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Main
Date: 08 Dec 2006 20:44:24
From: Elvis Henry
Subject: Lessons In Razz
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In clearing a bonus on Stars, I discovered that instead of toiling at
no limit HE tables and hoping for $20 pots, I could just play limit
Razz and an FPP clears when the rake hits 40 cents, or about an $8 pot.
I don't know what the fuck is up with that, but that's Stars for ya.
Anyway, after having played for hours here is what I have learned about
Razz cash games:
1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
hope the fucker folds.
2) To make money, just as in limit HE, you have to fold a lot. I
suspect this is why EstebanAA is constantly going tits up on Stars and
always has to reload. He's a fucking fish.
3) I placed 2nd in a Razz MTT the other night. I was heads up with an
even stack, and it was 4:00 a.m. and I could barely hold my head up. I
took my sleeping pills at 12:30 when I thought I was going to bust out
on the bubble. Then I started catching cards like there was no
tomorrow. If I'd been awake, I would have cleaned that fucker's clock.
Anyway, don't play Razz impaired.
4) Pre-4th street raising wars are dumb. Never cap betting. Your hand
can turn to complete shit by 4th street and you're fucked. It isn't
like getting all of your money in with AA in NLHE. I am sure there are
those who will tell me I'm wrong. If so, fuck you.
5) Razz requires more brains and skill than NLHE. In NLHE it is better
to be lucky than good. You will never convince me that JohnnyBax is
anything other than very lucky. He plays shit hands just like everyone
else, except he gets lucky and hits miracle flops. Fuck him.
In closing, it is an elegant game, and the money to be made on Stars is
at the Razz tables. I know some say 2-7 lowball is a cash cow, but I
have the worst luck with draw games. Fuckers always hit 75432 on me
after discarding 4 cards on the third draw. Fuckers.
Anyway, Merry Fucking Christmas. I wish you all the very best.
Love,
Elvis F. Henry
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 22:05:49
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 8 2006 11:44 PM, Elvis Henry wrote:
> In clearing a bonus on Stars, I discovered that instead of toiling at
> no limit HE tables and hoping for $20 pots, I could just play limit
> Razz and an FPP clears when the rake hits 40 cents, or about an $8 pot.
> I don't know what the fuck is up with that, but that's Stars for ya.
>
> Anyway, after having played for hours here is what I have learned about
> Razz cash games:
>
> 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> hope the fucker folds.
>
WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE PLAY THESE HANDS IN RAZZ??
> 2) To make money, just as in limit HE, you have to fold a lot. I
> suspect this is why EstebanAA is constantly going tits up on Stars and
> always has to reload. He's a fucking fish.
>
> 3) I placed 2nd in a Razz MTT the other night. I was heads up with an
> even stack, and it was 4:00 a.m. and I could barely hold my head up. I
> took my sleeping pills at 12:30 when I thought I was going to bust out
> on the bubble. Then I started catching cards like there was no
> tomorrow. If I'd been awake, I would have cleaned that fucker's clock.
> Anyway, don't play Razz impaired.
>
> 4) Pre-4th street raising wars are dumb. Never cap betting. Your hand
> can turn to complete shit by 4th street and you're fucked. It isn't
> like getting all of your money in with AA in NLHE. I am sure there are
> those who will tell me I'm wrong. If so, fuck you.
>
> 5) Razz requires more brains and skill than NLHE. In NLHE it is better
> to be lucky than good. You will never convince me that JohnnyBax is
> anything other than very lucky. He plays shit hands just like everyone
> else, except he gets lucky and hits miracle flops. Fuck him.
>
> In closing, it is an elegant game, and the money to be made on Stars is
> at the Razz tables. I know some say 2-7 lowball is a cash cow, but I
> have the worst luck with draw games. Fuckers always hit 75432 on me
> after discarding 4 cards on the third draw. Fuckers.
>
> Anyway, Merry Fucking Christmas. I wish you all the very best.
>
> Love,
>
> Elvis F. Henry
thumbers on stars, pokerchimp1 on absolute
------
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 20:58:25
From: Zidane Valor
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
> 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> hope the fucker folds.
I have NEVER heard anyone say to play A2K or A2Q or any of these hands.
Never. The cardinal beginner rule in Razz is three of eight or below.
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Date: 08 Dec 2006 22:23:39
From: RazzO
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
I was dealing a $300-$600 Razz game at Mirage about 15 years ago. It was
two handed. I can't recall who Johnny was playing. I dealt a hand that
gave Chan a Q and the other player an Ace as door cards. Chan brought it
in and the guy raised, Johnny called. The next cards gave Chan a K and the
other player a 9. The guy bet and Johnny raised. His opponent calls. 5th
street gave Chan a 2 and the guy paired hid 9. Chan bet out and the guy
calls. 6th street Johnny catches another baby card and the opponent
catches a baby card. Chan bets out $600 and the guy folds. Johnny mucked
without showing.
But you, however, should never start out holding a brick.
On Dec 8 2006 8:58 PM, Zidane Valor wrote:
> > 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> > says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> > fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> > your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> > shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> > hope the fucker folds.
>
> I have NEVER heard anyone say to play A2K or A2Q or any of these hands.
> Never. The cardinal beginner rule in Razz is three of eight or below.
RazzO
email:ticorazz (at) yahoo.com
http://www.razzo.com
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Date: 09 Dec
From: AtticusCole
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 9 2006 1:23 AM, RazzO wrote:
> You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
>
>
> I was dealing a $300-$600 Razz game at Mirage about 15 years ago. It was
> two handed. I can't recall who Johnny was playing. I dealt a hand that
> gave Chan a Q and the other player an Ace as door cards. Chan brought it
> in and the guy raised, Johnny called. The next cards gave Chan a K and the
> other player a 9. The guy bet and Johnny raised. His opponent calls. 5th
> street gave Chan a 2 and the guy paired hid 9. Chan bet out and the guy
> calls. 6th street Johnny catches another baby card and the opponent
> catches a baby card. Chan bets out $600 and the guy folds. Johnny mucked
> without showing.
>
> But you, however, should never start out holding a brick.
>
>
>
> On Dec 8 2006 8:58 PM, Zidane Valor wrote:
>
> > > 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> > > says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> > > fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> > > your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> > > shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> > > hope the fucker folds.
> >
> > I have NEVER heard anyone say to play A2K or A2Q or any of these hands.
> > Never. The cardinal beginner rule in Razz is three of eight or below.
>
>
> RazzO
> email:ticorazz (at) yahoo.com
> http://www.razzo.com/
More ridiculous celebrity worship/name dropping from Razzo. Typical.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 23:00:09
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 8 2006 11:23 PM, RazzO wrote:
> You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
>
>
> I was dealing a $300-$600 Razz game at Mirage about 15 years ago. It was
> two handed. I can't recall who Johnny was playing. I dealt a hand that
> gave Chan a Q and the other player an Ace as door cards. Chan brought it
> in and the guy raised, Johnny called. The next cards gave Chan a K and the
> other player a 9. The guy bet and Johnny raised. His opponent calls. 5th
> street gave Chan a 2 and the guy paired hid 9. Chan bet out and the guy
> calls. 6th street Johnny catches another baby card and the opponent
> catches a baby card. Chan bets out $600 and the guy folds. Johnny mucked
> without showing.
>
> But you, however, should never start out holding a brick.
There is exactly one time when it is ok to start with a bad one (other
than when it is hidden and you are stealing). Guess.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 16:17:57
From: Tom Cruise's Ex-Girlfriend's Secret Lover
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
"Zidane Valor" <ad202a1@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
> I have NEVER heard anyone say to play A2K or A2Q or any of these hands.
> Never. The cardinal beginner rule in Razz is three of eight or below.
The other day on FTP, the bring in had a king for a door card. There were
door cards all over the table below 8. He raised. After he lost the hand,
and a lot of money in the process, I asked him why he raised with such junk.
The reply: "I had A2 buried." I told him that it was a bad hand. He told
me I knew nothing about Razz. I decided then to not try and make him think
any differently.
There are plenty of Razz players who think A2-Trash is a power hand. We
need these players in order to make money at the tables.
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Date: 09 Dec 18:32:23
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
Continuing with an K for a door card in Razz is simply brain dead. It makes
players like myself drool when you bring it in and call with that garbage
because you have two low in the hole.
Let's look at this from the other side.
You have a K and bring it in. I have a 9. (Let's assume we're heads up, no
other players at the table.) I raise you. You call. Your call is based on the
assumption that I have rolled-up 9s. Okay, a pair makes your call semi-correct
as well. (I suppose I could have 9KK in this spot. If that's your read, you
should slowplay and wait for 5th street) If I don't have either of these, but
have a 9 low and I make my hand on 5th street... I'll be betting a made 9
against your K. I'm winning with two cards to come and double bets! Yay me!
Now... let's say your in this hand with a draw to beat my 9. Miraculously,
you're catching babies and you now have A357K on 5th st. Nh, sir. I have a 9
made and I'm drawing to improve, too. So where does that leave you? Well...
that puts you in a coin flip with two cards to come. Well played. Better hope
you don't brick now.
What if I have a 6 to draw to now? Uh oh... now you're a 2-to-1 dog. Thank you
for continuing with that K.
What's funny is that I played this hand today heads-up against a player with a K
against my 9. He called the raise. I catch an A on 4th against his Q. He
called. I made a 9 on 5th, paired on 6th, and bricked on the river. I check
the river with rough 9. He took the pot with a slightly less rough 9.
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 2c Qd Kh 58509 11.70 440398 88.08 1093 0.22 0.118
As 2s 3c 9h 440398 88.08 58509 11.70 1093 0.22 0.882
On Dec 8 2006 8:44 PM, Elvis Henry wrote:
> In clearing a bonus on Stars, I discovered that instead of toiling at
> no limit HE tables and hoping for $20 pots, I could just play limit
> Razz and an FPP clears when the rake hits 40 cents, or about an $8 pot.
> I don't know what the fuck is up with that, but that's Stars for ya.
>
> Anyway, after having played for hours here is what I have learned about
> Razz cash games:
>
> 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> hope the fucker folds.
>
> 2) To make money, just as in limit HE, you have to fold a lot. I
> suspect this is why EstebanAA is constantly going tits up on Stars and
> always has to reload. He's a fucking fish.
>
> 3) I placed 2nd in a Razz MTT the other night. I was heads up with an
> even stack, and it was 4:00 a.m. and I could barely hold my head up. I
> took my sleeping pills at 12:30 when I thought I was going to bust out
> on the bubble. Then I started catching cards like there was no
> tomorrow. If I'd been awake, I would have cleaned that fucker's clock.
> Anyway, don't play Razz impaired.
>
> 4) Pre-4th street raising wars are dumb. Never cap betting. Your hand
> can turn to complete shit by 4th street and you're fucked. It isn't
> like getting all of your money in with AA in NLHE. I am sure there are
> those who will tell me I'm wrong. If so, fuck you.
>
> 5) Razz requires more brains and skill than NLHE. In NLHE it is better
> to be lucky than good. You will never convince me that JohnnyBax is
> anything other than very lucky. He plays shit hands just like everyone
> else, except he gets lucky and hits miracle flops. Fuck him.
>
> In closing, it is an elegant game, and the money to be made on Stars is
> at the Razz tables. I know some say 2-7 lowball is a cash cow, but I
> have the worst luck with draw games. Fuckers always hit 75432 on me
> after discarding 4 cards on the third draw. Fuckers.
>
> Anyway, Merry Fucking Christmas. I wish you all the very best.
>
> Love,
>
> Elvis F. Henry
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 09 Dec 18:53:51
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 9 2006 12:32 PM, Kincaid wrote:
>
> Continuing with an K for a door card in Razz is simply brain dead. It makes
> players like myself drool when you bring it in and call with that garbage
> because you have two low in the hole.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2234756
pokenum -mc 500000 -r ad 2d kd - 3d 4d 9d / ah as ac 2h 2s 2c
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Kd 2d 271035 54.21 228965 45.79 0 0.00 0.542
9d 4d 3d 228965 45.79 271035 54.21 0 0.00 0.458
drool away, dumb shit.
Heads up, not having any dead cards does make the A2K about a 65/35 dog. But
dead cards often change things a lot.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
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Date: 09 Dec 19:06:37
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
Thanks for your insight, Gary.
Please reread my post and tell me where I said (A2)K is a 2-1 dog to a 9.
Don't call me 'dumb shit' unless you're going to make a flawless retort.
Until then,
On Dec 9 2006 10:53 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Dec 9 2006 12:32 PM, Kincaid wrote:
>
> >
> > Continuing with an K for a door card in Razz is simply brain dead. It makes
> > players like myself drool when you bring it in and call with that garbage
> > because you have two low in the hole.
>
> http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2234756
> pokenum -mc 500000 -r ad 2d kd - 3d 4d 9d / ah as ac 2h 2s 2c
> Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
> cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
> Ad Kd 2d 271035 54.21 228965 45.79 0 0.00 0.542
> 9d 4d 3d 228965 45.79 271035 54.21 0 0.00 0.458
>
> drool away, dumb shit.
>
> Heads up, not having any dead cards does make the A2K about a 65/35 dog. But
> dead cards often change things a lot.
>
>
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
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| | | | |
Date: 09 Dec 19:10:10
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 9 2006 1:06 PM, Kincaid wrote:
>
> Thanks for your insight, Gary.
>
> Please reread my post and tell me where I said (A2)K is a 2-1 dog to a 9.
I said it. I said it's a 2/1 dog in one particular circumstance against one
particular 9.
What you had said that I was commenting on was some kind of nonsense about (A2)K
never ever being worth playing
You said that you'd have to be brain dead to call a raise when you're ahead.
>
> Don't call me 'dumb shit' unless you're going to make a flawless retort.
So would dumb ass be prefered here? How about idiot?
What should I call you?
>
> Until then,
>
>
> On Dec 9 2006 10:53 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 9 2006 12:32 PM, Kincaid wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Continuing with an K for a door card in Razz is simply brain dead. It
> > > makes
> > > players like myself drool when you bring it in and call with that garbage
> > > because you have two low in the hole.
> >
> > http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2234756
> > pokenum -mc 500000 -r ad 2d kd - 3d 4d 9d / ah as ac 2h 2s 2c
> > Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
> > cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
> > Ad Kd 2d 271035 54.21 228965 45.79 0 0.00 0.542
> > 9d 4d 3d 228965 45.79 271035 54.21 0 0.00 0.458
> >
> > drool away, dumb shit.
> >
> > Heads up, not having any dead cards does make the A2K about a 65/35 dog.
> > But
> > dead cards often change things a lot.
> >
> >
> > Gary Carson
> > http://www.garycarson.com
> >
> >
>
>
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 09 Dec 20:03:15
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
I see what's happening here.
Gary, there are some people who like you. Me, I don't give a shit because we've
never met. Anyway... I've heard that you have a need within you to pummel those
around you to build yourself up. it's kinda childish, really. Especially when
you do it on the internet to people who weren't even responding to your post.
So... I'm not going feed you anymore. I'd the pot were filled with self-esteem,
I'd fold the nuts and let you take it down.
On Dec 9 2006 11:10 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Dec 9 2006 1:06 PM, Kincaid wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanks for your insight, Gary.
> >
> > Please reread my post and tell me where I said (A2)K is a 2-1 dog to a 9.
>
> I said it. I said it's a 2/1 dog in one particular circumstance against one
> particular 9.
>
> What you had said that I was commenting on was some kind of nonsense about
> (A2)K
> never ever being worth playing
>
> You said that you'd have to be brain dead to call a raise when you're ahead.
>
> >
> > Don't call me 'dumb shit' unless you're going to make a flawless retort.
>
> So would dumb ass be prefered here? How about idiot?
>
> What should I call you?
>
> >
> > Until then,
> >
> >
> > On Dec 9 2006 10:53 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 9 2006 12:32 PM, Kincaid wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Continuing with an K for a door card in Razz is simply brain dead. It
> > > > makes
> > > > players like myself drool when you bring it in and call with that
> > > > garbage
> > > > because you have two low in the hole.
> > >
> > > http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2234756
> > > pokenum -mc 500000 -r ad 2d kd - 3d 4d 9d / ah as ac 2h 2s 2c
> > > Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
> > > cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
> > > Ad Kd 2d 271035 54.21 228965 45.79 0 0.00 0.542
> > > 9d 4d 3d 228965 45.79 271035 54.21 0 0.00 0.458
> > >
> > > drool away, dumb shit.
> > >
> > > Heads up, not having any dead cards does make the A2K about a 65/35 dog.
> > > But
> > > dead cards often change things a lot.
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary Carson
> > > http://www.garycarson.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 09 Dec 20:15:24
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 9 2006 2:03 PM, Kincaid wrote:
>
> I see what's happening here.
Okay. IC too. You're just flat out wrong but it's not really wrong because you
don't like me.
Gee. You ruined my day.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2006 10:26:44
From: Jim Anderson (thejim2020)
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
Play good hands (3 to a 7, 8 if the 8 is hidden). Play aggressively.
Bet your board. Fold if you know you're beat, and/or unsure about
your draw being good. I enjoy Razz, and have made good money
(relative; good money to me may not be to someone else) since Stars
added the game. However, there is no way that there is more skill in
Razz than NLHE. And, I think it's misleading to say that you like
Razz, but not draw games, as much of the time Razz is all about the
better draw.
|
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 09:33:19
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
RazzO wrote:
> You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
Not a Razz player myself, but wouldn't there be tournament situations
where you have to play a hand that you would normally not play,
including hoping to get lucky with two wheelers and a King?
I can't imagine playing that in a cash game but my only Razz experience
is at a HORSE cash table and in a HORSE tournament. It would seem to me
that the normal thinking for any game will change in certain tournament
situations.
Will in New Haven
--
"I have seen the David, seen the Mona Lisa too
And I have heard Doc Watson play Columbus Stockade Blues"
Guy Clark - "Dublin Blues
>
>
> I was dealing a $300-$600 Razz game at Mirage about 15 years ago. It was
> two handed. I can't recall who Johnny was playing. I dealt a hand that
> gave Chan a Q and the other player an Ace as door cards. Chan brought it
> in and the guy raised, Johnny called. The next cards gave Chan a K and the
> other player a 9. The guy bet and Johnny raised. His opponent calls. 5th
> street gave Chan a 2 and the guy paired hid 9. Chan bet out and the guy
> calls. 6th street Johnny catches another baby card and the opponent
> catches a baby card. Chan bets out $600 and the guy folds. Johnny mucked
> without showing.
>
> But you, however, should never start out holding a brick.
>
>
>
> On Dec 8 2006 8:58 PM, Zidane Valor wrote:
>
> > > 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> > > says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> > > fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> > > your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> > > shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> > > hope the fucker folds.
> >
> > I have NEVER heard anyone say to play A2K or A2Q or any of these hands.
> > Never. The cardinal beginner rule in Razz is three of eight or below.
>
>
> RazzO
> email:ticorazz (at) yahoo.com
> http://www.razzo.com
>
> ------
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|
| | |
Date: 09 Dec 18:43:45
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
|
On Dec 9 2006 11:33 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> RazzO wrote:
> > You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
>
> Not a Razz player myself, but wouldn't there be tournament situations
> where you have to play a hand that you would normally not play,
> including hoping to get lucky with two wheelers and a King?
I you have (A2)K and the bring in you should usually call a raise to see 4th
street, depending on the visible dead cards.
For example, if you're raised by an 8 and see some A's and 2's and no 8's among
the folded up cards you should call a raise with the (A2)K. If you then catch Q
and he catches a 7 you should give it up. But if you catch a 7 and he catche a
Q you're good to go. To call, not the bet.
>
> I can't imagine playing that in a cash game but my only Razz experience
> is at a HORSE cash table and in a HORSE tournament. It would seem to me
> that the normal thinking for any game will change in certain tournament
> situations.
>
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> "I have seen the David, seen the Mona Lisa too
> And I have heard Doc Watson play Columbus Stockade Blues"
> Guy Clark - "Dublin Blues
>
> >
> >
> > I was dealing a $300-$600 Razz game at Mirage about 15 years ago. It was
> > two handed. I can't recall who Johnny was playing. I dealt a hand that
> > gave Chan a Q and the other player an Ace as door cards. Chan brought it
> > in and the guy raised, Johnny called. The next cards gave Chan a K and the
> > other player a 9. The guy bet and Johnny raised. His opponent calls. 5th
> > street gave Chan a 2 and the guy paired hid 9. Chan bet out and the guy
> > calls. 6th street Johnny catches another baby card and the opponent
> > catches a baby card. Chan bets out $600 and the guy folds. Johnny mucked
> > without showing.
> >
> > But you, however, should never start out holding a brick.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 8 2006 8:58 PM, Zidane Valor wrote:
> >
> > > > 1) A2K at a full table is absolute shit. I don't care what anyone
> > > > says. It's shit. It's even bigger shit if the K is up -- mother
> > > > fuckers won't believe you have A2 in the hole and they'll draw out on
> > > > your sorry ass. Same goes for A2Q, A2J, AA2, A2T, and A29. Fold that
> > > > shit unless you are in late position and raise the bring-in guy and
> > > > hope the fucker folds.
> > >
> > > I have NEVER heard anyone say to play A2K or A2Q or any of these hands.
> > > Never. The cardinal beginner rule in Razz is three of eight or below.
> >
> >
> > RazzO
> > email:ticorazz (at) yahoo.com
> > http://www.razzo.com/
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 13:19:15
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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On 9 Dec 2006 09:33:19 -0800, "Will in New Haven"
<bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:
>RazzO wrote:
>> You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
>Not a Razz player myself, but wouldn't there be tournament situations
>where you have to play a hand that you would normally not play,
>including hoping to get lucky with two wheelers and a King?
Yes.
>I can't imagine playing that in a cash game but my only Razz experience
>is at a HORSE cash table and in a HORSE tournament. It would seem to me
>that the normal thinking for any game will change in certain tournament
>situations.
Stealing blinds is an obvious situation where you'll sometimes start with
trash. When you do this, there is a rather large possibility of someone
playing back at you without a great hand themselves. Sometimes
these situations will make it to seventh.
Generally, though, you would never, ever play a hand like A2K for value
in a cash game. Unless you were against a king up to begin with, or some
similar probable steal raise. Even then, the stealer would have to have
a very broad range of stealing hands and a very bad card up. (If there's
a razz wizard, it might be useful to know, given a normal ante/bringin
structure, what range of hands A2K would actually be ahead of for a
steal-raiser, and what range of hands would be justifiable to play against
purely for value and not counting outplaying.)
There are also situations with an early raiser in a very loose and passive
game (which I haven't seen since when Tilt first introduced the game),
where you have a king up and the bring-in, and a lot of callers come in,
where you get reasonable implied odds on getting paid off if you catch
good, because of a number of bad players in the pot. Good luck finding
that situation anywhere online.
Really, if you never, ever played A2K under any circumstances, ace up,
defending the bring-in, whatever, I doubt you'd be making much of a
mistake. With the ace or the deuce up it's worth a steal, but then
so is almost anything with a low card up.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 23:06:48
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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On Dec 9 2006 10:33 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> RazzO wrote:
> > You never start with a bad one in Razz. Never. Unless you're Johnny Chan.
>
> Not a Razz player myself, but wouldn't there be tournament situations
> where you have to play a hand that you would normally not play,
> including hoping to get lucky with two wheelers and a King?
I got crippled in a hand and have 3x the ante. I had to go allin the next
hand with KQ9 (I won) :)
> I can't imagine playing that in a cash game but my only Razz experience
> is at a HORSE cash table and in a HORSE tournament. It would seem to me
> that the normal thinking for any game will change in certain tournament
> situations.
There are a couple of times where it is playable, if only VERY marginally.
> Will in New Haven
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 04:52:52
From:
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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I agree with the poster a few above....3 below 8 is generally the
rule....having a K or Q showing is jsut asking for trouble
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/?key=MDAwMDBDODIwMDAwMUUwNTAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDE-
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 02:19:57
From: Omaha Chris
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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I liked this post.
Haha, "elegant game."
Razz is as elegant as a one-legged whore with dysentery.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 17:02:46
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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On Dec 9, 2:35 pm, "XaQ Morphy" <a1c5...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> > Anyway, don't play Razz impaired.My experiences were the exact opposite. The only way I could play Razz
> was on various forms of pain killers.
>
> Morphyhttp://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
>
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> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com
Makes perfect sense to me. Razz is the most painful game to play. I
especially like getting rolled up in Razz two out of ten hands, then
getting nothing but A36 rainbow during the Stud portion of a HORSE
tourney.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 22:02:31
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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On 9 Dec 2006 17:02:46 -0800, "phlash74" <phlash74@msn.com > wrote:
>On Dec 9, 2:35 pm, "XaQ Morphy" <a1c5...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>> > Anyway, don't play Razz impaired.My experiences were the exact opposite. The only way I could play Razz
>> was on various forms of pain killers.
>> Morphyhttp://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
>Makes perfect sense to me. Razz is the most painful game to play. I
>especially like getting rolled up in Razz two out of ten hands, then
>getting nothing but A36 rainbow during the Stud portion of a HORSE
>tourney.
That's how I can tell they switched to Stud, because I start getting
Razz hands.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 14:35:00
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Lessons In Razz
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> Anyway, don't play Razz impaired.
My experiences were the exact opposite. The only way I could play Razz
was on various forms of pain killers.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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