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Main
Date: 03 Dec 23:22:09
From: Kincaid
Subject: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't post
results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
$2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or inexperienced.
Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either another
$5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them both as
aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
game.
The hand:
Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player to
your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
You have ~$350 more.
He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 20:36:12
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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Ron Sperber wrote:
> Let's see if I have this right. you've raised to 30, he's reraised to
> 110. you have 350 left, he has 390, and you want to reraise to about
> 240? I don't get it. What is the advantage here?
I assume you haven't read where I replied to this already. The
difference is covering a wider range of hands, in case you're
misreading, by getting pot commitment.
> Let's say for whatever
> reason he just calls this reraise rather than push for the extra $140
> you have left. If he really has AA/KK nothing changes postflop unless an
> A or K flops. Now you're OOP. Lets say the flop comes Kxx. What are you
> doing here? check-calling? check-folding? pushing?
You're pushing no matter what. YOUR actions are never even a question.
Like I said, you push no matter what flops. All you want to o is
maximize the chances of him calling your every bet.
> The best case
> scenario for you is that he has AA, you push and he folds fearing KK,
> but that is rather unlikely. On the other hand if an ace DOES flop
> (unlikely, but possible) you've made it impossible to extract that last
> $140 from him.
The chances of either an A or K flopping if it's AA vs KK are low. More
importantly, it's difficult to put you on AA because you DIDN'T push
all in pre flop. If he has AK or QQ or JJ, he's been pot committed all
the way through.
> I agree that exactly AA/KK sounds awfully narrow for a
> range here unless you know the player VERY well. And frankly if that is
> the exact range, I'm sure the other player is calling here even with KK
> unless he has a hell of a read on you. I just don't think the stacks are
> deep enough for a reraise that isn't a jam. He's not pot committed,
> true, but any hand he's calling a raise to $240 (or thereabouts) he's
> calling you if you push.
I disagree. I think you broaden the call range by 2 to 4 hands.
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 19:15:47
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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Kincaid wrote:
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
A lot of people are saying jam, but I disagree. I don't think he's pot
committed enough yet. I say you double him plus about 10 percent, then
if he calls, jam no matter what flops.
You need to commit him to the pot, and if you're willing to jam anyway,
you need to risk the flop in order to suck him all in. You think you're
80 / 20? Then you need to play as in if you're 80 / 20.
Others play differently, and that's they're thing. I'd rather bait the
hook, firm it up, then land him.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 04:26:27
From: Ron Sperber
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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Bill Ricardi wrote:
> Kincaid wrote:
>
>
>>So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
>
>
> A lot of people are saying jam, but I disagree. I don't think he's pot
> committed enough yet. I say you double him plus about 10 percent, then
> if he calls, jam no matter what flops.
>
> You need to commit him to the pot, and if you're willing to jam anyway,
> you need to risk the flop in order to suck him all in. You think you're
> 80 / 20? Then you need to play as in if you're 80 / 20.
>
> Others play differently, and that's they're thing. I'd rather bait the
> hook, firm it up, then land him.
>
Let's see if I have this right. you've raised to 30, he's reraised to
110. you have 350 left, he has 390, and you want to reraise to about
240? I don't get it. What is the advantage here? Let's say for whatever
reason he just calls this reraise rather than push for the extra $140
you have left. If he really has AA/KK nothing changes postflop unless an
A or K flops. Now you're OOP. Lets say the flop comes Kxx. What are you
doing here? check-calling? check-folding? pushing? The best case
scenario for you is that he has AA, you push and he folds fearing KK,
but that is rather unlikely. On the other hand if an ace DOES flop
(unlikely, but possible) you've made it impossible to extract that last
$140 from him. I agree that exactly AA/KK sounds awfully narrow for a
range here unless you know the player VERY well. And frankly if that is
the exact range, I'm sure the other player is calling here even with KK
unless he has a hell of a read on you. I just don't think the stacks are
deep enough for a reraise that isn't a jam. He's not pot committed,
true, but any hand he's calling a raise to $240 (or thereabouts) he's
calling you if you push.
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 19:56:42
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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Nick Wool wrote:
> But if the fish is biting come what may....? He says he was 100% certain that
> the other guy was on AA/KK...so the other guy was going to call any preflop push
> preflop...so why the need for FPS?
There's no way to be 100 percent certain. Reraise-push covers a better
range of hands including QQ and AK, and is still appropriate 90 percent
of the time for AA and KK.
I don't like to minimize my gains on a magical read. Some people have
them, but I find that these same people with '100% sure' reads are
wrong 50% of the time.
> Say we played it your way...if an ace flops, that will kill all the action,
> right? I cant see KK here giving any strong action, can you?
Chances of an Ace flopping is very low, since you have 2 of them. And
the entire point of pot committing him is that the last hundred and
fifty bucks is pretty much a forced call.
> If a king flops, the guys bet strongly, what now? You had him on AA/KK, so you
> are either a very big dog, or calling for a chop...Not really the best position
> to be in.
Again, chances of flopping trips, very low, and what the hell's the
difference? If he had kings, he would have called your all in and
flopped trips anyway. Same result.
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 20:31:10
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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Nick Wool wrote:
> You really dont know? The difference is between being the big favourite or the
> big dog when the chips went in. It really shouldn't matter how the hand played
> out as you are constantly the former.
I really do know. I know that if you have AA, all the chips are getting
in. No miracle read of trips is going to prevent you from putting 100
more bucks into that 400+ pot. There's no real world difference if the
K hits, without marked cards, psychic powers, or X-ray vision. Again,
you were screwed either way.
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Date: 04 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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On Dec 4 2006 3:56 AM, Bill Ricardi wrote:
> Nick Wool wrote:
>
>
> > But if the fish is biting come what may....? He says he was 100% certain
> > that
> > the other guy was on AA/KK...so the other guy was going to call any preflop
> > push
> > preflop...so why the need for FPS?
>
> There's no way to be 100 percent certain. Reraise-push covers a better
> range of hands including QQ and AK, and is still appropriate 90 percent
> of the time for AA and KK.
>
> I don't like to minimize my gains on a magical read. Some people have
> them, but I find that these same people with '100% sure' reads are
> wrong 50% of the time.
Well, ok. But I was under the impression we were judging the play by his read,
not how to play AA preflop normally .
> > Say we played it your way...if an ace flops, that will kill all the action,
> > right? I cant see KK here giving any strong action, can you?
>
> Chances of an Ace flopping is very low, since you have 2 of them. And
> the entire point of pot committing him is that the last hundred and
> fifty bucks is pretty much a forced call.
Again, I would agree with that, but if we stick to the OP's question, which was
how best to play the hand if the other guy had AA/KK....
>
> > If a king flops, the guys bet strongly, what now? You had him on AA/KK, so
> > you
> > are either a very big dog, or calling for a chop...Not really the best
> > position
> > to be in.
>
> Again, chances of flopping trips, very low, and what the hell's the
> difference? If he had kings, he would have called your all in and
> flopped trips anyway. Same result.
You really dont know? The difference is between being the big favourite or the
big dog when the chips went in. It really shouldn't matter how the hand played
out as you are constantly the former.
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Date: 04 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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On Dec 4 2006 3:15 AM, Bill Ricardi wrote:
> Kincaid wrote:
>
> > So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
>
> A lot of people are saying jam, but I disagree. I don't think he's pot
> committed enough yet. I say you double him plus about 10 percent, then
> if he calls, jam no matter what flops.
>
> You need to commit him to the pot, and if you're willing to jam anyway,
> you need to risk the flop in order to suck him all in. You think you're
> 80 / 20? Then you need to play as in if you're 80 / 20.
>
> Others play differently, and that's they're thing. I'd rather bait the
> hook, firm it up, then land him.
But if the fish is biting come what may....? He says he was 100% certain that
the other guy was on AA/KK...so the other guy was going to call any preflop push
preflop...so why the need for FPS?
Say we played it your way...if an ace flops, that will kill all the action,
right? I cant see KK here giving any strong action, can you?
If a king flops, the guys bet strongly, what now? You had him on AA/KK, so you
are either a very big dog, or calling for a chop...Not really the best position
to be in.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 06:25:36
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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> A lot of people are saying jam, but I disagree. I don't think he's pot
> committed enough yet. I say you double him plus about 10 percent, then
> if he calls, jam no matter what flops.
>
> You need to commit him to the pot, and if you're willing to jam anyway,
> you need to risk the flop in order to suck him all in. You think you're
> 80 / 20? Then you need to play as in if you're 80 / 20.
>
> Others play differently, and that's they're thing. I'd rather bait the
> hook, firm it up, then land him.
The thing I don't like about this...let's say you're wrong about the AA/KK
read and he has say AK or QQ, or even JJ. With $350 left, putting another
raise in that isn't a jam is a huge sign of strength, and if he is a
decent player as the OP alluded, he should be able to get off this hand
very easily.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 04 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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On Dec 3 2006 11:22 PM, Kincaid wrote:
> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't
> post
> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>
> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
> inexperienced.
> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
> another
> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them both
> as
> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
> game.
>
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
If you are sure that he has AA/KK, which means that he will call any raise from
you, push it all in. No brainer really, so I am not sure why you are asking the
question.
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Date: 04 Dec
From: Tanya AKA MissT74
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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I'm all in.
T
On Dec 3 2006 4:22 PM, Kincaid wrote:
> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't
> post
> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>
> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
> inexperienced.
> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
> another
> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them both
> as
> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
> game.
>
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:56:34
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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On Dec 3 2006 4:22 PM, Kincaid wrote:
> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't
post
> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>
> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
inexperienced.
> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
another
> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
both as
> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
> game.
>
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player
to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
All in. He is not likely getting away from KK.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:31:41
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player
to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
Is this a trick question?
Jam. If the player plays fairly well there's no way they will fold KK
pre-flop. Get your money in
as a huge favorite if he has KK, or get sucked out on by some sick flush
if he has AA.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
-----
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Date: 04 Dec
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
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Not a trick question. Just looking for the different interpretations of how to
play this hand. Some might advocate a different line.
I know what I did and I know why I did it.
On Dec 3 2006 3:31 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > The hand:
> > Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player
> to
> > your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
> >
> > You have ~$350 more.
> > He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> > Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
> >
> > So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
> Is this a trick question?
>
> Jam. If the player plays fairly well there's no way they will fold KK
> pre-flop. Get your money in
> as a huge favorite if he has KK, or get sucked out on by some sick flush
> if he has AA.
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 08:20:17
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
> Not a trick question. Just looking for the different interpretations of how
to
> play this hand. Some might advocate a different line.
>
> I know what I did and I know why I did it.
I'm not interested in who won the pot, but was wondering 2 things:
1) what did you do (and why)?
2) were you correct on your read of him having AA/KK?
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 04 Dec 19:45:57
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
I pushed because I wanted my hand to be better disguised. My read was that he
had KK. I felt a reraise would suggest AA better than a push would. So I
pushed hoping he'd put me on a range from JJ to AA.
My read was correct.
On Dec 4 2006 8:20 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > Not a trick question. Just looking for the different interpretations of how
> to
> > play this hand. Some might advocate a different line.
> >
> > I know what I did and I know why I did it.
>
> I'm not interested in who won the pot, but was wondering 2 things:
>
> 1) what did you do (and why)?
> 2) were you correct on your read of him having AA/KK?
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 07:06:18
From: alan
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
caution is still needed.
The other player has already done your work for you-- his big bet has
eliminated all of the other players except you.
I would call his big raise and see the flop. It's only the two of you.
When playing AA you want to eliminate as many other players as you can
without eliminating ALL of the possible action at the table.
AT a $2/$5 NL game Ive never bet more than $100 pre flop with AA and
that usually eliminates all but one player. when I am in early
position with AA I sometimes have to bet just $50 pre flop and hope I
dont get too many callers -- but at least one.
Once I was first to act pre flop at a very tight table, and all I bet
was $25 pre flop because I was afraid all I would do is scare away
everybody and just collect the blinds if I bet more. As it turned out,
all I did was get the blinds-- not one caller.
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > A lot of people are saying jam, but I disagree. I don't think he's pot
> > committed enough yet. I say you double him plus about 10 percent, then
> > if he calls, jam no matter what flops.
> >
> > You need to commit him to the pot, and if you're willing to jam anyway,
> > you need to risk the flop in order to suck him all in. You think you're
> > 80 / 20? Then you need to play as in if you're 80 / 20.
> >
> > Others play differently, and that's they're thing. I'd rather bait the
> > hook, firm it up, then land him.
>
> The thing I don't like about this...let's say you're wrong about the AA/KK
> read and he has say AK or QQ, or even JJ. With $350 left, putting another
> raise in that isn't a jam is a huge sign of strength, and if he is a
> decent player as the OP alluded, he should be able to get off this hand
> very easily.
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
>
> ------
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 08:27:21
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
On Dec 4 2006 8:06 AM, alan wrote:
> My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
> caution is still needed.
Alan,
You should perhaps quit poker if you are looking for "lock" hands.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 13:54:20
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
On Dec 4 2006 5:27 PM, FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 4 2006 8:06 AM, alan wrote:
>
> > My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
> > caution is still needed.
>
> Alan,
>
> You should perhaps quit poker if you are looking for "lock" hands.
playing PLO should be good.... no need to quit.
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: www.fellknight.com
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 12:41:41
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
> My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
> caution is still needed.
>
> The other player has already done your work for you-- his big bet has
> eliminated all of the other players except you.
>
> I would call his big raise and see the flop. It's only the two of you.
Alan, just a suggestion here. You've stated that you are a beginning
player. You also stated that you want to participate on RGP to also
obtain advice. You're the only one in this thread that advocates a call
here. Bill and maybe a few others discuss the possibilities of a re-raise
that isn't a jam, but the rest of the replies indicate a jam is in order.
Consder why this is, and then review your thoughts on the hand. Hope this
helps.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 20:28:48
From: alan
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
Hi. Im just expressing an opinion. I'm not saying I'm right. In
fact, I will concede right now that I'm wrong. Keep the good info
coming. Thanks.
Alan
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
> > caution is still needed.
> >
> > The other player has already done your work for you-- his big bet has
> > eliminated all of the other players except you.
> >
> > I would call his big raise and see the flop. It's only the two of you.
>
> Alan, just a suggestion here. You've stated that you are a beginning
> player. You also stated that you want to participate on RGP to also
> obtain advice. You're the only one in this thread that advocates a call
> here. Bill and maybe a few others discuss the possibilities of a re-raise
> that isn't a jam, but the rest of the replies indicate a jam is in order.
>
> Consder why this is, and then review your thoughts on the hand. Hope this
> helps.
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
>
> --------
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 16:52:09
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
On Dec 4, 4:14 pm, "Bill Ricardi" <billrica...@googlemail.com > wrote:
> Palooka wrote:
> > By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
> > but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
> > read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
> > hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
> > much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
>That's one of the reasons I went for the re-raise and go. I'm thinking
> he meant that they HAVE been at the table a while, and the OP has
> folded everything. When a (possible) rock pushes all in, you fold. When
> they min re-raise, there are questions, and you put your opponent to
> the test.
In the OP, he stated he knew his opponent to be an aggressive player
who should be profitable in the game (presumably from prior
observation), while his opponent hadn't seen him play a hand in this
particular session (he didn't state how long the opponent had been at
the table, but did say that his opp. joined the game somewhat after
him). I don't know if he thinks his opponent has him pegged as a rock
or not, or if pushing will put the blinking "I have aces" sign on his
forehead. Personally, I think a minimum or thereabouts reraise that
pot commits the raiser screams AA looking for action 100% of the time.
A push as the third raise could be anything from AJs or 99 on up with
the way most people play at these limits. (I should know, I play low
limits both live and online). I agree the OP has no way to be 100% on
his read, especially if his opponent is a tough aggressive player who
might reraise with anything if he senses weakness on the raiser's part.
My only point was that he should push in order to get a call from a
big pair, because he had a much better chance of going broke on the
flop than his opponent if his read was incorrect.
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Date: 04 Dec 2006 16:14:27
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
Palooka wrote:
> By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
> but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
> read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
> hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
> much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
That's one of the reasons I went for the re-raise and go. I'm thinking
he meant that they HAVE been at the table a while, and the OP has
folded everything. When a (possible) rock pushes all in, you fold. When
they min re-raise, there are questions, and you put your opponent to
the test.
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| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 16:10:55
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> The thing I don't like about this...let's say you're wrong about the AA/KK
> read and he has say AK or QQ, or even JJ. With $350 left, putting another
> raise in that isn't a jam is a huge sign of strength, and if he is a
> decent player as the OP alluded, he should be able to get off this hand
> very easily.
Minimum raise can be seen as a sign of strength or a sign of feigned
strength with minimum involvement. You need to put on a good acting job
either way, I think. :) Gotta put on the right false tell, appropriate
for whichever path you take.
Honestly, it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. I think both plays
are perfectly valid, it just depends on the relative table images. I
like to take the non-obvious route more often than not, and it's not
going to be everyone's cup of tea.
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| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 13:20:43
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
alan wrote:
> My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
> caution is still needed.
The degree of caution required is whatever degree of caution you need
to make sure you don't lose your customers; you don't want him, or
them, to fold.
>
> The other player has already done your work for you-- his big bet has
> eliminated all of the other players except you.
>
> I would call his big raise and see the flop. It's only the two of you.
>
> When playing AA you want to eliminate as many other players as you can
> without eliminating ALL of the possible action at the table.
That is short-sighted and mathematically unsound.
If you play AA headsup 100 times, your investment all-in will be 100 *
let's say 1000 or one hundred grand. You will win around eighty percent
of these pots for a nice profit. Eighy percent of 200,000 means you win
sixty thousand dollars. Not bad work if you can get it.
If you wind up with NINE opponents one hundred times, you will still be
investing the same hundred grand. You will "only" win a little over
thirty, call it thiry, percent of the time. The pots will be 10,000
EACH or one million total. Your will take 300,000 out of those pots,
making more than twice as much as you would against one opponent.
Each extra person who comes all-in into the pot increases your longterm
average profit.Actually, it peaks between the eighth and ninth opponent
but nine is still better than seven.
In a tournament, of course, you have an entirely different equation.
Doubling or tripling up is going to help your chances a great deal and
you do want to reduce the risk of going bust.
It is unrealistic to think that you will get many all-in callers but
the object with Aces is to get all-in and not lose your customers.
The argument here is how big a raise you can make without losing your
opponent, not about whether you want to get your chips in or not.
I don't see enough "room" between the next logical raise and all-in for
it to matter much but I would push and hope he sees it as desperation.
If we had stacks twice as big, I would make a nice-sized raise and hope
he pushed.
Will in New Haven
--
> AT a $2/$5 NL game Ive never bet more than $100 pre flop with AA and
> that usually eliminates all but one player. when I am in early
> position with AA I sometimes have to bet just $50 pre flop and hope I
> dont get too many callers -- but at least one.
>
> Once I was first to act pre flop at a very tight table, and all I bet
> was $25 pre flop because I was afraid all I would do is scare away
> everybody and just collect the blinds if I bet more. As it turned out,
> all I did was get the blinds-- not one caller.
>
>
> XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > > A lot of people are saying jam, but I disagree. I don't think he's pot
> > > committed enough yet. I say you double him plus about 10 percent, then
> > > if he calls, jam no matter what flops.
> > >
> > > You need to commit him to the pot, and if you're willing to jam anyway,
> > > you need to risk the flop in order to suck him all in. You think you're
> > > 80 / 20? Then you need to play as in if you're 80 / 20.
> > >
> > > Others play differently, and that's they're thing. I'd rather bait the
> > > hook, firm it up, then land him.
> >
> > The thing I don't like about this...let's say you're wrong about the AA/KK
> > read and he has say AK or QQ, or even JJ. With $350 left, putting another
> > raise in that isn't a jam is a huge sign of strength, and if he is a
> > decent player as the OP alluded, he should be able to get off this hand
> > very easily.
> >
> > Morphy
> > http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
> >
> > ------
> > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 23:26:18
From: Palooka
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
"Will in New Haven" <bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote in message
news:1165267243.160499.248920@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> alan wrote:
>> My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
>> caution is still needed.
>
> The degree of caution required is whatever degree of caution you need
> to make sure you don't lose your customers; you don't want him, or
> them, to fold.
>
>>
>> The other player has already done your work for you-- his big bet has
>> eliminated all of the other players except you.
>>
>> I would call his big raise and see the flop. It's only the two of you.
>>
>> When playing AA you want to eliminate as many other players as you can
>> without eliminating ALL of the possible action at the table.
>
> That is short-sighted and mathematically unsound.
>
> If you play AA headsup 100 times, your investment all-in will be 100 *
> let's say 1000 or one hundred grand. You will win around eighty percent
> of these pots for a nice profit. Eighy percent of 200,000 means you win
> sixty thousand dollars. Not bad work if you can get it.
>
> If you wind up with NINE opponents one hundred times, you will still be
> investing the same hundred grand. You will "only" win a little over
> thirty, call it thiry, percent of the time. The pots will be 10,000
> EACH or one million total. Your will take 300,000 out of those pots,
> making more than twice as much as you would against one opponent.
>
> Each extra person who comes all-in into the pot increases your longterm
> average profit.Actually, it peaks between the eighth and ninth opponent
> but nine is still better than seven.
>
> In a tournament, of course, you have an entirely different equation.
> Doubling or tripling up is going to help your chances a great deal and
> you do want to reduce the risk of going bust.
>
> It is unrealistic to think that you will get many all-in callers but
> the object with Aces is to get all-in and not lose your customers.
>
> The argument here is how big a raise you can make without losing your
> opponent, not about whether you want to get your chips in or not.
>
> I don't see enough "room" between the next logical raise and all-in for
> it to matter much but I would push and hope he sees it as desperation.
> If we had stacks twice as big, I would make a nice-sized raise and hope
> he pushed.
>
FWIW, I completely agree with Alan. Just call.
If two more aces come on the flop, then (provided of course that there is no
straight flush possibility) you can advance with relative safety. Otherwise,
you can check/fold without risking your entire stack.
Palooka
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
On Dec 4 2006 11:26 PM, Palooka wrote:
> "Will in New Haven" wrote in message
> news:1165267243.160499.248920@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > alan wrote:
> >> My feeling is that AA is not a lock on the win, so some degree of
> >> caution is still needed.
> >
> > The degree of caution required is whatever degree of caution you need
> > to make sure you don't lose your customers; you don't want him, or
> > them, to fold.
> >
> >>
> >> The other player has already done your work for you-- his big bet has
> >> eliminated all of the other players except you.
> >>
> >> I would call his big raise and see the flop. It's only the two of you.
> >>
> >> When playing AA you want to eliminate as many other players as you can
> >> without eliminating ALL of the possible action at the table.
> >
> > That is short-sighted and mathematically unsound.
> >
> > If you play AA headsup 100 times, your investment all-in will be 100 *
> > let's say 1000 or one hundred grand. You will win around eighty percent
> > of these pots for a nice profit. Eighy percent of 200,000 means you win
> > sixty thousand dollars. Not bad work if you can get it.
> >
> > If you wind up with NINE opponents one hundred times, you will still be
> > investing the same hundred grand. You will "only" win a little over
> > thirty, call it thiry, percent of the time. The pots will be 10,000
> > EACH or one million total. Your will take 300,000 out of those pots,
> > making more than twice as much as you would against one opponent.
> >
> > Each extra person who comes all-in into the pot increases your longterm
> > average profit.Actually, it peaks between the eighth and ninth opponent
> > but nine is still better than seven.
> >
> > In a tournament, of course, you have an entirely different equation.
> > Doubling or tripling up is going to help your chances a great deal and
> > you do want to reduce the risk of going bust.
> >
> > It is unrealistic to think that you will get many all-in callers but
> > the object with Aces is to get all-in and not lose your customers.
> >
> > The argument here is how big a raise you can make without losing your
> > opponent, not about whether you want to get your chips in or not.
> >
> > I don't see enough "room" between the next logical raise and all-in for
> > it to matter much but I would push and hope he sees it as desperation.
> > If we had stacks twice as big, I would make a nice-sized raise and hope
> > he pushed.
> >
> FWIW, I completely agree with Alan. Just call.
>
> If two more aces come on the flop, then (provided of course that there is no
> straight flush possibility) you can advance with relative safety. Otherwise,
> you can check/fold without risking your entire stack.
>
> Palooka
now now, you know about what they say sarcasm being the lowest form of wit....
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 12:25:34
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
Kincaid wrote:
> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't post
> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>
> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or inexperienced.
> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either another
> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them both as
> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
> game.
>
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
>
Jam, jam, jam some more. Your read is quite irrelevant at this point.
Let's look at the pot size. $7 in blinds, $10 from the limpers, $30
from your raise, and $110 from the reraiser makes it a $157 pot. If
you call $80 and raise $237, that makes your pot-sized reraise $317.
You're only overbetting the pot by about 10% here. Your opponent will
call with AA and KK, will probably call with QQ, will seriously
consider a call with JJ (but will fold it if he's good), and may even
get crazy and call with AK if he thinks you're going nuts (not likely).
He will fold all his steal hands. The only options you have are
calling to trap and pushing. If you just call, the pot is $237 and
you'll have ~$270 left. How are you going to get away from the hand if
you get outflopped? OTOH, with position, your opponent can easily fold
if he misses the flop with a steal type hand, and might even be able to
get away from an overpair if you push on the flop (which you'll all but
have to do). If you are "100% sure" that he has the other two aces or
KK, it's even more of a no-brainer jam preflop because of the high
probability of KK and the certainty that he will call your jam.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 21:17:32
From: Palooka
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
"phlash74" <phlash74@msn.com > wrote in message
news:1165263934.573155.212320@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Kincaid wrote:
>> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I
>> won't post
>> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>>
>> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
>> inexperienced.
>> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
>> another
>> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep.
>> Along
>> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
>> both as
>> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in
>> this
>> game.
>>
>> The hand:
>> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The
>> player to
>> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>>
>> You have ~$350 more.
>> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
>> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>>
>> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>>
>>
>
>
> Jam, jam, jam some more. Your read is quite irrelevant at this point.
> Let's look at the pot size. $7 in blinds, $10 from the limpers, $30
> from your raise, and $110 from the reraiser makes it a $157 pot. If
> you call $80 and raise $237, that makes your pot-sized reraise $317.
> You're only overbetting the pot by about 10% here. Your opponent will
> call with AA and KK, will probably call with QQ, will seriously
> consider a call with JJ (but will fold it if he's good), and may even
> get crazy and call with AK if he thinks you're going nuts (not likely).
> He will fold all his steal hands. The only options you have are
> calling to trap and pushing. If you just call, the pot is $237 and
> you'll have ~$270 left. How are you going to get away from the hand if
> you get outflopped? OTOH, with position, your opponent can easily fold
> if he misses the flop with a steal type hand, and might even be able to
> get away from an overpair if you push on the flop (which you'll all but
> have to do). If you are "100% sure" that he has the other two aces or
> KK, it's even more of a no-brainer jam preflop because of the high
> probability of KK and the certainty that he will call your jam.
>
Completely agree.
By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
Palooka
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Dec
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
You're not missing anything, but you should always be working to get a read on
your opponent. I'm not saying that I knew that the had KK, but I felt strongly
that he did. I even said "you have KK?" when he called me. (easy to do since
he auto-called, but still)
I feel 100% correct that a jam is the best play here not just because the pot
size suggests it, nor that our stacks aren't deep enough to justify a reraise.
I think it's the best play here because it makes it impossible for him to read
my hand precisely. The jam represents anything from QQ to AK, probably even
JJ. A reraise is far more likely to represent a stronger hand.
Making a read is never irrelevant due to the strength of the hand and action
called for.
On Dec 4 2006 1:17 PM, Palooka wrote:
> "phlash74" wrote in message
> news:1165263934.573155.212320@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Kincaid wrote:
> >> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I
> >> won't post
> >> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
> >>
> >> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
> >> inexperienced.
> >> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
> >> another
> >> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep.
> >> Along
> >> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
> >> both as
> >> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in
> >> this
> >> game.
> >>
> >> The hand:
> >> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The
> >> player to
> >> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
> >>
> >> You have ~$350 more.
> >> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> >> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
> >>
> >> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Jam, jam, jam some more. Your read is quite irrelevant at this point.
> > Let's look at the pot size. $7 in blinds, $10 from the limpers, $30
> > from your raise, and $110 from the reraiser makes it a $157 pot. If
> > you call $80 and raise $237, that makes your pot-sized reraise $317.
> > You're only overbetting the pot by about 10% here. Your opponent will
> > call with AA and KK, will probably call with QQ, will seriously
> > consider a call with JJ (but will fold it if he's good), and may even
> > get crazy and call with AK if he thinks you're going nuts (not likely).
> > He will fold all his steal hands. The only options you have are
> > calling to trap and pushing. If you just call, the pot is $237 and
> > you'll have ~$270 left. How are you going to get away from the hand if
> > you get outflopped? OTOH, with position, your opponent can easily fold
> > if he misses the flop with a steal type hand, and might even be able to
> > get away from an overpair if you push on the flop (which you'll all but
> > have to do). If you are "100% sure" that he has the other two aces or
> > KK, it's even more of a no-brainer jam preflop because of the high
> > probability of KK and the certainty that he will call your jam.
> >
>
> Completely agree.
>
> By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
> but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
> read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
> hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
> much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
>
> Palooka
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 22:27:56
From: alan
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
I'm reading Harrington on Hold Em vol Three and came to "problem 16" on
page 123 which is titled: Chris Ferguson--Playing Aces.
The problem is similar to what the original poster wrote, but in this
case Ferguson was the first to raise and was met with a caller. There
was no all-in action by either player.
Among Harrington's comments: "No credit for the beginner's play of
pushing all-in. You want to make some money with your hand, not just
chase everyone away."
Harrington also cautions about the dangers post flop when, in this
particular hand, the flop comes KJ6 making a high pair prior to the
flop a possible set now.
If any of you have read this, I would appreciate your comments.
thanks.
Kincaid wrote:
> You're not missing anything, but you should always be working to get a read on
> your opponent. I'm not saying that I knew that the had KK, but I felt strongly
> that he did. I even said "you have KK?" when he called me. (easy to do since
> he auto-called, but still)
>
> I feel 100% correct that a jam is the best play here not just because the pot
> size suggests it, nor that our stacks aren't deep enough to justify a reraise.
> I think it's the best play here because it makes it impossible for him to read
> my hand precisely. The jam represents anything from QQ to AK, probably even
> JJ. A reraise is far more likely to represent a stronger hand.
>
> Making a read is never irrelevant due to the strength of the hand and action
> called for.
>
>
> On Dec 4 2006 1:17 PM, Palooka wrote:
>
> > "phlash74" wrote in message
> > news:1165263934.573155.212320@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Kincaid wrote:
> > >> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I
> > >> won't post
> > >> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
> > >>
> > >> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
> > >> inexperienced.
> > >> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
> > >> another
> > >> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep.
> > >> Along
> > >> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
> > >> both as
> > >> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in
> > >> this
> > >> game.
> > >>
> > >> The hand:
> > >> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The
> > >> player to
> > >> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
> > >>
> > >> You have ~$350 more.
> > >> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> > >> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
> > >>
> > >> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Jam, jam, jam some more. Your read is quite irrelevant at this point.
> > > Let's look at the pot size. $7 in blinds, $10 from the limpers, $30
> > > from your raise, and $110 from the reraiser makes it a $157 pot. If
> > > you call $80 and raise $237, that makes your pot-sized reraise $317.
> > > You're only overbetting the pot by about 10% here. Your opponent will
> > > call with AA and KK, will probably call with QQ, will seriously
> > > consider a call with JJ (but will fold it if he's good), and may even
> > > get crazy and call with AK if he thinks you're going nuts (not likely).
> > > He will fold all his steal hands. The only options you have are
> > > calling to trap and pushing. If you just call, the pot is $237 and
> > > you'll have ~$270 left. How are you going to get away from the hand if
> > > you get outflopped? OTOH, with position, your opponent can easily fold
> > > if he misses the flop with a steal type hand, and might even be able to
> > > get away from an overpair if you push on the flop (which you'll all but
> > > have to do). If you are "100% sure" that he has the other two aces or
> > > KK, it's even more of a no-brainer jam preflop because of the high
> > > probability of KK and the certainty that he will call your jam.
> > >
> >
> > Completely agree.
> >
> > By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
> > but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
> > read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
> > hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
> > much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
> >
> > Palooka
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 09:24:47
From: alan
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
thanks.
Will in New Haven wrote:
> alan wrote:
> > I'm reading Harrington on Hold Em vol Three and came to "problem 16" on
> > page 123 which is titled: Chris Ferguson--Playing Aces.
> >
> > The problem is similar to what the original poster wrote, but in this
> > case Ferguson was the first to raise and was met with a caller. There
> > was no all-in action by either player.
> >
> > Among Harrington's comments: "No credit for the beginner's play of
> > pushing all-in. You want to make some money with your hand, not just
> > chase everyone away."
> >
> > Harrington also cautions about the dangers post flop when, in this
> > particular hand, the flop comes KJ6 making a high pair prior to the
> > flop a possible set now.
> >
> > If any of you have read this, I would appreciate your comments.
> >
> > thanks.
>
> I have read it. The comment about not pushing all-in refers to an
> unopened pot. You certainly DON'T want to push and get no callers with
> AA. The only times it would be reasonable to open-raise all-in with
> Aces would be:
>
> 1: If the size of a logical opening raise would put you nearly all-in
> or pot-commit you. In that case, you will be so short-stacked and/or
> the blinds and antes will be so large that you will likely get some
> action.
>
> 2: If several people who are going to act after you seem to think that
> you are a dork and one or more of them will call because it is possible
> they think you are playing "Kill Phil.'
>
> However, he never said you didn't want to GET all-in preflop with Aces
> against one or two opponents. Since he is referring to tournament NLHE,
> he wouldn't want more opponents than that generally. If you can make a
> re-raise that is proportional to the amount in the pot and creates an
> all-in situation, you do it and Harrington never said that you don't.
>
> I found his post-flop caution to be somewhat overstated for normal
> tournament situations. If you make a normal-sized bet now, you are
> going to have more of your stack in there than you would like to fold
> to a raise. If you check, you are giving someone with KQ a free card.
> Except now that player will bet and you have to raise or give him a
> card for a price he was willing to pay. Either way, you are in trouble
> against a set.
>
> The pre-flop action might give you a clue about possible sets here. KKK
> is possible but not if the guy just called your raise. You would
> probably have too many chips in the pot against KK to be worried about
> it any more. JJ has some of the same problems but your opponent may
> have worked out, correctly in this case, that he should play it like a
> small pair, set or be gone. Sixes are a real possibility if your
> opponent simply called a raise.
>
> In any case, I thought his analysis was odd. Given a flat call by your
> opponent, 985 is a much more dangerous flop. People don't flat-call
> with Kings or often flat-call with Jacks. People often simply call and
> wait for a set with smaller pairs.
>
> ANY flop can conceal a set and you can't just let people draw to
> straights and/or flushes because you are afraid of a set. In a
> shallow-stack situation, more common in tournaments, you will ofen be
> pot-committed before you can really judge that you are facing a set. In
> a deep-stack situation, more common in cash games, you may be able to
> judge after it goes bet/raise etc that you are beat and get out alive.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
>
> >
> >
> > Kincaid wrote:
> > > You're not missing anything, but you should always be working to get a read on
> > > your opponent. I'm not saying that I knew that the had KK, but I felt strongly
> > > that he did. I even said "you have KK?" when he called me. (easy to do since
> > > he auto-called, but still)
> > >
> > > I feel 100% correct that a jam is the best play here not just because the pot
> > > size suggests it, nor that our stacks aren't deep enough to justify a reraise.
> > > I think it's the best play here because it makes it impossible for him to read
> > > my hand precisely. The jam represents anything from QQ to AK, probably even
> > > JJ. A reraise is far more likely to represent a stronger hand.
> > >
> > > Making a read is never irrelevant due to the strength of the hand and action
> > > called for.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 4 2006 1:17 PM, Palooka wrote:
> > >
> > > > "phlash74" wrote in message
> > > > news:1165263934.573155.212320@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > Kincaid wrote:
> > > > >> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I
> > > > >> won't post
> > > > >> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
> > > > >> inexperienced.
> > > > >> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
> > > > >> another
> > > > >> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep.
> > > > >> Along
> > > > >> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
> > > > >> both as
> > > > >> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in
> > > > >> this
> > > > >> game.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The hand:
> > > > >> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The
> > > > >> player to
> > > > >> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You have ~$350 more.
> > > > >> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> > > > >> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jam, jam, jam some more. Your read is quite irrelevant at this point.
> > > > > Let's look at the pot size. $7 in blinds, $10 from the limpers, $30
> > > > > from your raise, and $110 from the reraiser makes it a $157 pot. If
> > > > > you call $80 and raise $237, that makes your pot-sized reraise $317.
> > > > > You're only overbetting the pot by about 10% here. Your opponent will
> > > > > call with AA and KK, will probably call with QQ, will seriously
> > > > > consider a call with JJ (but will fold it if he's good), and may even
> > > > > get crazy and call with AK if he thinks you're going nuts (not likely).
> > > > > He will fold all his steal hands. The only options you have are
> > > > > calling to trap and pushing. If you just call, the pot is $237 and
> > > > > you'll have ~$270 left. How are you going to get away from the hand if
> > > > > you get outflopped? OTOH, with position, your opponent can easily fold
> > > > > if he misses the flop with a steal type hand, and might even be able to
> > > > > get away from an overpair if you push on the flop (which you'll all but
> > > > > have to do). If you are "100% sure" that he has the other two aces or
> > > > > KK, it's even more of a no-brainer jam preflop because of the high
> > > > > probability of KK and the certainty that he will call your jam.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Completely agree.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
> > > > but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
> > > > read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
> > > > hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
> > > > much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
> > > >
> > > > Palooka
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________________________
> > > * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 06:25:15
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
alan wrote:
> I'm reading Harrington on Hold Em vol Three and came to "problem 16" on
> page 123 which is titled: Chris Ferguson--Playing Aces.
>
> The problem is similar to what the original poster wrote, but in this
> case Ferguson was the first to raise and was met with a caller. There
> was no all-in action by either player.
>
> Among Harrington's comments: "No credit for the beginner's play of
> pushing all-in. You want to make some money with your hand, not just
> chase everyone away."
>
> Harrington also cautions about the dangers post flop when, in this
> particular hand, the flop comes KJ6 making a high pair prior to the
> flop a possible set now.
>
> If any of you have read this, I would appreciate your comments.
>
> thanks.
I have read it. The comment about not pushing all-in refers to an
unopened pot. You certainly DON'T want to push and get no callers with
AA. The only times it would be reasonable to open-raise all-in with
Aces would be:
1: If the size of a logical opening raise would put you nearly all-in
or pot-commit you. In that case, you will be so short-stacked and/or
the blinds and antes will be so large that you will likely get some
action.
2: If several people who are going to act after you seem to think that
you are a dork and one or more of them will call because it is possible
they think you are playing "Kill Phil.'
However, he never said you didn't want to GET all-in preflop with Aces
against one or two opponents. Since he is referring to tournament NLHE,
he wouldn't want more opponents than that generally. If you can make a
re-raise that is proportional to the amount in the pot and creates an
all-in situation, you do it and Harrington never said that you don't.
I found his post-flop caution to be somewhat overstated for normal
tournament situations. If you make a normal-sized bet now, you are
going to have more of your stack in there than you would like to fold
to a raise. If you check, you are giving someone with KQ a free card.
Except now that player will bet and you have to raise or give him a
card for a price he was willing to pay. Either way, you are in trouble
against a set.
The pre-flop action might give you a clue about possible sets here. KKK
is possible but not if the guy just called your raise. You would
probably have too many chips in the pot against KK to be worried about
it any more. JJ has some of the same problems but your opponent may
have worked out, correctly in this case, that he should play it like a
small pair, set or be gone. Sixes are a real possibility if your
opponent simply called a raise.
In any case, I thought his analysis was odd. Given a flat call by your
opponent, 985 is a much more dangerous flop. People don't flat-call
with Kings or often flat-call with Jacks. People often simply call and
wait for a set with smaller pairs.
ANY flop can conceal a set and you can't just let people draw to
straights and/or flushes because you are afraid of a set. In a
shallow-stack situation, more common in tournaments, you will ofen be
pot-committed before you can really judge that you are facing a set. In
a deep-stack situation, more common in cash games, you may be able to
judge after it goes bet/raise etc that you are beat and get out alive.
Will in New Haven
--
>
>
> Kincaid wrote:
> > You're not missing anything, but you should always be working to get a read on
> > your opponent. I'm not saying that I knew that the had KK, but I felt strongly
> > that he did. I even said "you have KK?" when he called me. (easy to do since
> > he auto-called, but still)
> >
> > I feel 100% correct that a jam is the best play here not just because the pot
> > size suggests it, nor that our stacks aren't deep enough to justify a reraise.
> > I think it's the best play here because it makes it impossible for him to read
> > my hand precisely. The jam represents anything from QQ to AK, probably even
> > JJ. A reraise is far more likely to represent a stronger hand.
> >
> > Making a read is never irrelevant due to the strength of the hand and action
> > called for.
> >
> >
> > On Dec 4 2006 1:17 PM, Palooka wrote:
> >
> > > "phlash74" wrote in message
> > > news:1165263934.573155.212320@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > Kincaid wrote:
> > > >> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I
> > > >> won't post
> > > >> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
> > > >>
> > > >> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
> > > >> inexperienced.
> > > >> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
> > > >> another
> > > >> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep.
> > > >> Along
> > > >> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
> > > >> both as
> > > >> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in
> > > >> this
> > > >> game.
> > > >>
> > > >> The hand:
> > > >> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The
> > > >> player to
> > > >> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
> > > >>
> > > >> You have ~$350 more.
> > > >> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> > > >> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
> > > >>
> > > >> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jam, jam, jam some more. Your read is quite irrelevant at this point.
> > > > Let's look at the pot size. $7 in blinds, $10 from the limpers, $30
> > > > from your raise, and $110 from the reraiser makes it a $157 pot. If
> > > > you call $80 and raise $237, that makes your pot-sized reraise $317.
> > > > You're only overbetting the pot by about 10% here. Your opponent will
> > > > call with AA and KK, will probably call with QQ, will seriously
> > > > consider a call with JJ (but will fold it if he's good), and may even
> > > > get crazy and call with AK if he thinks you're going nuts (not likely).
> > > > He will fold all his steal hands. The only options you have are
> > > > calling to trap and pushing. If you just call, the pot is $237 and
> > > > you'll have ~$270 left. How are you going to get away from the hand if
> > > > you get outflopped? OTOH, with position, your opponent can easily fold
> > > > if he misses the flop with a steal type hand, and might even be able to
> > > > get away from an overpair if you push on the flop (which you'll all but
> > > > have to do). If you are "100% sure" that he has the other two aces or
> > > > KK, it's even more of a no-brainer jam preflop because of the high
> > > > probability of KK and the certainty that he will call your jam.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Completely agree.
> > >
> > > By the way, you have touched on the "read". I agree that it is irrelevant,
> > > but the one thing which has been puzzling me is how OP can be certain of his
> > > read on the opponent, yet states that the opponent hasn't seen *him* play a
> > > hand yet. If opponent hasn't seen much of OP, then presumably OP hasn't seen
> > > much of opponent either. Or am I missing something?
> > >
> > > Palooka
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 13:33:43
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
Old Wolf wrote:
> Will in New Haven wrote:
> > I found his post-flop caution to be somewhat overstated for normal
> > tournament situations. If you make a normal-sized bet now, you are
> > going to have more of your stack in there than you would like to fold
> > to a raise. If you check, you are giving someone with KQ a free card.
> > Except now that player will bet and you have to raise or give him a
> > card for a price he was willing to pay. Either way, you are in trouble
> > against a set.
>
> Consider reading 'Championship PL & NL Holdem' by Cloutier
> & McEvoy. He spends most of the time talking about how to
> not overplay AA and AK, especially, how to recognize when
> you are ahead on the flop and when you're beaten. The first
> time I read the book I thought he was advising weak tight play,
> but now that I have a little more understanding of the game,
> I can appreciate the advice more.
I will have to take a look at that book again. Thank you for mentioning
it. I remember Cloutier, but I don't remember where he wrote it,
talking about slowing down and not losing his whole stack, but not
folding, with AA in a situation where both players involved in the hand
had huge multiples of the BB. He went on to finish in the money.
The deeper the stacks the greater the chance that you can realize that
your Aces have been busted without being pot-commited. In deep-stacked
cash games, it is often possible to avoid going broke with unimproved
Aces.
Will in New Haven
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 13:24:05
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
Will in New Haven wrote:
> I found his post-flop caution to be somewhat overstated for normal
> tournament situations. If you make a normal-sized bet now, you are
> going to have more of your stack in there than you would like to fold
> to a raise. If you check, you are giving someone with KQ a free card.
> Except now that player will bet and you have to raise or give him a
> card for a price he was willing to pay. Either way, you are in trouble
> against a set.
Consider reading 'Championship PL & NL Holdem' by Cloutier
& McEvoy. He spends most of the time talking about how to
not overplay AA and AK, especially, how to recognize when
you are ahead on the flop and when you're beaten. The first
time I read the book I thought he was advising weak tight play,
but now that I have a little more understanding of the game,
I can appreciate the advice more.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 13:18:27
From: alan
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
thanks again for this.
everyone brings up the danger that your opponent will flop a set,
killing your AA.
so, Ive got to ask: what is the percentage of plays that will result in
a flopped set for any given pair of cards that a player might hold?
many thanks.
phlash74 wrote:
> alan wrote:
> > I'm reading Harrington on Hold Em vol Three and came to "problem 16" on
> > page 123 which is titled: Chris Ferguson--Playing Aces.
> >
> > The problem is similar to what the original poster wrote, but in this
> > case Ferguson was the first to raise and was met with a caller. There
> > was no all-in action by either player.
> >
> > Among Harrington's comments: "No credit for the beginner's play of
> > pushing all-in. You want to make some money with your hand, not just
> > chase everyone away."
> >
> > Harrington also cautions about the dangers post flop when, in this
> > particular hand, the flop comes KJ6 making a high pair prior to the
> > flop a possible set now.
> >
> > If any of you have read this, I would appreciate your comments.
> >
> > thanks.
>
>
> I haven't read it, but there's one key difference (I gather from your
> description that Jesus had the aces). He raised just as the OP did,
> but his opponent called rather than reraise. Had his opponent
> reraised, and Ferguson had just about enough for a pot-sized reraise
> left in his stack, I'm pretty sure he would push expecting to get a
> call from KK or QQ, while protecting his AA against a drawing hand that
> he probably wouldn't get much action from on the flop unless he was
> beat. There's always a set possible on every flop, which is all the
> more reason to get all the chips in preflop with AA if possible. Yes
> you want action on your aces, but the best time to trap with them is in
> position against an aggressive player who will overplay weaker hands.
> No one is saying you just push all-in with aces as soon as you see
> them, but if you've raised and gotten reraised and the stacks are
> fairly shallow (as was the case in the OP and in most tournament
> situations), you're usually better off pushing there.
>
> Michael
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 12:11:41
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
alan wrote:
> I'm reading Harrington on Hold Em vol Three and came to "problem 16" on
> page 123 which is titled: Chris Ferguson--Playing Aces.
>
> The problem is similar to what the original poster wrote, but in this
> case Ferguson was the first to raise and was met with a caller. There
> was no all-in action by either player.
>
> Among Harrington's comments: "No credit for the beginner's play of
> pushing all-in. You want to make some money with your hand, not just
> chase everyone away."
>
> Harrington also cautions about the dangers post flop when, in this
> particular hand, the flop comes KJ6 making a high pair prior to the
> flop a possible set now.
>
> If any of you have read this, I would appreciate your comments.
>
> thanks.
I haven't read it, but there's one key difference (I gather from your
description that Jesus had the aces). He raised just as the OP did,
but his opponent called rather than reraise. Had his opponent
reraised, and Ferguson had just about enough for a pot-sized reraise
left in his stack, I'm pretty sure he would push expecting to get a
call from KK or QQ, while protecting his AA against a drawing hand that
he probably wouldn't get much action from on the flop unless he was
beat. There's always a set possible on every flop, which is all the
more reason to get all the chips in preflop with AA if possible. Yes
you want action on your aces, but the best time to trap with them is in
position against an aggressive player who will overplay weaker hands.
No one is saying you just push all-in with aces as soon as you see
them, but if you've raised and gotten reraised and the stacks are
fairly shallow (as was the case in the OP and in most tournament
situations), you're usually better off pushing there.
Michael
|
| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 11:28:15
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
On Dec 3 2006 6:22 PM, Kincaid wrote:
> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't
post
> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>
> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or
inexperienced.
> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either
another
> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them
both as
> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
> game.
>
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player
to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
What if you think a shove would scare him so u just call and the flop
comes K23? What about Q7T? I try and keep things as simple as possible.
Most players can't fold KK preflop in a cash game. The play is shove.
____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 06:35:29
From: Eddie
Subject: Re: Simple question about playing (NOT folding!) AA
|
Definitely All-In.
Kincaid wrote:
> This one is mighty basic, but I want to hear a variety of answers. I won't post
> results, but I'd like to hear what many think is the best line.
>
> $2-5 NL game. Players are generally passive, unimaginative, or inexperienced.
> Many pots are being over bet. Many players are open raising for either another
> $5 or making it $50 to go. Nobody at this table is particularly deep. Along
> come two new players who sit to your immediate left. You recognize them both as
> aggressive players who play fairly well and rate to make some money in this
> game.
>
> The hand:
> Two players limp to you in early MP. You raise to $30 with AA. The player to
> your left makes it $110 shutting everybody else. Back to you.
>
> You have ~$350 more.
> He has $390 more and hasn't seen you play a hand yet.
> Your read is 100% certain that he has KK or AA.
>
> So... what do you do now? Why is that the best play?
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
|
|
