| |
Main
Date: 19 Dec 2006 12:41:39
From: Bronzedodger
Subject: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
General question about a situation that seems to come up often enough in
the low-limit no-limit games I've played in.
Playing in a $2/$5 game this weekend and this came up more than once.
While usually it would be raised to $20+ pre-flop, occasionally we'd get a
family pot with 6-7 people seeing a flop for $5. In LP, or in the blinds,
I'd play if I had any kind of hand. But then it leads to situation like:
Sitting in BB with K-8o.
Family pot, 4 people have limped.
Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
callers.
So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
into $25 pot - and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
what?
In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
would not have been played for a $20 raise. Yet, OOP, do you really want
to be raising with K-8o?
------
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 19:28:07
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:41:39 -0800, "Bronzedodger" <a686ed@webnntp.invalid >
wrote:
>Sitting in BB with K-8o.
>Family pot, 4 people have limped.
>Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
>callers.
>So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
Check.
>In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
>into $25 pot - and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
>what?
I never make this bet. If I do, I make it for half to two-thirds of the pot.
If I really think I have the best hand, and I don't know why I would,
I check-raise in the hopes of taking it down. An alternate move is to
make a small bet in the hopes of everyone just calling and getting a
cheap turn, which if it gives me two pair or better, I can actually play.
Still, it isn't all that brilliant to be drawing to five out bullshit that might
not even be good if you hit it. There are all kinds of goofy things
you can do on a flop like this.
But really, mostly I just check and fold. Why get involved with a flop
like that? You paid your big blind, and hit a mediocre hand on a
coordinated, very dangerous flop. On to the next hand.
>In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
>having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
>OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
>would not have been played for a $20 raise. Yet, OOP, do you really want
>to be raising with K-8o?
No. Your best case scenario is you're looking at a naked flush draw here.
Lots of bad players can't seem to see a flush draw without going all in on
it.
Incidentally, if you had called here, and if you had known his exact hand,
you'd have been justified to call with all the money in the pot, you were
a dog to win the hand.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec
Board: 4c 5d 8d
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.0808 % 48.08% 00.00% { Ks8c }
Hand 2: 51.9192 % 51.92% 00.00% { 9d4d }
|
| | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 20:04:59
From: Bronzedodger
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
On Dec 19 2006 7:28 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> No. Your best case scenario is you're looking at a naked flush draw here.
> Lots of bad players can't seem to see a flush draw without going all in on
> it.
>
> Incidentally, if you had called here, and if you had known his exact hand,
> you'd have been justified to call with all the money in the pot, you were
> a dog to win the hand.
>
> Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
>
> 990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec
>
> Board: 4c 5d 8d
> Dead:
>
> equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
> Hand 1: 48.0808 % 48.08% 00.00% { Ks8c }
> Hand 2: 51.9192 % 51.92% 00.00% { 9d4d }
Thanks for the all the reples - should have been obvious, but sometimes,
you just gotta ask to make the answer clear.
Will actually make the game much easier on the brain in the blinds (cash
games anyway).
What exactly would be bingo? Top 2 pair or better?
-----
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 03:14:18
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
WIth the whole table in the hand you need a monster, aka the nuts. Top
pair with that many in the hand is an easy easy fold. Two pair is
probably a fold too. With that many in it you should be very very
afraid. If you do hit hard and want to play I suggest making a huge bet.
This will hopefully run off most people. If they all fold its ok too.
Thats better that betting 20 and having a whole table full of cards that
can catch something.
If the table limps I want to fold if Im not in a blind. If I get a huge
starting hand, KK or AA, I would raise it huge here as well. The usual
raise, in your case 20, would do very little since the pot odds would
make a lot of poeple call. I am very cautious in multiway pots, and the
more that enter the hand the worse I feel.
There are several reasons to play junk starting hands. Being in the big
blind and getting a free flop is one of them. Whenever I play junk, for
whatever reason I play it, I say to myself "killer flop or fold". If I
hit a pair on the flop I usually fold easily. Unless its a killer flop
its time to run and fight another day. Its just too easy to be beaten.
My philosophy is people are just trying to give away their money. They
cant wait for the chance to bump it up and risk their whole stack. Since
they will pay you off its best to be vrey tight and wait until you know
you are in a huge lead. With 88 and a bad K kicker I am not happy. There
is very little chance you know how good your hand is here. You will come
across a hand later on where you know you have it. When that happens
there will probably be at least one person who will go along with your
big bets.
Fold like its crack and youre a crackwhore. Get addicted to folding even
good hands. Folding is a huge part of outplaying people.
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 08:05:19
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
On Dec 20 2006 1:14 AM, ben carr wrote:
> WIth the whole table in the hand you need a monster, aka the nuts. Top
> pair with that many in the hand is an easy easy fold. Two pair is
> probably a fold too.
> With that many in it you should be very very
> afraid. If you do hit hard and want to play I suggest making a huge bet.
> This will hopefully run off most people. If they all fold its ok too.
> Thats better that betting 20 and having a whole table full of cards that
> can catch something.
Yikes. How, exactly, do you make any money at NL?
> If the table limps I want to fold if Im not in a blind.
Yikes. How, exactly, do you make any money at NL?
> If I get a huge
> starting hand, KK or AA, I would raise it huge here as well. The usual
> raise, in your case 20, would do very little since the pot odds would
> make a lot of poeple call. I am very cautious in multiway pots, and the
> more that enter the hand the worse I feel.
>
> There are several reasons to play junk starting hands. Being in the big
> blind and getting a free flop is one of them. Whenever I play junk, for
> whatever reason I play it, I say to myself "killer flop or fold". If I
> hit a pair on the flop I usually fold easily. Unless its a killer flop
> its time to run and fight another day. Its just too easy to be beaten.
Yikes. How, exactly, do you make any money at NL?
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
_____________________________________________________________________
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 08:40:45
From: Bronzedodger
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
On Dec 20 2006 11:05 AM, FellKnight wrote:
> On Dec 20 2006 1:14 AM, ben carr wrote:
>
> > WIth the whole table in the hand you need a monster, aka the nuts. Top
> > pair with that many in the hand is an easy easy fold. Two pair is
> > probably a fold too.
>
>
> > With that many in it you should be very very
> > afraid. If you do hit hard and want to play I suggest making a huge bet.
> > This will hopefully run off most people. If they all fold its ok too.
> > Thats better that betting 20 and having a whole table full of cards that
> > can catch something.
>
> Yikes. How, exactly, do you make any money at NL?
>
> > If the table limps I want to fold if Im not in a blind.
>
> Yikes. How, exactly, do you make any money at NL?
>
> > If I get a huge
> > starting hand, KK or AA, I would raise it huge here as well. The usual
> > raise, in your case 20, would do very little since the pot odds would
> > make a lot of poeple call. I am very cautious in multiway pots, and the
> > more that enter the hand the worse I feel.
> >
> > There are several reasons to play junk starting hands. Being in the big
> > blind and getting a free flop is one of them. Whenever I play junk, for
> > whatever reason I play it, I say to myself "killer flop or fold". If I
> > hit a pair on the flop I usually fold easily. Unless its a killer flop
> > its time to run and fight another day. Its just too easy to be beaten.
>
> Yikes. How, exactly, do you make any money at NL?
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: www.fellknight.com
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
The advice is still warranted, though I don't think I'd play that tight
(if I did I'd collect nothing bu the blinds with big hands...like I did
with KK). I called a guy's all-in with ATo after flopping an ace because
he'd been at the table all of 15m and was playing crazy. I vacuumed up his
chips - don't know if he even had a pair. However, that was heads-up with
a specific read - there were other players on the table that I would not
have called in the same situation.
If the table as loose as a rule, I would tighten up - but things were
generally pretty TAG-like, so you had to loosen up a little or you'd be
stuck waiting for QQ+, and getting no action when it arrived.
-------
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:08:39
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
On Dec 19 2006 3:41 PM, Bronzedodger wrote:
> General question about a situation that seems to come up often enough in
> the low-limit no-limit games I've played in.
>
> Playing in a $2/$5 game this weekend and this came up more than once.
> While usually it would be raised to $20+ pre-flop, occasionally we'd get a
> family pot with 6-7 people seeing a flop for $5. In LP, or in the blinds,
> I'd play if I had any kind of hand. But then it leads to situation like:
>
> Sitting in BB with K-8o.
> Family pot, 4 people have limped.
> Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
> callers.
> So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
I might do this if I catch people in LP starting to muck their hands and
then changing their mind when they see the limp parade. I might make a
big raise if the limpers were shortish and I had a big stack. I might do
this if I saw any other indication I could force some folds.
In a game where a decent raise gets ignored and still attracts 4 players,
I'm not playing a bigger pot OOP against a bunch of randoms without a
huge hand.
> In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
> into $25 pot and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
> what?
I ask myself why I bet. If the stacks are deep, I'm not losing the
diamond draws. Limp pots usually equal small cards, and so that flop
probably hit one or more people pretty card. I have an extremely
vulnerable hand with little chance of improvement and I'm OOP. None of
that really lends itself to building a pot.
> In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
> having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
Correct decision.
> OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
> would not have been played for a $20 raise.
For one, you don't know for sure. There are zillions of players that
once they limp in the pot aren't letting go of their cards unless you use
some sort of explosive. Just because you wouldn't have played it for a
raise from behind, doesn't mean your opponents won't.
For two, he's a favorite over your hand on the flop.
> et, OOP, do you really want to be raising with K-8o?
Nope, and the thought wouldn't cross my mind from the BB.
----
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 20 Dec 14:40:58
From: Teabagger
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
The answer is simple - you have a shitty hand. The flop is very dangerous.
Against this table, I would probably take a shot for 50% of the pot on the flop.
If i get any resistance, I'm done.
Checking and folding is probably the better option.
What's the rule - don't go broke on an unraised pot.
On Dec 19 2006 4:08 PM, GrouchySmurf1002 wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 3:41 PM, Bronzedodger wrote:
>
> > General question about a situation that seems to come up often enough in
> > the low-limit no-limit games I've played in.
> >
> > Playing in a $2/$5 game this weekend and this came up more than once.
> > While usually it would be raised to $20+ pre-flop, occasionally we'd get a
> > family pot with 6-7 people seeing a flop for $5. In LP, or in the blinds,
> > I'd play if I had any kind of hand. But then it leads to situation like:
> >
> > Sitting in BB with K-8o.
> > Family pot, 4 people have limped.
> > Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
> > callers.
> > So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
>
> I might do this if I catch people in LP starting to muck their hands and
> then changing their mind when they see the limp parade. I might make a
> big raise if the limpers were shortish and I had a big stack. I might do
> this if I saw any other indication I could force some folds.
>
> In a game where a decent raise gets ignored and still attracts 4 players,
> I'm not playing a bigger pot OOP against a bunch of randoms without a
> huge hand.
>
> > In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
> > into $25 pot and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
> > what?
>
> I ask myself why I bet. If the stacks are deep, I'm not losing the
> diamond draws. Limp pots usually equal small cards, and so that flop
> probably hit one or more people pretty card. I have an extremely
> vulnerable hand with little chance of improvement and I'm OOP. None of
> that really lends itself to building a pot.
>
> > In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
> > having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
>
> Correct decision.
>
> > OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
> > would not have been played for a $20 raise.
>
> For one, you don't know for sure. There are zillions of players that
> once they limp in the pot aren't letting go of their cards unless you use
> some sort of explosive. Just because you wouldn't have played it for a
> raise from behind, doesn't mean your opponents won't.
>
> For two, he's a favorite over your hand on the flop.
>
> > et, OOP, do you really want to be raising with K-8o?
>
> Nope, and the thought wouldn't cross my mind from the BB.
_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:11:04
From: GrimJack808
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
If you are going to play junk for cheap, you need to be willing to get
away from it before it becomes expensive.
There are a myriad of ways to play a hand like that, but here is what I
would do.
1) Since you have top pair top kicker, put in a small bet, maybe $10-15
(25% to 50% of the pot) and see what people do. If someone goes all in
over the top of you on that board, they probably have you beat with 2
pair or they have made a set limping with their low pocket pair. At
the very least they have an over pair 99 or TT that they figure is only
good if they can take down the pot prior to the turn or river (As it
could come a face card and someone could outpair them. The set and 2
pair are obviously trying to take it down and prevent the flush draws.
2) If I get pushed around and am not isolated by the time it gets back
to me, I have to fold. Its no big deal, I lost a minimum blind and a
small feeler bet.
3) If I am being pushed around and am heads up, then I need to think a
little more. What is the percentage chance that the person could be
semi-bluffing the flush draw? I have to read the player. Maybe the
nut flush draw with middle or top pair. I still can't feel comfortable
with my top pair, second best kicker here. (A8 would have possibly
limped here too). If I feel the player is straight ahead, why do I want
to get mixed up with a guy who may have me beat already and may be
drawing to a hand that leaves me drawing dead? If I read the guy as
have made a few plays before, maybe I make a loose (donk like) call.
More than likely I fold.
Just remember there is nothing you can do to win all the pots you
enter. Also the hallmark of a solid player is being able to fold some
hands when he is holding the best hand (at the time).
And you answered your own question about making a move pre-flop. K8os
is not a hand to be raising with, especially in a cash game. Maybe in
a tourney under perfect conditions.
The thing about LL-NL-HE is that most players aren't too sophisticated
and will not fold to a better hand, so bluffing doesn't work. In a big
pot like that, unless you think the player who went over the top is
pretty sophisticated and are willing to risk their chips bluffing into
an unbluffable crowd, they probably have you beat.
Good Luck!
--------------------------------------------------------------
$100 Free Party Poker Bankroll -OR- $50 Free Titan Poker Bankroll
$100 Free Absolute Poker Bankroll
No Deposit/No Credit Card
http://www.pokersourceonline.com/freepoker/money.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808
Extra $60-$90-$120 over & above normal bonus for 12 popular sites:
http://www.pokersourceonline.com/freepoker/gifts.asp?rc=GRIMJACK808
Bronzedodger wrote:
> General question about a situation that seems to come up often enough in
> the low-limit no-limit games I've played in.
>
> Playing in a $2/$5 game this weekend and this came up more than once.
> While usually it would be raised to $20+ pre-flop, occasionally we'd get a
> family pot with 6-7 people seeing a flop for $5. In LP, or in the blinds,
> I'd play if I had any kind of hand. But then it leads to situation like:
>
> Sitting in BB with K-8o.
> Family pot, 4 people have limped.
> Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
> callers.
> So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
> In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
> into $25 pot - and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
> what?
> In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
> having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
> OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
> would not have been played for a $20 raise. Yet, OOP, do you really want
> to be raising with K-8o?
>
> ------
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 12:54:18
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
> Sitting in BB with K-8o.
> Family pot, 4 people have limped.
> Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
> callers.
> So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
> In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
> into $25 pot - and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
> what?
> In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
> having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
> OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
> would not have been played for a $20 raise. Yet, OOP, do you really want
> to be raising with K-8o?
Here's what I do in this situation. Check pre-flop. Check-fold on the
flop. Here's the way I see it, and I know others disagree, but I also
know people agree with my line of thinking. It's a limped pot. You're in
for 1BB. You can't really expect to have the best hand on that flop with
a bunch of limpers. But even if you do, you're OOP and it's going to cost
you a bit to find out you have the best/worst hand.
So check-fold. So let's say you're wrong, and you had the best hand, and
hell, who knows, it would have held up. Big deal, you lost 1BB in chips.
But as you found out, the cost of finding out that you don't have the best
hand, is a bunch more than 1BB in chips.
I say check-fold to any action, and wait for the next hand. It's ok to
lose the blind money with a speculative hand. IMO of course.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
-----
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 12:56:15
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
On Dec 19 2006 1:54 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> > Sitting in BB with K-8o.
> > Family pot, 4 people have limped.
> > Previously, if someone in LP bump it to $20-$25, they'd still get 2 or 3
> > callers.
> > So what do you do? Raise to $25 and hope to take it down? Raise to $40?
> > In this case, I check, and the flop is 4-5-8 with two diamonds. I bet $20
> > into $25 pot - and OP goes all-in in for about another $100 on top. Now
> > what?
> > In the glass is half-empty department, I figure anything from 6-7o to 8-5o
> > having me in bad shape, and definitely not worth the call - I dropped it.
> > OP showed 9-4 of diamonds for bottom pair + flush draw - something that
> > would not have been played for a $20 raise. Yet, OOP, do you really want
> > to be raising with K-8o?
>
> Here's what I do in this situation. Check pre-flop. Check-fold on the
> flop. Here's the way I see it, and I know others disagree, but I also
> know people agree with my line of thinking. It's a limped pot. You're in
> for 1BB. You can't really expect to have the best hand on that flop with
> a bunch of limpers. But even if you do, you're OOP and it's going to cost
> you a bit to find out you have the best/worst hand.
>
> So check-fold. So let's say you're wrong, and you had the best hand, and
> hell, who knows, it would have held up. Big deal, you lost 1BB in chips.
> But as you found out, the cost of finding out that you don't have the best
> hand, is a bunch more than 1BB in chips.
I do disagree with you here. It's not just 1BB. It's zero BBs. You have
to post no matter what, but you don't have to voluntarily commit money to
the pot.
You had a free chance to flop a monster. You can give it up at zero cost.
> I say check-fold to any action, and wait for the next hand. It's ok to
> lose the blind money with a speculative hand. IMO of course.
>
> Morphy
> http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
---
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:00:23
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: LLNL: Question with no answer?
|
> I do disagree with you here. It's not just 1BB. It's zero BBs. You have
> to post no matter what, but you don't have to voluntarily commit money to
> the pot.
>
> You had a free chance to flop a monster. You can give it up at zero cost.
Good point. So many people get caught up in the "defend your blinds"
mantra that it's comical at times what you'll see shown down. Post your
blind, lose the hand, make it up later on.
I like your line of thought here. The whole it's not your money it's the
pot's money thing really strikes home here.
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
____________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
|
