, in relation to the blinds, if I fold? How
much do I have to call? This isn't rocket science but you leave out
enough information to drive a truck through.
>
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
Not enough information. In many situations it is ok to take the short
end of a race because you need chips. In others, you have a comfortable
number of chips. Having played against the guy on the button, even for
a few hours, would help also.
Will in New Haven
--
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:45:03
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On 30 Nov 2006 12:56:31 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:
>
>Teabagger wrote:
>> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>>
>> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the gun
>> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
>Stacks may be relatively even, I can accept that. However, they are
>SOME size in relation to the blinds. That is important information.
It's early, Will, so they are much, much bigger than the blinds.
>In many situations, I would call. Having position with lots of chips
>left to bet can be a very good thing. If my next normal raise would be
>all-in, I might do that because there isn't enough advantage having
>position when we are both pot-committed or nearly so. There are people
>against whom I would fold in certain situations. Not many people and
>not many situations.
>
Okay, you call and miss the flop. The other guy makes a 1/3 pot bet.
Your action?
>>
>> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do you
>> call?
>
>How much will I have left, in relation to the blinds, if I fold?
Make the blinds 15-30. You started with 1500, so let's assume you
still have 1420 or something like that.
> How
>much do I have to call? This isn't rocket science but you leave out
>enough information to drive a truck through.
>
The information doesn't matter. Early in the sng you're folding.
>> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
>> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
>
>Not enough information. In many situations it is ok to take the short
>end of a race because you need chips.
If stacks are even early in an sng, you do not need chips.
> In others, you have a comfortable
>number of chips. Having played against the guy on the button, even for
>a few hours, would help also.
>
It's early in the sng. You haven't played him for hours.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 15:48:27
From: John B.
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Key word for me here is "EARLY". Soooooooooo...
1. I'll call and see the flop - take it from there.
2. No. Too early. Too many chances to bust out (first?).
3. No. Same as above.
I will be watching Mr. UTG like a hawk now. I'd rather have SOME kind of
read on a player before committing all of my chips at this stage. Unless
I'm holding AA, of course...
John B.
"Teabagger" <43078607@recpoker.com > wrote in message
news:1164918321$914080@recpoker.com...
>
> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
>
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in.
Do you
> call?
>
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you
raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 16:11:43
From: John B.
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
...But, I HAVE called in sceniario #2 - in a Turbo game. Very first hand.
He turned over AA. The flop came KK3, which held. He was PISSED (and GONE)
and I did feel rather sleazy sucking out like that. But it did help me go
on to win with such a nice lead so early. Oh well.
John B.
"John B." <jlb@computac.com > wrote in message
news:1164919705.838321@nfs-db1.segnet.com...
> Key word for me here is "EARLY". Soooooooooo...
>
> 1. I'll call and see the flop - take it from there.
>
> 2. No. Too early. Too many chances to bust out (first?).
>
> 3. No. Same as above.
>
> I will be watching Mr. UTG like a hawk now. I'd rather have SOME kind of
> read on a player before committing all of my chips at this stage. Unless
> I'm holding AA, of course...
>
> John B.
>
> "Teabagger" <43078607@recpoker.com> wrote in message
> news:1164918321$914080@recpoker.com...
> >
> > A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
> >
> > 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under
the
> gun
> > raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or
fold?
> >
> > 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes
in.
> Do you
> > call?
> >
> > 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you
> raise
> > 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
>
>
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 09:42:05
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:11:43 -0500, "John B." <jlb@computac.com >
wrote:
>...But, I HAVE called in sceniario #2 - in a Turbo game.
In the one-dollar turbos I enjoy, the answers are different. I push AK
at any opportunity and I call allins with it without hesitation.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 18:45:10
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:41rum2hg1vh2c9luofi4p4khvrf6956d1t@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:11:43 -0500, "John B." <jlb@computac.com>
> wrote:
>
>>...But, I HAVE called in sceniario #2 - in a Turbo game.
>
> In the one-dollar turbos I enjoy, the answers are different. I push AK
> at any opportunity and I call allins with it without hesitation.
What sites do you play on Zen?
Would love to sng with ya some time.
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 12:02:06
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:45:10 -0500, "Mark B \(Diputsur\)"
<diputsur@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:41rum2hg1vh2c9luofi4p4khvrf6956d1t@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:11:43 -0500, "John B." <jlb@computac.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>...But, I HAVE called in sceniario #2 - in a Turbo game.
>>
>> In the one-dollar turbos I enjoy, the answers are different. I push AK
>> at any opportunity and I call allins with it without hesitation.
>
>What sites do you play on Zen?
Mostly on PokerRoom. I play some on Stars, but I have very little
money there so only ultrasmall stuff.
>Would love to sng with ya some time.
Sure. I prefer to play total incompetents but I don't mind the odd
just incompetent.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 13:20:45
From: Mark B \(Diputsur\)
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:o63vm2115hf3odl4rbs11albripnpqs6lm@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:45:10 -0500, "Mark B \(Diputsur\)"
> <diputsur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:41rum2hg1vh2c9luofi4p4khvrf6956d1t@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:11:43 -0500, "John B." <jlb@computac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>...But, I HAVE called in sceniario #2 - in a Turbo game.
>>>
>>> In the one-dollar turbos I enjoy, the answers are different. I push AK
>>> at any opportunity and I call allins with it without hesitation.
>>
>>What sites do you play on Zen?
>
> Mostly on PokerRoom. I play some on Stars, but I have very little
> money there so only ultrasmall stuff.
>
>>Would love to sng with ya some time.
>
> Sure. I prefer to play total incompetents but I don't mind the odd
> just incompetent.
I'm not on Stars yet, but I'll probably be making a deposit over
there after clearing my FTP deposit bonuses. Don't piss away
all your money until I get there ;-)
Mark
--
www.myspace.com/diputsur
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 00:12:35
From: Douglas Dunn
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
MysteriAce wrote:
> If you routinely bet 1500 chips to win 90, you will be broke in no time.
Don't try and tell Russ G that :P
Doug
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 23:29:19
From: xyious
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
On Nov 30 2006 9:25 PM, Teabagger wrote:
> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
hope noone would fold this.
i push.
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in. Do
you
> call?
yep.
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
yes !
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
_____________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 09:49:31
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
Signal wrote:
> "XaQ Morphy" <a1c5905@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> >> AK suited is the third best starting hand in poker, AK unsuited is not
> >> >> far behind.
> >> >
> >> >Where'd you get this from?
> >>
> >> OK not technically 3rd best, even pocket 3's have a slight edge
> >> preflop, but taking post flop playability into account....
> >
> >I just want to know where you got it from, that's all. I'm pretty sure if
> >you google "best starting hand holdem" you'll find n`o list has AKs listed
> >as third best, and AKo is not close to it.
>
> I recall Mike Sexton saying many pros regard AKs as the 3rd best
> starting hand. Brunson, for one, prefers to see it over AA and KK. On
> paper and online I've seen AKs ranked from 3rd to the bottom reaches
> of the top 10. In my experience fold equity gives it a slight edge
> over high pairs, QQ or less. YMMV.
>
> Hand ranking is only a guide.. the point is it's right up there.
Hand ranking is a guide that SHOULD change with the nature of the game
and it is non-linear in any case.
Let's look at hands in a NL tournament situation where the stacks are
relatively small, compared to the blinds and antes, so getting heavily
involved pre-flopped may be pot-committing.
It is easy enough to see that AK is an underdog to, say TT. However,
you don't know what your opponent has, so the two hands may not be
directly opposed. What we know is that our opponent seems willing to go
to the mat.
If your opponent has QQ or JJ, AK is a live dog but TT is really bad
off. So there are twelve card combinations that my opponent can have,
where I would rather have AK. We have some fold equity against both
hands but damn little against Queens and not much against Jacks.
If your opponent has KK, AK is badly off but TT is worse. If I have AK,
there are only four card combinations where my opponent can have KK. If
I have TT, there are six.
If my opponent has AA, TT is somewhat better off than TT but we are
both hurting puppies. However, again, If I have AK, there are only
four card combinations where my opponent can have AA. If I have TT,
there are six.
I am more likely to be facing either of these death hands if I have TT.
If my opponent has 99 or 88, we both have fold equity. The difference
here is that we would much rather have them fold if we have AK. With
TT, we don't want the fold equity against these hands. I would rather,
obviously, have TT against these twelve card combinations but it isn't
as important because people will often fold these hands if you push,
depending on tournament conditions.
What if we have opponents who are willing to go to the mat with AQ or
AJ. Against those, we are a favorite with TT but it's just another race
and we will lose almost half the time. With AK, we are a dominating
favorite against those hands. That is thirty-two combinations where TT
are a favorite in a race but only twenty-four where AK are a bigger
favorite (because we have an A, of course) You could throw KQ into the
mix if you were facing someone who thought he needed to make a move.
So you can see that, _in this specific situation_ there is a very good
case that AK is better than TT, even though TT is the favorite headsup.
The case must be much weaker that AK is better than JJ, even in this
situation, and I don't think that it is. Ranking it as better than
Queens would be very odd, in my opinion.
That makes AK, in my opinion, the fifth best hand in this specific
situation.
Giving a brief look to cash NL where the preflop action is likely to be
only a small fraction of any player's stack, I think AKo drops
considerably and all pairs move up. That is because AK when it hits
usually hits top pair, best kicker. When a pair hits, it hits a set or
an overpair. You can win a huge pot with a set and a decent pot with an
overpair, although you have to play it more carefully. Of course,
almost everything that matters in these games happens post-flop, so
pre-flop hand rankings have less relevance.
In the usual tournament situation, I don't separate AKs and AKo in my
rankings but AKs is still a great hand in deep-stack NL. AKo is not a
great hand. I would rank AKs as still around the seventh best hand and
AKo isn't all that good.
Well, that's my analysis. I didn't deal with where AK ranks in LHE.
Will in New Haven
--
"Pot-Limit has more thinking involved; young people can't think"
Norm Chad
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
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Date: 07 Dec 2006 02:27:31
From: jgm
Subject: Re: The inevitable AK debate
|
"Teabagger" <43078607@recpoker.com > wrote in message
news:1164918321$914080@recpoker.com...
>
> A couple of scenarios, looking for opinions:
>
> 1. Early in a STT, stacks are relatively even, an unknown player under the
> gun
> raises 4xBB. You, sitting on the button have AKo. Call, re-raise or fold?
With 40 or more BB's in the stacks, usually call. With less than 40 BB
stacks, usually re-aise.
> 2. In the previous scenario, you re-raise him 3x his raise. He pushes in.
> Do you
> call?
I would usually fold if we both started the hand with 40bb's or more, and
usually call if we started with less than 40.
> 3. You are in MP now in a similar situation to #1. Folded to you, you
> raise
> 3.5xBB. The butoon moves in. Do you call?
Depends how big an overbet the raise was. If we both started with less than
35x the bb, then I will usually call the allin there. If we started with
more in the stacks, it would depend - but I would lean towards folding with
no knowledge of the player or dynamics. To call, I would need reason to
think it likely they can have worse aces in their range.
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