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Date: 11 Dec 2006 16:12:02
From: MZB
Subject: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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I'm still kind of kicking myself for my last hand in last night's $20. Stars
PLO8 tourney. Wondering how you would have played it.
Scenario: well over 300 entrants. They pay the top 45. I'm playing very
well. I am now ITM. Next level up is top 30. We are down to 34 players and I
am in about 14th place. Blinds are getting high. Looks like I am in great
shape, a shoo-in for the next level. Of course, the really big payoff is top
8 or 9, so I've got to get there but no rush.
So, I'm in the BB. I get A-5-6-6. All fold but one other player. Flop is
something like 3-4-6. So, I have trips. The nut low would eke out my low.
The straight would eke out my high of trips. Remaining player has a
healthier stack than mine. He makes a healthy bet. He is somewhat new to the
table so I don't have a good read on him. I call. Turn is a 10 of spades. He
bets big. I put him on an A-2, in which case he gets the low. But he could
have a 5-7 in which case he beats my trips with a straight but I get the
low. Or he could have a 2-5. But then my A-3-4-5-6- beats his 2-3-4-5-6 for
low.
Of course, he could have nut low and straight. I took a chance and stayed
with him as he brought me all in.
Bottom line: He had A-2 of spades. The river is a King of spades. There was
also a spade on the flop so he had the nut low and nut high flush and I'm
out.
Should I have even played that hand. (I suspect not as I kind of suckered
myself in, I think!!)
Mel
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Date: 11 Dec 22:08:53
From: redriverr
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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If you see a free flop, that's fine. Calling a sizeable bet for have the pot
with just a set is just not worth it. Cash-ring game you can reload.
Tournament situation your chips a gone and there is no re-buy. Save your chips
when you are sure you are getting something back. Second for high pays nothing.
Second for low pays nothing. What did you get: "NOTHING." Calling on the flop
is not terrible, if you can release when you don't improve on the turn (it's
only a small % of your stack). Calling all-in is "TERRIBLE."
On Dec 11 2006 3:12 PM, MZB wrote:
> I'm still kind of kicking myself for my last hand in last night's $20. Stars
> PLO8 tourney. Wondering how you would have played it.
>
> Scenario: well over 300 entrants. They pay the top 45. I'm playing very
> well. I am now ITM. Next level up is top 30. We are down to 34 players and I
> am in about 14th place. Blinds are getting high. Looks like I am in great
> shape, a shoo-in for the next level. Of course, the really big payoff is top
> 8 or 9, so I've got to get there but no rush.
>
> So, I'm in the BB. I get A-5-6-6. All fold but one other player. Flop is
> something like 3-4-6. So, I have trips. The nut low would eke out my low.
> The straight would eke out my high of trips. Remaining player has a
> healthier stack than mine. He makes a healthy bet. He is somewhat new to the
> table so I don't have a good read on him. I call. Turn is a 10 of spades. He
> bets big. I put him on an A-2, in which case he gets the low. But he could
> have a 5-7 in which case he beats my trips with a straight but I get the
> low. Or he could have a 2-5. But then my A-3-4-5-6- beats his 2-3-4-5-6 for
> low.
>
> Of course, he could have nut low and straight. I took a chance and stayed
> with him as he brought me all in.
>
> Bottom line: He had A-2 of spades. The river is a King of spades. There was
> also a spade on the flop so he had the nut low and nut high flush and I'm
> out.
>
> Should I have even played that hand. (I suspect not as I kind of suckered
> myself in, I think!!)
>
> Mel
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Date: 11 Dec 21:30:26
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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On Dec 11 2006 4:12 PM, MZB wrote:
> I'm still kind of kicking myself for my last hand in last night's $20. Stars
> PLO8 tourney. Wondering how you would have played it.
>
> Scenario: well over 300 entrants. They pay the top 45. I'm playing very
> well. I am now ITM. Next level up is top 30. We are down to 34 players and I
> am in about 14th place. Blinds are getting high. Looks like I am in great
> shape, a shoo-in for the next level. Of course, the really big payoff is top
> 8 or 9, so I've got to get there but no rush.
>
> So, I'm in the BB. I get A-5-6-6. All fold but one other player. Flop is
> something like 3-4-6. So, I have trips. The nut low would eke out my low.
> The straight would eke out my high of trips. Remaining player has a
> healthier stack than mine. He makes a healthy bet. He is somewhat new to the
> table so I don't have a good read on him. I call. Turn is a 10 of spades. He
> bets big. I put him on an A-2, in which case he gets the low. But he could
> have a 5-7 in which case he beats my trips with a straight but I get the
> low. Or he could have a 2-5. But then my A-3-4-5-6- beats his 2-3-4-5-6 for
> low.
>
> Of course, he could have nut low and straight. I took a chance and stayed
> with him as he brought me all in.
>
> Bottom line: He had A-2 of spades. The river is a King of spades. There was
> also a spade on the flop so he had the nut low and nut high flush and I'm
> out.
>
> Should I have even played that hand. (I suspect not as I kind of suckered
> myself in, I think!!)
>
I would get as much money in as I could on the flop. You figure to be winning
at least one way, maybe two ways, and you have redraws at the high if you're not
winning now. I don't think it makes too much of a difference in this specific
instance, since A2 would have called you anyway, but I'd much rather just get it
in rather than have to make a decision once the possible flush is on board.
> Mel
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:04:04
From: MZB
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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Steve et. al.:
Again, thinking about it, I kind of got in deeper and deeper.
I am still unsure if I played it correctly (ie: staying in at all-- forget
about raising; he would have been in with me).
Is this a hand worth my tourney life?? Hard to say. People win with less.
But I think I made a mistake (but that's hindsight-- had I gotten half the
pot I wouldn't be posting now or thinking about it). I risked too much and
my opponent played it very well.
Mel
"steve1127" <43080896@recpoker.com > wrote in message
news:1165872626$919841@recpoker.com...
>
>
>
> On Dec 11 2006 4:12 PM, MZB wrote:
>
>> I'm still kind of kicking myself for my last hand in last night's $20.
>> Stars
>> PLO8 tourney. Wondering how you would have played it.
>>
>> Scenario: well over 300 entrants. They pay the top 45. I'm playing very
>> well. I am now ITM. Next level up is top 30. We are down to 34 players
>> and I
>> am in about 14th place. Blinds are getting high. Looks like I am in great
>> shape, a shoo-in for the next level. Of course, the really big payoff is
>> top
>> 8 or 9, so I've got to get there but no rush.
>>
>> So, I'm in the BB. I get A-5-6-6. All fold but one other player. Flop is
>> something like 3-4-6. So, I have trips. The nut low would eke out my low.
>> The straight would eke out my high of trips. Remaining player has a
>> healthier stack than mine. He makes a healthy bet. He is somewhat new to
>> the
>> table so I don't have a good read on him. I call. Turn is a 10 of spades.
>> He
>> bets big. I put him on an A-2, in which case he gets the low. But he
>> could
>> have a 5-7 in which case he beats my trips with a straight but I get the
>> low. Or he could have a 2-5. But then my A-3-4-5-6- beats his 2-3-4-5-6
>> for
>> low.
>>
>> Of course, he could have nut low and straight. I took a chance and stayed
>> with him as he brought me all in.
>>
>> Bottom line: He had A-2 of spades. The river is a King of spades. There
>> was
>> also a spade on the flop so he had the nut low and nut high flush and I'm
>> out.
>>
>> Should I have even played that hand. (I suspect not as I kind of suckered
>> myself in, I think!!)
>>
> I would get as much money in as I could on the flop. You figure to be
> winning
> at least one way, maybe two ways, and you have redraws at the high if
> you're not
> winning now. I don't think it makes too much of a difference in this
> specific
> instance, since A2 would have called you anyway, but I'd much rather just
> get it
> in rather than have to make a decision once the possible flush is on
> board.
>
>> Mel
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:21:24
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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On Dec 11 2006 2:12 PM, MZB wrote:
> I'm still kind of kicking myself for my last hand in last night's $20. Stars
> PLO8 tourney. Wondering how you would have played it.
>
> Scenario: well over 300 entrants. They pay the top 45. I'm playing very
> well. I am now ITM. Next level up is top 30. We are down to 34 players and I
> am in about 14th place. Blinds are getting high. Looks like I am in great
> shape, a shoo-in for the next level. Of course, the really big payoff is top
> 8 or 9, so I've got to get there but no rush.
>
> So, I'm in the BB. I get A-5-6-6. All fold but one other player. Flop is
> something like 3-4-6. So, I have trips. The nut low would eke out my low.
> The straight would eke out my high of trips. Remaining player has a
> healthier stack than mine. He makes a healthy bet. He is somewhat new to the
> table so I don't have a good read on him. I call. Turn is a 10 of spades. He
> bets big. I put him on an A-2, in which case he gets the low. But he could
> have a 5-7 in which case he beats my trips with a straight but I get the
> low. Or he could have a 2-5. But then my A-3-4-5-6- beats his 2-3-4-5-6 for
> low.
>
> Of course, he could have nut low and straight. I took a chance and stayed
> with him as he brought me all in.
>
> Bottom line: He had A-2 of spades. The river is a King of spades. There was
> also a spade on the flop so he had the nut low and nut high flush and I'm
> out.
>
> Should I have even played that hand. (I suspect not as I kind of suckered
> myself in, I think!!)
>
> Mel
I think on the flop you should raise or fold. Don't call off your stack
looking for half the pot. Especially in PL, where you want 3/4's and
scoops to profit.
I'd lean towards folding, personally, unless the stacks are deep enough to
act on information you gain from raising. A2xx is a fairly common hand to
see in this game (with limpers or raisers) and given that people rarely
fold that hand, regardless, I might just fold mine, rather than hope that
my high holds up or that his low is counterfeited (sets are not big hands
in this game, most of the time in fact they are money losers).
I am FAR from an expert in PLO8, though, so take that with a grain of
salt. I certainly am not a fan of calling pot sized bets with this hand,
though, I'd much rather you raise the pot to see if you can win it there,
or fold and move on to the next hand.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
--------
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:30:42
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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On Dec 11 2006 4:21 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
> On Dec 11 2006 2:12 PM, MZB wrote:
>
> > I'm still kind of kicking myself for my last hand in last night's $20.
Stars
> > PLO8 tourney. Wondering how you would have played it.
> >
> > Scenario: well over 300 entrants. They pay the top 45. I'm playing very
> > well. I am now ITM. Next level up is top 30. We are down to 34 players and
I
> > am in about 14th place. Blinds are getting high. Looks like I am in great
> > shape, a shoo-in for the next level. Of course, the really big payoff is
top
> > 8 or 9, so I've got to get there but no rush.
> >
> > So, I'm in the BB. I get A-5-6-6. All fold but one other player. Flop is
> > something like 3-4-6. So, I have trips. The nut low would eke out my low.
> > The straight would eke out my high of trips. Remaining player has a
> > healthier stack than mine. He makes a healthy bet. He is somewhat new to
the
> > table so I don't have a good read on him. I call. Turn is a 10 of spades.
He
> > bets big. I put him on an A-2, in which case he gets the low. But he could
> > have a 5-7 in which case he beats my trips with a straight but I get the
> > low. Or he could have a 2-5. But then my A-3-4-5-6- beats his 2-3-4-5-6
for
> > low.
> >
> > Of course, he could have nut low and straight. I took a chance and stayed
> > with him as he brought me all in.
> >
> > Bottom line: He had A-2 of spades. The river is a King of spades. There
was
> > also a spade on the flop so he had the nut low and nut high flush and I'm
> > out.
> >
> > Should I have even played that hand. (I suspect not as I kind of suckered
> > myself in, I think!!)
> >
> > Mel
>
> I think on the flop you should raise or fold. Don't call off your stack
> looking for half the pot. Especially in PL, where you want 3/4's and
> scoops to profit.
>
> I'd lean towards folding, personally, unless the stacks are deep enough to
> act on information you gain from raising. A2xx is a fairly common hand to
> see in this game (with limpers or raisers) and given that people rarely
> fold that hand, regardless, I might just fold mine, rather than hope that
> my high holds up or that his low is counterfeited (sets are not big hands
> in this game, most of the time in fact they are money losers).
>
> I am FAR from an expert in PLO8, though, so take that with a grain of
> salt. I certainly am not a fan of calling pot sized bets with this hand,
> though, I'd much rather you raise the pot to see if you can win it there,
> or fold and move on to the next hand.
I don't like folding the flop. From what I gather there was no raise
preflop, and the opponent must be the SB (since he acts first here,
unless MZB ignored that he was check-calling here).
On the flop, he could be stabbing with anything, and given the lack of
raise I doubt it's something premium like A25x or anything. I'd more
likely give him credit for the straight off the bat, but unless it's A25x,
he's not scooping us. In addition, we have a draw to counterfeit his
straight and take 3/4, not to mention the top set. Folding here is
pretty weak.
I think I raise the flop, but otherwise I have no problem with the way the
hand went down. Runner-runner shitty happens.
-------
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:39:52
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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First of all, I would like to acknowledge your status as a PLO8 god, and I
thank you for condescending to reply to the like of me here in this
thread, but I do have some follow up questions:
> I don't like folding the flop. From what I gather there was no raise
> preflop, and the opponent must be the SB (since he acts first here,
> unless MZB ignored that he was check-calling here).
>
>
> On the flop, he could be stabbing with anything, and given the lack of
> raise I doubt it's something premium like A25x or anything. I'd more
> likely give him credit for the straight off the bat, but unless it's A25x,
> he's not scooping us. In addition, we have a draw to counterfeit his
> straight and take 3/4, not to mention the top set. Folding here is
> pretty weak.
>
> I think I raise the flop, but otherwise I have no problem with the way the
> hand went down. Runner-runner shitty happens.
Rereading the post, it sounds like it took two bets to put the OP all in
(since he says he called all in on the turn, I think, and the river
knocked him out). Given that, any raise would commit him here (or put him
all in I guess).
Is this really a flop you want to be all in on with top set and the second
nut low? On the surface it seems okay. If you are so short that you are
all in on the turn without any raises, then probably this is a good hand
to go with.
But all that aside, if the guy has A2, then we can only scoop with a
deuce, whereas he could have many potential cards to scoop us with
(assuming we are ahead now, that is). Wouldn't this be a negative equity
situation for his hand? If so, is that enough to override the shortness
of his stack and the fact that he has second nut both ways (or third nut
for high, I guess).
I know in a lot of cases his hand is really good, but in this case it only
takes three cards to beat him both ways, not four, which increases his
vulnerability substantially (I think).
Again, total noob here, feel free to rip into me as you see fit.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 05:56:24
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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On Dec 11 2006 4:39 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
> First of all, I would like to acknowledge your status as a PLO8 god, and I
> thank you for condescending to reply to the like of me here in this
> thread, but I do have some follow up questions:
Take off the 8 and I'll accept the endorsement...nevertheless....
> Is this really a flop you want to be all in on with top set and the second
> nut low? On the surface it seems okay. If you are so short that you are
> all in on the turn without any raises, then probably this is a good hand
> to go with.
>
> But all that aside, if the guy has A2, then we can only scoop with a
> deuce, whereas he could have many potential cards to scoop us with
> (assuming we are ahead now, that is). Wouldn't this be a negative equity
> situation for his hand? If so, is that enough to override the shortness
> of his stack and the fact that he has second nut both ways (or third nut
> for high, I guess).
If he has A2, yes, we're in deep poopy. That's a pretty big if though in
a BvB confrontation that was unraised preflop. His range here is going
to be pretty wide, especially if he as any sense at all and/or our OP gave
away through his playing style that not raising from the BB means he's
unlikely to have A2 himself.
It's like anything else....you have to play it like you're best and if he
happens to show you the better hand this particular time, thems the
breaks. 3rd nut high and 2nd nut low, heads up, means all my money gets
in there fairly quickly.
You can get away from it with deeper stacks (or if he's a known A2
player), but given it only takes two pot sized bets to get us in, the
hand's plenty valuable to take a stand.
---
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 06:11:43
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: O8 tourney--what would u have done
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On Dec 12 2006 8:56 AM, GrouchySmurf1002 wrote:
> On Dec 11 2006 4:39 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> > First of all, I would like to acknowledge your status as a PLO8 god, and I
> > thank you for condescending to reply to the like of me here in this
> > thread, but I do have some follow up questions:
>
> Take off the 8 and I'll accept the endorsement...nevertheless....
>
>
> > Is this really a flop you want to be all in on with top set and the second
> > nut low? On the surface it seems okay. If you are so short that you are
> > all in on the turn without any raises, then probably this is a good hand
> > to go with.
> >
> > But all that aside, if the guy has A2, then we can only scoop with a
> > deuce, whereas he could have many potential cards to scoop us with
> > (assuming we are ahead now, that is). Wouldn't this be a negative equity
> > situation for his hand? If so, is that enough to override the shortness
> > of his stack and the fact that he has second nut both ways (or third nut
> > for high, I guess).
>
> If he has A2, yes, we're in deep poopy. That's a pretty big if though in
> a BvB confrontation that was unraised preflop. His range here is going
> to be pretty wide, especially if he as any sense at all and/or our OP gave
> away through his playing style that not raising from the BB means he's
> unlikely to have A2 himself.
>
> It's like anything else....you have to play it like you're best and if he
> happens to show you the better hand this particular time, thems the
> breaks. 3rd nut high and 2nd nut low, heads up, means all my money gets
> in there fairly quickly.
>
> You can get away from it with deeper stacks (or if he's a known A2
> player), but given it only takes two pot sized bets to get us in, the
> hand's plenty valuable to take a stand.
I don't know what a "known A2 player" is either. I need caffeine. I
think I meant that he's known to overplay A2xx.
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