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Date: 14 Dec 2006 22:04:21
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Short stack move from SB
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Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
Now, I could also check here, and if someone jams, I
have to fold unless there are two callers for my odds,
or call with bad odds, depending. With only 1300
chips left, I have to make a move soon.
Alternately, I could fold the small blind. Is there any
other way to play a hand like this, or is it reasonable to
make a bet that gives you odds to call someone coming
over the top? (I could just jam, but it doesn't get rid
of an ace, or give someone a chance to make some
goofy mistake like just call.)
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Date: 15 Dec
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Dec 14 2006 10:04 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
>
> I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
>
> Now, I could also check here, and if someone jams, I
> have to fold unless there are two callers for my odds,
> or call with bad odds, depending. With only 1300
> chips left, I have to make a move soon.
>
> Alternately, I could fold the small blind. Is there any
> other way to play a hand like this, or is it reasonable to
> make a bet that gives you odds to call someone coming
> over the top? (I could just jam, but it doesn't get rid
> of an ace, or give someone a chance to make some
> goofy mistake like just call.)
I think in this situation I vary between checking looking for the free card, but
jamming if bet into and leading out about 400, planning to call a jam. Depends
on how aggressive I think my opponents are.
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Date: 15 Dec
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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I don't know much about this tourney, but if there are no antes yet, then i'd
say you have time to wait until you pick something up that you can open the pot
with and steal the blinds. So, you've got 5 rounds left if there are no
antes... about 3 rounds with a $25 ante.
If there are antes, I'd push preflop agaist a random hand yet to act and a
limper who has shown no strength. You could net 625 this way. If you are
called by one player you'll likely have two live cards. Not a favourite in the
hand, but you're not a favourite in the tourney at this point.
The reason I say this... a lot of players take the advice about not taking shots
at shortstacks to heart. So when you make a play like this out of position with
your shortstack, I think many players will lay down a hand like QJ KT and the
like. You're also giving the blind and the limper a terrible price.
If there are no antes, you can afford to wait a few more hands and open in
better position with a strong(er) hand. If this is the situation, I favour a
fold.
Since you called, I would push on the flop in this situation. I dunno... I'm
short stacked, this is the kind of flop I wanted to see, and I might be the only
one representing an A.
Just my insight... I'm sure somebody will tell you how stupid I am.
On Dec 14 2006 7:04 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
>
> I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
>
> Now, I could also check here, and if someone jams, I
> have to fold unless there are two callers for my odds,
> or call with bad odds, depending. With only 1300
> chips left, I have to make a move soon.
>
> Alternately, I could fold the small blind. Is there any
> other way to play a hand like this, or is it reasonable to
> make a bet that gives you odds to call someone coming
> over the top? (I could just jam, but it doesn't get rid
> of an ace, or give someone a chance to make some
> goofy mistake like just call.)
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 19:17:51
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
> Alternately, I could fold the small blind.
I do that one.
Getting involved with a bad hand because it's a discount is something
you do with a lot of chips, not survival chips. You need to find a hand
that you can jam with, and this ain't it.
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Date: 16 Dec 17:34:11
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Dec 15 2006 3:04 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
>
> I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
>
> Now, I could also check here, and if someone jams, I
> have to fold unless there are two callers for my odds,
> or call with bad odds, depending. With only 1300
> chips left, I have to make a move soon.
>
> Alternately, I could fold the small blind. Is there any
> other way to play a hand like this, or is it reasonable to
> make a bet that gives you odds to call someone coming
> over the top? (I could just jam, but it doesn't get rid
> of an ace, or give someone a chance to make some
> goofy mistake like just call.)
How about checking, with the intention of jamming a weak bet, and folding to a
strong bet?
A weak ace might lead out with a prob bet here, and might fold if you jam. If
no one bets, you have a free card...:-)
if someone wants to represent that ace strongly...well, good bye pot.
I find this normally works better than leading out here with a short stack, as
you really are betting into the unknown, and become too easily committed if you
bet probably, and run the risk of being pushed off the pot if you lead out
weakly.
As for folding the SB...why? 5 to one odds with a speculative hands isnt too
bad...and unless the BB have a tendency to raise limpers, I would call
everytime.
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 15:36:33
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Sat, 16 Dec 06 17:34:11 GMT, Nick Wool <43079532@recpoker.com > wrote:
>On Dec 15 2006 3:04 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
>> Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
>> with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
>> chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
>> I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
>> chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
>> to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
>> to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
>> hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
>> like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
>> Now, I could also check here, and if someone jams, I
>> have to fold unless there are two callers for my odds,
>> or call with bad odds, depending. With only 1300
>> chips left, I have to make a move soon.
>> Alternately, I could fold the small blind. Is there any
>> other way to play a hand like this, or is it reasonable to
>> make a bet that gives you odds to call someone coming
>> over the top? (I could just jam, but it doesn't get rid
>> of an ace, or give someone a chance to make some
>> goofy mistake like just call.)
>How about checking, with the intention of jamming a weak bet, and folding to a
>strong bet?
I kind of like that. I get to pick up a few chips from a weak bluff,
and have a decent chance of doubling up even if they do have a
weak ace they're playing like a weakling.
>A weak ace might lead out with a prob bet here, and might fold if you jam. If
>no one bets, you have a free card...:-)
>if someone wants to represent that ace strongly...well, good bye pot.
>I find this normally works better than leading out here with a short stack, as
>you really are betting into the unknown, and become too easily committed if you
>bet probably, and run the risk of being pushed off the pot if you lead out
>weakly.
>As for folding the SB...why? 5 to one odds with a speculative hands isnt too
>bad...and unless the BB have a tendency to raise limpers, I would call
>everytime.
I usually try to pay attention to that kind of behavior, and this particular
BB hadn't raised any limpers. Some people do that habitually, and I'd
dump the hand in that situation. With 1400 chips (after paying the SB)
and the blinds at 100/200, 100 chips doesn't seem too much to pay
for what may be my last chance to play a wee bit o' poker before I'm
in "jam the next halfway reasonable hand that's folded to me" mode.
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 22:30:23
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Dec 15 2006 4:04 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
>
> I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
why not open push the flop, since you intend to call a push anyway ?
it's likely some weak aces will fold, and if someone calls they would have
pushed over your bet anyway.... seems like a better approach to me.
>
> Now, I could also check here, and if someone jams, I
> have to fold unless there are two callers for my odds,
> or call with bad odds, depending. With only 1300
> chips left, I have to make a move soon.
>
> Alternately, I could fold the small blind. Is there any
> other way to play a hand like this, or is it reasonable to
> make a bet that gives you odds to call someone coming
> over the top? (I could just jam, but it doesn't get rid
> of an ace, or give someone a chance to make some
> goofy mistake like just call.)
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:51:15
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Dec 16 2006 11:30 PM, xyious wrote:
> On Dec 15 2006 4:04 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> > Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> > with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> > chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
> >
> > I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> > chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> > to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> > to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> > hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> > like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
>
> why not open push the flop, since you intend to call a push anyway ?
> it's likely some weak aces will fold, and if someone calls they would have
> pushed over your bet anyway.... seems like a better approach to me.
Because the push is more easily read as a bet that doesn't really want a
call, whereas the smaller bet is often read as a value bet.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 17 Dec 17:00:00
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Dec 17 2006 8:51 AM, FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 16 2006 11:30 PM, xyious wrote:
>
> > On Dec 15 2006 4:04 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> > > Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> > > with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> > > chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
> > >
> > > I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> > > chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> > > to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> > > to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> > > hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> > > like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
> >
> > why not open push the flop, since you intend to call a push anyway ?
> > it's likely some weak aces will fold, and if someone calls they would have
> > pushed over your bet anyway.... seems like a better approach to me.
>
> Because the push is more easily read as a bet that doesn't really want a
> call, whereas the smaller bet is often read as a value bet.
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
Only to average/good players...A very good or very poor player would see your
weak bet, and push you to kingdom come with trash a lot of the time.
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 14:31:30
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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On Dec 17 2006 10:00 AM, Nick Wool wrote:
> On Dec 17 2006 8:51 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16 2006 11:30 PM, xyious wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 15 2006 4:04 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> > > > Call the half bet from the SB and see the pot three ways
> > > > with 64. Blinds 100/200 so the pot is 600. I have 1300
> > > > chips as we see the flop. The flop is A57.
> > > >
> > > > I bet out half the pot, 300, figuring that there's a decent
> > > > chance nobody has an ace. If anyone does, they're likely
> > > > to jam into me, which I'll then have slightly favorable odds
> > > > to call, a little better than the 2:1 against my odds of
> > > > hitting my straight, enough to cover unlikely eventualities
> > > > like a set. But if nobody has an ace, they'll probably fold.
> > >
> > > why not open push the flop, since you intend to call a push anyway ?
> > > it's likely some weak aces will fold, and if someone calls they would
have
> > > pushed over your bet anyway.... seems like a better approach to me.
> >
> > Because the push is more easily read as a bet that doesn't really want a
> > call, whereas the smaller bet is often read as a value bet.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
>
> Only to average/good players...A very good or very poor player would see your
> weak bet, and push you to kingdom come with trash a lot of the time.
True enough, but you need to know your player. I assumed an average
opponent.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 23:43:02
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Short stack move from SB
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FellKnight wrote:
> > > But against average players, don't you just fold this one to start
> > > with, screw the analysis?
> >
> > Fold what, 88 when folded to on the button?
> >
> > Fell
>
> Oops was thinking of the wrong thread.
Oh thank Christ, I thought I was losing my mind. :)
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