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Date: 29 Nov 2006 11:55:29
From:
Subject: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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The short answer is, I got busted out on the play, so it could be
argued I messed up.
No limit hold'em tournament, $2000 in starting chips, 1 rebuy allowed
in first hour of play, 51 players. I'm not getting any cards but make
it past the rebuy break and start the second hour with just over $1600
in chips. I'm one of the short stacks at my table.
I get dealt KQ suited of clubs.
First guy limps in with $100.
second guy folds.
I bump it to $200.
Fourth guy calls.
fifth, sixth, and small all fold.
Big blind (eighth guy, chip leader) calls.
Pot is $850.
Flop is A, J of clubs, A diamond.
I've got the nut flush draw, straight draw, royal flush draw, and two
overs to the J.
First guy goes all in for $1400.
I go all in for $1425 hoping to chase out guys #4 and #8. But they both
call and guy 4 is all in. Guy 4 had a little less than the $1425 I put
in. We had had no all in bets previous to this, and now 3 of us were
all in. Noone at the table had been particularly aggressive, all solid
players, except guy #1 who seemed to be playing only his cards and not
paying any attention to the table or bets.
Would you have folded my drawing hand or did I make the right play?
The end game was: guy #1 had KJo, guy #8 had pocket 10's (with my
needed 10 clubs), don't recall what guy #4 had but was on a draw...
none of us had an Ace.
Turn comes 10, to fill up guy #8 and I'm drawing dead. He takes all 3
of us out.
What do you think?
GD
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Date: 29 Nov 22:09:17
From: Teabagger
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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I hate all of it. Making a serious raise (T400-500), Limping or Folding all make
sense.
I would never call into a paired board. With action so far, AJ is a very likely
holding. If someone han an ace, you could still lose if you hit if the board
pairs by the river, or the board pairs his Ax. Jamming if you're first in might
make a little sense, but this is a clear fold.
On Nov 29 2006 2:55 PM, supineinsd@gmail.com wrote:
> The short answer is, I got busted out on the play, so it could be
> argued I messed up.
> No limit hold'em tournament, $2000 in starting chips, 1 rebuy allowed
> in first hour of play, 51 players. I'm not getting any cards but make
> it past the rebuy break and start the second hour with just over $1600
> in chips. I'm one of the short stacks at my table.
>
> I get dealt KQ suited of clubs.
> First guy limps in with $100.
> second guy folds.
> I bump it to $200.
> Fourth guy calls.
> fifth, sixth, and small all fold.
> Big blind (eighth guy, chip leader) calls.
> Pot is $850.
>
> Flop is A, J of clubs, A diamond.
> I've got the nut flush draw, straight draw, royal flush draw, and two
> overs to the J.
>
> First guy goes all in for $1400.
> I go all in for $1425 hoping to chase out guys #4 and #8. But they both
> call and guy 4 is all in. Guy 4 had a little less than the $1425 I put
> in. We had had no all in bets previous to this, and now 3 of us were
> all in. Noone at the table had been particularly aggressive, all solid
> players, except guy #1 who seemed to be playing only his cards and not
> paying any attention to the table or bets.
>
> Would you have folded my drawing hand or did I make the right play?
> The end game was: guy #1 had KJo, guy #8 had pocket 10's (with my
> needed 10 clubs), don't recall what guy #4 had but was on a draw...
> none of us had an Ace.
> Turn comes 10, to fill up guy #8 and I'm drawing dead. He takes all 3
> of us out.
>
> What do you think?
>
> GD
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 14:02:12
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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Aodhan wrote:
> > I get dealt KQ suited of clubs.
> > First guy limps in with $100.
> > second guy folds.
> > I bump it to $200.
> > Flop is A, J of clubs, A diamond.
> > First guy goes all in for $1400.
> > I go all in for $1425 hoping to chase out guys #4 and #8. But they both
>
> Again, why? The first guy either has an A with a mediocre/bad kicker, or
> something like Jx (TJ, QJ and KJ are all very possible here, all of which
> put you even further behind. With TJ, one of your tens is gone, with QJ
> and JK then your outs are also further reduced to just the clubs)
In fact, each of those three hands is a 44-56 dog against the KQ clubs.
(This surprised me when I checked it on twodimes).
The K or Q coming will counterfeit the pair of jacks, giving the OP
the higher kicker, so they are in fact outs to win.
> trying to protect. You are a very large underdog here to anything that can
> bet. With two other callers, it's very likely one of them will call. Best
> case scenario is they both call and two players go down.
That was my first reaction. But checking on twodimes shows that if
the two behind fold, the OP is 56% to double up, and if the two call
then the OP is about 40% to quad up (depending on what the other
caller had, the OP didn't say).
New question: in a tourney, would you rather be 56% to double up,
or 40% to quad up? (Obviously in a cash game you'd go for the quad)
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 13:55:37
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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supineinsd@gmail.com wrote:
> You guys are right. I should have folded to the all in bet before me
> because of the two guys yet to act behind me.
Not exactly. The first problem is that you had better have a GOOD
read that #1 was on Jx (making you a 11-to-9 favourite) rather than
Ax (when you are a 2-1 dog).
The second problem is that the two players behind you have some
sort of a hand. Most players play high cards so it's likely that they
either have an A, K, Q, or T, all of which are bad for you. Of course
it's good if they fold, but even then, your outs have been reduced
so you are probably pretty close to 50-50 with #1.
I think preflop if you had raised more, you would have left yourself
an easier flop decision. Of course the other alternative was to
limp preflop, then the #1 may not have been inclined to jam.
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 13:13:59
From:
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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You guys are right. I should have folded to the all in bet before me
because of the two guys yet to act behind me. My faulty logic was that
by me going all in (basically a call), the other 2 would fold
(figureing I had a monster hand) leaving me heads up with the 'least
solid' player there. I put him on a J for sure but figured I'd make a
flush and bust him.
I counted the overs to the J because I was pretty sure the guy had a J
(because he went all in). And if he had AJ, KJ, QJ or JJ I thought that
he would have more than just limped in preflop. He had been playing
with worse cards than that earlier in the game. Of course in the end he
did have KJ so my logic was wrong there too.
So at the time I was thinking, any club, K, Q or 10 and I'd win (16
outs with two tries).
Live and learn. I still can't help but think it would have been an ok
play to make against one player with no one left to act.
GD
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:30:07
From: Aodhan
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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> I get dealt KQ suited of clubs.
> First guy limps in with $100.
> second guy folds.
> I bump it to $200.
Why? KQ is a hand where you want callers, you'll need to make two pair or
a straight most times to have a chance. Either flat call or fold it. Don't
screw around with crap like a min raise in middle position.
> Flop is A, J of clubs, A diamond.
> I've got the nut flush draw, straight draw, royal flush draw, and two
> overs to the J.
Why are you counting overs to the J? you have 12 outs. 3 non club tens,
and the clubs, and those may not all be good either if Ax his x, or if
you're already up against AJ you're dead.
> First guy goes all in for $1400.
> I go all in for $1425 hoping to chase out guys #4 and #8. But they both
Again, why? The first guy either has an A with a mediocre/bad kicker, or
something like Jx (TJ, QJ and KJ are all very possible here, all of which
put you even further behind. With TJ, one of your tens is gone, with QJ
and JK then your outs are also further reduced to just the clubs) and is
trying to protect. You are a very large underdog here to anything that can
bet. With two other callers, it's very likely one of them will call. Best
case scenario is they both call and two players go down.
> Would you have folded my drawing hand or did I make the right play?
> The end game was: guy #1 had KJo, guy #8 had pocket 10's (with my
> needed 10 clubs), don't recall what guy #4 had but was on a draw...
> none of us had an Ace.
> Turn comes 10, to fill up guy #8 and I'm drawing dead. He takes all 3
> of us out.
>
> What do you think?
I think you do better flat calling preflop and folding to the all in on
the flop, or folding KQ preflop. Don't fuck around with your tournament
life drawing to hands that are way behind to start with and may not be
good if they get there. If this was BEFORE the rebuy period ended, then
your play might be justifiable.
Aodhan
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 15:29:31
From: PoMoFo
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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Personally I generally don't like min-raises, especially preflop, I think
they often signify a weak attempt at some sort of ill-defined strategy. A
real raise, say T500 or so, would have set you up better for the flop. You
probably would have had less callers, certainly more information about your
opponents, and they would have fear you, especially on that flop, because
they could easily imagine you had AK, for instance.
Setting that aside, I really don't like your call on the flop. You have no
fold equity, the board is paired so you can't be sure you have any good outs
other than the Tc, you are on a draw, you have only T25 more than the bet to
you so you can't push out anyone behind you, and you have very little
invested in the pot. Fold and look for a better opportunity.
You mention that you pushed all-in for the extra T25 on the flop "hoping to
chase out guys #4 and #8". Well for T25 you aren't going to be able to do
that, but more importantly, why would you want to? You have to hit your
"nut" straight, your "nut" flush, or your royal flush to have any real hope
of taking down the pot, and in that case, the more the merrier. What hands
were you imagining #4 and #8 had that you would want to push out of the pot?
PoMoFo
<supineinsd@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164830129.683618.186140@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> The short answer is, I got busted out on the play, so it could be
> argued I messed up.
> No limit hold'em tournament, $2000 in starting chips, 1 rebuy allowed
> in first hour of play, 51 players. I'm not getting any cards but make
> it past the rebuy break and start the second hour with just over $1600
> in chips. I'm one of the short stacks at my table.
>
> I get dealt KQ suited of clubs.
> First guy limps in with $100.
> second guy folds.
> I bump it to $200.
> Fourth guy calls.
> fifth, sixth, and small all fold.
> Big blind (eighth guy, chip leader) calls.
> Pot is $850.
>
> Flop is A, J of clubs, A diamond.
> I've got the nut flush draw, straight draw, royal flush draw, and two
> overs to the J.
>
> First guy goes all in for $1400.
> I go all in for $1425 hoping to chase out guys #4 and #8. But they both
> call and guy 4 is all in. Guy 4 had a little less than the $1425 I put
> in. We had had no all in bets previous to this, and now 3 of us were
> all in. Noone at the table had been particularly aggressive, all solid
> players, except guy #1 who seemed to be playing only his cards and not
> paying any attention to the table or bets.
>
> Would you have folded my drawing hand or did I make the right play?
> The end game was: guy #1 had KJo, guy #8 had pocket 10's (with my
> needed 10 clubs), don't recall what guy #4 had but was on a draw...
> none of us had an Ace.
> Turn comes 10, to fill up guy #8 and I'm drawing dead. He takes all 3
> of us out.
>
> What do you think?
>
> GD
>
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:17:43
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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> What do you think?
Fold that garbage preflop.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 29 Nov 20:06:20
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: NLHE tournament - did I make the right play?
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On Nov 29 2006 2:55 PM, supineinsd@gmail.com wrote:
> The short answer is, I got busted out on the play, so it could be
> argued I messed up.
> No limit hold'em tournament, $2000 in starting chips, 1 rebuy allowed
> in first hour of play, 51 players. I'm not getting any cards but make
> it past the rebuy break and start the second hour with just over $1600
> in chips. I'm one of the short stacks at my table.
>
> I get dealt KQ suited of clubs.
> First guy limps in with $100.
> second guy folds.
> I bump it to $200.
I don't like this. If you want to keep the pot small, limp. If you want to win
the pot, raise to $400.
> Fourth guy calls.
> fifth, sixth, and small all fold.
> Big blind (eighth guy, chip leader) calls.
> Pot is $850.
>
> Flop is A, J of clubs, A diamond.
> I've got the nut flush draw, straight draw, royal flush draw, and two
> overs to the J.
>
> First guy goes all in for $1400.
> I go all in for $1425 hoping to chase out guys #4 and #8.
Yikes. Definite fold. One of the guys behind you could easily have AJ or even
Ax, stealing some of your outs. If player one checks, I like a jam, but not
after the all-in in front of you.
But they both
> call and guy 4 is all in. Guy 4 had a little less than the $1425 I put
> in. We had had no all in bets previous to this, and now 3 of us were
> all in. Noone at the table had been particularly aggressive, all solid
> players, except guy #1 who seemed to be playing only his cards and not
> paying any attention to the table or bets.
>
> Would you have folded my drawing hand or did I make the right play?
> The end game was: guy #1 had KJo, guy #8 had pocket 10's (with my
> needed 10 clubs), don't recall what guy #4 had but was on a draw...
> none of us had an Ace.
> Turn comes 10, to fill up guy #8 and I'm drawing dead. He takes all 3
> of us out.
>
> What do you think?
>
> GD
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