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Date: 11 Dec 2006 12:35:59
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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Situation: Pechanga tourney. At final table, all ten remain. I am CL
with 130k, but blinds are already 5k/10k. Chop has been suggested, but
Pechanga will only chop evenly, and there are three severely short stacked
(2k, 4k, 7k). Everyone agreed to the chop except me. I flat out said I
would CONSIDER it after the 3 shorties were gone.
Player to my left is (according to him) playing his first live tourney
ever. He has made a number of basic betting mistakes, which has lead us
to believe he is telling the truth. He had reached the final table with a
bigger stack than I had by calling an all-in for 80k (when he had 86k)
with A8o. He was up against AK but rivered an 8. That is the only read I
have on him, since I was not at his table for most of the tourney.
I get AKo UTG. I raise to 40k. This player to my left says "why you want
to do me like that?", seems to agonize for awhile, then says "I call the
40" and pushes out 40k, then says "I'm all in." The dealer says "I'm
sorry, you already said call." The call obviously stands. I have 90k
left, this other player has about 75k. Everyone else folds. The flop
comes 356 all spades (I have the Ks). What do I do here? What would you
do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
spade.
We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:51:15
From: number6
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>What do I do here? What would you
> do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> spade.
>
> We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
>
as someone who plays for about 1 % the stakes you do ... I'll agree
with your laydown wholeheartedly ... He pushed you out ...not with a
bluff but with a dumb overbet ... so what ... You know now that a check
raise will get you a bundle the next time with the right hand ...
Would you have called his initial all in if he did it right ??? I think
so ... even knowing only a little of his history ... but if you folded
then not willing to risk your spot for a little more than a coin flip
... again ... so what ... even at the high blinds you have plenty of
time ... i'd hope to be heads up against this guy at the end if there
were no chop ...
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 19:31:32
From: number6
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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Nick Wool wrote:
> Blinds 5/10K, he had 90 K left in his stack....should be 95K in the pot if
> neither of them were in the blinds....He doesnt really have that much time with
> an M of 6.
>
He was chip leader ... the others have so much less time ... many of
them are in a crap shoot already ...
He has time ... and the others will be asking him for the chop ... not
the other way around ...
No need to risk that postion ...
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Date: 12 Dec
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 12 2006 3:31 AM, number6 wrote:
> Nick Wool wrote:
> > Blinds 5/10K, he had 90 K left in his stack....should be 95K in the pot if
> > neither of them were in the blinds....He doesnt really have that much time
> > with
> > an M of 6.
> >
>
> He was chip leader ... the others have so much less time ... many of
> them are in a crap shoot already ...
>
> He has time ... and the others will be asking him for the chop ... not
> the other way around ...
> No need to risk that postion ...
Ignoring the fact that he may not or may not be the CL, the OP seem a bit muddle
on that score. The problem is that he will no longer be the CL if he mucks
after putting in over 40% of his stack preflop, and the pot is now as big as his
stack. Plus he had very good outs, if he wasnt actually ahead already.
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Date: 11 Dec 21:59:42
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 11 2006 9:51 PM, number6 wrote:
> Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> >What do I do here? What would you
> > do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> > can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> > spade.
> >
> > We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
> >
> as someone who plays for about 1 % the stakes you do ... I'll agree
> with your laydown wholeheartedly ... He pushed you out ...not with a
> bluff but with a dumb overbet ... so what ... You know now that a check
> raise will get you a bundle the next time with the right hand ...
> Would you have called his initial all in if he did it right ??? I think
> so ... even knowing only a little of his history ... but if you folded
> then not willing to risk your spot for a little more than a coin flip
> .... again ... so what ... even at the high blinds you have plenty of
> time ... i'd hope to be heads up against this guy at the end if there
> were no chop ...
Blinds 5/10K, he had 90 K left in his stack....should be 95K in the pot if
neither of them were in the blinds....He doesnt really have that much time with
an M of 6.
And with these blinds, its hard to check-raise and get a bundle.
The fold may be right if he is playing for a level 5 way chop and waiting for
the shorties to bust, but not in a normal top heavy prize structure.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 14:26:05
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 11 2006 1:59 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
> On Dec 11 2006 9:51 PM, number6 wrote:
>
> > Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> > >What do I do here? What would you
> > > do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> > > can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> > > spade.
> > >
> > > We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
> > >
> > as someone who plays for about 1 % the stakes you do ... I'll agree
> > with your laydown wholeheartedly ... He pushed you out ...not with a
> > bluff but with a dumb overbet ... so what ... You know now that a check
> > raise will get you a bundle the next time with the right hand ...
> > Would you have called his initial all in if he did it right ??? I think
> > so ... even knowing only a little of his history ... but if you folded
> > then not willing to risk your spot for a little more than a coin flip
> > .... again ... so what ... even at the high blinds you have plenty of
> > time ... i'd hope to be heads up against this guy at the end if there
> > were no chop ...
>
> Blinds 5/10K, he had 90 K left in his stack....should be 95K in the pot if
> neither of them were in the blinds....He doesnt really have that much time
with
> an M of 6.
>
> And with these blinds, its hard to check-raise and get a bundle.
>
> The fold may be right if he is playing for a level 5 way chop and waiting for
> the shorties to bust, but not in a normal top heavy prize structure.
FWIW, I probably would have folded to an all-in reraise preflop here. I'm
pretty sure I can outplay this guy, even with only 9 BB left. I folded JJ
to a preflop push a few hands later, but someone else called, and I would
have gotten smoked by the KK that pushed.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 11 Dec 23:01:22
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 11 2006 10:26 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> On Dec 11 2006 1:59 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
>
> > On Dec 11 2006 9:51 PM, number6 wrote:
> >
> > > Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> > > >What do I do here? What would you
> > > > do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> > > > can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> > > > spade.
> > > >
> > > > We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
> > > >
> > > as someone who plays for about 1 % the stakes you do ... I'll agree
> > > with your laydown wholeheartedly ... He pushed you out ...not with a
> > > bluff but with a dumb overbet ... so what ... You know now that a check
> > > raise will get you a bundle the next time with the right hand ...
> > > Would you have called his initial all in if he did it right ??? I think
> > > so ... even knowing only a little of his history ... but if you folded
> > > then not willing to risk your spot for a little more than a coin flip
> > > .... again ... so what ... even at the high blinds you have plenty of
> > > time ... i'd hope to be heads up against this guy at the end if there
> > > were no chop ...
> >
> > Blinds 5/10K, he had 90 K left in his stack....should be 95K in the pot if
> > neither of them were in the blinds....He doesnt really have that much time
> with
> > an M of 6.
> >
> > And with these blinds, its hard to check-raise and get a bundle.
> >
> > The fold may be right if he is playing for a level 5 way chop and waiting
> > for
> > the shorties to bust, but not in a normal top heavy prize structure.
>
> FWIW, I probably would have folded to an all-in reraise preflop here. I'm
> pretty sure I can outplay this guy, even with only 9 BB left. I folded JJ
> to a preflop push a few hands later, but someone else called, and I would
> have gotten smoked by the KK that pushed.
>
>
No disrespect, but I think to outplay someone, you'd need a much deeper stack
than 9BBs....I would actually fancy my chances against anyone, Dpyle, Phil Ivey,
Harrison, even our great Russ, in a tourney if the stacks are 9BBs.
When stacks get this shallow, a lot of decisions are automatic, and it really
does become a crapshoot.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 15:11:25
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 11 2006 3:01 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
> On Dec 11 2006 10:26 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > On Dec 11 2006 1:59 PM, Nick Wool wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 11 2006 9:51 PM, number6 wrote:
> > >
> > > > Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> > > > >What do I do here? What would you
> > > > > do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> > > > > can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up
AQ, no
> > > > > spade.
> > > > >
> > > > > We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
> > > > >
> > > > as someone who plays for about 1 % the stakes you do ... I'll agree
> > > > with your laydown wholeheartedly ... He pushed you out ...not with a
> > > > bluff but with a dumb overbet ... so what ... You know now that a check
> > > > raise will get you a bundle the next time with the right hand ...
> > > > Would you have called his initial all in if he did it right ??? I think
> > > > so ... even knowing only a little of his history ... but if you folded
> > > > then not willing to risk your spot for a little more than a coin flip
> > > > .... again ... so what ... even at the high blinds you have plenty of
> > > > time ... i'd hope to be heads up against this guy at the end if there
> > > > were no chop ...
> > >
> > > Blinds 5/10K, he had 90 K left in his stack....should be 95K in the pot
if
> > > neither of them were in the blinds....He doesnt really have that much
time
> > with
> > > an M of 6.
> > >
> > > And with these blinds, its hard to check-raise and get a bundle.
> > >
> > > The fold may be right if he is playing for a level 5 way chop and waiting
> > > for
> > > the shorties to bust, but not in a normal top heavy prize structure.
> >
> > FWIW, I probably would have folded to an all-in reraise preflop here. I'm
> > pretty sure I can outplay this guy, even with only 9 BB left. I folded JJ
> > to a preflop push a few hands later, but someone else called, and I would
> > have gotten smoked by the KK that pushed.
> >
> >
>
> No disrespect, but I think to outplay someone, you'd need a much deeper stack
> than 9BBs....I would actually fancy my chances against anyone, Dpyle, Phil
Ivey,
> Harrison, even our great Russ, in a tourney if the stacks are 9BBs.
>
> When stacks get this shallow, a lot of decisions are automatic, and it really
> does become a crapshoot.
Well, you did notice that when I was CL with 130k that was only 13 BBs,
and the blinds were about to double again to 10k/20k. Hence, the decision
to play for a chop after the elimination of the short stack.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:44:43
From: johnny T
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> I get AKo UTG. I raise to 40k. This player to my left says "why you want
> to do me like that?", seems to agonize for awhile, then says "I call the
> 40" and pushes out 40k, then says "I'm all in." The dealer says "I'm
> sorry, you already said call." The call obviously stands. I have 90k
> left, this other player has about 75k. Everyone else folds. The flop
> comes 356 all spades (I have the Ks). What do I do here? What would you
> do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> spade.
Ok, besides the part where you claim to be CL yet he has more, but in
the end he has less... It would be bad to make a call or play here as
you don't know where you are and the risks are very real while the
shortstacks are all in.
(And I don't know what is up with Pechanga, it is YOUR money, not
theirs. If you y'all agree to change the rules/payout the end, you
should be able to).
But really... I am not playing until I get to the button. (Do what you
have to, to make it look like you are making decisions). Position is
VERY VERY important at this stage, and you want to have as much control
as possible, and you want other folks to impale themselves on other
players (especially if you are chopping evenly down the road a bit).
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:54:31
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 11 2006 1:44 PM, johnny T wrote:
> Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > I get AKo UTG. I raise to 40k. This player to my left says "why you want
> > to do me like that?", seems to agonize for awhile, then says "I call the
> > 40" and pushes out 40k, then says "I'm all in." The dealer says "I'm
> > sorry, you already said call." The call obviously stands. I have 90k
> > left, this other player has about 75k. Everyone else folds. The flop
> > comes 356 all spades (I have the Ks). What do I do here? What would you
> > do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> > can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> > spade.
>
> Ok, besides the part where you claim to be CL yet he has more, but in
> the end he has less... It would be bad to make a call or play here as
> you don't know where you are and the risks are very real while the
> shortstacks are all in.
No no, I said he came to the final table as CL, but it changed over the
course of the first few hands, and I was now the CL. Also, the shorties
were not all in on this hand, but would be very soon.
>
> (And I don't know what is up with Pechanga, it is YOUR money, not
> theirs. If you y'all agree to change the rules/payout the end, you
> should be able to).
Yeah, they don't want to make work for themselves, so they refuse to even
discuss anything but an even chop.
>
> But really... I am not playing until I get to the button. (Do what you
> have to, to make it look like you are making decisions). Position is
> VERY VERY important at this stage, and you want to have as much control
> as possible, and you want other folks to impale themselves on other
> players (especially if you are chopping evenly down the road a bit).
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 14:35:21
From: Marc M
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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"Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster" <ae2dad2@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:nl0154xm91.ln2@recgroups.com...
be able to).
>
> Yeah, they don't want to make work for themselves, so they refuse to even
> discuss anything but an even chop.
>
That's just silly. No chip-chop = no deal if I have a lot more chips than
pretty much anyone at the table. That said, I've only played one tournament
at Pechanga before and busted out early.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 14:26:18
From: johnny T
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> No no, I said he came to the final table as CL, but it changed over the
> course of the first few hands, and I was now the CL. Also, the shorties
> were not all in on this hand, but would be very soon.
Ok (much more careful reading of the prose, I think I got caught up with
the timing... I got UTG, I got stack sizes, I got even chop, I got M),
like I said, not really that important. But since you were NOT that
big a chip leader... *I* still would have ducked until I have position
and started playing from there.
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 02:12:41
From: ben carr
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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I think you can call him here. First of all you have the draw and
possibly two overcards.Thats not bad, and you might be in the lead even
against QQ. His actions of acting weak and indecisive indicate strength.
He at least likes his hand. With a flop that doesnt seem to help him you
are only a big dog to AA or KK. Even then you might have a good draw. If
you lose you still have more than the shortstacks combined and are
looking at a table that wants to chop. If you call and win the hand you
are in postition to take over that table.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:39:41
From: phlash74
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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On Dec 11, 12:35 pm, "Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster"
<ae2d...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> Situation: Pechanga tourney. At final table, all ten remain. I am CL
> with 130k, but blinds are already 5k/10k. Chop has been suggested, but
> Pechanga will only chop evenly, and there are three severely short stacked
> (2k, 4k, 7k). Everyone agreed to the chop except me. I flat out said I
> would CONSIDER it after the 3 shorties were gone.
>
> Player to my left is (according to him) playing his first live tourney
> ever. He has made a number of basic betting mistakes, which has lead us
> to believe he is telling the truth. He had reached the final table with a
> bigger stack than I had by calling an all-in for 80k (when he had 86k)
> with A8o. He was up against AK but rivered an 8. That is the only read I
> have on him, since I was not at his table for most of the tourney.
>
> I get AKo UTG. I raise to 40k. This player to my left says "why you want
> to do me like that?", seems to agonize for awhile, then says "I call the
> 40" and pushes out 40k, then says "I'm all in." The dealer says "I'm
> sorry, you already said call." The call obviously stands. I have 90k
> left, this other player has about 75k. Everyone else folds. The flop
> comes 356 all spades (I have the Ks). What do I do here? What would you
> do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> spade.
>
> We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
>
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com
Tough one. I'd almost have to put him on a middle pair or AQ/AJ with
his comments before the flop, but he was willing to go with his hand.
Would you have called if he had just pushed rather than string betting?
After his call, there's 95K in the pot, I'd almost feel compelled to
push with a spade and two overs on that flop. You probably have plenty
of outs against whatever he has that beats you (except of course AsAx),
and might get him to fold 99 or the like, although probably not. Of
course, if I had pushed, he would have called with the AQ and hit one
of his two outs ;)
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Date: 11 Dec 21:19:22
From: redriverr
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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I think you made a very reasonable laydown. You missed the flop. As a "str8
forward" type player showing strength pre-flop, You give him credit for a hand.
He has position. You have already stated you are playing to chop '5-handed.'
It's like playing a super-sat for the main event. You maximize by avoiding
bust-out before you get one of the seats. You are playing to allow the shortie
to go out or chip up.
On Dec 11 2006 2:35 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> Situation: Pechanga tourney. At final table, all ten remain. I am CL
> with 130k, but blinds are already 5k/10k. Chop has been suggested, but
> Pechanga will only chop evenly, and there are three severely short stacked
> (2k, 4k, 7k). Everyone agreed to the chop except me. I flat out said I
> would CONSIDER it after the 3 shorties were gone.
>
> Player to my left is (according to him) playing his first live tourney
> ever. He has made a number of basic betting mistakes, which has lead us
> to believe he is telling the truth. He had reached the final table with a
> bigger stack than I had by calling an all-in for 80k (when he had 86k)
> with A8o. He was up against AK but rivered an 8. That is the only read I
> have on him, since I was not at his table for most of the tourney.
>
> I get AKo UTG. I raise to 40k. This player to my left says "why you want
> to do me like that?", seems to agonize for awhile, then says "I call the
> 40" and pushes out 40k, then says "I'm all in." The dealer says "I'm
> sorry, you already said call." The call obviously stands. I have 90k
> left, this other player has about 75k. Everyone else folds. The flop
> comes 356 all spades (I have the Ks). What do I do here? What would you
> do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> spade.
>
> We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
>
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 11 Dec 21:07:49
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
|
On Dec 11 2006 8:35 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> Situation: Pechanga tourney. At final table, all ten remain. I am CL
> with 130k, but blinds are already 5k/10k. Chop has been suggested, but
> Pechanga will only chop evenly, and there are three severely short stacked
> (2k, 4k, 7k). Everyone agreed to the chop except me. I flat out said I
> would CONSIDER it after the 3 shorties were gone.
>
> Player to my left is (according to him) playing his first live tourney
> ever. He has made a number of basic betting mistakes, which has lead us
> to believe he is telling the truth. He had reached the final table with a
> bigger stack than I had by calling an all-in for 80k (when he had 86k)
> with A8o. He was up against AK but rivered an 8. That is the only read I
> have on him, since I was not at his table for most of the tourney.
>
> I get AKo UTG. I raise to 40k. This player to my left says "why you want
> to do me like that?", seems to agonize for awhile, then says "I call the
> 40" and pushes out 40k, then says "I'm all in." The dealer says "I'm
> sorry, you already said call." The call obviously stands. I have 90k
> left, this other player has about 75k. Everyone else folds. The flop
> comes 356 all spades (I have the Ks). What do I do here? What would you
> do? I checked, he immediately pushed. I thought for a bit and said "I
> can't call" and showed my AK and folded. He immediately turned up AQ, no
> spade.
>
> We DID end up chopping 5 ways.
>
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
No spades, probably the right action....with 2 overs and the 2nd nut flush draw,
the large pot, and the high blinds, an very easy push or an easy check
call...though I would prefer the push...
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:14:02
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
|
> No spades, probably the right action....with 2 overs and the 2nd nut flush
draw,
> the large pot, and the high blinds, an very easy push or an easy check
> call...though I would prefer the push...
Do you mean I should have pushed? I'm a bit confused. I didn't want to
risk virtually my whole tourney on a missed AK when I knew for sure that
there would be a chop. Without stating the buy-in for the tourney, I will
state that the 5 way chop netted each of us 20x our buy-in.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 11 Dec 21:29:16
From: Nick Wool
Subject: Re: Interesting live tourney decision, comments?
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I suppose the best action would depend on the payout structure, but in a normal
top heavy structure, I would certainly play for 1st and take a chance by pushing
here, or a trap check-call....you are at worse evens to win here, and could be
miles ahead...The only hand you really dont want to see is AK with the A spade
or AA with the spades, which I think is unlikly. If the guy flopped the
flush...well, you got to bust sometimes...:-)
By checking with the intention of folding, you are inviting him to steal the
pot...but yes, if you are playing until the shorties are out then chop, I cant
fault t he weak-tight play.
On Dec 11 2006 9:14 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> > No spades, probably the right action....with 2 overs and the 2nd nut flush
> draw,
> > the large pot, and the high blinds, an very easy push or an easy check
> > call...though I would prefer the push...
>
> Do you mean I should have pushed? I'm a bit confused. I didn't want to
> risk virtually my whole tourney on a missed AK when I knew for sure that
> there would be a chop. Without stating the buy-in for the tourney, I will
> state that the 5 way chop netted each of us 20x our buy-in.
>
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
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