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Main
Date: 19 Dec 2006 06:33:53
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Athiest and Christmas
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So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
them switches and ashes...
You better listen to Arlo... The man is closer to his soul than most of
us. Tough times bring life into focus.
Arlo, I have some health issues that have been bumming me out... Tinnitus
and chronic tendinitis, but reading your post about your trials have made
me realize that I just need to suck it up.
I really admire people who can take the bad beats in life without a whine.
My daughter has been a juvenile diabetic since she was thirteen. It is
twenty one years later and I have never heard a 'why me.' There is
inspiration all around us.
______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:27:20
From: FaceDownAcesUp
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> Even you would have to see the leep using Islamic extremist as an example
> of what I was talking about. Comparatively speaking, what percent of the
> supreme being believers would you say the Islamic extremist represent?
>
> Less than 5% I venture to guess. Hardly representative of the masses I
> have in mind.
The extremists are just the ones who actually have the balls to blow
themselves up. There are plenty more moderate believers who admire the
extremist's conviction in their faith and on some level condone it.
They provide an environment that makes it acceptable for the extremists
to do this crap.
Bottom line is that you both believe in a made up dude in the sky and
in a book that's the word of God. How much criticism can you level
towards an extremist who chooses to take the words literally? The
worst you can say is "ouch dude, total misinterpretation of that verse
about killing all none-believers........But hey, at least your heart is
in the right place!"
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:09:14
From: Lynx
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
Are you counting on God to deal you a hallelujah draw for Christmas, or
should there have been an "OT" in front of the title of your post?
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:27:33
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 12:09 PM, Lynx wrote:
> > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
> Are you counting on God to deal you a hallelujah draw for Christmas, or
> should there have been an "OT" in front of the title of your post?
I keep forgetting that. I will try to do better in the future.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:48:51
From: FaceDownAcesUp
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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Will_gamble wrote:
> Errr, I believe that would be Muslims. You are on the leading edge of
> this Christianity discussion that has been going on.
>
> Thanks for the deep thoughts.
Err, you made a general statement about believing in an afterlife. I
think Islam falls under that.
What's it like to be scatter brained and not coherent enough to form a
good troll post about a topic that virtually everyone is interested in?
You're a moron.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:18:11
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 11:48 AM, FaceDownAcesUp wrote:
> Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > Errr, I believe that would be Muslims. You are on the leading edge of
> > this Christianity discussion that has been going on.
> >
> > Thanks for the deep thoughts.
>
>
>
> Err, you made a general statement about believing in an afterlife. I
> think Islam falls under that.
>
> What's it like to be scatter brained and not coherent enough to form a
> good troll post about a topic that virtually everyone is interested in?
>
> You're a moron.
See my response to MysteryAce. I understand your frustration. Using a
very small group of people and their actions as representative of
Christians, Jews, Buddhist, and Hindu almost made you look as foolish as
your follow up post where you have to lash out with insults.
Maybe a group with more immature posters would suit you better.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:24:25
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 11:18 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 11:48 AM, FaceDownAcesUp wrote:
>
> > Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> > > Errr, I believe that would be Muslims. You are on the leading edge of
> > > this Christianity discussion that has been going on.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the deep thoughts.
> >
> >
> >
> > Err, you made a general statement about believing in an afterlife. I
> > think Islam falls under that.
> >
> > What's it like to be scatter brained and not coherent enough to form a
> > good troll post about a topic that virtually everyone is interested in?
> >
> > You're a moron.
>
> See my response to MysteryAce. I understand your frustration. Using a
> very small group of people and their actions as representative of
> Christians, Jews, Buddhist, and Hindu almost made you look as foolish as
> your follow up post where you have to lash out with insults.
>
> Maybe a group with more immature posters would suit you better.
Just curious why you use the terms "small group of people" and then
exclude Islamic religion altogether in your subsequent list.
Do you mean to imply that the Muslim religion is entirely extremist and
small? In fact, Muslims make up 21% of the world population (only 8% less
than Christianity). Even you should recognize that only a tiny portion of
those people make up extremists.
So then why exclude them?
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:39:59
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 12:24 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> Just curious why you use the terms "small group of people" and then
> exclude Islamic religion altogether in your subsequent list.
>
> Do you mean to imply that the Muslim religion is entirely extremist and
> small? In fact, Muslims make up 21% of the world population (only 8% less
> than Christianity). Even you should recognize that only a tiny portion of
> those people make up extremists.
>
I was trying to name the other religions... plain a simple. Do you pick
at scabs?
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:44:00
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 11:39 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 12:24 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> >
> > Just curious why you use the terms "small group of people" and then
> > exclude Islamic religion altogether in your subsequent list.
> >
> > Do you mean to imply that the Muslim religion is entirely extremist and
> > small? In fact, Muslims make up 21% of the world population (only 8% less
> > than Christianity). Even you should recognize that only a tiny portion of
> > those people make up extremists.
> >
>
> I was trying to name the other religions... plain a simple. Do you pick
> at scabs?
No, that's fair enough an answer. A lot of people like to single out
Islam as "evil".
I have no further questions for the witness, your honor. :)
Anyhow, so this doesn't get all muddied up, I'm very happy for you that
you have your religion, and your personal views and beliefs. I'm not
trying to imply that you should not, in any way. My only stance is that
it's not for everyone, and that in itself is not a bad thing.
Best wishes to you and your family in this holiday season!
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:53:39
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 12:44 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 11:39 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2006 12:24 PM, MysteriAce wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Just curious why you use the terms "small group of people" and then
> > > exclude Islamic religion altogether in your subsequent list.
> > >
> > > Do you mean to imply that the Muslim religion is entirely extremist and
> > > small? In fact, Muslims make up 21% of the world population (only 8%
less
> > > than Christianity). Even you should recognize that only a tiny portion
of
> > > those people make up extremists.
> > >
> >
> > I was trying to name the other religions... plain a simple. Do you pick
> > at scabs?
>
> No, that's fair enough an answer. A lot of people like to single out
> Islam as "evil".
>
> I have no further questions for the witness, your honor. :)
>
> Anyhow, so this doesn't get all muddied up, I'm very happy for you that
> you have your religion, and your personal views and beliefs. I'm not
> trying to imply that you should not, in any way. My only stance is that
> it's not for everyone, and that in itself is not a bad thing.
>
> Best wishes to you and your family in this holiday season!
>
I like happy endings. And also with you. See you at the tables.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:42:58
From:
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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Will_gamble wrote:
> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
> Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> them switches and ashes...
>
> You better listen to Arlo... The man is closer to his soul than most of
> us. Tough times bring life into focus.
>
> Arlo, I have some health issues that have been bumming me out... Tinnitus
> and chronic tendinitis, but reading your post about your trials have made
> me realize that I just need to suck it up.
>
> I really admire people who can take the bad beats in life without a whine.
> My daughter has been a juvenile diabetic since she was thirteen. It is
> twenty one years later and I have never heard a 'why me.' There is
> inspiration all around us.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
As an Atheist I celebrate Christmas like most Christians - by
celebrating the life and person of Jesus Christ. I don't need to
believe in God to understand the value Jesus brought to the world or to
admire the wonder of the Christmas story. I spend time with my family
reading the Bible and children's books about the Christmas story and
reflecting on the message Jesus delivered.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 10:21:42
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 11:42 AM, abe.buckingham wrote:
>> As an Atheist I celebrate Christmas like most Christians - by
> celebrating the life and person of Jesus Christ. I don't need to
> believe in God to understand the value Jesus brought to the world or to
> admire the wonder of the Christmas story. I spend time with my family
> reading the Bible and children's books about the Christmas story and
> reflecting on the message Jesus delivered.
To me, this answer is pretty profound. Thank you.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 08:44:19
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 7:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
I'm not sure I can make sense out of that statement.
> Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> them switches and ashes...
Coal. I think the common story is that if you are not good, you'll get
coal in your stocking. I've never heard of anyone saying "you'll get
switches and ashes in your stocking!"
My parents are not athiests, but they are not Christian, either. We had
Christmas every year, much many other people. The only difference is that
we didn't try to make it about Jesus and sit through church. But we had
Santa, the presents, the spirit, the whole shebang. It was all quite
normal, thank you.
>
> You better listen to Arlo... The man is closer to his soul than most of
> us. Tough times bring life into focus.
>
> Arlo, I have some health issues that have been bumming me out... Tinnitus
> and chronic tendinitis, but reading your post about your trials have made
> me realize that I just need to suck it up.
>
> I really admire people who can take the bad beats in life without a whine.
> My daughter has been a juvenile diabetic since she was thirteen. It is
> twenty one years later and I have never heard a 'why me.' There is
> inspiration all around us.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
________________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 08:57:06
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 10:44 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 7:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
> I'm not sure I can make sense out of that statement.
>
My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in children
of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
Whether you believe in God or not, I believe the world to be a better
place when people are concerned about their actions in relationship to a
supreme being. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how that
works. Sure there are plenty of atrocities that are attributable to
Christians, but as a whole, I believe that if the masses are concerned
about their life here after, it is a better place to live. Sooooo,
whether you believe in it or not (like Santa and children during a time
where you are developing a sense of good and bad) just see it as a
developmental tool and be quiet. There is a very practical purpose for
religion.
> > Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> > them switches and ashes...
>
> Coal. I think the common story is that if you are not good, you'll get
> coal in your stocking. I've never heard of anyone saying "you'll get
> switches and ashes in your stocking!"
>
From http://www.northpolesantaclaus.com/santahistory.htm
In some places, the images, of Knecht Ruprecht and St. Nicholas merged to
form Ru Klaus (meaning Rough Nicholas - so named because of his rugged
appearance), Aschen Klaus (meaning Ash Nicholas - because he carried a
sack of ashes as well as a bundle of switches), and Pelznickle (meaning
Furry Nicholas - referring to his fur clad appearance).
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:15:35
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 9:57 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 10:44 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2006 7:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> > > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
> >
> > I'm not sure I can make sense out of that statement.
> >
> My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in children
> of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
> like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
> Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
Why? I fail to see the logic. Parents tell their kids all the time, "be
good or I'll ground you" or even worse "be good or I'll beat you." On the
flip side they reward their children, "If you are good you can play with
your friend Travis."
Using the carrot/stick approach to parenting isn't isolated to
Christianity. I think you are looking for or seeing some hidden
corrolation that isn't really there.
> Whether you believe in God or not, I believe the world to be a better
> place when people are concerned about their actions in relationship to a
> supreme being.
That's great for you. I have zero interest in debating the
merits/detriments of organized religion in society. Suffice it to say
that it's great that you feel that way, but there is no factual basis to
support your argument.
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how that
> works. Sure there are plenty of atrocities that are attributable to
> Christians, but as a whole, I believe that if the masses are concerned
> about their life here after, it is a better place to live. Sooooo,
> whether you believe in it or not (like Santa and children during a time
> where you are developing a sense of good and bad) just see it as a
> developmental tool and be quiet. There is a very practical purpose for
> religion.
Of course there is. People generally need to believe in something, to
believe that there is some greater purpose or design to explain the
unexplainable. That doesn't mean that it's a glove that fits everyone's
hand, though.
> > > Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> > > them switches and ashes...
> >
> > Coal. I think the common story is that if you are not good, you'll get
> > coal in your stocking. I've never heard of anyone saying "you'll get
> > switches and ashes in your stocking!"
> >
> From http://www.northpolesantaclaus.com/santahistory.htm
>
> In some places, the images, of Knecht Ruprecht and St. Nicholas merged to
> form Ru Klaus (meaning Rough Nicholas - so named because of his rugged
> appearance), Aschen Klaus (meaning Ash Nicholas - because he carried a
> sack of ashes as well as a bundle of switches), and Pelznickle (meaning
> Furry Nicholas - referring to his fur clad appearance).
Hey, you learn something new everyday! Thanks.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:30:52
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 11:15 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 9:57 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2006 10:44 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 19 2006 7:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> > >
> > > > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure I can make sense out of that statement.
> > >
> > My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in children
> > of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
> > like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
> > Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
>
> Why? I fail to see the logic. Parents tell their kids all the time, "be
> good or I'll ground you" or even worse "be good or I'll beat you." On the
> flip side they reward their children, "If you are good you can play with
> your friend Travis."
>
> Using the carrot/stick approach to parenting isn't isolated to
> Christianity. I think you are looking for or seeing some hidden
> corrolation that isn't really there.
>
But Christmas uses a a fictional character (Santa) to render judgment.. I
guess that is why it seemed relevant. I was wondering how people who
believe that God and Jesus etc were fictional characters that judged
people felt about Christmas and Santa?
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:37:29
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
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On Dec 19 2006 10:30 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 11:15 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2006 9:57 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 19 2006 10:44 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Dec 19 2006 7:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure I can make sense out of that statement.
> > > >
> > > My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in children
> > > of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
> > > like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
> > > Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
> >
> > Why? I fail to see the logic. Parents tell their kids all the time, "be
> > good or I'll ground you" or even worse "be good or I'll beat you." On the
> > flip side they reward their children, "If you are good you can play with
> > your friend Travis."
> >
> > Using the carrot/stick approach to parenting isn't isolated to
> > Christianity. I think you are looking for or seeing some hidden
> > corrolation that isn't really there.
> >
> But Christmas uses a a fictional character (Santa) to render judgment.. I
> guess that is why it seemed relevant. I was wondering how people who
> believe that God and Jesus etc were fictional characters that judged
> people felt about Christmas and Santa?
My guess is that they are okay with it, if they choose to do the X-mas
thing, because they eventually tell their kids the truth. Nobody tries to
tell their kids Santa is real for their entire lives.
People tell their kids about the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and
about ghosts and goblins during Halloween and about dragons and fairies
and princesses and so on and so forth. I think it's part of trying to
make childhood seem magical. Kids eat that stuff up.
Again, I'm missing the point here, I guess. If your point was to
demonstrate that athiests create a false reality for their kids in the
name of good manners, which is similar to Christianity (and makes them
appear hypocritical), I think your point fails at the point kids find out
it was all make believe for their benefit, since both Christians and
non-Christians alike admit this to their kids when the time is right.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
_____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:45:15
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 11:37 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
> Again, I'm missing the point here, I guess. If your point was to
> demonstrate that athiests create a false reality for their kids in the
> name of good manners, which is similar to Christianity (and makes them
> appear hypocritical), I think your point fails at the point kids find out
> it was all make believe for their benefit, since both Christians and
> non-Christians alike admit this to their kids when the time is right.
>
Sorry, it makes sense to me. If you believe there is no such think as
judgement, why start your kids out on that very concept with Santa?
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:49:46
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 10:45 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 11:37 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> > Again, I'm missing the point here, I guess. If your point was to
> > demonstrate that athiests create a false reality for their kids in the
> > name of good manners, which is similar to Christianity (and makes them
> > appear hypocritical), I think your point fails at the point kids find out
> > it was all make believe for their benefit, since both Christians and
> > non-Christians alike admit this to their kids when the time is right.
> >
>
> Sorry, it makes sense to me. If you believe there is no such think as
> judgement, why start your kids out on that very concept with Santa?
I think you are confused. Athiests do not teach their kids that there is
no "judgement". They do not believe in a supreme being. These are very
different concepts.
Do you honestly think athiests tell their children "do what you wish, for
nobody can judge you"? If so, you are very out of touch with reality.
Athiests teach their kids about consequences, just like everyone else.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:42:14
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
"Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:28il54xjud.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2006 10:44 AM, MysteriAce wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2006 7:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> > > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
> >
> > I'm not sure I can make sense out of that statement.
> >
> My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in children
> of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
> like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
> Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
>
> Whether you believe in God or not, I believe the world to be a better
> place when people are concerned about their actions in relationship to a
> supreme being.
Why?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how that
> works.
No, it takes an idiot to imagine it works.
Sure there are plenty of atrocities that are attributable to
> Christians, but as a whole, I believe that if the masses are concerned
> about their life here after, it is a better place to live.
So you think fear of persecution leads to better behavior?
Sooooo,
> whether you believe in it or not (like Santa and children during a time
> where you are developing a sense of good and bad) just see it as a
> developmental tool and be quiet. There is a very practical purpose for
> religion.
Yeah, manipulation of the simpleminded.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:49:51
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 11:42 PM, Beldin the Sorcerer wrote:
>
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how that
> > works.
> No, it takes an idiot to imagine it works.
More name calling Yawn...
>
> Sure there are plenty of atrocities that are attributable to
> > Christians, but as a whole, I believe that if the masses are concerned
> > about their life here after, it is a better place to live.
>
> So you think fear of persecution leads to better behavior?
>
Isn't that the way our entire legal system is set up? So, you say look at
all the crime? And what would it look like with out what we have?
> Sooooo,
> > whether you believe in it or not (like Santa and children during a time
> > where you are developing a sense of good and bad) just see it as a
> > developmental tool and be quiet. There is a very practical purpose for
> > religion.
> Yeah, manipulation of the simpleminded.
Your point? Manipulation is a way of life for governments, big business,
and the rich.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 23:21:02
From: Patti Beadles
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
In article <28il54xjud.ln2@recgroups.com >,
Will_gamble <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Whether you believe in God or not, I believe the world to be a better
>place when people are concerned about their actions in relationship to a
>supreme being.
I believe the world to be a better place when people are concerned
about their actions in relationship to the rest of humanity. I
don't need an invisible friend to force me to treat other people
well-- I do it because I believe it is the right way to behave.
Morals and ethics are much stronger when they come from inside
than when they're dictated by an outsider.
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 14:02:07
From: LiamToo
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
MysteriAce wrote:
> Yes.
> Here's some interesting reading:
> "Luke's Gospel, describing Christ's birth, tells us: "So it was, that
> while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
> And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling
> cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in
> the inn. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the
> fields, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:6-8, emphasis
> added throughout).
> We see that when Jesus was born shepherds were spending the night with
> their flocks in open fields. In that region, from December to February,
> though the heat of the day might feel comfortable enough when the human
> body is covered, the cold of the night was piercing. Thus the shepherds
> never kept their flocks and herds out in the open country from December
> through February-it was simply too cold"
Interesting reading indeed! However, Luke didn't say any date. There
are some nights in December, even here in states that are warm. It's
not that wintry cold in Bethlehem even to this day. Plus there are
tents to go to. Could it be that that night was special?
> "The Roman census system is another historical proof that Jesus wasn't
> born in December. Luke 2:1 tells us that "it came to pass in those days
> that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be
> registered." However, this would not have happened in winter because "the
> middle of winter was not fitting for such a business, especially for women
> with child, and children to travel in. Therefore, Christ could not be born
> in the depth of winter ... And if any shall think the winter wind was not
> so extreme in these parts, let him remember the words of Christ in the
> gospel, 'pray that your flight be not in the winter'" (Hislop, p. 92).
> The Romans were efficient administrators. They would never consciously
> choose a time to register every man, woman and child when travel would
> have been so difficult because of cold and inclement weather. Here, too,
> is biblical proof that Jesus was not born in December's cold weather. "
> There is actually a lot of evidence that suggests Jesus was not born on
> Dec. 25th. Much of it is in your own bible.
That's what the Jehovahs Witnesses have been preaching and the truth is
that there is not a single verse in the Bible that says any date
whether December 25 or October 1.
At any rate, I gave the title of the books and chapter in which they
were written by early Chritians in 220 and 221 AD. I'd rather believe
these books than the preachings of Charles Taze Russell in 1872.
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:59:29
From: LiamToo
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
I_AM_EVIL wrote:
> Was Jesus born in the city of Bethlehem or David? Doesn't the bible
> have 2 stories about his birth in 2 different cities?
Jesus was born in Bethlehem. He is a descendant of David.
You might be talking about Nazareth, because of the term "Jesus of
Nazareth". It's the town where Jesus grew up and cosidered his hometown.
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:55:59
From: LiamToo
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
MysteriAce wrote:
> I guess that's what it all comes down to, then. What you would RATHER
> believe in.
> It's your choice. But the evidence that supports his date of birth was
> not Dec. 25th is quite compelling.
> Peace be with you.
Peace be with you! And Merry Christmas!
The first date that anyone could come up with was actually May 20. It
was written by Clement of Alexandria in 200. However, as pointed out in
the link below, he was using a different calendar.
Here's the most compelling piece of work, which includes citations
from different books of early Christians, Roman census, timeline in
various parts of the world, etc. It's the real history of Christmas.
Warning, very long:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:49:08
From: LiamToo
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
MysteriAce wrote:
> I guess that's what it all comes down to, then. What you would RATHER
> believe in.
>
> It's your choice. But the evidence that supports his date of birth was
> not Dec. 25th is quite compelling.
>
> Peace be with you.
Peace be with you! And Merry Christmas!
The first date that anyone could come up with was actually May 20. It
was written by Clement of Rome in 200. However, as pointed out in the
link below, he was using a different calendar.
Here's an honest opinion with citations from different books or early
Christians, Roman census, etc, including different dates and evidences.
Warning, very long:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 01:29:59
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
It's an absolute scientific fact that He was born on Christmas Day, December
25th. Do you seriously think 25,000 retail stores from coast-to-coast, not
to mention the Home Shopping Channel, could all be wrong? Plus, I always
get presents on that exact same day - every year! Duh!!!
Irish Mike
"LiamToo" <liamtoo805@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1166564948.645589.271160@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> MysteriAce wrote:
>> I guess that's what it all comes down to, then. What you would RATHER
>> believe in.
>>
>> It's your choice. But the evidence that supports his date of birth was
>> not Dec. 25th is quite compelling.
>>
>> Peace be with you.
>
> Peace be with you! And Merry Christmas!
>
> The first date that anyone could come up with was actually May 20. It
> was written by Clement of Rome in 200. However, as pointed out in the
> link below, he was using a different calendar.
>
> Here's an honest opinion with citations from different books or early
> Christians, Roman census, etc, including different dates and evidences.
>
>
> Warning, very long:
>
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
>
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:10:00
From: LiamToo
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
MysteriAce wrote:
> Yes.
>
> Here's some interesting reading:
>
> "Luke's Gospel, describing Christ's birth, tells us: "So it was, that
> while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
> And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling
> cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in
> the inn. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the
> fields, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:6-8, emphasis
> added throughout).
>
> We see that when Jesus was born shepherds were spending the night with
> their flocks in open fields. In that region, from December to February,
> though the heat of the day might feel comfortable enough when the human
> body is covered, the cold of the night was piercing. Thus the shepherds
> never kept their flocks and herds out in the open country from December
> through February-it was simply too cold"
Interesting reading indeed! However, Luke didn't say any date. There
are some nights in December, even here in states that are warm. It's
not that wintry cold in Bethlehem even to this day. Plus there are
tents to go to. Could it be that that night was special?
> "The Roman census system is another historical proof that Jesus wasn't
> born in December. Luke 2:1 tells us that "it came to pass in those days
> that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be
> registered." However, this would not have happened in winter because "the
> middle of winter was not fitting for such a business, especially for women
> with child, and children to travel in. Therefore, Christ could not be born
> in the depth of winter ... And if any shall think the winter wind was not
> so extreme in these parts, let him remember the words of Christ in the
> gospel, 'pray that your flight be not in the winter'" (Hislop, p. 92).
> The Romans were efficient administrators. They would never consciously
> choose a time to register every man, woman and child when travel would
> have been so difficult because of cold and inclement weather. Here, too,
> is biblical proof that Jesus was not born in December's cold weather. "
> There is actually a lot of evidence that suggests Jesus was not born on
> Dec. 25th. Much of it is in your own bible.
That's what the Jehovahs Witnesses have been preaching and the truth is
that there is not a single verse in the Bible that says any date
whether December 25 or October 1.
At any rate, I gave the title of the books and chapter in which they
were written by early Chritians in 220 and 221 AD. I'd rather believe
these books than the preachings of Charles Taze Russell in 1872.
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:56:19
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
"LiamToo" <liamtoo805@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1166562600.781169.185000@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> MysteriAce wrote:
> At any rate, I gave the title of the books and chapter in which they
> were written by early Chritians in 220 and 221 AD. I'd rather believe
> these books than the preachings of Charles Taze Russell in 1872.
>
Liam, historical fact : The pope at the time made up dec 25'th because all
the pagans he was trying to convert were still celebrating the winter
solstice.
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 3:10 PM, LiamToo wrote:
> Interesting reading indeed! However, Luke didn't say any date. There
> are some nights in December, even here in states that are warm. It's
> not that wintry cold in Bethlehem even to this day. Plus there are
> tents to go to. Could it be that that night was special?
Yes. And since the Roman Governers weren't yet hindered by the anti-science
stance of the pope they had developed weather forecasting techniques that
allowed them to predict what nights that would be so that could plan the census
in advance.
That's what all those big buildings in Rome were used for -- to house the
computers they used to do the weather forecast.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:05:20
From: LiamToo
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
MysteriAce wrote:
> Here's some interesting reading:
>
> "Luke's Gospel, describing Christ's birth, tells us: "So it was, that
> while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
> And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling
> cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in
> the inn. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the
> fields, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:6-8, emphasis
> added throughout).
>
> We see that when Jesus was born shepherds were spending the night with
> their flocks in open fields. In that region, from December to February,
> though the heat of the day might feel comfortable enough when the human
> body is covered, the cold of the night was piercing. Thus the shepherds
> never kept their flocks and herds out in the open country from December
> through February-it was simply too cold"
Interesting reading indeed! However, Luke didn't say any date. There
are
some nights in December, even here in states that are warm. It's not
that
wintry cold in Bethlehem even to this day. Plus there are tents to go
to.
Could it be that that night was special?
> "The Roman census system is another historical proof that Jesus wasn't
> born in December. Luke 2:1 tells us that "it came to pass in those days
> that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be
> registered." However, this would not have happened in winter because "the
> middle of winter was not fitting for such a business, especially for women
> with child, and children to travel in. Therefore, Christ could not be born
> in the depth of winter ... And if any shall think the winter wind was not
> so extreme in these parts, let him remember the words of Christ in the
> gospel, 'pray that your flight be not in the winter'" (Hislop, p. 92).
>
> The Romans were efficient administrators. They would never consciously
> choose a time to register every man, woman and child when travel would
> have been so difficult because of cold and inclement weather. Here, too,
> is biblical proof that Jesus was not born in December's cold weather. "
>
> There is actually a lot of evidence that suggests Jesus was not born on
> Dec. 25th. Much of it is in your own bible.
That's what the Jehovahs Witnesses have been preaching that and yet
there
not one single verse in the Bible that says any date whether December
25
or October 1 to be found.
At any rate, I gave the title of the books and chapter in which they
were written
by early Chritians in 220 and 221 AD. I'd rather believe these books
than the preachings of Charles Taze Russell in 1872.
|
| | | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:41:46
From: I_AM_EVIL
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 4:05 PM, LiamToo wrote:
> MysteriAce wrote:
> > Here's some interesting reading:
> >
> > "Luke's Gospel, describing Christ's birth, tells us: "So it was, that
> > while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
> > And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling
> > cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in
> > the inn. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the
> > fields, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:6-8, emphasis
> > added throughout).
> >
> > We see that when Jesus was born shepherds were spending the night with
> > their flocks in open fields. In that region, from December to February,
> > though the heat of the day might feel comfortable enough when the human
> > body is covered, the cold of the night was piercing. Thus the shepherds
> > never kept their flocks and herds out in the open country from December
> > through February-it was simply too cold"
>
> Interesting reading indeed! However, Luke didn't say any date. There
> are
> some nights in December, even here in states that are warm. It's not
> that
> wintry cold in Bethlehem even to this day. Plus there are tents to go
> to.
> Could it be that that night was special?
>
> > "The Roman census system is another historical proof that Jesus wasn't
> > born in December. Luke 2:1 tells us that "it came to pass in those days
> > that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be
> > registered." However, this would not have happened in winter because "the
> > middle of winter was not fitting for such a business, especially for women
> > with child, and children to travel in. Therefore, Christ could not be born
> > in the depth of winter ... And if any shall think the winter wind was not
> > so extreme in these parts, let him remember the words of Christ in the
> > gospel, 'pray that your flight be not in the winter'" (Hislop, p. 92).
> >
> > The Romans were efficient administrators. They would never consciously
> > choose a time to register every man, woman and child when travel would
> > have been so difficult because of cold and inclement weather. Here, too,
> > is biblical proof that Jesus was not born in December's cold weather. "
> >
> > There is actually a lot of evidence that suggests Jesus was not born on
> > Dec. 25th. Much of it is in your own bible.
>
> That's what the Jehovahs Witnesses have been preaching that and yet
> there
> not one single verse in the Bible that says any date whether December
> 25
> or October 1 to be found.
>
> At any rate, I gave the title of the books and chapter in which they
> were written
> by early Chritians in 220 and 221 AD. I'd rather believe these books
> than the preachings of Charles Taze Russell in 1872.
Was Jesus born in the city of Bethlehem or David? Doesn't the bible
have 2 stories about his birth in 2 different cities?
The 2nd Amendment........America's TRUE Homeland Security.
------
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:25:45
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 2:05 PM, LiamToo wrote:
> MysteriAce wrote:
> > Here's some interesting reading:
> >
> > "Luke's Gospel, describing Christ's birth, tells us: "So it was, that
> > while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
> > And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling
> > cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in
> > the inn. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the
> > fields, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:6-8, emphasis
> > added throughout).
> >
> > We see that when Jesus was born shepherds were spending the night with
> > their flocks in open fields. In that region, from December to February,
> > though the heat of the day might feel comfortable enough when the human
> > body is covered, the cold of the night was piercing. Thus the shepherds
> > never kept their flocks and herds out in the open country from December
> > through February-it was simply too cold"
>
> Interesting reading indeed! However, Luke didn't say any date. There
> are
> some nights in December, even here in states that are warm. It's not
> that
> wintry cold in Bethlehem even to this day. Plus there are tents to go
> to.
> Could it be that that night was special?
>
> > "The Roman census system is another historical proof that Jesus wasn't
> > born in December. Luke 2:1 tells us that "it came to pass in those days
> > that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be
> > registered." However, this would not have happened in winter because "the
> > middle of winter was not fitting for such a business, especially for women
> > with child, and children to travel in. Therefore, Christ could not be born
> > in the depth of winter ... And if any shall think the winter wind was not
> > so extreme in these parts, let him remember the words of Christ in the
> > gospel, 'pray that your flight be not in the winter'" (Hislop, p. 92).
> >
> > The Romans were efficient administrators. They would never consciously
> > choose a time to register every man, woman and child when travel would
> > have been so difficult because of cold and inclement weather. Here, too,
> > is biblical proof that Jesus was not born in December's cold weather. "
> >
> > There is actually a lot of evidence that suggests Jesus was not born on
> > Dec. 25th. Much of it is in your own bible.
>
> That's what the Jehovahs Witnesses have been preaching that and yet
> there
> not one single verse in the Bible that says any date whether December
> 25
> or October 1 to be found.
>
> At any rate, I gave the title of the books and chapter in which they
> were written
> by early Chritians in 220 and 221 AD. I'd rather believe these books
> than the preachings of Charles Taze Russell in 1872.
I guess that's what it all comes down to, then. What you would RATHER
believe in.
It's your choice. But the evidence that supports his date of birth was
not Dec. 25th is quite compelling.
Peace be with you.
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
---
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 19:54:48
From: Follow
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 9:57 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in children
> of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
> like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
> Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
That's very funny. Christians take Yule from the Pagans, and decide that their
Christ was born that day, when it's highly improbable that, if Yeshua of
Nazareth existed at all, he was born on that day. Fast forward a few hundred
years, and Christians are now asking why others would celebrate the holiday
without belief that their Christ was born that day.
I'm just basking in the awesomeness of this irony.
Follow :)
_______________________________________________________________
Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 09:52:19
From: Ayatollah Yootwiessalreddi
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
In article <1166558088$924487@recpoker.com >, 43086214
@recpoker.com says...
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Dec 19 2006 9:57 AM, Will_gamble wrote:=20
>=20
> > My original thought was that Christmas is based upon a belief in childr=
en
> > of Santa and then we tell them they must be good for a reward. Kind of
> > like Christianity. I thought it would be strange if an atheist did the
> > Christmas thing and then was outspoken about Christianity.
>=20
> That's very funny.=A0 Christians take Yule from the Pagans, and decide th=
at their
> Christ was born that day
The Muslims, for whom Jesus is a prophet, set his birthday at a=20
different date altogether, of course.
|
| | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 13:48:16
From: David
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 08:57:06 -0800, "Will_gamble"
<will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote:
<snipped >
>Whether you believe in God or not, I believe the world to be a better
>place when people are concerned about their actions in relationship to a
>supreme being. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how that
>works. Sure there are plenty of atrocities that are attributable to
>Christians, but as a whole, I believe that if the masses are concerned
>about their life here after, it is a better place to live. Sooooo,
>whether you believe in it or not (like Santa and children during a time
>where you are developing a sense of good and bad) just see it as a
>developmental tool and be quiet. There is a very practical purpose for
>religion.
My preference is that people are concerned about their actions in
relatinship to other people--not some supreme being. You do not have
a clear understanding of atheism, Will. Not believing in a supreme
being does not meant that atheists believe in being evil. It surely
does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that cooperation is
extremely beneficial to mankind. The Neanderthals had this figured
out ten's of thousands of years ago.
The practical purpose of religion is providing a set of rules that
all should abide by. These rules are set in place to in order to
ensure that the weakest are not overrun by the strongest. The rules
encourage cooperation in order to guarantee continuity. Today, we
call this set of rules the law. You can be a law-abiding citizen,
strive for the betterment of mankind, and promote goodwill without
believing in a supreme being.
Since this thread was about Christmas, I will add that the spirit of
X-mas is a good thing. Relegating x-mas to the commercial product
that is has become is downright shameful. As an atheist, I would
like to wish all RGPer's peace on earth and goodwill to man this
holiday season, and all seasone hereafter.
David
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 06:05:44
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 20 2006 6:48 AM, David wrote:
>
> My preference is that people are concerned about their actions in
> relatinship to other people--not some supreme being. You do not have
> a clear understanding of atheism, Will.
If you will look back through anything I have written, I don't think you
will find one comment concerning my opinion of atheism. If that is what
you believe and are comfortable with that, I am glad for you. I asked a
simple question about atheist and Christmas, because they didn't seem to
go together. Santa being imaginary and Christ being imaginary to atheist.
> Not believing in a supreme
> being does not meant that atheists believe in being evil.
I understand. I have know some atheists that were far better people than
I. People go to church (community) to become better people, not because
they are better people. No doubt, I don't know for sure there is a God.
I have lots of questions, but I see things every day that I can't explain
and feel it didn't just happen. I am one of the masses and am not smart
enough to know on my own. I was raised by Christians and attended church
ever Sunday until I was 12. I know some people that are simple, selfless,
God loving people that I admire a great deal. I choose to go with what
those people believe because I have seen what it did for them.
Even though I have many questions, I would say that if the Romans came
today and asked me to denounce Christ or die, I would choose the latter.
>It surely
> does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that cooperation is
> extremely beneficial to mankind. The Neanderthals had this figured
> out ten's of thousands of years ago.
>
> The practical purpose of religion is providing a set of rules that
> all should abide by. These rules are set in place to in order to
> ensure that the weakest are not overrun by the strongest. The rules
> encourage cooperation in order to guarantee continuity. Today, we
> call this set of rules the law. You can be a law-abiding citizen,
> strive for the betterment of mankind, and promote goodwill without
> believing in a supreme being.
>
True, but organized religion adds another layer and strengthens society.
> Since this thread was about Christmas, I will add that the spirit of
> X-mas is a good thing. Relegating x-mas to the commercial product
> that is has become is downright shameful. As an atheist, I would
> like to wish all RGPer's peace on earth and goodwill to man this
> holiday season, and all seasone hereafter.
>
> David
Thanks for your pleasant response
------
looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 17:27:56
From: David
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:05:44 -0800, "Will_gamble"
<will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote:
>On Dec 20 2006 6:48 AM, David wrote:
>
>
>>
>> My preference is that people are concerned about their actions in
>> relatinship to other people--not some supreme being. You do not have
>> a clear understanding of atheism, Will.
>
>If you will look back through anything I have written, I don't think you
>will find one comment concerning my opinion of atheism. If that is what
>you believe and are comfortable with that, I am glad for you. I asked a
>simple question about atheist and Christmas, because they didn't seem to
>go together. Santa being imaginary and Christ being imaginary to atheist.
First of all, I was simply replyingto the post that I quoted. No
where have you read that I don't believe Jesus Christ ever existed.
Personally, I believe that he did exist, I just don't elevate him to
the status of a supreme being. There have been many great
philosophers througout history and he may certainly take his place
amongst them. I don't have to agree with everything he said, though.
>> Not believing in a supreme
>> being does not meant that atheists believe in being evil.
>
>I understand. I have know some atheists that were far better people than
>I. People go to church (community) to become better people, not because
>they are better people. No doubt, I don't know for sure there is a God.
>I have lots of questions, but I see things every day that I can't explain
>and feel it didn't just happen.
What sorts of things are you witness to on a daily basis that you
cannot explain? Personally, if I am witness to an occurence that I
cannot explain to myself, I seek out someone who may have the
knowledge to explain it to me--or I google the event.
> I am one of the masses and am not smart
>enough to know on my own. I was raised by Christians and attended church
>ever Sunday until I was 12. I know some people that are simple, selfless,
>God loving people that I admire a great deal. I choose to go with what
>those people believe because I have seen what it did for them.
>>Even though I have many questions, I would say that if the Romans came
>today and asked me to denounce Christ or die, I would choose the latter.
Why did you stop going to church after your 12th birthday? For what
its worth, I know selfless, simple, generous people who are atheists.
Personally, I have no preference for what such a person believes in, I
am sure that knowing them, regardless of their religious beliefs, will
enrich my life.
>>It surely
>> does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that cooperation is
>> extremely beneficial to mankind. The Neanderthals had this figured
>> out ten's of thousands of years ago.
>>
>> The practical purpose of religion is providing a set of rules that
>> all should abide by. These rules are set in place to in order to
>> ensure that the weakest are not overrun by the strongest. The rules
>> encourage cooperation in order to guarantee continuity. Today, we
>> call this set of rules the law. You can be a law-abiding citizen,
>> strive for the betterment of mankind, and promote goodwill without
>> believing in a supreme being.
>>
>
>True, but organized religion adds another layer and strengthens society.
Sorry, I don't agree here. Why I don't agree woluld take too long
to wirte, however.
>> Since this thread was about Christmas, I will add that the spirit of
>> X-mas is a good thing. Relegating x-mas to the commercial product
>> that is has become is downright shameful. As an atheist, I would
>> like to wish all RGPer's peace on earth and goodwill to man this
>> holiday season, and all seasone hereafter.
>>
>> David
>
>Thanks for your pleasant response
You are quite welcome.
David
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 11:58:02
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 20 2006 10:27 AM, David wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:05:44 -0800, "Will_gamble"
> <will_gamble2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 20 2006 6:48 AM, David wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> My preference is that people are concerned about their actions in
> >> relatinship to other people--not some supreme being. You do not have
> >> a clear understanding of atheism, Will.
I agree. Organized religion used to give those guidelines to children
like myself during the formative years. Think about small communities in
the bible belt years ago. There was an ongoing peer pressure to be in
church on Sunday. That meant your kids were in Sunday school and Ms Bee
was teaching them about 'do unto others as you would have them do unto
you' and all the things Jesus said. It was an organized method to give
kids plain and simple guidelines to live by during their formative years.
What do they get now? Nintendo and Play Station? Christianity and
Christians are not perfect, but if you can look at the structure without
getting hung up on supreme beings and the like, it is a positive way to
train children. Whether they are trained by a church or by what ever they
encounter at the time, they reflect that source to some degree. I don't
care if others believe in a supreme being or after life, but if everybody
had on WWJD bracelet and seriously tried to conduct themselves like Jesus,
we could save a lot of money on police. People are tearing down a system
that is flawed but works better than nothing, which is what they are
replacing it with.
Where do kids get the equivalent of Sunday School life guidelines today?
Don't tell me from their parents. My wife is a second grade school
teacher and all parents want to do is heap expectations on the school
system for raising their children.
> >
> >If you will look back through anything I have written, I don't think you
> >will find one comment concerning my opinion of atheism. If that is what
> >you believe and are comfortable with that, I am glad for you. I asked a
> >simple question about atheist and Christmas, because they didn't seem to
> >go together. Santa being imaginary and Christ being imaginary to atheist.
>
> First of all, I was simply replyingto the post that I quoted. No
> where have you read that I don't believe Jesus Christ ever existed.
> Personally, I believe that he did exist, I just don't elevate him to
> the status of a supreme being. There have been many great
> philosophers througout history and he may certainly take his place
> amongst them. I don't have to agree with everything he said, though.
>
> >> Not believing in a supreme
> >> being does not meant that atheists believe in being evil.
> >
> >I understand. I have know some atheists that were far better people than
> >I. People go to church (community) to become better people, not because
> >they are better people. No doubt, I don't know for sure there is a God.
> >I have lots of questions, but I see things every day that I can't explain
> >and feel it didn't just happen.
>
> What sorts of things are you witness to on a daily basis that you
> cannot explain? Personally, if I am witness to an occurence that I
> cannot explain to myself, I seek out someone who may have the
> knowledge to explain it to me--or I google the event.
>
Practically everything that has to do with humans, animals, and our
environment. Love, sadness, and all other emotions. Way too many
things that nobody can explain, not even Google.
The great thing about faith is that if you have it, you don't really have
to explain it to anybody.
> > I am one of the masses and am not smart
> >enough to know on my own. I was raised by Christians and attended church
> >ever Sunday until I was 12. I know some people that are simple, selfless,
> >God loving people that I admire a great deal. I choose to go with what
> >those people believe because I have seen what it did for them.
> >>Even though I have many questions, I would say that if the Romans came
> >today and asked me to denounce Christ or die, I would choose the latter.
>
> Why did you stop going to church after your 12th birthday? For what
> its worth, I know selfless, simple, generous people who are atheists.
> Personally, I have no preference for what such a person believes in, I
> am sure that knowing them, regardless of their religious beliefs, will
> enrich my life.
>
I didn't stop, I just didn't go every Sunday after I could make a choice.
It seemed like the thing to do at the time. Then between teenage years
and late adulthood, I would go in spurts. I am not a hell fire and brim
stone Baptist and the guys on TV doing the faith healing embarrass me. I
am a Methodist converted to a Catholic that believes in God but doesn't
work hard enough at being a Christian.
I think heaven or hell is just your feelings about yourself when you die.
The truth will set you free in other words. If you are still holding your
breath every time the phone rings worrying who it might be and what they
might say, that would put you in hell in my opinion. Not literally, but
it would mean you were probably living a bad life and that you would be
dying in an unsettled state. This is just a simple example. I think that
is why confession is important. It doesn't have to be to a priest, just
the people involved.
> >>It surely
> >> does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that cooperation is
> >> extremely beneficial to mankind. The Neanderthals had this figured
> >> out ten's of thousands of years ago.
> >>
> >> The practical purpose of religion is providing a set of rules that
> >> all should abide by. These rules are set in place to in order to
> >> ensure that the weakest are not overrun by the strongest. The rules
> >> encourage cooperation in order to guarantee continuity. Today, we
> >> call this set of rules the law. You can be a law-abiding citizen,
> >> strive for the betterment of mankind, and promote goodwill without
> >> believing in a supreme being.
> >>
> >
> >True, but organized religion adds another layer and strengthens society.
>
> Sorry, I don't agree here. Why I don't agree woluld take too long
> to wirte, however.
>
Every Sunday before reading of the Gospel, the Priest announces for the
children to come up and go to Children's church. All these children come
together smiling an giggling in their Sunday best and go to make things
and learn about what Jesus taught. It will make your heart soar like an
eagle to see them, but 'How great thou art' does that to me too.
------
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|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 21:43:32
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 20 2006 1:58 PM, Will_gamble wrote:
> am a Methodist converted to a Catholic that believes in God but doesn't
> work hard enough at being a Christian.
>
>
> > >>
> > >> The practical purpose of religion is providing a set of rules that
> > >> all should abide by.
And you think the Catholic Church does this?
>
> Every Sunday before reading of the Gospel, the Priest announces for the
> children to come up and go to Children's church.
That sounds like a real good plan.
Do you ever read a newspaper?
Why in the world would any rational person want kids within 1000 yards of a
catholic priest?
First you said you were a chirstian now you say you're a member of a criminal
organization dedicated to the use of terroism to gain political power over
protestants and to sexaul abuse of children as some sort of religious ritual.
You are an evil sonofabitch.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 18:01:10
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
> You are an evil sonofabitch.
>
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
Evil... that is a word I might associate with somebody like Jeffery Dahmer.
I hope you get better, you are clearly not doing well.
I don't think you know my mother or her history.
_____________________________________________________________________
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|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 14:39:41
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 20 2006 8:05 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> If you will look back through anything I have written, I don't think you
> will find one comment concerning my opinion of atheism. If that is what
> you believe and are comfortable with that, I am glad for you. I asked a
> simple question about atheist and Christmas, because they didn't seem to
> go together. Santa being imaginary and Christ being imaginary to atheist.
Wow. Right there you express an opinion of atheism.
The whole concept of atheism is one developed by religiouis nutcases.
You seem to think that atheism is some kind of uniform beleive system, which is
just absurd. Chiristianity isn't a uniform bewleive system. Some christians
think christians (Mormons, Jehovahs Witness, 7th day adventist) aren't really
christians.
>
> > Not believing in a supreme
> > being does not meant that atheists believe in being evil.
>
> I understand. I have know some atheists that were far better people than
> I. People go to church (community) to become better people, not because
> they are better people.
Some people go to church for that reason. But certianly not all of them.
No doubt, I don't know for sure there is a God.
> I have lots of questions, but I see things every day that I can't explain
> and feel it didn't just happen. I am one of the masses and am not smart
> enough to know on my own.
So your solution is to invent some nonsense explanation because learning things
you don't understand is just too hard. Okay.
>
> True, but organized religion adds another layer and strengthens society.
So do bowling leagues.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 07:00:11
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 20 2006 8:39 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
> On Dec 20 2006 8:05 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > If you will look back through anything I have written, I don't think you
> > will find one comment concerning my opinion of atheism. If that is what
> > you believe and are comfortable with that, I am glad for you. I asked a
> > simple question about atheist and Christmas, because they didn't seem to
> > go together. Santa being imaginary and Christ being imaginary to atheist.
>
>
> Wow. Right there you express an opinion of atheism.
>
> The whole concept of atheism is one developed by religiouis nutcases.
>
> You seem to think that atheism is some kind of uniform beleive system, which
is
> just absurd. Chiristianity isn't a uniform bewleive system. Some christians
> think christians (Mormons, Jehovahs Witness, 7th day adventist) aren't really
> christians.
>
> >
> > > Not believing in a supreme
> > > being does not meant that atheists believe in being evil.
> >
> > I understand. I have know some atheists that were far better people than
> > I. People go to church (community) to become better people, not because
> > they are better people.
>
> Some people go to church for that reason. But certianly not all of them.
>
> No doubt, I don't know for sure there is a God.
> > I have lots of questions, but I see things every day that I can't explain
> > and feel it didn't just happen. I am one of the masses and am not smart
> > enough to know on my own.
>
> So your solution is to invent some nonsense explanation because learning
things
> you don't understand is just too hard. Okay.
>
I don't believe I invented anything. Make fun of what I say all you want,
I know what I feel and what I have seen. If you have experiences/people
in your life that inspire you and they share your beliefs, great. Mine
just happen to be plan simple and Christian. Why do you feel the need to
ridicule people that believe differently than you?
>
> >
> > True, but organized religion adds another layer and strengthens society.
>
> So do bowling leagues.
>
You must spend a lot of time thinking about bowling.
>
>
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
_____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 09:50:09
From: Ayatollah Yootwiessalreddi
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Jehovah's Witnesses
Christian? Generally assumed so.
No christmas celebration
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 07:39:37
From: Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
I hate Christmas.
buybuybuybuy gimmegimmegimmegimme iwantiwantiwantiwant spendspendspendspend
bah humbug, let's get past this crap holiday and move on. thank goodness
my kids are all grown.
It has nothing, zero, nada, to do with christianity.
On Dec 19 2006 6:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
> Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> them switches and ashes...
>
> You better listen to Arlo... The man is closer to his soul than most of
> us. Tough times bring life into focus.
>
> Arlo, I have some health issues that have been bumming me out... Tinnitus
> and chronic tendinitis, but reading your post about your trials have made
> me realize that I just need to suck it up.
>
> I really admire people who can take the bad beats in life without a whine.
> My daughter has been a juvenile diabetic since she was thirteen. It is
> twenty one years later and I have never heard a 'why me.' There is
> inspiration all around us.
------
brewmaster at brewcam dot com
"Once in awhile you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if
you look at it right" -RH
-----
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|
| | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 08:03:32
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 9:39 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
> I hate Christmas.
>
> buybuybuybuy gimmegimmegimmegimme iwantiwantiwantiwant spendspendspendspend
>
> bah humbug, let's get past this crap holiday and move on. thank goodness
> my kids are all grown.
>
> It has nothing, zero, nada, to do with christianity.
I couldn't agree more about how I feel about the gift giving and pressure
to do so.
I just wondered if Atheist told the big Santa lie and held being good over
their children's head? Kind of a quasi-Christian approach.
--------
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| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 16:50:07
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 10:03 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 9:39 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
> > I hate Christmas.
> >
> > buybuybuybuy gimmegimmegimmegimme iwantiwantiwantiwant spendspendspendspend
> >
> > bah humbug, let's get past this crap holiday and move on. thank goodness
> > my kids are all grown.
> >
> > It has nothing, zero, nada, to do with christianity.
>
> I couldn't agree more about how I feel about the gift giving and pressure
> to do so.
>
> I just wondered if Atheist told the big Santa lie and held being good over
> their children's head? Kind of a quasi-Christian approach.
What big lie? What's the Christian approach?
I was raised in a christian family and the christianity practiced in my family
had nothing to do with the nonsense of Santa Clause or God or Momma or anybody
else won't love you unless you're nice.
The Christian Approach covers such a wide range of nonsense that I don't see how
anybody can think there's anything at all meaningful about your questions.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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| | | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 09:01:08
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 10:50 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> The Christian Approach covers such a wide range of nonsense that I don't see
how
> anybody can think there's anything at all meaningful about your questions.
>
Thank you Gary. Once again it was a simple question looking for a simple
answer. I realize you are not capable of carrying a conversation with a
simpleton. I acknowledge that I have no purpose in life and will now bow
my head and back out of the room.
Please do me a favor in the future and killfile me, I can do without your
input.
Thanks
_____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 19 Dec 18:11:13
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Maybe you could ask god for a suggestion about what to do if you don't want to
read my posts?
On Dec 19 2006 11:01 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 10:50 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
> >
> > The Christian Approach covers such a wide range of nonsense that I don't see
> how
> > anybody can think there's anything at all meaningful about your questions.
> >
>
> Thank you Gary. Once again it was a simple question looking for a simple
> answer. I realize you are not capable of carrying a conversation with a
> simpleton. I acknowledge that I have no purpose in life and will now bow
> my head and back out of the room.
>
> Please do me a favor in the future and killfile me, I can do without your
> input.
>
> Thanks
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 14:18:07
From: ShuffletownKid
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
"Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:k3fl54xfpd.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2006 9:39 AM, Alan Gilbert aka brewmaster wrote:
>
>> I hate Christmas.
>>
>> buybuybuybuy gimmegimmegimmegimme iwantiwantiwantiwant
>> spendspendspendspend
>>
>> bah humbug, let's get past this crap holiday and move on. thank goodness
>> my kids are all grown.
>>
>> It has nothing, zero, nada, to do with christianity.
>
> I couldn't agree more about how I feel about the gift giving and pressure
> to do so.
>
> I just wondered if Atheist told the big Santa lie and held being good over
> their children's head? Kind of a quasi-Christian approach.
>
> --------
I told mine the truth. These things are legends and fairy tales. It's fun to
participate, just like it's fun to go to a Star Trek convention. If you
actually believe it's real it isn't fun, it's a mental problem.
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 15:14:53
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
"Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:hr9l54xjfd.ln2@recgroups.com...
> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
They would celebrate the secular holiday.
>
> Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> them switches and ashes...
I don't tell anyone anything.
Christmas is an excuse to be nice to other people. It's probably largely
based on pagan traditions.
Who cares, it's a time when people allow and expect everyone to be nicer to
each other.
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 15:03:41
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 8:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
I don't understand the question.
>
> Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> them switches and ashes...
What does that have to do with atheism or christianity. I don't think Santa
Clause has much to do with the story of the birth of christ, not atheists or
christians.
I always just thought Santa Clause was an old German folk story and never really
thought past that. I never thought much one way or the other about whether
Santa Clause or Jesus or the Mayflower where real or not. It just didn't seem
much worth thinking about when I was 5 or so. I never had to sign a pledge to
get a Christmas present. Not like having to sign a pledge that I'm not a commie
before I could get a paycheck from LSU.
>
> You better listen to Arlo... The man is closer to his soul than most of
> us. Tough times bring life into focus.
Soul? Give me a break.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
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|
| | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 07:54:06
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 9:03 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 8:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
> I don't understand the question.
>
> >
> > Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> > them switches and ashes...
>
> What does that have to do with atheism or christianity. I don't think Santa
> Clause has much to do with the story of the birth of christ, not atheists or
> christians.
>
It was a question... Can you just answer it or butt out.
Christians celebrate the birth of Christ via Christmas. Atheist think
that God and Christ don't exist. If and how do atheist celebrate
Christmas. Do atheist tell there children there is a Santa? Do atheist
use a good/bad reward system for Christmas?
> I always just thought Santa Clause was an old German folk story and never
really
> thought past that.
And I have some swamp land in Arizona. You have never in your entire life
'never thought past that' That is probably the most impossible thing for
me to believe about you.
>I never thought much one way or the other about whether
> Santa Clause or Jesus or the Mayflower where real or not. It just didn't
seem
> much worth thinking about when I was 5 or so. I never had to sign a pledge
to
> get a Christmas present. Not like having to sign a pledge that I'm not a
commie
> before I could get a paycheck from LSU.
>
This is not about the children of atheist and what they think, but how
atheist parents participate or do not participate in Christmas.
> >
> > You better listen to Arlo... The man is closer to his soul than most of
> > us. Tough times bring life into focus.
>
> Soul? Give me a break.
You got it. Which limb?
I thought you had some soul too Gary... You seem to say you have been to
the mountain top.
>
>
>
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
_____________________________________________________________________
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| | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:38:28
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
"Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:uhel54x3od.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2006 9:03 AM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2006 8:33 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> > > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
> >
> > I don't understand the question.
> >
> > >
> > > Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will
leave
> > > them switches and ashes...
> >
> > What does that have to do with atheism or christianity. I don't think
Santa
> > Clause has much to do with the story of the birth of christ, not
atheists or
> > christians.
> >
> It was a question... Can you just answer it or butt out.
>
> Christians celebrate the birth of Christ via Christmas
No, Christians celebrate pagan traditions and pretend there's some reason to
think Nazerath was born in december.
. Atheist think
> that God and Christ don't exist. If and how do atheist celebrate
> Christmas.
They spend money and buy gifts.
|
| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 06:47:51
From: pausem
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Will_gamble wrote:
> So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
The christians stole christmas of the pagans a couple of hundred years
ago
|
| | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 06:58:20
From: pausem
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
estebanAA wrote:
> even i am getting tired of all this . there is a God you dont want to belive ok
> fine . lets move on gl estebanAA
>
I know there is... and a Santa Claus
|
| | |
Date: 19 Dec 14:51:29
From: estebanAA
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
even i am getting tired of all this . there is a God you dont want to belive ok
fine . lets move on gl estebanAA
On Dec 19 2006 8:47 AM, pausem wrote:
> Will_gamble wrote:
> > So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
> >
>
> The christians stole christmas of the pagans a couple of hundred years
> ago
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 07:59:03
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 8:51 AM, estebanAA wrote:
> even i am getting tired of all this . there is a God you dont want to belive
ok
> fine . lets move on gl estebanAA
>
Read any of my posts on my religious beliefs and get back to me with an
apology.
Feel free to skip to another thread.
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| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 23:16:17
From: Patti Beadles
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
In article <hr9l54xjfd.ln2@recgroups.com >,
Will_gamble <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote:
>So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
Christmas is actually multiple holidays.
One is the religious one that you seem to be asking about.
One is the pagan solstice holiday that was appropriated (e.g.
christmas trees.)
A third is the commercial christmas-- Santa Claus, presents,
etc.
I don't personally care much for christmas because I don't buy
the religious aspects of it, and I don't much care for the
commercial version either. I make a nod to it, though, mostly
due to family obligations.
>Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
>them switches and ashes...
I didn't realize Santa Claus was a religious creation.
-P
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA
|
| | |
Date: 20 Dec
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 5:16 PM, Patti Beadles wrote:
> In article ,
> Will_gamble wrote:
> >So how do the atheist relate to Christmas.
>
> Christmas is actually multiple holidays.
>
> One is the religious one that you seem to be asking about.
>
> One is the pagan solstice holiday that was appropriated (e.g.
> christmas trees.)
>
> A third is the commercial christmas-- Santa Claus, presents,
> etc.
>
> I don't personally care much for christmas because I don't buy
> the religious aspects of it, and I don't much care for the
> commercial version either. I make a nod to it, though, mostly
> due to family obligations.
>
>
> >Surely you don't tell your kids they need to be good or Santa will leave
> >them switches and ashes...
>
> I didn't realize Santa Claus was a religious creation.
God created all things. Except Oakland, of course. Satan created SF and
Oakland is an abandoned test site.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 09:07:37
From: MysteriAce
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
> God created all things. Except Oakland, of course. Satan created SF and
> Oakland is an abandoned test site.
>
Gary:
That is the most accurate description of Oakland I've ever heard. :)
>
> Gary Carson
> http://www.garycarson.com
~ MysteriAce
"Ashes and diamonds
Foe and friend
We were all equal in the end"
________________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 14:43:50
From: Bob T.
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
> > raping every day?
> >
>
> My opinion is that this type of behavior is consistent with people that do
> not embrace the teachings of Christ.
Wow! You do realize that your opinion is not in any way backed up by
facts? There is no greater number of Jewish muggers than Christian
muggers. There is no surplus of murderers among atheists. There is no
correlation between crime statistics and religious persuasion.
- Bob T.
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Date: 20 Dec
From: Gary Carson
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 4:43 PM, Bob T. wrote:
> Will_gamble wrote:
> >
> > > In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
> > > raping every day?
> > >
> >
> > My opinion is that this type of behavior is consistent with people that do
> > not embrace the teachings of Christ.
>
> Wow! You do realize that your opinion is not in any way backed up by
> facts? There is no greater number of Jewish muggers than Christian
> muggers. There is no surplus of murderers among atheists. There is no
> correlation between crime statistics and religious persuasion.
>
> - Bob T.
There is a negative correlation between crime rates and rates of church
membership.
But there's probably also a negative correlation between crime rates bowling
league membership.
There's generally a negative correlation between any way to measure social
cohesion and crime rates. It's not religion itself, in fact there's reason so
think that the correlation between strong, controlling religious beleive and
crime is positive. Very controlling religion tends to define a lot of normal
behavior as deviant.
Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com
_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 16:58:55
From: MelB
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
> In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
> raping every day?
We don't want people driving their cars at 100 mph on our city streets.
So, we do the reasonable thing. We pass laws prohibiting it and
punishing it. We also (in principle) look down socially upon people who
violate the law.
What we don't do, despite Chrftian, Jewish, and Muslim claims to the
contrary, is consult a religious text (Bible, Talmud, Koran, etc)for
divine guidance as to whether some god will punish those who speed, and
then pray for their souls. And of course, persecute them, just to let
this god know that we are on his side (he's too dumb to know).
Why is is so difficult for religious folks to see that what we do with
respect to murder, theft, and slander (aka "false witness") comes from
the same source, which is simply our collective need and desire for a
sane, orderly, safe society. We pass laws to prohibit these things. No
god needed.
And that is why, in fact, atheists and others refrain from these things.
Oh yes, they also behave decently because it's the decent thing to do.
Just like good Christians and good Jews and good Muslims and ...
The various religions have done a very effective job of pursuading many
people, most in fact, that they not not decent people but need to be
punished unless they do as their religion prescribes. How pitiful.
A certain Alabama judge to the contrary, theology is irrelevant for
deciding what is good behavior and passing laws to define it and
encourage it.
Theology becomes unfortunately relevant when theology leads to
aggressive and wrong behavior, be it in crsades, inquisitions,
holocausts, suicide bombing, or the many horrors lasciviously portrayed
in Leviticus.
If religion (of any sort) is emotionally comforting to those who fear
the world and hope to gain through prayer some minimal degree of control
(which never comes) so be it. But please leave the rest of us alone. And
leave each other alone, too. Amen.
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| |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 11:50:05
From: pausem
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 11:03 AM, pausem wrote:
>
> > Will_gamble wrote:
>
> Can you think big picture? It usually starts around 40 years of age.
>
Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
raping every day?
Do you really think I don't do these things only because they are
against the law?
I think it's you that needs to look at the big fuccking picture.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:21:37
From: thepixelfreak
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On 2006-12-19 11:50:05 -0800, "pausem" <paulsemple@gmail.com > said:
>
> Will_gamble wrote:
>> On Dec 19 2006 11:03 AM, pausem wrote:
>>
>>> Will_gamble wrote:
>
>>
>> Can you think big picture? It usually starts around 40 years of age.
>>
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
> because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
>
> In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
> raping every day?
I just ordered my Kill/Rape/Pillage kit on ebay. Even comes with a
horned Viking helmet and a club.. I got a discount by using my Retired
Atheists of America card. See, there are advantages to being an Atheist!
--
thepixelfreak
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 12:15:08
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 1:50 PM, pausem wrote:
> Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
> because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
>
Most of the restraint I have shown in my life had to do with my belief
that there is a God and I will be held accountable.
> In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
> raping every day?
>
My opinion is that this type of behavior is consistent with people that do
not embrace the teachings of Christ.
> Do you really think I don't do these things only because they are
> against the law?
>
I have no idea what motivates you to do anything.
> I think it's you that needs to look at the big fuccking picture.
Profanity laced insults are always the best way to make a point..... in
high school.
---
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
|
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 00:46:50
From: Ron Sperber
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 1:50 PM, pausem wrote:
>
>
>>Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
>>because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
>>
>
>
> Most of the restraint I have shown in my life had to do with my belief
> that there is a God and I will be held accountable.
>
Then I feel sorry for you. It seems to me from that statement that you
only refrain from evil because you are afraid that God will punish you.
I think it would be better to have an internal sense of what is right
and wrong. I personally try to live my life by what I believe to be
right. I don't always succeed perhaps, but that is my goal. I don't need
a God to hold me accountable. If I misunderstood your point, then I
apologize.
>
>>In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
>>raping every day?
>>
>
>
> My opinion is that this type of behavior is consistent with people that do
> not embrace the teachings of Christ.
>
Embracing the "teachings of Christ" is pretty vague. Proscribing murder,
robbery, rape, and other violent crimes is hardly unique to Christian
teaching. Just about every civilized society in history, Christian and
non-Christian has made those acts criminal and punished people who
committed them. I don't believe in Christianity, heck, I don't really
believe Jesus of Nazareth even existed. I still find murder wrong,
robbery wrong, and rape wrong. (Many other things too, but these were
mentioned). It doesn't require belief in a supreme being of any kind,
let alone a specific belief in Christianity to believe that those things
are wrong. Now those are part of the teachings of Christianity of
course, but they don't comprise all of those teachings.
>
>>Do you really think I don't do these things only because they are
>>against the law?
>>
>
>
> I have no idea what motivates you to do anything.
>
>
>>I think it's you that needs to look at the big fuccking picture.
>
>
> Profanity laced insults are always the best way to make a point..... in
> high school.
>
> ---
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
>
>
|
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:41:53
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On Dec 19 2006 11:46 PM, Ron Sperber wrote:
> Will_gamble wrote:
> > On Dec 19 2006 1:50 PM, pausem wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
> >>because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
> >>
> >
> >
> > Most of the restraint I have shown in my life had to do with my belief
> > that there is a God and I will be held accountable.
> >
>
> Then I feel sorry for you. It seems to me from that statement that you
> only refrain from evil because you are afraid that God will punish you.
> I think it would be better to have an internal sense of what is right
> and wrong. I personally try to live my life by what I believe to be
> right. I don't always succeed perhaps, but that is my goal. I don't need
> a God to hold me accountable. If I misunderstood your point, then I
> apologize.
Do you believe that if you get drunk and drive that you might go to jail?
Is there anything, parking, speeding, or running a stop sign that you
might otherwise do if you weren't aware of the consequences?
I just happen to believe in a bigger system. Save your pity for someone
who really needs it.
____________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 18:01:26
From: Ron Sperber
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
Will_gamble wrote:
> On Dec 19 2006 11:46 PM, Ron Sperber wrote:
>
>
>>Will_gamble wrote:
>>
>>>On Dec 19 2006 1:50 PM, pausem wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
>>>>because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Most of the restraint I have shown in my life had to do with my belief
>>>that there is a God and I will be held accountable.
>>>
>>
>>Then I feel sorry for you. It seems to me from that statement that you
>>only refrain from evil because you are afraid that God will punish you.
>>I think it would be better to have an internal sense of what is right
>>and wrong. I personally try to live my life by what I believe to be
>>right. I don't always succeed perhaps, but that is my goal. I don't need
>>a God to hold me accountable. If I misunderstood your point, then I
>>apologize.
>
>
>
> Do you believe that if you get drunk and drive that you might go to jail?
> Is there anything, parking, speeding, or running a stop sign that you
> might otherwise do if you weren't aware of the consequences?
>
Err, I can't think of many things I don't do solely because of the
"consequences" of the law. I try not to drink and drive, not because I
might go to jail, but because I know it makes me dangerous on the road.
I suppose there are some things I might do otherwise without the legal
consequences, but honestly, there are few of those, and most of those
are more about the inconvenience of getting around the law as opposed to
being worried about being caught. Other than that, well, if you want to
compare my stopping at a stop sign when there is no other traffic
because I want to avoid the possibility of a ticket to needing to worry
about how God will judge you to prevent you from committing murder, then
that's your right, but they seem on completely different levels to me.
>
> I just happen to believe in a bigger system. Save your pity for someone
> who really needs it.
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
>
|
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:45:40
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
"Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:crtl54x8ke.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2006 1:50 PM, pausem wrote:
>
> > Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
> > because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
> >
>
> Most of the restraint I have shown in my life had to do with my belief
> that there is a God and I will be held accountable.
Most of mine comes from simply being decent.
There's no afterlife, I am the sum of my memories, and I don't want to
remember abusing anyone, so I don't do it.
Except in usenet wars, of course.
>
> > In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
> > raping every day?
> >
>
> My opinion is that this type of behavior is consistent with people that do
> not embrace the teachings of Christ.
Your opinion is that of A moron then > > I think it's you that needs to
look at the big fuccking picture.
>
> Profanity laced insults are always the best way to make a point..... in
> high school.
>
People too stupid to realize that it's just a fucking word need help.
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2006 05:15:12
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
> Most of mine comes from simply being decent.
> There's no afterlife, I am the sum of my memories, and I don't want to
> remember abusing anyone, so I don't do it.
>
> Except in usenet wars, of course.
>
So you see this discussion as a war?
>
> >
>
> Your opinion is that of A moron then > > I think it's you that needs to
> look at the big fuccking picture.
> >
> People too stupid to realize that it's just a fucking word need help.
You are a shining example to us all of the kind of person we hope to
encounter each day. Why would anybody care to be around such a bitter
person?
________________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2006 13:29:31
From: thepixelfreak
Subject: Re: Athiest and Christmas
|
On 2006-12-19 12:15:08 -0800, "Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com > said:
> On Dec 19 2006 1:50 PM, pausem wrote:
>
>> Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason people do good is
>> because of a fear of what may happen to them in an afterlife?
>>
>
> Most of the restraint I have shown in my life had to do with my belief
> that there is a God and I will be held accountable.
That's because you are a mindless fool.
>
>> In that case what do you think stops Atheists killing, robbing and
>> raping every day?
>>
>
> My opinion is that this type of behavior is consistent with people that do
> not embrace the teachings of Christ.
I guess David Koresh is a fine example.. But I digress. Oh, what about
the Spanish Inquisition?
--
thepixelfreak
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