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Date: 27 Nov 20:23:45
From: Stu Ungar Fan
Subject: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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I haven't played limit holdem in probably three years. No limit has been my
thing since it boomed three years ago. Anyway, I sit in on a 20-40 game this
past weekend and here is one of the more interesting hands that I played:
A loose-passive player called from UTG. Folders in between us. Then I raised
with KK (one diamond) from middle position. Everyone folded but the small blind,
a very tight player, reraised. UTG called the reraise and I capped it. Both
players called. I don't think anyone would disagree with my play here. Three of
us see the flop...
Flop: 8-5-3 with 2 diamonds
Both the SB and the UTG checked and I bet. SB checked raised and then UTG
called. I reraised and both called. Question: What do you put the two players on
at this point? I mean, I played it really strong and they both called. However,
SB, who reraised preflop, didn't reraise this time.
Turn: the board paired when another 5 showed up.
They both checked and I bet. Both of them called, almost without hesitation.
Certain flush draw by one of them? Pocket Aces played passively by the tight SB
who reraised pre-flop?
River: 9 of diamonds
Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
folded right away. What should I have done?
What if you were me, what would you do on the river?
Would you have raised? Why?
Would you have just called? Why?
Would you have folded? Why?
What do you put SB on?
I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
http://stuungar.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 22:58:39
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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On Mon, 27 Nov 06 20:23:45 GMT, Stu Ungar Fan <43086535@recpoker.com > wrote:
>Flop: 8-5-3 with 2 diamonds
Whether the 5 is a diamond is mildly important. . .
>Both the SB and the UTG checked and I bet. SB checked raised and then UTG
>called. I reraised and both called. Question: What do you put the two players on
>at this point? I mean, I played it really strong and they both called. However,
>SB, who reraised preflop, didn't reraise this time.
>Turn: the board paired when another 5 showed up.
. . .because it may be relevant to whether it's likely they both have flush
draws or something like middle pair overcard kicker. But it doesn't look like
this card helped anyone.
>They both checked and I bet. Both of them called, almost without hesitation.
>Certain flush draw by one of them? Pocket Aces played passively by the tight SB
>who reraised pre-flop?
>River: 9 of diamonds
>Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
>folded right away. What should I have done?
I call, expecting to be beat, probably by an ace high flush, but maybe by aces
up, or even something freaky like trip 5s or a boat constructed out of a trashy
starting hand. Maybe I'm lucky and it's a smaller overpair or a goofy bluff.
It probably is often enough to make a call profitable. Also, if I haven't
played this guy very much, I want to know what he played this way,
and if he was capable of this kind of action without the flush draw,
or capable of check-raising the flop with a flush draw. That might
justify a call even if the value of it is marginal or slightly negative.
The fact that he's "very tight" seems to make the more bizarre holdings
unlikely, and I can't see many overpairs here less than QQ. It seems
unlikely he's betting that. But you'd have to be pretty sure of your
read to fold here. Check-raising to get money in the pot with a flush
draw, overcards, and two people in the pot is a quite reasonable play,
and then calling the turn instead of raising again also looks like a flush
draw. Then betting out when the flush hits, again pretty straightforward.
But if he's capable of representing that hand with that action, when he
actually doesn't have it, it's worth knowing that. Unless you know he
isn't capable of it, I'd call. And if he did play a flush draw this way on
the flop, knowing that might enable you to get away from him in the
future.
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Date: 28 Nov
From: Stu Ungar Fan
Subject: Results and Analysis
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The pot odds were too good. I called.
He hit his nut flush with AJ believe it or not. My guess as to why this very
tight player reraised pre flop with this weak a hand was that he probably
thought I was trying to isolate the loose-passive UTG player with A-small or
something.
I really thought he had big pocket pair when he raised before the flop. And I
put the UTG caller on the flush draw. Thanks for the responses.
http://stuungar.blogspot.com
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 17:00:49
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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> Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
> folded right away. What should I have done?
>
> What if you were me, what would you do on the river?
>
> Would you have raised? Why?
Nope, what hand can you beat that will call your raise?
> Would you have just called? Why?
Yes, because the SB may have QQ.
> Would you have folded? Why?
Nope, not in limit for 1 bet here.
> What do you put SB on?
I put him on 99 or AA. I do not put him on AQ suited if you are correct
about being super tight. His pre-flop raise out of position with 99 isn't
a play I would make in super-tight mode, but not unheard of. His play on
the flop and turn make sense for an overpair. You have to call though
because there are enough times when the SB has TT, JJ, QQ, and is bluffing
here.
Dean
=============== My Affiliate Links ===============
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 13:28:04
From: Nimrod
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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Knowing that this is a bad beat story, I initially put SB on 88, and
UTG on some kind of Flush Draw, but then after the flush hit and UTG
folded, I put him on a pocket pair, maybe 10-10.
SB would have put UTG on a flush draw, so the river bet makse sense,
since he hoped to get UTG to raise, maybe you follow with a call and
then he re-raises.
Of course he could have done all of this with pocket fives too.
I agree with the others that the river move by you should be a call.
Jamie
http://loadholdem.com
Stu Ungar Fan wrote:
> I haven't played limit holdem in probably three years. No limit has been my
> thing since it boomed three years ago. Anyway, I sit in on a 20-40 game this
> past weekend and here is one of the more interesting hands that I played:
>
> A loose-passive player called from UTG. Folders in between us. Then I raised
> with KK (one diamond) from middle position. Everyone folded but the small blind,
> a very tight player, reraised. UTG called the reraise and I capped it. Both
> players called. I don't think anyone would disagree with my play here. Three of
> us see the flop...
>
> Flop: 8-5-3 with 2 diamonds
>
> Both the SB and the UTG checked and I bet. SB checked raised and then UTG
> called. I reraised and both called. Question: What do you put the two players on
> at this point? I mean, I played it really strong and they both called. However,
> SB, who reraised preflop, didn't reraise this time.
>
> Turn: the board paired when another 5 showed up.
>
> They both checked and I bet. Both of them called, almost without hesitation.
> Certain flush draw by one of them? Pocket Aces played passively by the tight SB
> who reraised pre-flop?
>
> River: 9 of diamonds
>
> Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
> folded right away. What should I have done?
>
> What if you were me, what would you do on the river?
>
> Would you have raised? Why?
> Would you have just called? Why?
> Would you have folded? Why?
>
> What do you put SB on?
>
> I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
> http://stuungar.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 27 Nov 21:12:24
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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>
> What if you were me, what would you do on the river?
I would call and expect to be beat. Probably not AA, because I don't think he
slows down on the flop with AA. QQ/JJ is possible, and he's trying to scare you
out, although I think that's pretty dangerous with the UTG player. 9s or 8s
full is possible too, the first raise could have been to try to isolate you
thinking you had AK and wanting to get the pot heads up. In fact, yeah, I put
the SB on 99 or 88. But I still call just for those times when he shows AKo
with the Ad or QQ.
>
> Would you have raised? Why?
> Would you have just called? Why?
> Would you have folded? Why?
>
> What do you put SB on?
>
> I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
> http://stuungar.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 12:56:27
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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On Nov 27 2006 9:23 PM, Stu Ungar Fan wrote:
> I haven't played limit holdem in probably three years. No limit has been my
> thing since it boomed three years ago. Anyway, I sit in on a 20-40 game this
> past weekend and here is one of the more interesting hands that I played:
>
> A loose-passive player called from UTG. Folders in between us. Then I raised
> with KK (one diamond) from middle position. Everyone folded but the small
blind,
> a very tight player, reraised. UTG called the reraise and I capped it. Both
> players called. I don't think anyone would disagree with my play here. Three
of
> us see the flop...
>
> Flop: 8-5-3 with 2 diamonds
>
> Both the SB and the UTG checked and I bet. SB checked raised and then UTG
> called. I reraised and both called. Question: What do you put the two
players on
> at this point? I mean, I played it really strong and they both called.
However,
> SB, who reraised preflop, didn't reraise this time.
SB 3bet preflop, checkraises flop, either an overpair or AK of diamonds.
the other dude probably has an overpair (99 or TT).
> Turn: the board paired when another 5 showed up.
>
> They both checked and I bet. Both of them called, almost without hesitation.
> Certain flush draw by one of them? Pocket Aces played passively by the tight
SB
> who reraised pre-flop?
doesn't change my initial assesment any.
> River: 9 of diamonds
>
> Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
> folded right away. What should I have done?
>
> What if you were me, what would you do on the river?
i call, AK of diamonds isn't out of the question by the SB.
i don't raise because he's not going to call with any hand you beat. he
might call with queens, and aces, but even queens is unlikely to call here
imho.
> Would you have raised? Why?
> Would you have just called? Why?
> Would you have folded? Why?
>
> What do you put SB on?
AK diamonds.
>
> I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
> http://stuungar.blogspot.com
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 15:50:39
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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> > What do you put SB on?
>
> AK diamonds.
Classic know it all torx. Love it. Keep it up, sparky!
Morphy
http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com
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Date: 27 Nov 21:09:08
From: steve1127
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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> > What do you put SB on?
>
> AK diamonds.
Seems unlikely, since the OP had the K diamonds.
>
> >
> > I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
> > http://stuungar.blogspot.com/
>
>
> -Alexander Knopf
> http://www.xyious.com/?links
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 13:37:17
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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On Nov 27 2006 10:09 PM, steve1127 wrote:
> > > What do you put SB on?
> >
> > AK diamonds.
>
> Seems unlikely, since the OP had the K diamonds.
missed that one.
AQd seems unlikely too tho, but i spose it's possible.
>
> >
> > >
> > > I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
> > > http://stuungar.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > -Alexander Knopf
> > http://www.xyious.com/?links
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 12:35:33
From:
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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Stu Ungar Fan wrote:
>
> Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
> folded right away. What should I have done?
I have no problem with how you played it.
You're getting good pot odds to call the river.
Unless I had a tell or a supertight image at this table, I'd probably
pay off the SB.
If I had a supertight image, it is very likely the SB has AA or AQ of
diamonds for his plays.
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Date: 27 Nov 20:34:22
From: Kincaid
Subject: Re: Confusing 20-40 limit holdem river
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Raising = Stupid
Calling = Sensible because the pot is big and you don't have to be correct too
often to profit here. I think the flush is more likely than aces, but this is a
great card to bluff with if the SB is willing to fire a barrel on such a low
percentage play.
Folding = a disaster for those times when you're ahead.
On Nov 27 2006 12:23 PM, Stu Ungar Fan wrote:
> I haven't played limit holdem in probably three years. No limit has been my
> thing since it boomed three years ago. Anyway, I sit in on a 20-40 game this
> past weekend and here is one of the more interesting hands that I played:
>
> A loose-passive player called from UTG. Folders in between us. Then I raised
> with KK (one diamond) from middle position. Everyone folded but the small
> blind,
> a very tight player, reraised. UTG called the reraise and I capped it. Both
> players called. I don't think anyone would disagree with my play here. Three
> of
> us see the flop...
>
> Flop: 8-5-3 with 2 diamonds
>
> Both the SB and the UTG checked and I bet. SB checked raised and then UTG
> called. I reraised and both called. Question: What do you put the two players
> on
> at this point? I mean, I played it really strong and they both called.
> However,
> SB, who reraised preflop, didn't reraise this time.
>
> Turn: the board paired when another 5 showed up.
>
> They both checked and I bet. Both of them called, almost without hesitation.
> Certain flush draw by one of them? Pocket Aces played passively by the tight
> SB
> who reraised pre-flop?
>
> River: 9 of diamonds
>
> Fuck!!!! This was the last card I wanted to see. The SB immediately bet. UTG
> folded right away. What should I have done?
>
> What if you were me, what would you do on the river?
>
> Would you have raised? Why?
> Would you have just called? Why?
> Would you have folded? Why?
>
> What do you put SB on?
>
> I'll post what I did - along with the results - later.
> http://stuungar.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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