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Date: 28 Nov 2006 16:59:15
From: GH
Subject: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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Okay, I'm playing at FT in a low-stakes (.10/.25, $25 max buy-in) NLHE
game and the following hand came up (I am gr810r):
Full Tilt Poker Game #1313813593: Table Fort Apache - $0.10/$0.25 - No
Limit Hold'em - 14:19:48 ET - 2006/11/27
Seat 1: JaggedRock ($11.65)
Seat 2: mehondo ($24)
Seat 3: gr810r ($39.90)
Seat 4: ManJose ($0), is sitting out
Seat 5: Reed4GG ($20)
Seat 6: Fla_Flats ($19.60)
Seat 7: cormacc ($23.65)
Seat 8: PapaBurnash ($25.95)
Seat 9: Br1ckWa11 ($24.75)
Br1ckWa11 posts the small blind of $0.10
JaggedRock posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gr810r [Ah Jh]
mehondo folds
gr810r raises to $0.75
Fla_Flats folds
cormacc folds
PapaBurnash folds
Br1ckWa11 folds
JaggedRock calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [6s 9s Ad]
JaggedRock checks
gr810r bets $1
JaggedRock calls $1
*** TURN *** [6s 9s Ad] [2c]
JaggedRock bets $3
gr810r calls $3
*** RIVER *** [6s 9s Ad 2c] [7s]
JaggedRock bets $6.90, and is all in
gr810r calls $6.90
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JaggedRock shows [Ts As] (a flush, Ace high)
gr810r mucks
JaggedRock wins the pot ($22.25) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $23.40
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Date: 28 Nov 17:57:44
From: freakinfoldalready
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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i think you could have dumped it on the turn and felt ok. Definately on the
river with 4 flush cards out there. JMO
On Nov 28 2006 11:59 AM, GH wrote:
> Okay, I'm playing at FT in a low-stakes (.10/.25, $25 max buy-in) NLHE
> game and the following hand came up (I am gr810r):
>
> Full Tilt Poker Game #1313813593: Table Fort Apache - $0.10/$0.25 - No
> Limit Hold'em - 14:19:48 ET - 2006/11/27
> Seat 1: JaggedRock ($11.65)
> Seat 2: mehondo ($24)
> Seat 3: gr810r ($39.90)
> Seat 4: ManJose ($0), is sitting out
> Seat 5: Reed4GG ($20)
> Seat 6: Fla_Flats ($19.60)
> Seat 7: cormacc ($23.65)
> Seat 8: PapaBurnash ($25.95)
> Seat 9: Br1ckWa11 ($24.75)
> Br1ckWa11 posts the small blind of $0.10
> JaggedRock posts the big blind of $0.25
> The button is in seat #8
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to gr810r [Ah Jh]
> mehondo folds
> gr810r raises to $0.75
> Fla_Flats folds
> cormacc folds
> PapaBurnash folds
> Br1ckWa11 folds
> JaggedRock calls $0.50
> *** FLOP *** [6s 9s Ad]
> JaggedRock checks
> gr810r bets $1
> JaggedRock calls $1
> *** TURN *** [6s 9s Ad] [2c]
> JaggedRock bets $3
> gr810r calls $3
> *** RIVER *** [6s 9s Ad 2c] [7s]
> JaggedRock bets $6.90, and is all in
> gr810r calls $6.90
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> JaggedRock shows [Ts As] (a flush, Ace high)
> gr810r mucks
> JaggedRock wins the pot ($22.25) with a flush, Ace high
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot $23.40
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 20:35:09
From: GH
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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Well, there were only three flush cards out, but I get your point.
I thought he might have a better A than I did, although if he did, he
might have reraised on the flop to end the hand rather than play it out
of position, so I wasn't too confident about that read.
He also could have been leading out with a strong draw, although it
seemed more likely he would have done that on the flop, to try to slow
me down, especially with the A flopping, rather than the turn. I
suppose he was making a value bet with top pair and the nut flush draw,
but again, I would have thought he'd have bet or even raised on the
flop.
On the turn, I figured I'd call him and see what flopped, and on the
river, I figured the pot was too large to fold it, especially on a bet
that could have been a last attempt at a steal before re-loading, and
also because I didn't really put him on the flush draw. Obviously I was
mistaken about that.
GH
freakinfoldalready wrote:
>
> i think you could have dumped it on the turn and felt ok. Definately
> on the river with 4 flush cards out there. JMO
>
>
> On Nov 28 2006 11:59 AM, GH wrote:
>
>> Okay, I'm playing at FT in a low-stakes (.10/.25, $25 max buy-in)
>> NLHE game and the following hand came up (I am gr810r):
>>
>> Full Tilt Poker Game #1313813593: Table Fort Apache - $0.10/$0.25 -
>> No Limit Hold'em - 14:19:48 ET - 2006/11/27
>> Seat 1: JaggedRock ($11.65)
>> Seat 2: mehondo ($24)
>> Seat 3: gr810r ($39.90)
>> Seat 4: ManJose ($0), is sitting out
>> Seat 5: Reed4GG ($20)
>> Seat 6: Fla_Flats ($19.60)
>> Seat 7: cormacc ($23.65)
>> Seat 8: PapaBurnash ($25.95)
>> Seat 9: Br1ckWa11 ($24.75)
>> Br1ckWa11 posts the small blind of $0.10
>> JaggedRock posts the big blind of $0.25
>> The button is in seat #8
>> *** HOLE CARDS ***
>> Dealt to gr810r [Ah Jh]
>> mehondo folds
>> gr810r raises to $0.75
>> Fla_Flats folds
>> cormacc folds
>> PapaBurnash folds
>> Br1ckWa11 folds
>> JaggedRock calls $0.50
>> *** FLOP *** [6s 9s Ad]
>> JaggedRock checks
>> gr810r bets $1
>> JaggedRock calls $1
>> *** TURN *** [6s 9s Ad] [2c]
>> JaggedRock bets $3
>> gr810r calls $3
>> *** RIVER *** [6s 9s Ad 2c] [7s]
>> JaggedRock bets $6.90, and is all in
>> gr810r calls $6.90
>> *** SHOW DOWN ***
>> JaggedRock shows [Ts As] (a flush, Ace high)
>> gr810r mucks
>> JaggedRock wins the pot ($22.25) with a flush, Ace high
>> *** SUMMARY ***
>> Total pot $23.40
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 05:17:02
From: Palooka
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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"GH" <nobody@nowhere.com > wrote in message
news:Xns98897A02D1CA7gr810rcomcastnet@130.133.1.4...
> Okay, I'm playing at FT in a low-stakes (.10/.25, $25 max buy-in) NLHE
> game and the following hand came up (I am gr810r):
>
> Full Tilt Poker Game #1313813593: Table Fort Apache - $0.10/$0.25 - No
> Limit Hold'em - 14:19:48 ET - 2006/11/27
> Seat 1: JaggedRock ($11.65)
> Seat 2: mehondo ($24)
> Seat 3: gr810r ($39.90)
> Seat 4: ManJose ($0), is sitting out
> Seat 5: Reed4GG ($20)
> Seat 6: Fla_Flats ($19.60)
> Seat 7: cormacc ($23.65)
> Seat 8: PapaBurnash ($25.95)
> Seat 9: Br1ckWa11 ($24.75)
> Br1ckWa11 posts the small blind of $0.10
> JaggedRock posts the big blind of $0.25
> The button is in seat #8
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to gr810r [Ah Jh]
> mehondo folds
> gr810r raises to $0.75
> Fla_Flats folds
> cormacc folds
> PapaBurnash folds
> Br1ckWa11 folds
> JaggedRock calls $0.50
> *** FLOP *** [6s 9s Ad]
> JaggedRock checks
> gr810r bets $1
> JaggedRock calls $1
> *** TURN *** [6s 9s Ad] [2c]
> JaggedRock bets $3
> gr810r calls $3
> *** RIVER *** [6s 9s Ad 2c] [7s]
> JaggedRock bets $6.90, and is all in
> gr810r calls $6.90
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> JaggedRock shows [Ts As] (a flush, Ace high)
> gr810r mucks
> JaggedRock wins the pot ($22.25) with a flush, Ace high
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot $23.40
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 17:13:34
From: GH
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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Palooka wrote:
> 1. Not sure I like playing at all with AJ in EP preflop. Doubtless
> some will say this is too tight, though.
I sometimes raise with it in ep, sometimes limp.
> 2. However, at this level, with the hand as played, I would bet pot on
> the flop, and push on the turn. I think you have to assume you are
> ahead, and up against a flush draw. If you are scared of a bigger Ace,
> go back to point 1.
Good points.
Question: You say, "at this level". How would the play go at other
levels?
And here's another question for anyone: When I raise preflop, I often
make a continuation bet on the flop of somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 pot
no matter what flops -- a pretty standard play. I figure if I do that
most of the time, it's harder for opponents to figure out whether I've
hit the flop or not.
On the other hand, I sometimes would like to check it when I've flopped
a monster, but I figure that people will have seen me bet the flop so
often after I've raised that they'll be suspicious if I don't bet it
this time. Should I check more even if I hit the flop? If I hit top
pair on the flop, I want to protect it, so I don't like checking.
And I also reason that if I were to make a pot-sized bet, when I usually
don't bet that big, they'll read it for weakness (which it often is in
others, I find) and play back at me -- which sometimes may be good,
sometimes bad. But when I have a big hand, I'm afraid to make a pot-
sized bet for fear of driving out callers. So I end up making my
standard 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet most of the time.
Should I vary my bets more, trying not to correlate the size of the bet
with the strength of the hand? I know mixing it up is a good thing.
GH
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Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:13:57
From: Dr Zen
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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On 29 Nov 2006 17:13:34 GMT, GH <nobody@nowhere.com > wrote:
>Palooka wrote:
>
>> 1. Not sure I like playing at all with AJ in EP preflop. Doubtless
>> some will say this is too tight, though.
>
>I sometimes raise with it in ep, sometimes limp.
>
>> 2. However, at this level, with the hand as played, I would bet pot on
>> the flop, and push on the turn. I think you have to assume you are
>> ahead, and up against a flush draw. If you are scared of a bigger Ace,
>> go back to point 1.
>
>Good points.
>
>Question: You say, "at this level". How would the play go at other
>levels?
>
Probably the same. It's just a way to condescend to you.
>And here's another question for anyone: When I raise preflop, I often
>make a continuation bet on the flop of somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 pot
>no matter what flops -- a pretty standard play.
Not into a crowd.
> I figure if I do that
>most of the time, it's harder for opponents to figure out whether I've
>hit the flop or not.
>
Yes, that's the idea.
>On the other hand, I sometimes would like to check it when I've flopped
>a monster, but I figure that people will have seen me bet the flop so
>often after I've raised that they'll be suspicious if I don't bet it
>this time. Should I check more even if I hit the flop? If I hit top
>pair on the flop, I want to protect it, so I don't like checking.
>
Do you not see how your last two paras contradict one another? You are
cbetting so that no one knows that you missed. But you want to check
when you hit! Do that and you'll become ultrareadable and your cbets
will be picked off by players with absolutely nothing.
Here's the thing. If you have had to showdown a hand that you cbetted
but missed, you can then bet out with a monster the same amount that
you would have cbetted had you missed. Players will be inclined to
call you with all sorts of shit. You might even get raised, which you
will love.
If you raised preflop and then check, a lot of players will interpret
that as saying "I have a strong hand" and won't give you action.
That's something to bear in mind.
>And I also reason that if I were to make a pot-sized bet, when I usually
>don't bet that big, they'll read it for weakness (which it often is in
>others, I find) and play back at me -- which sometimes may be good,
>sometimes bad.
Do potsized bets imply weakness? On the flop I think they usually say
"I have top pair and do not want you to draw to your flush" because
players so often misinterpret a halfpot bet as giving them the odds to
draw to their flushes and OESDs (sometimes they will get the flush and
you will pay them off, so they will have been correct to think they
have implied odds, but sometimes you will not, and they won't have)
and the bettor wants to offer much worse odds to the drawer.
> But when I have a big hand, I'm afraid to make a pot-
>sized bet for fear of driving out callers. So I end up making my
>standard 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet most of the time.
>
That seems fine to me. It's player dependent. If you don't think
they'll call a potsized bet with a draw to a secondbest hand, there's
not much point making it. But if they will, well, silly not to take
their money. It also depends though on how I appear to them.
>Should I vary my bets more, trying not to correlate the size of the bet
>with the strength of the hand? I know mixing it up is a good thing.
I think that the idea of betting what you think the market will bear
is a good one. I don't like checking monsters, particularly if I've
raised, unless there's a crowd and I've previously checkfolded a hand
i've raised, because I often will get more from betting and letting
someone raise or call me down.
But it all depends on who you're playing and how you feel you will get
the pot size you want out of them. Sometimes you should check even
quite good hands because you do not want to swell the pot.
--
Dr Zen
King of the wild pixels.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 19:00:14
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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On Nov 28 2006 5:59 PM, GH wrote:
> Okay, I'm playing at FT in a low-stakes (.10/.25, $25 max buy-in) NLHE
> game and the following hand came up (I am gr810r):
>
> Full Tilt Poker Game #1313813593: Table Fort Apache - $0.10/$0.25 - No
> Limit Hold'em - 14:19:48 ET - 2006/11/27
> Seat 1: JaggedRock ($11.65)
> Seat 2: mehondo ($24)
> Seat 3: gr810r ($39.90)
> Seat 4: ManJose ($0), is sitting out
> Seat 5: Reed4GG ($20)
> Seat 6: Fla_Flats ($19.60)
> Seat 7: cormacc ($23.65)
> Seat 8: PapaBurnash ($25.95)
> Seat 9: Br1ckWa11 ($24.75)
> Br1ckWa11 posts the small blind of $0.10
> JaggedRock posts the big blind of $0.25
> The button is in seat #8
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to gr810r [Ah Jh]
> mehondo folds
> gr810r raises to $0.75
> Fla_Flats folds
> cormacc folds
> PapaBurnash folds
> Br1ckWa11 folds
> JaggedRock calls $0.50
> *** FLOP *** [6s 9s Ad]
> JaggedRock checks
> gr810r bets $1
> JaggedRock calls $1
> *** TURN *** [6s 9s Ad] [2c]
> JaggedRock bets $3
> gr810r calls $3
> *** RIVER *** [6s 9s Ad 2c] [7s]
> JaggedRock bets $6.90, and is all in
> gr810r calls $6.90
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> JaggedRock shows [Ts As] (a flush, Ace high)
> gr810r mucks
> JaggedRock wins the pot ($22.25) with a flush, Ace high
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot $23.40
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 16:55:53
From: GH
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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xyious wrote:
> if you call his all in on the river after one of the worst cards shows up
> you should have put him all in on the turn. imho he didn't have enough
> money to make you fold, so you shoulda just put him all in.
Good point.
GH
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 12:55:17
From: WuzYoungOnceToo
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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On Nov 28, 11:57 am, freakinfoldalready <43085...@recpoker.com > wrote:
>
> i think you could have dumped it on the turn and felt ok. Definately on the
> river with 4 flush cards out there. JMO
Does the fact that there were only 3 flush cards change your analysis?
At this level the check-call on the flop makes a flush-draw obvious.
Your betting then was OK, but why the passive call on the turn? What
did you think he had? If you think he's drawing and you have him beat,
make him pay with a big raise. If you think he caught something then
cut your losses and fold (you don't have any kind of exciting draw here
with one card to come.) The call was pointless. When the 3rd spade
fell and Mr. Passive suddenly pushes you should have been able to lay
it down. In short, yes...you were outplayed.
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Date: 28 Nov 2006 22:07:27
From: GH
Subject: Re: Fish Play? (BAHH)
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WuzYoungOnceToo wrote:
> At this level the check-call on the flop makes a flush-draw obvious.
I thought so after the flop, but the bet into me on the turn made me
suspect otherwise.
> Your betting then was OK, but why the passive call on the turn? What
> did you think he had? If you think he's drawing and you have him
> beat, make him pay with a big raise. If you think he caught something
> then cut your losses and fold (you don't have any kind of exciting
> draw here with one card to come.) The call was pointless.
Yes, I see that I should have pumped it or dumped it.
> When the
> 3rd spade fell and Mr. Passive suddenly pushes you should have been
> able to lay it down. In short, yes...you were outplayed.
Thanks, I appreciate the comments.
GH
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