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Main
Date: 12 Dec
From: stan
Subject: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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Context:
My weekly $.25 - $.50 NLHE home game with my wife's coworkers (who all got
introduced to the game by me). The game plays more like a $1-2 game since these
people all have money and figure a couple hundred dollars is worth the
entertainment value of the evening. There is a straddle and restraddle every
time one of two guys gets the button. Almost noone is willing to fold before
the flop, so raising to narrow the field preflop doesnt work unless you want to
grossly overbet the flop by moving in or betting at least 20BB. There is a
maniac and an assistant-maniac. The maniac is sitting on about $200 after
reloading a couple times for a total of about $180. I have $430 and am the big
stack. Maniac loves to steal pots with nothing but equally hates to have anyone
push back. He is willing to gamble if he thinks he has even the slimmest out or
if he figures he is pot committed. Assistant-maniac just likes to stay in pots
with Maniac because he gets special satisfaction from being the guy who calls
Maniac's bluff with slightly more than nothing.
The Hand:
We are eight-handed. I am on the button with 4 5 offsuit. There is a straddle
and restraddle, and then a nuisance raise to $5. Six callers including myself,
so $30 in the pot. Flop comes 2 3 6 with two clubs, so I flop the nut
straight. Maniac in the SB bets $10. Weak-tight player calls $10, and
assistant maniac also calls. Pot is now $60. I KNOW at least one person has a
flush draw. I decide the pot is big enough and move in. I'm not worried about
the weak-tight guy since he won't call me on a draw and I beat anything he calls
me with. Same thing with Assistant-Maniac since I'm pretty sure he's only in
the pot because of Maniac or the odds the pot was laying to him at the time. So
Maniac thinks and thinks for his last $190 and decides to call me with Qc 4c
even though he says he knows I have a straight already and the table consensus
(I told you it was a home game) was the same. Of course the turn is the 7c so I
lose a huge pot.
My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
from someone with the flush draw? To be honest, I raised all-in here more to
protect my hand than to win any more money. I suppose I could have made a
pot-sized raise and re-evaluate if a scare card comes on the turn, but if
Maniac's calling me anyway, I figure I might as well move in on the flop because
a potsized bet from me that's called by Maniac may well get one of the other two
players to also call with a nut flush or straight flush draw. Is it a lack of
heart on my part not to want any more action here?
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 12 Dec
From: stan
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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Thanks for the replies. I guess I already knew the answer to this one, but it
is easy to get results oriented for the short-term. It was still a good night
for me as the maniac ended up losing back to me and others the entire $400+ he
won in that pot. Variance is a bitch in this game, but I'm batting over .900
over 47 games since we started and I sometimes lose the drive to max out my wins
in favor of just winning consistently. And sorry Cincy, I live in Dallas. It's
funny though - whenever I've introduced other "serious" players to this game,
they usually end up on tilt over bad beats and losing. It's like playing micro
stakes online but with enough money on the line to make you sweat the bad beats.
On Dec 11 2006 6:49 PM, stan wrote:
> Context:
> My weekly $.25 - $.50 NLHE home game with my wife's coworkers (who all got
> introduced to the game by me). The game plays more like a $1-2 game since
> these
> people all have money and figure a couple hundred dollars is worth the
> entertainment value of the evening. There is a straddle and restraddle every
> time one of two guys gets the button. Almost noone is willing to fold before
> the flop, so raising to narrow the field preflop doesnt work unless you want
> to
> grossly overbet the flop by moving in or betting at least 20BB. There is a
> maniac and an assistant-maniac. The maniac is sitting on about $200 after
> reloading a couple times for a total of about $180. I have $430 and am the
> big
> stack. Maniac loves to steal pots with nothing but equally hates to have
> anyone
> push back. He is willing to gamble if he thinks he has even the slimmest out
> or
> if he figures he is pot committed. Assistant-maniac just likes to stay in
> pots
> with Maniac because he gets special satisfaction from being the guy who calls
> Maniac's bluff with slightly more than nothing.
>
> The Hand:
> We are eight-handed. I am on the button with 4 5 offsuit. There is a
> straddle
> and restraddle, and then a nuisance raise to $5. Six callers including
> myself,
> so $30 in the pot. Flop comes 2 3 6 with two clubs, so I flop the nut
> straight. Maniac in the SB bets $10. Weak-tight player calls $10, and
> assistant maniac also calls. Pot is now $60. I KNOW at least one person has
> a
> flush draw. I decide the pot is big enough and move in. I'm not worried
> about
> the weak-tight guy since he won't call me on a draw and I beat anything he
> calls
> me with. Same thing with Assistant-Maniac since I'm pretty sure he's only in
> the pot because of Maniac or the odds the pot was laying to him at the time.
> So
> Maniac thinks and thinks for his last $190 and decides to call me with Qc 4c
> even though he says he knows I have a straight already and the table consensus
> (I told you it was a home game) was the same. Of course the turn is the 7c so
> I
> lose a huge pot.
>
> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
> from someone with the flush draw? To be honest, I raised all-in here more to
> protect my hand than to win any more money. I suppose I could have made a
> pot-sized raise and re-evaluate if a scare card comes on the turn, but if
> Maniac's calling me anyway, I figure I might as well move in on the flop
> because
> a potsized bet from me that's called by Maniac may well get one of the other
> two
> players to also call with a nut flush or straight flush draw. Is it a lack of
> heart on my part not to want any more action here?
>
>
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 01:55:21
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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This hand could be very good for you in the long run. It just confirms
to the maniac and all others that chasing their draws is a good thing.
They will do it again and again and be happy doing it.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:58:46
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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stan wrote:
> Context:
> My weekly $.25 - $.50 NLHE home game with my wife's coworkers (who all got
> introduced to the game by me). The game plays more like a $1-2 game since these
> people all have money and figure a couple hundred dollars is worth the
> entertainment value of the evening. There is a straddle and restraddle every
> time one of two guys gets the button. Almost noone is willing to fold before
> the flop, so raising to narrow the field preflop doesnt work unless you want to
> grossly overbet the flop by moving in or betting at least 20BB. There is a
> maniac and an assistant-maniac. The maniac is sitting on about $200 after
> reloading a couple times for a total of about $180. I have $430 and am the big
> stack. Maniac loves to steal pots with nothing but equally hates to have anyone
> push back. He is willing to gamble if he thinks he has even the slimmest out or
> if he figures he is pot committed. Assistant-maniac just likes to stay in pots
> with Maniac because he gets special satisfaction from being the guy who calls
> Maniac's bluff with slightly more than nothing.
>
> The Hand:
> We are eight-handed. I am on the button with 4 5 offsuit. There is a straddle
> and restraddle, and then a nuisance raise to $5. Six callers including myself,
> so $30 in the pot. Flop comes 2 3 6 with two clubs, so I flop the nut
> straight. Maniac in the SB bets $10. Weak-tight player calls $10, and
> assistant maniac also calls. Pot is now $60. I KNOW at least one person has a
> flush draw. I decide the pot is big enough and move in. I'm not worried about
> the weak-tight guy since he won't call me on a draw and I beat anything he calls
> me with. Same thing with Assistant-Maniac since I'm pretty sure he's only in
> the pot because of Maniac or the odds the pot was laying to him at the time. So
> Maniac thinks and thinks for his last $190 and decides to call me with Qc 4c
> even though he says he knows I have a straight already and the table consensus
> (I told you it was a home game) was the same. Of course the turn is the 7c so I
> lose a huge pot.
>
> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
> from someone with the flush draw? To be honest, I raised all-in here more to
> protect my hand than to win any more money. I suppose I could have made a
> pot-sized raise and re-evaluate if a scare card comes on the turn, but if
> Maniac's calling me anyway, I figure I might as well move in on the flop because
> a potsized bet from me that's called by Maniac may well get one of the other two
> players to also call with a nut flush or straight flush draw. Is it a lack of
> heart on my part not to want any more action here?
I am not going to put "in my opinion" or "I think" all over the place
because it should be obvious that this is my opinion and it is what I
think.
In a cash game, these are recurrant situations and your objective is to
make the most money long-term. In a tournament, there are other
considerations since a tournament resembles playing with your entire
bankroll on the table. Don't let tournament thinking infect your cash
game.
In the long run:
You want to bet enough: Enough that it is a mistake for a flush draw or
set to call you.
After that, you want action: You want to bet the most that the flush
draw is likely to call.
Not knowing that it was the maniac who had the flush draw, I might have
bet less but if he has the flush draw you made the perfect bet.
Think of it this way: If you bet too little and he is right to call,
you will lose money long-term because his winnings when he calls will
exceed the amount you make from his calls when he loses.
If you bet exactly the amount that gives him exactly the odds
(difficult to do in practice) you will break even long-term because he
will hit exactly often enough to get his money back.
If you bet more than he should call, you will make a long-term profit
because he won't make his draw often enough to pay him enough to cover
the amounts that he calls.
Against sensible people, even rather poor players, a bet of 1.5 times
the pot or twice the pot is likely to be too much but you want to bet
the size of the pot with this many potential callers. Obviously, this
"two-stage" approach gives you another shot to force the drawing hand
to either make another mistaken call or fold if a harmless card comes.
Against THIS crowd, I think double the pot is going to get called by
someone and that is what I would probably bet. If you are lucky,
someone with top pair is going to move in because he doesn't want YOU
to have a "practically free card" for your flush draw.
As to whether you want to be called, I think that the answer is that
you should just bet enough that it is a mistake to call and not want
anything. What does it matter what you want because you can't do
anything about it but make the right play.
Or you could guy this guy Alan who posts here for advice.
Will in New Haven
--
"Win the easy hands. Loud, noisy confrontations are for d-gs."
_Poker for Cats_ by Feather
> _______________________________________________________________
> Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:25:19
From: johnny T
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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stan wrote:
> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
> from someone with the flush draw? To be honest, I raised all-in here more to
> protect my hand than to win any more money. I suppose I could have made a
> pot-sized raise and re-evaluate if a scare card comes on the turn, but if
> Maniac's calling me anyway, I figure I might as well move in on the flop because
> a potsized bet from me that's called by Maniac may well get one of the other two
> players to also call with a nut flush or straight flush draw. Is it a lack of
> heart on my part not to want any more action here?
As much as you felt comfortable with losing, up to $190, 1 time out of 5.
You need to answer the question is he going to call. You think yes, if
it is him with the flush draw, and he will always call. Then you can
bet as much as you are willing to lose. And you are a net winner
(overtime), even if you lose now. Allin doesn't change the action, it
only put a max on the action.
If it was too much, you could bet less. If it was not enough, hope he
cashes in for more next time.
Since no amount could make him fold, you are entirely in control of how
much you want to lose.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 20:23:51
From: sng
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
> from someone with the flush draw?
You want the flush draw to call you all day long.
You also want a large bankroll to sustain the variance these whales will
subject your bankroll too.
You then want a big mattress to stuff all the money into.
--
S. Doyle
doyles AT mountaincable DOT net
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 16:57:26
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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Please tell me you live in Ohio
On Dec 11 2006 7:49 PM, stan wrote:
> Context:
> My weekly $.25 - $.50 NLHE home game with my wife's coworkers (who all got
> introduced to the game by me). The game plays more like a $1-2 game since
these
> people all have money and figure a couple hundred dollars is worth the
> entertainment value of the evening. There is a straddle and restraddle every
> time one of two guys gets the button. Almost noone is willing to fold before
> the flop, so raising to narrow the field preflop doesnt work unless you want
to
> grossly overbet the flop by moving in or betting at least 20BB. There is a
> maniac and an assistant-maniac. The maniac is sitting on about $200 after
> reloading a couple times for a total of about $180. I have $430 and am the
big
> stack. Maniac loves to steal pots with nothing but equally hates to have
anyone
> push back. He is willing to gamble if he thinks he has even the slimmest
out or
> if he figures he is pot committed. Assistant-maniac just likes to stay in
pots
> with Maniac because he gets special satisfaction from being the guy who calls
> Maniac's bluff with slightly more than nothing.
>
> The Hand:
> We are eight-handed. I am on the button with 4 5 offsuit. There is a
straddle
> and restraddle, and then a nuisance raise to $5. Six callers including
myself,
> so $30 in the pot. Flop comes 2 3 6 with two clubs, so I flop the nut
> straight. Maniac in the SB bets $10. Weak-tight player calls $10, and
> assistant maniac also calls. Pot is now $60. I KNOW at least one person
has a
> flush draw. I decide the pot is big enough and move in. I'm not worried
about
> the weak-tight guy since he won't call me on a draw and I beat anything he
calls
> me with. Same thing with Assistant-Maniac since I'm pretty sure he's only in
> the pot because of Maniac or the odds the pot was laying to him at the time.
So
> Maniac thinks and thinks for his last $190 and decides to call me with Qc 4c
> even though he says he knows I have a straight already and the table
consensus
> (I told you it was a home game) was the same. Of course the turn is the 7c
so I
> lose a huge pot.
>
> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
> from someone with the flush draw? To be honest, I raised all-in here more to
> protect my hand than to win any more money. I suppose I could have made a
> pot-sized raise and re-evaluate if a scare card comes on the turn, but if
> Maniac's calling me anyway, I figure I might as well move in on the flop
because
> a potsized bet from me that's called by Maniac may well get one of the other
two
> players to also call with a nut flush or straight flush draw. Is it a lack
of
> heart on my part not to want any more action here?
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: 12 Dec 11:42:02
From: Bryan Kimmes
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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On Dec 11 2006 6:49 PM, stan wrote:
> Context:
> My weekly $.25 - $.50 NLHE home game with my wife's coworkers (who all got
> introduced to the game by me). The game plays more like a $1-2 game since
> these
> people all have money and figure a couple hundred dollars is worth the
> entertainment value of the evening. There is a straddle and restraddle every
> time one of two guys gets the button. Almost noone is willing to fold before
> the flop, so raising to narrow the field preflop doesnt work unless you want
> to
> grossly overbet the flop by moving in or betting at least 20BB. There is a
> maniac and an assistant-maniac. The maniac is sitting on about $200 after
> reloading a couple times for a total of about $180. I have $430 and am the
> big
> stack. Maniac loves to steal pots with nothing but equally hates to have
> anyone
> push back. He is willing to gamble if he thinks he has even the slimmest out
> or
> if he figures he is pot committed. Assistant-maniac just likes to stay in
> pots
> with Maniac because he gets special satisfaction from being the guy who calls
> Maniac's bluff with slightly more than nothing.
>
> The Hand:
> We are eight-handed. I am on the button with 4 5 offsuit. There is a
> straddle
> and restraddle, and then a nuisance raise to $5. Six callers including
> myself,
> so $30 in the pot. Flop comes 2 3 6 with two clubs, so I flop the nut
> straight. Maniac in the SB bets $10. Weak-tight player calls $10, and
> assistant maniac also calls. Pot is now $60. I KNOW at least one person has
> a
> flush draw. I decide the pot is big enough and move in. I'm not worried
> about
> the weak-tight guy since he won't call me on a draw and I beat anything he
> calls
> me with. Same thing with Assistant-Maniac since I'm pretty sure he's only in
> the pot because of Maniac or the odds the pot was laying to him at the time.
> So
> Maniac thinks and thinks for his last $190 and decides to call me with Qc 4c
> even though he says he knows I have a straight already and the table consensus
> (I told you it was a home game) was the same. Of course the turn is the 7c so
> I
> lose a huge pot.
>
> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation? Do I want the call
> from someone with the flush draw? To be honest, I raised all-in here more to
> protect my hand than to win any more money.
Why didn't you want to win any more money? You have the nuts.
> I suppose I could have made a
> pot-sized raise and re-evaluate if a scare card comes on the turn, but if
You didn't even have to raise to pot-sized, raise less, get more of them to
call.
> Maniac's calling me anyway, I figure I might as well move in on the flop
> because
> a potsized bet from me that's called by Maniac may well get one of the other
> two
> players to also call with a nut flush or straight flush draw. Is it a lack of
> heart on my part not to want any more action here?
The turn is a much better place to move in, flush-draws are a lot weaker on the
turn. In this case, you would have just folded the turn.
By moving in on the flop you are giving him a chance to gamble. You have the
best of it but......
The blinds will not go up in most cash games, why give him a 1/3 shot at
breaking you?
Wait 1 card, on the turn the desperate flush chaser will still call, with his
chances seriously diminished.
Bryan
>
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 10:29:37
From:
Subject: Re: Opinions please on silly home game hand
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> My question is what exactly do I want in this situation?
You want a wayback machine that will allow you to travel pre-flop,
where you can fold 45-off.
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