Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

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Date: 09 Dec 2006 10:03:57
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
steal raise, except:

If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.

Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
plays and suck out.

Will in New Haven

--

"That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
players at this table for idiots."

Date: 09 Dec 18:56:21
From: Tanya AKA MissT74
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the BB
doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my cards
suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do, just
fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I DON'T have
a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack push it
in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one that does
that too.

T

On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:

> On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> steal raise, except:
>
> If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
>
> Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> plays and suck out.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
> players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> players at this table for idiots."

_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 15:08:22
From: akqjt98
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted that
you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as long as
you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the suck
out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.

On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:

> I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the BB
> doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my cards
> suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do, just
> fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I DON'T
have
> a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack push
it
> in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one that
does
> that too.
>
> T
>
>
> On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>
> > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > steal raise, except:
> >
> > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> >
> > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > plays and suck out.
> >
> > Will in New Haven
> >
> > --
> >
> > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
> > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > players at this table for idiots."

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Date: 10 Dec 2006 11:27:39
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On Dec 9 2006 6:08 PM, akqjt98 wrote:

> It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted that
> you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as long as
> you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the suck
> out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.
>

When did Tanya say that?

> On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
>
> > I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the BB
> > doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my
cards
> > suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do,
just
> > fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I DON'T
> have
> > a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack push
> it
> > in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one that
> does
> > that too.
> >
> > T
> >
> >
> > On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> >
> > > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> > > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > > steal raise, except:
> > >
> > > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> > > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> > > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> > >
> > > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> > > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > > plays and suck out.
> > >
> > > Will in New Haven
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> > > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
> > > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > > players at this table for idiots."

thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

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Date: 10 Dec 2006 12:24:59
From: akqjt98
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

Well, searching google groups, I found this post. It's #2:
http://masl.to/?G40D5175E

On Dec 10 2006 1:27 PM, pokerchimp wrote:

> On Dec 9 2006 6:08 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
>
> > It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted that
> > you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as long as
> > you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the suck
> > out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.
> >
>
> When did Tanya say that?
>
> > On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
> >
> > > I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the
BB
> > > doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my
> cards
> > > suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do,
> just
> > > fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I
DON'T
> > have
> > > a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack
push
> > it
> > > in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one
that
> > does
> > > that too.
> > >
> > > T
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> > >
> > > > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > > > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> > > > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > > > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > > > steal raise, except:
> > > >
> > > > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > > > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> > > > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > > > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> > > > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> > > >
> > > > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> > > > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > > > plays and suck out.
> > > >
> > > > Will in New Haven
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> > > > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
> > > > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > > > players at this table for idiots."
>
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

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Date: 10 Dec 2006 13:47:17
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

Wow, she said it on my Birthday!

On Dec 10 2006 3:24 PM, akqjt98 wrote:

> Well, searching google groups, I found this post. It's #2:
> http://masl.to/?G40D5175E
>
>
> On Dec 10 2006 1:27 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
>
> > On Dec 9 2006 6:08 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
> >
> > > It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted
that
> > > you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as long as
> > > you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the suck
> > > out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.
> > >
> >
> > When did Tanya say that?
> >
> > > On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the
> BB
> > > > doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my
> > cards
> > > > suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do,
> > just
> > > > fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I
> DON'T
> > > have
> > > > a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack
> push
> > > it
> > > > in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one
> that
> > > does
> > > > that too.
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > > > > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the
COS
> > > > > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > > > > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > > > > steal raise, except:
> > > > >
> > > > > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > > > > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without
even
> > > > > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > > > > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser
turns
> > > > > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of
tournament
> > > > > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > > > > plays and suck out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Will in New Haven
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> > > > > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation
"The
> > > > > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > > > > players at this table for idiots."
> >
> >
> > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

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Date: 10 Dec 21:59:22
From: Tanya AKA MissT74
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On Dec 10 2006 2:47 PM, pokerchimp wrote:

> Wow, she said it on my Birthday!

Cool! But I didn't say what he thinks I said, he misquoted me. : )

T

>
> On Dec 10 2006 3:24 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
>
> > Well, searching google groups, I found this post. It's #2:
> > http://masl.to/?G40D5175E
> >
> >
> > On Dec 10 2006 1:27 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 9 2006 6:08 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted
> that
> > > > you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as long as
> > > > you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the suck
> > > > out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.
> > > >
> > >
> > > When did Tanya say that?
> > >
> > > > On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and
> > > > > the
> > BB
> > > > > doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my
> > > cards
> > > > > suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to
> > > > > do,
> > > just
> > > > > fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I
> > DON'T
> > > > have
> > > > > a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack
> > push
> > > > it
> > > > > in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one
> > that
> > > > does
> > > > > that too.
> > > > >
> > > > > T
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > > > > > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the
> COS
> > > > > > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > > > > > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > > > > > steal raise, except:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > > > > > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without
> even
> > > > > > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > > > > > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser
> turns
> > > > > > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of
> tournament
> > > > > > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > > > > > plays and suck out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Will in New Haven
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation
> "The
> > > > > > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > > > > > players at this table for idiots."
> > >
> > >
> > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
>
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com

Date: 10 Dec 2006 16:27:18
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

I know...I know u better than that, which is why I asked him to point to
the thread where you elaborate.

On Dec 10 2006 4:59 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:

> On Dec 10 2006 2:47 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
>
> > Wow, she said it on my Birthday!
>
> Cool! But I didn't say what he thinks I said, he misquoted me. : )
>
> T
>
> >
> > On Dec 10 2006 3:24 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
> >
> > > Well, searching google groups, I found this post. It's #2:
> > > http://masl.to/?G40D5175E
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 10 2006 1:27 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Dec 9 2006 6:08 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted
> > that
> > > > > you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as
long as
> > > > > you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the
suck
> > > > > out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > When did Tanya say that?
> > > >
> > > > > On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and
> > > > > > the
> > > BB
> > > > > > doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then
hope my
> > > > cards
> > > > > > suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to
> > > > > > do,
> > > > just
> > > > > > fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if
I
> > > DON'T
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small
stack
> > > push
> > > > > it
> > > > > > in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be
one
> > > that
> > > > > does
> > > > > > that too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > T
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > > > > > > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in
the
> > COS
> > > > > > > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > > > > > > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize
about a
> > > > > > > steal raise, except:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known
that
> > > > > > > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt
without
> > even
> > > > > > > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the
re-raise
> > > > > > > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser
> > turns
> > > > > > > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of
> > tournament
> > > > > > > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make
bad
> > > > > > > plays and suck out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Will in New Haven
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation
> > "The
> > > > > > > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > > > > > > players at this table for idiots."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
> >
> >
> > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

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Date: 10 Dec 21:33:43
From: Tanya AKA MissT74
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

If you read carefully, I stated that my having an A vs. the opponent having a
pair is a coinflip, IMO.

I never said my having an A-rag vs his A-Higher card was a coinflip, in that
incidence I said I hope to suck out on him.

The answer still holds true. If I have a huge chip stack, then I am going to use
it to knock out the smaller stacks. My stack of 78,000 means I can do that to
2,000 chips stacks and if I double them up, so the fuck what...I still have
76,000 to their 4,000.

I've been known to say "I'll either double you up or knock you out" if I have a
huge chip stack, that is what I will do.

Now get off my bra strap, boy, stop sweating me.

T

On Dec 10 2006 1:24 PM, akqjt98 wrote:

> Well, searching google groups, I found this post. It's #2:
> http://masl.to/?G40D5175E
>
>
> On Dec 10 2006 1:27 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
>
> > On Dec 9 2006 6:08 PM, akqjt98 wrote:
> >
> > > It's no surprise that you would say that. You're the one that posted that
> > > you think a rag Ace vs. a bigger Ace or a pair is a coinflip, as long as
> > > you're the bigger stack. Although Fell is probably drooling at the suck
> > > out on him part, so maybe this post has some merit.
> > >
> >
> > When did Tanya say that?
> >
> > > On Dec 9 2006 12:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the
> BB
> > > > doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my
> > cards
> > > > suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do,
> > just
> > > > fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I
> DON'T
> > > have
> > > > a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack
> push
> > > it
> > > > in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one
> that
> > > does
> > > > that too.
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > > > > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> > > > > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > > > > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > > > > steal raise, except:
> > > > >
> > > > > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > > > > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without
> > > > > even
> > > > > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > > > > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser
> > > > > turns
> > > > > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> > > > > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > > > > plays and suck out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Will in New Haven
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> > > > > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
> > > > > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > > > > players at this table for idiots."
> >
> >
> > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7

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Date: 09 Dec 2006 13:48:47
From: johnny T
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

Date: 09 Dec 21:48:03
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On Dec 9 2006 6:56 PM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:

>
> I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the BB
> doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my cards
> suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do, just
> fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I DON'T
> have
> a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack push it
> in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one that
> does
> that too.
>
> T
>

If the BB had a mid stack, I would agree with your bigstack bullying play. But
if the BB was committed, why take a chance to double him up with trash? Let the
button, if he had a hand, or the SB, who should really be pushing with any 2
when folded to him here, try to take out the BB.

By raising as the bigstack with a trash hand at cutoff, you are pushing out the
button who might have a marginal hand and in a better position to take out the
BB, and the SB who would probably fold with a strongish hand, whilst leaving the
BB who is committed to call. Surely bad equity for you to double the BB up?
One more player in the reckoning and all that?

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Date: 09 Dec 2006 13:23:54
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On 9 Dec 2006 10:03:57 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:

>On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
>coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
>or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
>disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
>steal raise, except:

>If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
>the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
>looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
>and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
>out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.

>Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
>where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
>plays and suck out.

I do this sometimes and then wince at my stupidity.

I wonder, though, was this a situation where there might have been
an advantage to taking a shot at knocking out a short stack even as
a dog?

If not, it was just a pure fuckup. How'd the hand actually go and
who played it?

Date: 09 Dec 2006 23:11:29
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:

> On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> steal raise, except:
>
> If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
>
> Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> plays and suck out.
>
> Will in New Haven

Yes and no. There is something to be said for playing a pot and getting
good odds on your money to knock a guy out, not to mention the image
effects of being seen to raise with trash.

Back when I played a fairly tight game, if I had some chips (i.e. the pot
wonnt bust me), and I am in LP with trash, and the BB is committed, I
would raise with my trash, knowing I would get called. Either I'd suck
out and bust someone, or not, but either way, my raises would get much
more play later on.

Gigabet has a similar move (where there is a short allin and a caller, and
he'll reraise with trash such as Q3o to get the pot headsup).

Fell

--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com

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Date: 10 Dec 11:58:14
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

>
> Gigabet has a similar move (where there is a short allin and a caller, and
> he'll reraise with trash such as Q3o to get the pot headsup).
>
> Fell
>
> --
> Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com

Which reminds me of one of my favourite moves...if I am in EP with a big pair,
and I see that there's a shorties behind me, or even better, in the blinds, I'd
nearly always limp, knowing someone will raise trying to get heads-up with the
shortie. Even if no one raises, the shortie will nearly always raise to reopen
the betting if he is short enough (<3BBs to 5BBs).

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Date: 10 Dec 2006 11:13:46
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On Dec 10 2006 4:58 AM, Nick Wool wrote:

> >
> > Gigabet has a similar move (where there is a short allin and a caller, and
> > he'll reraise with trash such as Q3o to get the pot headsup).
> >
> > Fell
> >
> > --
> > Website: http://www.fellknight.com/
> > Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
>
> Which reminds me of one of my favourite moves...if I am in EP with a big
pair,
> and I see that there's a shorties behind me, or even better, in the blinds,
I'd
> nearly always limp, knowing someone will raise trying to get heads-up with
the
> shortie. Even if no one raises, the shortie will nearly always raise to
reopen
> the betting if he is short enough (<3BBs to 5BBs).

Yes, that is a good move (though I have noticed a lot of dumb shorties who
will check their BB with 2xBB left behind and 5 callers, and check/fold
the flop if they miss).

Tournaments are all about looking for opportunities to make the best play,
and the best play often involves thinking outside the box.

Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com

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Date: 09 Dec 2006 22:44:48
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

On Dec 9 2006 7:03 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> steal raise, except:
>
> If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.

have to disagree here for the general case. you're making the point that
the BB didn't have enough chips to fold. now while i agree that here a
raise in the cutoff is a bad play with rags, and even then, if he didn't
raise much more than the BB had, why would he push out button/sb ? in the
SB, however, you may have a higher EV putting the BB all in, than folding
your SB would be. even if you expect to be dominated.
100-200, BB has 300. so you essentially have to put in 200 more for a 400
pot. that's 2-1, so pushing any 2 would be correct here, unless you have a
'read' on a player that hasn't acted yet.
BB with 600 left would give you 700-400, still barely worse than 2-1, and
he actually might fold, so again i'm pushing any 2 here.

-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links

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Date: 09 Dec 2006 13:26:30
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Raise when the BB can't afford to fold

Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote:
> I'm going to have to disagree with you here. If I have a stack, and the BB
> doesn't, then I'm raising with ATC to put him all in, and then hope my cards
> suck out on him. Sure, I double him up, but what else am I going to do, just
> fold and let him have the blinds? Not if I have the chips. Now, if I DON'T have
> a stack, then I can fold, but with a stack, I'm making the small stack push it
> in. You never know too, some have folded to the felt, he could be one that does
> that too.
>
> T

Even if you are on the button (and he might have been in the CoS) you
are risking the possibility that the SB might have a hand when you have
no fold equity on the BB. If you were in the SB and only had to worry
about the BB, your idea would make more sense.

I don't think I would rely on anyone on the PPT, even though some of
them aren't that good, not realizing that he has only 2.5BB left if he
folds. And only 2BB left if he does that and then posts the SB and
folds.

Also, it is early enough in the event that there is not enugh value in
eliminating somone to justify risking losing chips. If I know someone
has to call, I am quite happy to raise with any above-average hand but
I won't just double people up gratuitously.

Will in New Haven

--

"I have seen the David, seen the Mona Lisa too
And I have heard Doc Watson play Columbus Stockade Blues"
Guy Clark - "Dublin Blues

>
>
> On Dec 9 2006 11:03 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>
> > On the vaunted Pro Poker Tour, which we are told awards "the most
> > coveterd title in poker," the chip leader is sitting either in the COS
> > or on the button and makes a steal-raise with small offsuit
> > disconnectors of some sort. Now there's nothing to criticize about a
> > steal raise, except:
> >
> > If he had been paying any attention at ALL, he would have known that
> > the BB has so few chips left that he has to go to the matt without even
> > looking at his cards. The raiser is priced into calling the re-raise
> > and then BB turns over a couple of crap cards also and the raiser turns
> > out to be DOMINATED. Great play, guy.
> >
> > Chip leader sucks out too. It's so nice to see this type of tournament
> > where only the pros play and we don't get to see amateurs make bad
> > plays and suck out.
> >
> > Will in New Haven
> >
> > --
> >
> > "That's the ninth time we have seen a player move all-in and only the
> > second time it hasn't been called." Announcer on PPT, translation "The
> > players on this table are either idiots or are playing the other
> > players at this table for idiots."
>
>
>
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