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Main
Date: 16 Dec 2006 20:40:34
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
Discuss
thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
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Date: 17 Dec
From: Vegas Vic
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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In cash games most of the pros I know bring it in with the min every time. They
(almost) never vary.
But in a stud tourney I'm not sure what play is best long term.
On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:51:51
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
complete, then reraise?
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 22:33:16
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 17 2006 6:51 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> complete, then reraise?
that's what i do.
why tell people that you have a reasonably strong hand by bringing in with
a bet ?
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 01:59:40
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:33:16 -0800, "xyious" <a52dfe8@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>On Dec 17 2006 6:51 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>> I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
>> those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
>> you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
>> complete, then reraise?
>that's what i do.
>why tell people that you have a reasonably strong hand by bringing in with
>a bet ?
So they'll fold. There are only a few hands strong enough you really want
to play against the entire table. It also really doesn't conceal the fact that
you have a hand when you call after someone completes.
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:53:35
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 16 2006 11:59 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:33:16 -0800, "xyious" <a52dfe8@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 17 2006 6:51 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> >> I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> >> those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> >> you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> >> complete, then reraise?
>
> >that's what i do.
> >why tell people that you have a reasonably strong hand by bringing in with
> >a bet ?
>
> So they'll fold. There are only a few hands strong enough you really want
> to play against the entire table. It also really doesn't conceal the fact
that
> you have a hand when you call after someone completes.
Your range when you call (or reraise) a completer is a lot wider than when
you open-complete.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 04:08:37
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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This is my thinking too, especially short handed.
On Dec 17 2006 1:33 AM, xyious wrote:
> On Dec 17 2006 6:51 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> > those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> > you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> > complete, then reraise?
>
> that's what i do.
> why tell people that you have a reasonably strong hand by bringing in with
> a bet ?
>
>
> -Alexander Knopf
> http://www.xyious.com/?links
thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:49:19
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 16 2006 10:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
>
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
> >
> > Discuss
> >
> > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
>
> I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> complete, then reraise?
That's one good reason. Also, since you only get one card at a time, it
is much harder to get "outflopped" as in Holdem. Finally, opening for a
completion is very telling about the strength of your hand. In Stud, you
aren't doing it (if you are sane), with a small pair (maybe with an Ace
kicker). Thus, you either have a big pair or are rolled up, which allows
people to play correctly against you. Bad.
When playing live, I don't even look at my holecards if I am the bringin.
I just bring it in and then look when I need to.
Fell
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Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 17 Dec
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 16 2006 11:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
>
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
> >
> > Discuss
> >
> > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
>
> I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> complete, then reraise?
>
The high card is the bring in in Razz. You have only a 2 card hand at best.
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 10:21:46
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 17 2006 12:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
> On Dec 16 2006 11:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> >
> > > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
> > >
> > > Discuss
> > >
> > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
> >
> > I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> > those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> > you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> > complete, then reraise?
> >
>
> The high card is the bring in in Razz. You have only a 2 card hand at best.
>
I thought we were talking about stud. Razz is a totally different matter.
> > ------
> > brewmaster at brewcam dot com
> >
> > "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> > you look at it right" -RH
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
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Date: 17 Dec 20:18:49
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 17 2006 12:21 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> On Dec 17 2006 12:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16 2006 11:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> > >
> > > > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites
> > > > tourney.
> > > >
> > > > Discuss
> > > >
> > > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
> > >
> > > I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> > > those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> > > you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> > > complete, then reraise?
> > >
> >
> > The high card is the bring in in Razz. You have only a 2 card hand at best.
> >
>
> I thought we were talking about stud. Razz is a totally different matter.
Okay. Stud. You have (9s ks) 2s, nobody has an up card bigger than 9 and it's
a tournament with one very short stack at your table and level increases next
hand and you have a decent sized stack.
Bringint it in for the max will have a good chance of getting you heads up with
a player you'll probably bust and if you don't they aren't going to hurt you.
>
> > > ------
> > > brewmaster at brewcam dot com
> > >
> > > "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> > > you look at it right" -RH
> > Gary Carson
> > http://www.garycarson.com/
>
>
> ------
> brewmaster at brewcam dot com
>
> "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> you look at it right" -RH
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 04:10:17
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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What are your thoughts on this in stud8 Gary?
On Dec 17 2006 3:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
> On Dec 16 2006 11:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> >
> > > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
> > >
> > > Discuss
> > >
> > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
> >
> > I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> > those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> > you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> > complete, then reraise?
> >
>
> The high card is the bring in in Razz. You have only a 2 card hand at best.
>
> > ------
> > brewmaster at brewcam dot com
> >
> > "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> > you look at it right" -RH
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
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Date: 17 Dec 14:53:44
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 6:10 AM, pokerchimp wrote:
> What are your thoughts on this in stud8 Gary?
I guess I don't understand the question.
> On Dec 17 2006 3:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16 2006 11:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> > >
> > > > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites
> > > > tourney.
> > > >
> > > > Discuss
> > > >
> > > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
> > >
> > > I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> > > those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> > > you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> > > complete, then reraise?
> > >
> >
> > The high card is the bring in in Razz. You have only a 2 card hand at best.
> >
> > > ------
> > > brewmaster at brewcam dot com
> > >
> > > "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> > > you look at it right" -RH
> > Gary Carson
> > http://www.garycarson.com/
>
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 17 Dec 14:52:54
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 6:10 AM, pokerchimp wrote:
> What are your thoughts on this in stud8 Gary?
> On Dec 17 2006 3:35 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> > On Dec 16 2006 11:51 PM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 16 2006 8:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> > >
> > > > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites
> > > > tourney.
> > > >
> > > > Discuss
> > > >
> > > > thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
> > >
> > > I don't see the problem. I don't play much stud (too boring folding all
> > > those hands) but I don't see why you WOULDN'T bring it in for the raise if
> > > you had a hand. What are you going to do, bring it in, hope for a
> > > complete, then reraise?
> > >
> >
> > The high card is the bring in in Razz. You have only a 2 card hand at best.
> >
> > > ------
> > > brewmaster at brewcam dot com
> > >
> > > "Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
> > > you look at it right" -RH
> > Gary Carson
> > http://www.garycarson.com/
>
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:23:49
From: Omaha Chris
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
There are many occasions where completing the bring-in is a fine play,
especially shorthanded.
C'mon, use your imagination.
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:45:15
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
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On Dec 16 2006 10:23 PM, Omaha Chris wrote:
> pokerchimp wrote:
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
>
> There are many occasions where completing the bring-in is a fine play,
> especially shorthanded.
Shorthanded is simpler more stupid. You are much more likely to get
raised when shorthanded, and the initial pot is much smaller to steal.
Fuck that. Shorthanded would be the worst time to do this, except against
the most tentative of opponents.
> C'mon, use your imagination.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:31:16
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:40:34 -0800, "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com > wrote:
>Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>Discuss
HEE-HAW!
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:01:29
From: Tom Cruise's Ex-Girlfriend's Secret Lover
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
"pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com > wrote in message
news:2bue54x7pq.ln2@recgroups.com...
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
You finished second and they missed the money. That should speak for
itself.
I love it when the bring-in in a razz game completes with a king up. That
is truly a terrible play.
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:38:45
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 6:01 AM, Tom Cruise's Ex-Girlfriend's Secret Lover wrote:
> "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:2bue54x7pq.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> You finished second and they missed the money. That should speak for
> itself.
>
> I love it when the bring-in in a razz game completes with a king up. That
> is truly a terrible play.
i think it's funny winning a hand in razz by bringing it in.
and that's when i almost always fold to a raise after brining in.
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:10:52
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
It does to an extent. I am just wondering what they are thinking, what's
the rationale? Trying to steal the antes? Trying to encourage a reraise?
On Dec 17 2006 12:01 AM, Tom Cruise's Ex-Girlfriend's Secret Lover wrote:
> "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:2bue54x7pq.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> You finished second and they missed the money. That should speak for
> itself.
>
> I love it when the bring-in in a razz game completes with a king up. That
> is truly a terrible play.
thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:43:50
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:10:52 -0800, "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com > wrote:
>It does to an extent. I am just wondering what they are thinking, what's
>the rationale? Trying to steal the antes? Trying to encourage a reraise?
Not that I'm in any position to discuss this game (when I did this it was
just for the hell of it), but I don't see why it would be bad if you thought
you had the best hand, but it wasn't likely to survive against a bunch
of callers. With a really nice hand you might want to sandbag or
slowplay it, but you really wouldn't want to encourage a bunch of
limpers with a good but not great hand.
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Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:52:22
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 6:43 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:10:52 -0800, "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >It does to an extent. I am just wondering what they are thinking, what's
> >the rationale? Trying to steal the antes? Trying to encourage a reraise?
>
> Not that I'm in any position to discuss this game (when I did this it was
> just for the hell of it), but I don't see why it would be bad if you thought
> you had the best hand, but it wasn't likely to survive against a bunch
> of callers. With a really nice hand you might want to sandbag or
> slowplay it, but you really wouldn't want to encourage a bunch of
> limpers with a good but not great hand.
in razz with a king you very likely do not have the best hand, everyone
else at the table would have to have a pair....
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:50:01
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 16 2006 10:52 PM, xyious wrote:
> On Dec 17 2006 6:43 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:10:52 -0800, "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com>
wrote:
> >
> > >It does to an extent. I am just wondering what they are thinking, what's
> > >the rationale? Trying to steal the antes? Trying to encourage a reraise?
> >
> > Not that I'm in any position to discuss this game (when I did this it was
> > just for the hell of it), but I don't see why it would be bad if you
thought
> > you had the best hand, but it wasn't likely to survive against a bunch
> > of callers. With a really nice hand you might want to sandbag or
> > slowplay it, but you really wouldn't want to encourage a bunch of
> > limpers with a good but not great hand.
>
> in razz with a king you very likely do not have the best hand, everyone
> else at the table would have to have a pair....
>
>
> -Alexander Knopf
> http://www.xyious.com/?links
Who the hell is talking about Razz? If we were, Razz would be in the
subject line.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 10:03:14
From: xyious
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 9:50 AM, FellKnight wrote:
> Who the hell is talking about Razz? If we were, Razz would be in the
> subject line.
tom cruise's ex-girlfriend's secret lover brought the discussion to razz
and i was responding to that.
>
> Fell
> --
> Website: www.fellknight.com
> Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
-Alexander Knopf
http://www.xyious.com/?links
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Date: 17 Dec
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 16 2006 11:52 PM, xyious wrote:
> On Dec 17 2006 6:43 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:10:52 -0800, "pokerchimp" wrote:
> >
> > >It does to an extent. I am just wondering what they are thinking, what's
> > >the rationale? Trying to steal the antes? Trying to encourage a reraise?
> >
> > Not that I'm in any position to discuss this game (when I did this it was
> > just for the hell of it), but I don't see why it would be bad if you thought
> > you had the best hand, but it wasn't likely to survive against a bunch
> > of callers. With a really nice hand you might want to sandbag or
> > slowplay it, but you really wouldn't want to encourage a bunch of
> > limpers with a good but not great hand.
>
> in razz with a king you very likely do not have the best hand, everyone
> else at the table would have to have a pair....
>
K(A2) with all other up cards 9 or above is very likely the best hand.
>
> -Alexander Knopf
> http://www.xyious.com/?links
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:06:40
From: Stephen Jacobs
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
"pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com > wrote in message
news:2bue54x7pq.ln2@recgroups.com...
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
>
I should be doing other things, so I'll give you an essay. The short
answer is that it's a very useful tool to have available, but needs to be
used carefully. In other words, when you do it it's fine; when anyone else
does it, maybe it's terrible.
Since the full-bet bring-in is unusual in stud, it will get people's
attention. Do you want people paying attention to you? (I am a very
deceptive stud player, so up to a rather distant point, the more people pay
attention to me, the more likely they are to make mistakes.)
You don't want to shut out marginal hands when you hold a major powerhouse
(set; buried live aces; very live consecutive straight flush draw).
Against a weak assortment of door cards, a full bet bring-in with any live
pair except aces is an option. You aren't defining your hand, except as
playable. Depending on your reads, you may be able to get a lot of
information about opponents' hands. Against one overpair, as long as
you're willing to get out on fourth or fifth if things go badly, you aren't
costing yourself much. And small pairs play badly against multiple fishy
draws. There's quite a good chance, since you have low card showing, that
you'll have good position on fourth.
Another hand that you can do this with is an ace-high flush draw
(especially with 2 overcards). You shouldn't mind winning the pot early,
since you're starting with little, and you have good back-up if you get
played with.
Specifically in tournament situations, a big stack ought to be trying the
occasional weak steal. Bring-in is as good a position as any for this,
especially if the big door cards are close to you on either side (for a big
stack, it's just peachy if you can provoke a big confrontation between
smaller stacks).
Again in tournament, if the table is at all short, a small stack may find a
stab at the antes almost mandatory with any pair; maybe even with a live
ace (or when the only big doorcard is an ace and you have A-big).
Put all of these together and it still doesn't make a full bring-in a common
move. People who don't know you, seeing it, will probably put you on a big
pair, you'll know that, and they'll probably be wrong.
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 18:12:38
From: Smorgass Bored
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
> "pokerchimp" wrote in message
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
And sometimes, a peson that seldom folds has outdrawn you on EVERY hand and
you've watched your chips dwindle and you're the short stack and you have the
'bring in' the majority of the time and you didn't want to play a game that you
HATE anyway and you just want it to end and raising the bring-in seems like a
good idea, so that you can go do something else that you like better and you
just want to tear up the cards and Kill everyone at the table and then eat cake
& ice cream..... then go to bed and dream about playing poker and WINNING.
Doug
( I'm OK, you're OK ...... How To Win Friends And Influence People.... but more
like "The Peter Principle" )
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 02:35:21
From: Omaha Chris
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
> I should be doing other things, so I'll give you an essay. The short
> answer is that it's a very useful tool to have available, but needs to be
> used carefully.
> *snip examples*
Thank you.
I honestly don't see why bringing it in with a complete bet is such a
monumentally shocking/universally bad move.
|
| |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 06:17:10
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
Nothing to discuss. Either never do it or always do it, otherwise
you've advertised whether or not you have a good hand. If you always do
it, you waste a lot of money. So never do it.
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:24:32
From: J Gibby
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
Bill Ricardi wrote:
> By my calculations, the "probablity" is that you're drinking heavily
> for the unaccounted 40 percent of the time!
>
If there actually were an unaccounted 40 percent, he would probably be
using the doubling cube.
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 07:25:47
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
Gary Carson wrote:
> On Dec 17 2006 8:17 AM, Bill Ricardi wrote:
> So if I do it 50% of the time when I have a good hand and 10% of the time when I
> don't have a good hand, what's the probablity that I have a good hand when I
> bring it in for a full bet?
By my calculations, the "probablity" is that you're drinking heavily
for the unaccounted 40 percent of the time!
You go ahead and do it your way. Tell me how much you lose. Cheers!
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 18:46:46
From: Bill Ricardi
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
Gary Carson wrote:
> > You go ahead and do it your way. Tell me how much you lose. Cheers!
>
> I didn't know you where that weak with that arithmetic stuff.
I'm just that good at Stud.
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Dec 20:20:34
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 9:25 AM, Bill Ricardi wrote:
> Gary Carson wrote:
> > On Dec 17 2006 8:17 AM, Bill Ricardi wrote:
>
> > So if I do it 50% of the time when I have a good hand and 10% of the time
> > when I
> > don't have a good hand, what's the probablity that I have a good hand when I
> > bring it in for a full bet?
>
> By my calculations, the "probablity" is that you're drinking heavily
> for the unaccounted 40 percent of the time!
>
> You go ahead and do it your way. Tell me how much you lose. Cheers!
I didn't know you where that weak with that arithmetic stuff.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 14:56:20
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 8:17 AM, Bill Ricardi wrote:
> pokerchimp wrote:
> > Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
> >
> > Discuss
>
>
> Nothing to discuss. Either never do it or always do it, otherwise
> you've advertised whether or not you have a good hand. If you always do
> it, you waste a lot of money. So never do it.
So if I do it 50% of the time when I have a good hand and 10% of the time when I
don't have a good hand, what's the probablity that I have a good hand when I
bring it in for a full bet?
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:39:58
From: Casey
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
Gary Carson wrote:
> So if I do it 50% of the time when I have a good hand and 10% of the time when I
> don't have a good hand, what's the probablity that I have a good hand when I
> bring it in for a full bet?
For a 3 variable problem, we need 3 equations, no? So I believe that
we lack a bit of necessary information, such as the rate at which you
receive good hands.
Or I could misunderstand.
A simple answer is that if you receive a 'good' hand at a rate of 16%
(of total hands) then the probability that you have a good hand when
you bring it in for a full bet will be 50%.
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Dec 20:26:53
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 1:39 PM, Casey wrote:
> Gary Carson wrote:
> > So if I do it 50% of the time when I have a good hand and 10% of the time
> > when I
> > don't have a good hand, what's the probablity that I have a good hand when I
> > bring it in for a full bet?
>
> For a 3 variable problem, we need 3 equations, no? So I believe that
> we lack a bit of necessary information, such as the rate at which you
> receive good hands.
>
Pick whatever definition of good hand you want. I don't care what it is.
> Or I could misunderstand.
>
> A simple answer is that if you receive a 'good' hand at a rate of 16%
> (of total hands) then the probability that you have a good hand when
> you bring it in for a full bet will be 50%.
So, then half the time your opponent will make a mistake if you follow that
frequency. Well, more often that because some of the times you don't bring it
in for the max he'll put you on a weak hand and will wrong.
Why is that a bad thing?
If you never bring it in with a raise you're opponent will make mistake in
valueing your hand 16% of the time.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| |
Date: 17 Dec 12:14:58
From: Eddie901
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
It all depends on the ante/bring-in structure and the looseness of your
opponents. Situations when it makes sense occur much more frequently in tournies
than in ring games.
I once found myself short-stacked, late in a tourney with rolled 2s. I couldn't
complete fast enough.
I rarely do this in ring games, but in some (eg Party's 50/1 structure or on
William Hill low stakes), I would complete with hands like (AA)2. Trust me,
no-one ever folds it round.
On Dec 17 2006 4:40 AM, pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 19:50:35
From: Eddie901
Subject: Like I said, it depends
|
And just to demonstrate, here's what just happened to me in hand 2 of tonight's
$5 Stud tourney...
PokerStars Game #7484320655: Tournament #37780287, $5.00+$0.50 7 Card Stud Limit
- Level I (10/20) - 2006/12/17 - 14:45:31 (ET)
Table '37780287 15' 8-max
Seat 1: hotpopped (1517 in chips)
Seat 2: MsMandy999 (1498 in chips)
Seat 3: arperez (1498 in chips)
Seat 4: NITTY (1495 in chips)
Seat 5: Eddie901 (1498 in chips)
Seat 6: El Guapo 22 (1498 in chips)
Seat 7: ParryIsland (1498 in chips)
Seat 8: wizz48 (1498 in chips)
hotpopped: posts the ante 2
MsMandy999: posts the ante 2
arperez: posts the ante 2
NITTY: posts the ante 2
Eddie901: posts the ante 2
El Guapo 22: posts the ante 2
ParryIsland: posts the ante 2
wizz48: posts the ante 2
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to hotpopped [7h]
Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc]
Dealt to arperez [Ts]
Dealt to NITTY [3d]
Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h]
Dealt to El Guapo 22 [5d]
Dealt to ParryIsland [As]
Dealt to wizz48 [Tc]
Eddie901: bets 10
El Guapo 22: folds
ParryIsland: folds
wizz48: folds
hotpopped: calls 10
MsMandy999: calls 10
arperez: folds
NITTY: calls 10
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to hotpopped [7h] [8h]
Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc] [Ah]
Dealt to NITTY [3d] [Ks]
Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h] [5h]
MsMandy999: checks
NITTY: checks
Eddie901: bets 10
hotpopped: calls 10
MsMandy999: calls 10
NITTY: folds
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h] [7c]
Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc Ah] [2s]
Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h] [9s]
hotpopped: bets 20
MsMandy999: folds
Eddie901: calls 20
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h 7c] [9c]
Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s] [Qs]
hotpopped: bets 20
Eddie901: calls 20
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s Qs] [3s]
hotpopped: bets 20
Eddie901: calls 20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hotpopped: shows [Jd 9d 7h 8h 7c 9c Th] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
Eddie901: mucks hand
hotpopped collected 206 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 206
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Dec 20:22:33
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Like I said, it depends
|
Online you'll tend to get callers because most players aren't really paying
enough attention to realize you brought it in for a full bet. There's no visual
clues for them, like actually looking at chips wout be.
On Dec 17 2006 1:50 PM, Eddie901 wrote:
> And just to demonstrate, here's what just happened to me in hand 2 of
> tonight's
> $5 Stud tourney...
>
> PokerStars Game #7484320655: Tournament #37780287, $5.00+$0.50 7 Card Stud
> Limit
> - Level I (10/20) - 2006/12/17 - 14:45:31 (ET)
> Table '37780287 15' 8-max
> Seat 1: hotpopped (1517 in chips)
> Seat 2: MsMandy999 (1498 in chips)
> Seat 3: arperez (1498 in chips)
> Seat 4: NITTY (1495 in chips)
> Seat 5: Eddie901 (1498 in chips)
> Seat 6: El Guapo 22 (1498 in chips)
> Seat 7: ParryIsland (1498 in chips)
> Seat 8: wizz48 (1498 in chips)
> hotpopped: posts the ante 2
> MsMandy999: posts the ante 2
> arperez: posts the ante 2
> NITTY: posts the ante 2
> Eddie901: posts the ante 2
> El Guapo 22: posts the ante 2
> ParryIsland: posts the ante 2
> wizz48: posts the ante 2
> *** 3rd STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h]
> Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc]
> Dealt to arperez [Ts]
> Dealt to NITTY [3d]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h]
> Dealt to El Guapo 22 [5d]
> Dealt to ParryIsland [As]
> Dealt to wizz48 [Tc]
> Eddie901: bets 10
> El Guapo 22: folds
> ParryIsland: folds
> wizz48: folds
> hotpopped: calls 10
> MsMandy999: calls 10
> arperez: folds
> NITTY: calls 10
> *** 4th STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h] [8h]
> Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc] [Ah]
> Dealt to NITTY [3d] [Ks]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h] [5h]
> MsMandy999: checks
> NITTY: checks
> Eddie901: bets 10
> hotpopped: calls 10
> MsMandy999: calls 10
> NITTY: folds
> *** 5th STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h] [7c]
> Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc Ah] [2s]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h] [9s]
> hotpopped: bets 20
> MsMandy999: folds
> Eddie901: calls 20
> *** 6th STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h 7c] [9c]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s] [Qs]
> hotpopped: bets 20
> Eddie901: calls 20
> *** RIVER ***
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s Qs] [3s]
> hotpopped: bets 20
> Eddie901: calls 20
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> hotpopped: shows [Jd 9d 7h 8h 7c 9c Th] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
> Eddie901: mucks hand
> hotpopped collected 206 from pot
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot 206
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 12:10:23
From: pokerchimp
Subject: Re: Like I said, it depends
|
All that shows is that your strategy didn't work. You misplayed the hand.
On Dec 17 2006 2:50 PM, Eddie901 wrote:
> And just to demonstrate, here's what just happened to me in hand 2 of
tonight's
> $5 Stud tourney...
>
> PokerStars Game #7484320655: Tournament #37780287, $5.00+$0.50 7 Card Stud
Limit
> - Level I (10/20) - 2006/12/17 - 14:45:31 (ET)
> Table '37780287 15' 8-max
> Seat 1: hotpopped (1517 in chips)
> Seat 2: MsMandy999 (1498 in chips)
> Seat 3: arperez (1498 in chips)
> Seat 4: NITTY (1495 in chips)
> Seat 5: Eddie901 (1498 in chips)
> Seat 6: El Guapo 22 (1498 in chips)
> Seat 7: ParryIsland (1498 in chips)
> Seat 8: wizz48 (1498 in chips)
> hotpopped: posts the ante 2
> MsMandy999: posts the ante 2
> arperez: posts the ante 2
> NITTY: posts the ante 2
> Eddie901: posts the ante 2
> El Guapo 22: posts the ante 2
> ParryIsland: posts the ante 2
> wizz48: posts the ante 2
> *** 3rd STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h]
> Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc]
> Dealt to arperez [Ts]
> Dealt to NITTY [3d]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h]
> Dealt to El Guapo 22 [5d]
> Dealt to ParryIsland [As]
> Dealt to wizz48 [Tc]
> Eddie901: bets 10
> El Guapo 22: folds
> ParryIsland: folds
> wizz48: folds
> hotpopped: calls 10
> MsMandy999: calls 10
> arperez: folds
> NITTY: calls 10
> *** 4th STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h] [8h]
> Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc] [Ah]
> Dealt to NITTY [3d] [Ks]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h] [5h]
> MsMandy999: checks
> NITTY: checks
> Eddie901: bets 10
> hotpopped: calls 10
> MsMandy999: calls 10
> NITTY: folds
> *** 5th STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h] [7c]
> Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc Ah] [2s]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h] [9s]
> hotpopped: bets 20
> MsMandy999: folds
> Eddie901: calls 20
> *** 6th STREET ***
> Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h 7c] [9c]
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s] [Qs]
> hotpopped: bets 20
> Eddie901: calls 20
> *** RIVER ***
> Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s Qs] [3s]
> hotpopped: bets 20
> Eddie901: calls 20
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> hotpopped: shows [Jd 9d 7h 8h 7c 9c Th] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
> Eddie901: mucks hand
> hotpopped collected 206 from pot
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot 206
|
| | | | |
Date: 17 Dec 20:25:21
From: Eddie901
Subject: Re: Like I said, it depends
|
Gee, thanks.
On Dec 17 2006 8:10 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> All that shows is that your strategy didn't work. You misplayed the hand.
>
> On Dec 17 2006 2:50 PM, Eddie901 wrote:
>
> > And just to demonstrate, here's what just happened to me in hand 2 of
> tonight's
> > $5 Stud tourney...
> >
> > PokerStars Game #7484320655: Tournament #37780287, $5.00+$0.50 7 Card Stud
> Limit
> > - Level I (10/20) - 2006/12/17 - 14:45:31 (ET)
> > Table '37780287 15' 8-max
> > Seat 1: hotpopped (1517 in chips)
> > Seat 2: MsMandy999 (1498 in chips)
> > Seat 3: arperez (1498 in chips)
> > Seat 4: NITTY (1495 in chips)
> > Seat 5: Eddie901 (1498 in chips)
> > Seat 6: El Guapo 22 (1498 in chips)
> > Seat 7: ParryIsland (1498 in chips)
> > Seat 8: wizz48 (1498 in chips)
> > hotpopped: posts the ante 2
> > MsMandy999: posts the ante 2
> > arperez: posts the ante 2
> > NITTY: posts the ante 2
> > Eddie901: posts the ante 2
> > El Guapo 22: posts the ante 2
> > ParryIsland: posts the ante 2
> > wizz48: posts the ante 2
> > *** 3rd STREET ***
> > Dealt to hotpopped [7h]
> > Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc]
> > Dealt to arperez [Ts]
> > Dealt to NITTY [3d]
> > Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h]
> > Dealt to El Guapo 22 [5d]
> > Dealt to ParryIsland [As]
> > Dealt to wizz48 [Tc]
> > Eddie901: bets 10
> > El Guapo 22: folds
> > ParryIsland: folds
> > wizz48: folds
> > hotpopped: calls 10
> > MsMandy999: calls 10
> > arperez: folds
> > NITTY: calls 10
> > *** 4th STREET ***
> > Dealt to hotpopped [7h] [8h]
> > Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc] [Ah]
> > Dealt to NITTY [3d] [Ks]
> > Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h] [5h]
> > MsMandy999: checks
> > NITTY: checks
> > Eddie901: bets 10
> > hotpopped: calls 10
> > MsMandy999: calls 10
> > NITTY: folds
> > *** 5th STREET ***
> > Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h] [7c]
> > Dealt to MsMandy999 [Kc Ah] [2s]
> > Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h] [9s]
> > hotpopped: bets 20
> > MsMandy999: folds
> > Eddie901: calls 20
> > *** 6th STREET ***
> > Dealt to hotpopped [7h 8h 7c] [9c]
> > Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s] [Qs]
> > hotpopped: bets 20
> > Eddie901: calls 20
> > *** RIVER ***
> > Dealt to Eddie901 [2c 2d 2h 5h 9s Qs] [3s]
> > hotpopped: bets 20
> > Eddie901: calls 20
> > *** SHOW DOWN ***
> > hotpopped: shows [Jd 9d 7h 8h 7c 9c Th] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
> > Eddie901: mucks hand
> > hotpopped collected 206 from pot
> > *** SUMMARY ***
> > Total pot 206
|
| |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:42:44
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 16 2006 9:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
It's worse in Stud than Stud8, IMO. Nonetheless, it gives your opponents
a lot of info about your hand. Why give free info? Much better to keep
your strength to yourself.
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
---
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 17 Dec
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 16 2006 10:40 PM, pokerchimp wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites tourney.
>
> Discuss
>
It kind of depends on how big the antes are, what your hand is, and in a tourney
how big your stack is.
Anytime somebody tells you that X is always a terrible play where X is some
simple unconditional act then you've learned that you should simply ignore
anything that person tells you in the future, except for remembering the
particular nonsense they tend to believe.
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| |
Date: 16 Dec 2006 23:32:28
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
xyious wrote:
> in razz with a king you very likely do not have the best hand, everyone
> else at the table would have to have a pair....
A2K is ahead of a lot of hands.
|
| | |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:56:03
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
On Dec 17 2006 12:32 AM, Old Wolf wrote:
> xyious wrote:
> > in razz with a king you very likely do not have the best hand, everyone
> > else at the table would have to have a pair....
>
> A2K is ahead of a lot of hands.
A2K is ahead on 3rd street less than 1% of the time, and you will never
know when because you are first to act.
Fell
--
Website: www.fellknight.com
Email: fellknight at gmail dot com
________________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| |
Date: 16 Dec 2006 23:25:39
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
Tom Cruise's Ex-Girlfriend's Secret Lover wrote:
> I love it when the bring-in in a razz game completes with a king up. That
> is truly a terrible play.
Worse than when the king reraises ?
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 01:57:35
From: Chuck24seven
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
pokerchimp;1010475 Wrote:
> Been told this is a terrible play. Yet everyone doing it tonites
> tourney.
>
> Discuss
>
> thumbers on stars, dieseldyke on absolute/vegaspoker24/7
>
> ------
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : [=[/url]
Every play in poker has it's place (except maybe checking the nuts on
the button on the river)
The reason you bring it in for the full bet is in hopes that you get
one of your opponents (who knows you are a tight agressive player, ane
1-have a hand 2- will keep betting) getting them to fold -
less chasers = better chance of your hand holding up.
--
Chuck24seven
- http://www.pokerhelper.com RGP Access News Forums -
|
| |
Date: 17 Dec 2006 15:15:57
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
FellKnight wrote:
> Old Wolf wrote:
> > xyious wrote:
> > > in razz with a king you very likely do not have the best hand, everyone
> > > else at the table would have to have a pair....
> >
> > A2K is ahead of a lot of hands.
>
> A2K is ahead on 3rd street less than 1% of the time, and you will never
> know when because you are first to act.
Obviously it's not the best hand on the table. But say you complete
with a K up and it's folded to the guy on your right, so you are
heads up. You're ahead of any paired hand obviously, and also
twodimes tells me that A2K > Q9A or JTA.
Also, it would be very easy for you to catch good and the other
player(s) catch bad , in which case you would be well-placed.
NB. I don't know anything about Razz so these are just ideas
I had.
|
| |
Date: 18 Dec 2006 08:53:44
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bringing in in stud with max bet
|
A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 21:10:52 -0800, "pokerchimp" <mixthing@se.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >It does to an extent. I am just wondering what they are thinking, what's
> >the rationale? Trying to steal the antes? Trying to encourage a reraise?
>
> Not that I'm in any position to discuss this game (when I did this it was
> just for the hell of it), but I don't see why it would be bad if you thought
> you had the best hand,
The reason it's a BAD BET is this. Bringing in cards in stud games
require the high card in Razz and the low card in Stud. Obviously, if
you have anything in your opening hand, you want action. This is not
the way to get it. It also, doesn't get you any information.
Many people attempt stealing the opening bets in good position, but
with opening for MAX, this is basically eliminated. The game is to
disquise your hand, not to tell the world you have a good one. This
isn't holdem where aggression is a rule. Stud has much finese, that
must be used to extract large bets late on after the trap is sprung.
Would you like opening for MAX rolled up in stud of stud8? How about
A23 or 234 in Razz? Only idiots open for more than minimum, for pots
will be raised and having the best hand has nothing to do with it.
The only time full bets are acceptable is during heads-up sessions.
Russ Georgiev
www.pokermafia.com
but it wasn't likely to survive against a bunch
> of callers. With a really nice hand you might want to sandbag or
> slowplay it, but you really wouldn't want to encourage a bunch of
> limpers with a good but not great hand.
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