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Date: 11 Jan 2009 09:07:58
From: Stephen Jacobs
Subject: (no real content) This is ridiculous
Played in a little tournament. Out of about 35 hands, I had aces, queens,
tens, treys once each and 8-s three times. Lost every single one. (Folded
the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK flop and
two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. ) Still trying to play small ball,
so the opening raises were a bit light.

Just moaning in public.






 
Date: 11 Jan 2009 18:34:47
From:
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11, 8:27=A0pm, "brewmaster" <a1...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Jan 11 2009 4:51 PM, johnnycoconutsftp wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 11, 9:07=A0am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Played in a little tournament. =A0Out of about 35 hands, I had aces, =
queens,
> > > tens, treys once each and 8-s three times. =A0Lost every single one. =
=A0(Folded
> > > the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK f=
lop
> and
> > > two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. ) =A0Still trying to play sm=
all
> ball,
> > > so the opening raises were a bit light.
>
> > > Just moaning in public.
>
> > Small ball works well, but the unwritten truth is that you're really
> > playing cautiously and surviving to get your double up hand. =A0You
> > can't really build a threatening stack with it without a big hand
> > along the way, at least not in a shorter-level tournament. I've been
> > doing it for about a year (all live), and it generally works, but if
> > you don't get that double up in time you're dead. =A0I'm generally neve=
r
> > out early, and if I get past the middle I can usually go deep.
>
> > I think the main difference between real world poker and what DN talks
> > about in his book is that he's talking about $10K buy-in tournaments,
> > where someone has enough sense to give you credit for a hand when you
> > haven't pushed one for an hour, so that gives you more opportunities
> > to play poker if you don't have the cards. In the tournaments most of
> > us play on a day to day basis, that's just not true. =A0Most opponents
> > couldn't tell you if you had folded every hand for an hour or had
> > played the last 20 straight. =A0So I think small ball in these serves a
> > different purpose - patience and survival until you get the cards, not
> > image and pot control.
>
> Aces and queens qualifies as "getting the cards". =A0In small tourneys yo=
u
> don't play small ball with these, you go for a double or broke with these
> hands.
>
> Brew
> --
> Email me here:http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk
>
> -------=A0
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com- Hide qu=
oted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Agreed. I wasn't really commenting on his cards or how he played
them, just on the small ball concept. I think it's surprising that it
isn't discussed much (at least here). Ok, maybe "surpising" that a
poker concept isn't discussed much here is a bit of an overstatement,
but you get my point ;)

While small ball sounds simple at first blush, it really is much
harder to play versus just realizing you're a 55-45 favorite and
pushing/praying. A lot of kids these days who play 20 or 30
tournaments a day online are four betting with A-J and hoping that the
math gives them a 1% edge, and they think they're playing poker, when
they're really playing Roshambo and hoping they come out ahead at the
end.

Now, 100-1, someone who's not thinking will say that they'll take a
55-45 advantage all day long and they'll win over the long run. And
what they'd be missing is that with an average tournament rake of 10%,
taxes, tipping if live, and other expenses, if they do that without
getting lucky more than their fair share, they're guaranteed to go
broke.






 
Date: 11 Jan 2009 16:51:06
From:
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11, 9:07=A0am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net > wrote:
> Played in a little tournament. =A0Out of about 35 hands, I had aces, quee=
ns,
> tens, treys once each and 8-s three times. =A0Lost every single one. =A0(=
Folded
> the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK flop =
and
> two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. ) =A0Still trying to play small =
ball,
> so the opening raises were a bit light.
>
> Just moaning in public.


Small ball works well, but the unwritten truth is that you're really
playing cautiously and surviving to get your double up hand. You
can't really build a threatening stack with it without a big hand
along the way, at least not in a shorter-level tournament. I've been
doing it for about a year (all live), and it generally works, but if
you don't get that double up in time you're dead. I'm generally never
out early, and if I get past the middle I can usually go deep.

I think the main difference between real world poker and what DN talks
about in his book is that he's talking about $10K buy-in tournaments,
where someone has enough sense to give you credit for a hand when you
haven't pushed one for an hour, so that gives you more opportunities
to play poker if you don't have the cards. In the tournaments most of
us play on a day to day basis, that's just not true. Most opponents
couldn't tell you if you had folded every hand for an hour or had
played the last 20 straight. So I think small ball in these serves a
different purpose - patience and survival until you get the cards, not
image and pot control.




  
Date: 11 Jan 2009 18:51:49
From: hanks
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11 2009 4:51 PM, johnnycoconutsftp wrote:

> On Jan 11, 9:07 am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Played in a little tournament.  Out of about 35 hands, I had aces, queens,
> > tens, treys once each and 8-s three times.  Lost every single one.  (Folded
> > the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK flop
and
> > two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. )  Still trying to play small
ball,
> > so the opening raises were a bit light.
> >
> > Just moaning in public.
>
>
> Small ball works well, but the unwritten truth is that you're really
> playing cautiously and surviving to get your double up hand. You
> can't really build a threatening stack with it without a big hand
> along the way, at least not in a shorter-level tournament. I've been
> doing it for about a year (all live), and it generally works, but if
> you don't get that double up in time you're dead. I'm generally never
> out early, and if I get past the middle I can usually go deep.
>
> I think the main difference between real world poker and what DN talks
> about in his book is that he's talking about $10K buy-in tournaments,
> where someone has enough sense to give you credit for a hand when you
> haven't pushed one for an hour, so that gives you more opportunities
> to play poker if you don't have the cards. In the tournaments most of
> us play on a day to day basis, that's just not true. Most opponents
> couldn't tell you if you had folded every hand for an hour or had
> played the last 20 straight. So I think small ball in these serves a
> different purpose - patience and survival until you get the cards, not
> image and pot control.

I think you are right, Johnny. That is my experience also.
hanks

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Date: 11 Jan 2009 17:27:48
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11 2009 4:51 PM, johnnycoconutsftp wrote:

> On Jan 11, 9:07 am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Played in a little tournament.  Out of about 35 hands, I had aces, queens,
> > tens, treys once each and 8-s three times.  Lost every single one.  (Folded
> > the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK flop
and
> > two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. )  Still trying to play small
ball,
> > so the opening raises were a bit light.
> >
> > Just moaning in public.
>
>
> Small ball works well, but the unwritten truth is that you're really
> playing cautiously and surviving to get your double up hand. You
> can't really build a threatening stack with it without a big hand
> along the way, at least not in a shorter-level tournament. I've been
> doing it for about a year (all live), and it generally works, but if
> you don't get that double up in time you're dead. I'm generally never
> out early, and if I get past the middle I can usually go deep.
>
> I think the main difference between real world poker and what DN talks
> about in his book is that he's talking about $10K buy-in tournaments,
> where someone has enough sense to give you credit for a hand when you
> haven't pushed one for an hour, so that gives you more opportunities
> to play poker if you don't have the cards. In the tournaments most of
> us play on a day to day basis, that's just not true. Most opponents
> couldn't tell you if you had folded every hand for an hour or had
> played the last 20 straight. So I think small ball in these serves a
> different purpose - patience and survival until you get the cards, not
> image and pot control.

Aces and queens qualifies as "getting the cards". In small tourneys you
don't play small ball with these, you go for a double or broke with these
hands.


Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

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Date: 11 Jan 2009 19:04:22
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11 2009 8:27 PM, brewmaster wrote:

> On Jan 11 2009 4:51 PM, johnnycoconutsftp wrote:
>
> > On Jan 11, 9:07 am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > Played in a little tournament.  Out of about 35 hands, I had aces,
queens,
> > > tens, treys once each and 8-s three times.  Lost every single one.
 (Folded
> > > the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK flop
> and
> > > two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. )  Still trying to play small
> ball,
> > > so the opening raises were a bit light.
> > >
> > > Just moaning in public.
> >
> >
> > Small ball works well, but the unwritten truth is that you're really
> > playing cautiously and surviving to get your double up hand. You
> > can't really build a threatening stack with it without a big hand
> > along the way, at least not in a shorter-level tournament. I've been
> > doing it for about a year (all live), and it generally works, but if
> > you don't get that double up in time you're dead. I'm generally never
> > out early, and if I get past the middle I can usually go deep.
> >
> > I think the main difference between real world poker and what DN talks
> > about in his book is that he's talking about $10K buy-in tournaments,
> > where someone has enough sense to give you credit for a hand when you
> > haven't pushed one for an hour, so that gives you more opportunities
> > to play poker if you don't have the cards. In the tournaments most of
> > us play on a day to day basis, that's just not true. Most opponents
> > couldn't tell you if you had folded every hand for an hour or had
> > played the last 20 straight. So I think small ball in these serves a
> > different purpose - patience and survival until you get the cards, not
> > image and pot control.
>
> Aces and queens qualifies as "getting the cards". In small tourneys you
> don't play small ball with these, you go for a double or broke with these
> hands.
>
>
> Brew
> --
> Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

You can double up with Queens? How? Where? Teach me. Please?

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Date: 11 Jan 2009 20:04:09
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11 2009 7:04 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:

> On Jan 11 2009 8:27 PM, brewmaster wrote:
>
> > On Jan 11 2009 4:51 PM, johnnycoconutsftp wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 11, 9:07 am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > Played in a little tournament.  Out of about 35 hands, I had aces,
> queens,
> > > > tens, treys once each and 8-s three times.  Lost every single one.
>  (Folded
> > > > the Qs to a raise with A and K on board, the 3s to a crowd with JJK
flop
> > and
> > > > two of the 8s, I don't exactly remember. )  Still trying to play small
> > ball,
> > > > so the opening raises were a bit light.
> > > >
> > > > Just moaning in public.
> > >
> > >
> > > Small ball works well, but the unwritten truth is that you're really
> > > playing cautiously and surviving to get your double up hand. You
> > > can't really build a threatening stack with it without a big hand
> > > along the way, at least not in a shorter-level tournament. I've been
> > > doing it for about a year (all live), and it generally works, but if
> > > you don't get that double up in time you're dead. I'm generally never
> > > out early, and if I get past the middle I can usually go deep.
> > >
> > > I think the main difference between real world poker and what DN talks
> > > about in his book is that he's talking about $10K buy-in tournaments,
> > > where someone has enough sense to give you credit for a hand when you
> > > haven't pushed one for an hour, so that gives you more opportunities
> > > to play poker if you don't have the cards. In the tournaments most of
> > > us play on a day to day basis, that's just not true. Most opponents
> > > couldn't tell you if you had folded every hand for an hour or had
> > > played the last 20 straight. So I think small ball in these serves a
> > > different purpose - patience and survival until you get the cards, not
> > > image and pot control.
> >
> > Aces and queens qualifies as "getting the cards". In small tourneys you
> > don't play small ball with these, you go for a double or broke with these
> > hands.
> >
> >
> > Brew
> > --
> > Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk
>
> You can double up with Queens? How? Where? Teach me. Please?

Not on Stars. Queens will lose to A4o every time. But everywhere else
they are a good hand...


Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

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Date: 11 Jan 2009 21:39:08
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: (no real content) This is ridiculous
On Jan 11 2009 10:04 PM, brewmaster wrote:

> Not on Stars. Queens will lose to A4o every time. But everywhere else
> they are a good hand...

Rea...sorry, can't bring myself to do it this time.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"You...are just as funny...as Popinjay is" --Will in New Haven

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