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Date: 15 Jan 2009 16:55:55
From: RichD
Subject: high vs. split poker
Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
or high?

And how about Omaha?





 
Date: 28 Jan 2009 17:47:48
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
A stud player moving into a holdem game has a great advantage over a
holdem player moving into a stud game.







On Jan 17, 4:33=EF=BF=BDpm, Deadmoney Walking <tbones...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 17, 3:42=EF=BF=BDam, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Deadmoney Walking" <tbones...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:6de31b84-0885-47c0-98f4-df32d1ac975a@r40g2000yqj.googlegroups.com..=
.
> > On Jan 16, 12:56 pm, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > The big problem with low-stakes stud is a high level of coordinated p=
lay
> > > among regulars (even in the absence of actual team play, by the time =
you
> > > figure out who plays soft against whom and who is permanently at war =
with
> > > whom, it's time for a break). That gets less serious in the middle li=
mits,
> > > so I'd send an expert player to a $40/80 stud game.
>
> > I so didn't follow the last part. =EF=BF=BDSo should I learn to play 7 =
card
> > stud?
>
> > yeah, learn to play 7-card stud. =EF=BF=BDIt won't completely go away a=
ny time soon.
> > Play smaller games to build your hand-reading skills as much as for any
> > other reason. =EF=BF=BDRead Roy West's "42 Lessons" book (everyone who =
plays poker
> > ought to read it sooner or later). =EF=BF=BDThe Sklansky/Malmuth/Zee bo=
ok is a nice
> > follow-on for people who are mostly hold'em players. =EF=BF=BDThere's n=
o hurry to
> > read Chip Reese's chapter in S/S (it's great, but you need lots of
> > specifically stud experience to get the benefit of it). =EF=BF=BDOnce y=
ou're
> > comfortable with stud, keep track of how the mid-limit stud games are g=
oing
> > in a house you're playing in. There'll come a day when some game in the
> > $15/30 to $40/80 range will have a fair number of unfamiliar faces in i=
t,
> > and a lot of (say, a third of contested pots) pots 3-or-more handed on =
6th
> > street. That is a good time to take a shot at playing with seriously
> > mercenary intent.
>
> > What I heavy-handedly suggested is that in $5/10 and $10/20 stud games
> > pretty much wherever I've found them, there's a large element of
> > sociability. =EF=BF=BDIn general, that is going to make life very tough=
for an
> > outsider. =EF=BF=BDTo get anywhere in the game, not only do you have to=
categorize
> > the playing styles of your opponents, you also have to figure out how t=
hey
> > respond to certain other players being in the pot with them. =EF=BF=BD =
This is
> > likely to happen in the lower-stakes games of any form of poker that is=
n't a
> > mainstay of the house. =EF=BF=BDYou have to go a couple limits up from =
the smallest
> > games to get out of the realm of years-old social networks.
>
> Thanks, I've wondered about stud, specifically whether the players who
> cross over into limit hold'em are just bad at hold'em or bad at poker
> altogether.
> At Foxwoods, the middle limit hold'em games have been breaking while
> the stud games are still going all night, I joked that the games won't
> die until the players physically do at the table.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 28 Jan 2009 03:51:14
From: RichD
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 22, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote:
> > > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > > > or high?
>
> > > > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > > > > levels of your opponents.
>
> > > > It's the same question, isn't it?
>
> > > No.
>
> > "which game is the best" is a different question
> > than "at which game will you find the weakest opponents" ?
>
> Yes.
> And they also have different answers.

I found a book on Hold em...

"The most important decision you make is your choice of table.
Your profits depend on mistakes made by the other players."

"... most of your income will come from a few bad players."


Ergo, best game = most mistakes == > weakest opponents
QED



  
Date: 28 Jan 2009 12:33:19
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 28 2009 6:51 AM, RichD wrote:

> On Jan 22, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which
game
> > > > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud:
split
> > > > > > > or high?
> >
> > > > > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the
skill
> > > > > > levels of your opponents.
> >
> > > > > It's the same question, isn't it?
> >
> > > > No.
> >
> > > "which game is the best" is a different question
> > > than "at which game will you find the weakest opponents" ?
> >
> > Yes.
> > And they also have different answers.
>
> I found a book on Hold em...
>
> "The most important decision you make is your choice of table.
> Your profits depend on mistakes made by the other players."
>
> "... most of your income will come from a few bad players."
>
>
> Ergo, best game = most mistakes ==> weakest opponents
> QED

well, no, not ergo at all.

all profit comes from opponent mistakes does not mean a lot of mistakes
creates more profit than 1 mistake.

Which is more profitable? A table of bad players or a table of pretty
good players with one player who will always play until he's busted?

Most of the time it's that table with one bad player simply because those
kinds of tables are most often found at high stakes. But sometimes the
best choice is the table full of bad players.

The table with the most bad players is not the same as the table where
more mistakes are being made and neither is the same as the table with the
worst player(s). There is no simple rule which will tell you which of
those is the best choice.

Sorry you misunderstood my book. I thought I made it clear in that book
that simple minded approaches sometimes work but are never the best
approach.

________________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com



   
Date: 28 Jan 2009 15:34:20
From: Mark B [Diputsur]
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker

"garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote in message
news:f1s656xnpd.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Jan 28 2009 6:51 AM, RichD wrote:
>
>> On Jan 22, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
>> > > > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?),
>> > > > > > > which
> game
>> > > > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card
>> > > > > > > stud:
> split
>> > > > > > > or high?
>> >
>> > > > > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about
>> > > > > > the
> skill
>> > > > > > levels of your opponents.
>> >
>> > > > > It's the same question, isn't it?
>> >
>> > > > No.
>> >
>> > > "which game is the best" is a different question
>> > > than "at which game will you find the weakest opponents" ?
>> >
>> > Yes.
>> > And they also have different answers.
>>
>> I found a book on Hold em...
>>
>> "The most important decision you make is your choice of table.
>> Your profits depend on mistakes made by the other players."
>>
>> "... most of your income will come from a few bad players."
>>
>>
>> Ergo, best game = most mistakes ==> weakest opponents
>> QED
>
> well, no, not ergo at all.
>
> all profit comes from opponent mistakes does not mean a lot of mistakes
> creates more profit than 1 mistake.
>
> Which is more profitable? A table of bad players or a table of pretty
> good players with one player who will always play until he's busted?
>
> Most of the time it's that table with one bad player simply because those
> kinds of tables are most often found at high stakes. But sometimes the
> best choice is the table full of bad players.
>
> The table with the most bad players is not the same as the table where
> more mistakes are being made and neither is the same as the table with the
> worst player(s). There is no simple rule which will tell you which of
> those is the best choice.
>
> Sorry you misunderstood my book. I thought I made it clear in that book
> that simple minded approaches sometimes work but are never the best
> approach.

Speaking of books by Carson...
what's the status of the NL book?




 
Date: 21 Jan 2009 09:39:37
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
Limit stud 8 is far more diificult to play than Limit Omaha 8. It's
also a much more skillful game. Though seldom played, PLS8 is also
very skillful, but you must try and get most money in on 6th in many
situations. In PLO8, it's best to get the money in on the river. The
reason for both games is the following, you always know the nuts on
6th in PLS8 and the river in PLO8.

As far as there being bad players in Stud 8, the ante and bring in
makes the game. Even those that think they have knowledge of the game,
will find they're helpless against a real professional in Stud 8 with
a porper structure.







On Jan 20, 5:54=EF=BF=BDpm, Will in New Haven
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 8:41=EF=BF=BDpm, "RussGeorg...@aol.com" <RussGeorg...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Will, look at things in this manner. Golf has is full of WCPlayers,
> > yet Tiger would destroy them all. It's the same in Sud 8. Both players
> > play the starting hands, but the best bettor wins the money. There is
> > not a doubt in my mind or most pro players (of course they'll deny
> > it), but none of them would have a chance playing me split games. No
> > point challenging, as no one is going to play.
>
> OK, but Stud8 would give you a much bigger edge than O8, am I
> corrrect? There's much less to the play than in Stud8. Also, at a
> really juicy table full of idiots, are you going to make _much_ more
> money at O8 when compared to a merely good player or a lesser expert.
> Again, I think the expert's edge would be greater at Stud8. Of course,
> it is harder to find idiots who will play Stud8, so I have to play
> mixed games to play it against idiots. Some of them are only idiots at
> Stud8. How can someone who has learned to be a decent poker player in
> general not _notice_ that he sucks at one game. Back when I sucked at
> Stud8, I noticed it and did something about it.
>
> --
> Will in New Haven



 
Date: 20 Jan 2009 17:54:42
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 20, 8:41=A0pm, "RussGeorg...@aol.com" <RussGeorg...@aol.com >
wrote:
> Will, look at things in this manner. Golf has is full of WCPlayers,
> yet Tiger would destroy them all. It's the same in Sud 8. Both players
> play the starting hands, but the best bettor wins the money. There is
> not a doubt in my mind or most pro players (of course they'll deny
> it), but none of them would have a chance playing me split games. No
> point challenging, as no one is going to play.

OK, but Stud8 would give you a much bigger edge than O8, am I
corrrect? There's much less to the play than in Stud8. Also, at a
really juicy table full of idiots, are you going to make _much_ more
money at O8 when compared to a merely good player or a lesser expert.
Again, I think the expert's edge would be greater at Stud8. Of course,
it is harder to find idiots who will play Stud8, so I have to play
mixed games to play it against idiots. Some of them are only idiots at
Stud8. How can someone who has learned to be a decent poker player in
general not _notice_ that he sucks at one game. Back when I sucked at
Stud8, I noticed it and did something about it.

--
Will in New Haven




 
Date: 20 Jan 2009 17:41:42
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
Will, look at things in this manner. Golf has is full of WCPlayers,
yet Tiger would destroy them all. It's the same in Sud 8. Both players
play the starting hands, but the best bettor wins the money. There is
not a doubt in my mind or most pro players (of course they'll deny
it), but none of them would have a chance playing me split games. No
point challenging, as no one is going to play.








On Jan 20, 11:50=EF=BF=BDam, Will in New Haven
<bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com > wrote:
> On Jan 19, 8:25=EF=BF=BDpm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 16, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: spl=
it
> > > > or high?
>
> > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skil=
l
> > > levels of your opponents.
>
> > It's the same question, isn't it?
>
> Gary already said "no" but I will, as is my long-winded nature,
> elaborate.
>
> There are games where your skill level doesn't matter if your
> opponents are above a certain level. I'll get back to O8 later because
> I want to give the most extreme example:
>
> In tic-tac-toe, once your opponent can play to get the tie that the
> rules of the game guarantee to him, there is no more game. You can't
> win and he can't win and there's no profit to be made. Back to O8:
>
> As Russ said before, this is basically a starting-hands game. If the
> players at your table are not playing too many starting hands, it is
> not worth your while to play. If you are a merely good player, there
> will be no money in it. If you a world-class player, there won't be
> enough to justify playing there, unless the stakes are very high. If
> they ARE playing too many hands, a merely good player will make money
> and a world-class player will make somewhat more. But not much more
> because the game really isn't that tough against players like that.
>
> --
> Will in New Haven
>
>
>
>
>
> > Which offers the best game, typically:
> > high 7 card stud, or split 7 card stud?
> > High pot limit Omaha, of split pot limit Omaha?
>
> > > Be Loud. =EF=BF=BDBe Proud. =EF=BF=BDBe Considerate!
>
> > I visualize whirled peas.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 20 Jan 2009 16:05:28
From: RichD
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 20, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote:
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > or high?
>
> > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > > levels of your opponents.
>
> > It's the same question, isn't it?
>
> No.


"which game is the best" is a different question
than "at which game will you find the weakest opponents" ?


  
Date: 22 Jan 2009 13:22:17
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 20 2009 7:05 PM, RichD wrote:

> On Jan 20, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote:
> > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > > or high?
> >
> > > > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > > > levels of your opponents.
> >
> > > It's the same question, isn't it?
> >
> > No.
>
>
> "which game is the best" is a different question
> than "at which game will you find the weakest opponents" ?

Yes.

And they also have different answers.

----
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




 
Date: 20 Jan 2009 14:32:59
From: YYZ
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16, 10:54=A0am, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 15 2009 9:02 PM, YYZ wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15, 4:55=A0pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
>
> > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> > player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> > Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> > Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> > gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
> > Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.
>
> You have no idea of what you speak.
> Your whole post is 100% bullshit
>
> ------=A0
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com

Another brilliant analysis brought to you by one of the scholars on
rgp.


 
Date: 20 Jan 2009 11:50:36
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 19, 8:25=A0pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jan 16, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
>
> > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > levels of your opponents.
>
> It's the same question, isn't it?

Gary already said "no" but I will, as is my long-winded nature,
elaborate.

There are games where your skill level doesn't matter if your
opponents are above a certain level. I'll get back to O8 later because
I want to give the most extreme example:

In tic-tac-toe, once your opponent can play to get the tie that the
rules of the game guarantee to him, there is no more game. You can't
win and he can't win and there's no profit to be made. Back to O8:

As Russ said before, this is basically a starting-hands game. If the
players at your table are not playing too many starting hands, it is
not worth your while to play. If you are a merely good player, there
will be no money in it. If you a world-class player, there won't be
enough to justify playing there, unless the stakes are very high. If
they ARE playing too many hands, a merely good player will make money
and a world-class player will make somewhat more. But not much more
because the game really isn't that tough against players like that.

--
Will in New Haven


>
> Which offers the best game, typically:
> high 7 card stud, or split 7 card stud?
> High pot limit Omaha, of split pot limit Omaha?
>
> > Be Loud. =A0Be Proud. =A0Be Considerate!
>
> I visualize whirled peas.



 
Date: 19 Jan 2009 17:25:45
From: RichD
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
>
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> levels of your opponents.

It's the same question, isn't it?

Which offers the best game, typically:
high 7 card stud, or split 7 card stud?
High pot limit Omaha, of split pot limit Omaha?

> Be Loud. =A0Be Proud. =A0Be Considerate!

I visualize whirled peas.



  
Date: 20 Jan 2009 10:57:36
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 19 2009 8:25 PM, RichD wrote:

> On Jan 16, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
> >
> > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > levels of your opponents.
>
> It's the same question, isn't it?
>


No.

-------
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 17 Jan 2009 16:33:44
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 17, 3:42=A0am, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net > wrote:
> "Deadmoney Walking" <tbones...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6de31b84-0885-47c0-98f4-df32d1ac975a@r40g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 16, 12:56 pm, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The big problem with low-stakes stud is a high level of coordinated pla=
y
> > among regulars (even in the absence of actual team play, by the time yo=
u
> > figure out who plays soft against whom and who is permanently at war wi=
th
> > whom, it's time for a break). That gets less serious in the middle limi=
ts,
> > so I'd send an expert player to a $40/80 stud game.
>
> I so didn't follow the last part. =A0So should I learn to play 7 card
> stud?
>
> yeah, learn to play 7-card stud. =A0It won't completely go away any time =
soon.
> Play smaller games to build your hand-reading skills as much as for any
> other reason. =A0Read Roy West's "42 Lessons" book (everyone who plays po=
ker
> ought to read it sooner or later). =A0The Sklansky/Malmuth/Zee book is a =
nice
> follow-on for people who are mostly hold'em players. =A0There's no hurry =
to
> read Chip Reese's chapter in S/S (it's great, but you need lots of
> specifically stud experience to get the benefit of it). =A0Once you're
> comfortable with stud, keep track of how the mid-limit stud games are goi=
ng
> in a house you're playing in. There'll come a day when some game in the
> $15/30 to $40/80 range will have a fair number of unfamiliar faces in it,
> and a lot of (say, a third of contested pots) pots 3-or-more handed on 6t=
h
> street. That is a good time to take a shot at playing with seriously
> mercenary intent.
>
> What I heavy-handedly suggested is that in $5/10 and $10/20 stud games
> pretty much wherever I've found them, there's a large element of
> sociability. =A0In general, that is going to make life very tough for an
> outsider. =A0To get anywhere in the game, not only do you have to categor=
ize
> the playing styles of your opponents, you also have to figure out how the=
y
> respond to certain other players being in the pot with them. =A0 This is
> likely to happen in the lower-stakes games of any form of poker that isn'=
t a
> mainstay of the house. =A0You have to go a couple limits up from the smal=
lest
> games to get out of the realm of years-old social networks.

Thanks, I've wondered about stud, specifically whether the players who
cross over into limit hold'em are just bad at hold'em or bad at poker
altogether.
At Foxwoods, the middle limit hold'em games have been breaking while
the stud games are still going all night, I joked that the games won't
die until the players physically do at the table.


  
Date: 17 Jan 2009 22:50:44
From: Stephen Jacobs
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker

"Deadmoney Walking" <tbonesays@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:f915a709-e067-4c92-95d7-24e9a03cc538@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
...............
Thanks, I've wondered about stud, specifically whether the players who
cross over into limit hold'em are just bad at hold'em or bad at poker
altogether.
At Foxwoods, the middle limit hold'em games have been breaking while
the stud games are still going all night, I joked that the games won't
die until the players physically do at the table.


The people I know who willingly play both stud and hold'em aren't bad at
either one.

One of my favorite poker aphorisms may encapsulate the weakness that you're
seeing. It comes from the unlikely source "Fundamentals of Poker," by Mason
Malmuth and Lynne Loomis. "In stud, it is sometimes correct to chase." The
post-flop betting round feels a lot like 4th Street to a stud player.
Seat-of-the-pants players are going to chase a lot of draws that would have
been marginal with 3 cards to come, knowing but not feeling that there are
only 2 cards to come.

There's a painful lesson that stud players eventually learn: if a guy has
been calling quietly all hand and he raises on the end with a garbage board,
he has a full house. This may perhaps make mediocre stud players more
bluffable. Maybe.

On the topic of bluffs--betting fifth, sixth and river with what looks like
(and is) a busted flush is routine, and often successful (the face-down
river card is one of the keys to this). There really isn't an equivalent in
hold'em.




 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 18:00:03
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15, 7:55=A0pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> or high?

Stud8 gives the expert a bigger edge but I think it might be hard,
especially these days, to find that "average table" as most people
don't play Stud8 and those who do probably aren't as bad as the
average table of 7CS players. If you couild find that average table of
Stud8, it would be great. Stud8 went from being the game I hated to
see come up in mixed games to my second-best game, due to reading
Russ.

I think Stud Hi-Lo with no qualifier and a simultaneous declaration
will probably give the skilled player even MORE of an edge than Stud8
but the game is rarely played because it is believed, perhaps
correctly, that collusion and other cheating would be uncontrollable,
too big a problem. When we used to play it, I know I wasn't cheating
or colluding but I won. If people in the game were colluding they
sucked at it.

>
> And how about Omaha?

O8 with fixed-lmit betting will be profitable for any good player at a
typical table of bad players. The expert will make more than the
merely good player but not a ton more as the game is pretty easy. PLO8
is a very profitable game for the expert but games are hard to find.
Limit Omaha High is does not give the skilled player as much of an
edge as any O8 game. PLO gives the expert more of an edge than fixed-
limit O8 but not as much as PLO8.

We used to play hi-low draw with no qualifier and a simultaneous
declare, back when we were young and naive. It has the same problem as
Stud with a declaration but it was a wonderful game.

The skill-sets to play different games are somewhat different. Picking
up pots no one else wants is a big part of winning at Holdem but it
such opportunities come up less often at the other games.

--
Will in New Haven


 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 15:02:32
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
As I've stated, any MORON can win a tourney, which a sit & go is. So,
you Fell, as a moron won a tourney from me. But, you don't want to
continue to play. How about we play a speciefied amount of hours at
stud 8 or better in cash games and see how you do? We can play $8-$16
or higher, up to $20-$40. Obviously I know it may not be you on the
other end, but I'll take my chances against anyone who you can get to
play me. How about a 4 or 6 hour play?




On Jan 16, 1:27=EF=BF=BDpm, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com > wrot=
e:
> On Jan 16 2009 1:30 PM, RussGeorg...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > We all don't get to play against Fells all the time. Comes a day when
> > you move up in class. The what do you do?
>
> So you are admitting that you got your ass handed to you HU by a fish?
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. =EF=BF=BDBe Proud. =EF=BF=BDBe Considerate!
>
> ____________________________________________________________________=EF=
=BF=BD
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more..www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 14:10:25
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16, 12:56=A0pm, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net > wrote:
> "RichD" <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:994e7d38-182a-4ee3-a860-44f75a2d5ae9@b1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
>
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> Allow me to be the Ashmolean (something like that): "It depends."
>
> In Atlantic City as it is today, the high-low games are pretty passive un=
til
> all the cards are out. =A0It's like playing wrapped in a wet blanket. =A0=
The
> games are heavy on regulars, so it's very hard to liven things up. =A0I t=
hink
> that an expert probably has the biggest edge in a swingin' stud8 game, bu=
t I
> don't know where to find that for cash. =A0O8 is a bit less affected by t=
he
> dull play (less need to be able to count on rational play by others).
>
> The big problem with low-stakes stud is a high level of coordinated play
> among regulars (even in the absence of actual team play, by the time you
> figure out who plays soft against whom and who is permanently at war with
> whom, it's time for a break). =A0That gets less serious in the middle lim=
its,
> so I'd send an expert player to a $40/80 stud game.

I so didn't follow the last part. So should I learn to play 7 card
stud?


  
Date: 17 Jan 2009 03:42:26
From: Stephen Jacobs
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker

"Deadmoney Walking" <tbonesays@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:6de31b84-0885-47c0-98f4-df32d1ac975a@r40g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 12:56 pm, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net > wrote:

>
> The big problem with low-stakes stud is a high level of coordinated play
> among regulars (even in the absence of actual team play, by the time you
> figure out who plays soft against whom and who is permanently at war with
> whom, it's time for a break). That gets less serious in the middle limits,
> so I'd send an expert player to a $40/80 stud game.

I so didn't follow the last part. So should I learn to play 7 card
stud?


yeah, learn to play 7-card stud. It won't completely go away any time soon.
Play smaller games to build your hand-reading skills as much as for any
other reason. Read Roy West's "42 Lessons" book (everyone who plays poker
ought to read it sooner or later). The Sklansky/Malmuth/Zee book is a nice
follow-on for people who are mostly hold'em players. There's no hurry to
read Chip Reese's chapter in S/S (it's great, but you need lots of
specifically stud experience to get the benefit of it). Once you're
comfortable with stud, keep track of how the mid-limit stud games are going
in a house you're playing in. There'll come a day when some game in the
$15/30 to $40/80 range will have a fair number of unfamiliar faces in it,
and a lot of (say, a third of contested pots) pots 3-or-more handed on 6th
street. That is a good time to take a shot at playing with seriously
mercenary intent.

What I heavy-handedly suggested is that in $5/10 and $10/20 stud games
pretty much wherever I've found them, there's a large element of
sociability. In general, that is going to make life very tough for an
outsider. To get anywhere in the game, not only do you have to categorize
the playing styles of your opponents, you also have to figure out how they
respond to certain other players being in the pot with them. This is
likely to happen in the lower-stakes games of any form of poker that isn't a
mainstay of the house. You have to go a couple limits up from the smallest
games to get out of the realm of years-old social networks.




 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 14:05:23
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16, 9:04=A0am, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Jan 16 2009 9:02 AM, FangBanger wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which ga=
me
> > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: s=
plit
> > > > > or high?
>
> > > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
>
> > > I have to disagree. =A0The average player at Stud/8 has no chance aga=
inst
> > > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. =A00/8 is mo=
re
> > > forgiving, imo.
>
> > And that is spread where now ?
>
> > Actually 5 card stud would prolly hold the greatest edge , but like stu=
d8,
> > a game is almost impossible to find
>
> Perhaps you have never visited the East coast, but Stud and Stud8 games
> are still spread there regularly.
>
> Also, from what I understand, Stud games are quite popular in Europe.
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. =A0Be Proud. =A0Be Considerate!
>
> -------=A0
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders :http://www.recgroups.com- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

They almost never get 08 or E going at Foxwoods but higher stakes
games are spread as HOE.


 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:40:27
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
I have written about this and the main reason is the ante ratio and
bring in structure.





On Jan 16, 9:56=EF=BF=BDam, "Stephen Jacobs" <jac...@comcast.net > wrote:
> "RichD" <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:994e7d38-182a-4ee3-a860-44f75a2d5ae9@b1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
>
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> Allow me to be the Ashmolean (something like that): "It depends."
>
> In Atlantic City as it is today, the high-low games are pretty passive un=
til
> all the cards are out. =EF=BF=BDIt's like playing wrapped in a wet blanke=
t. =EF=BF=BDThe
> games are heavy on regulars, so it's very hard to liven things up. =EF=BF=
=BDI think
> that an expert probably has the biggest edge in a swingin' stud8 game, bu=
t I
> don't know where to find that for cash. =EF=BF=BDO8 is a bit less affecte=
d by the
> dull play (less need to be able to count on rational play by others).
>
> The big problem with low-stakes stud is a high level of coordinated play
> among regulars (even in the absence of actual team play, by the time you
> figure out who plays soft against whom and who is permanently at war with
> whom, it's time for a break). =EF=BF=BDThat gets less serious in the midd=
le limits,
> so I'd send an expert player to a $40/80 stud game.



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:39:01
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
There used to be about 5-1 ratio on stud 8 to regular stud games in LA
casino's.






On Jan 16, 10:03=EF=BF=BDam, "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Jan 16 2009 7:05 AM, FangBanger wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which ga=
me
> > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: s=
plit
> > > > > or high?
>
> > > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
>
> > > I have to disagree. =EF=BF=BDThe average player at Stud/8 has no chan=
ce against
> > > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. =EF=BF=BD0/8=
is more
> > > forgiving, imo.
>
> > > Howard Beale
>
> > Reconsidered .. actually "any any" 7 stud is by far the best for a bett=
er
> > player
>
> 'No Qualifier' is usually only spread at the higher limits and if you can
> find a game where there are idiots playing for the high I imagine it's
> great. =EF=BF=BDFYI, there are ~4-5 Stud/8 games spread in SoCal.
>
> HB
>
> ____________________________________________________________________=EF=
=BF=BD
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com- Hide qu=
oted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:37:17
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
Perhaps for the same reason I know the European players and the
eastern players? I've been there. How could can a $4-$8 player be? Can
he make a living off playing $4-$8?



On Jan 16, 8:23=EF=BF=BDam, YYZ <istp...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jan 15, 10:33=EF=BF=BDpm, "RussGeorg...@aol.com" <RussGeorg...@aol.com=
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Another IDIOT opens his mouth spouting out ridiculous advice. Mike
> > Cappeletti? WTF does he know? I never even saw him play in decades of
> > playing. Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based
> > primarily on starting hands and very little play. PL08 is a very
> > skillful game, where the best players always get the money, at least
> > in B&Ms. For the record, the game was introduced by a partners of
> > mine's wife, Gwen Pham (married to Russ Clapp). She introduced in at
> > the Golden Nugget in 1982 if I remember correctly. However, when the
> > game was introduced, it was PLO8 and Limit Omaha Hi. The problem was
> > the casino's didn't want the best players winning all the time, so
> > they changed polarity.
>
> > As for Stud 8 or better, this game is so much more complicated than
> > most can even imagine. You people spit out pot odds and that BS, but
> > most poker is cash game poker. The aim of the game is to start out
> > ahead and not to chase. The name of the game is knowing when you're
> > ahead in the proposition. The name of the game is betting. Something
> > most players online or in B&Ms have no clue about. This is a game of
> > high stud played with low cards when played properly. This is a game
> > where position playing is key. Yes, there is position in stud poker if
> > you know how to play.
>
> > Russ Georgiev
>
> >www.pokermafia.comwww.pokerunchecked.comwww.russgeorgiev.com
>
> > On Jan 15, 8:02 pm, YYZ <istp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 15, 4:55 pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: spl=
it
> > > > or high?
>
> > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> > > player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> > > Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> > > Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> > > gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Po=
t
> > > Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> =EF=BF=BDSince Mike Cappalletti plays low stakes Omaha8, typically $4/8 t=
ype
> of games, and lives somewhere back east why would you have seen him
> play? The book in question is specificly written for low stakes games,
> particularly ones where 4 or more player see each flop. Btw, your
> quote: "Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based primarily
> on starting hands and very little play" is pretty much exactly what
> the book in question states. For a low-stakes type of game Omaha is a
> better gamble than fixed limit hold'em, since you can mostly stick to
> hands that make the nuts, and the more players that enter the pot the
> better, since you're only playing for the nuts. For higher stakes and
> versus better player, as the book notes, Hold'em is a better game.
> (Not to mention Stud, Stud8, ect)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:34:47
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
This is why you're a moron. Perhaps at penny poker with the 7 old
ladies and you in the pot, splits are rare. But, playing for larger
stakes makes a whole lot of difference.



On Jan 16, 7:37=EF=BF=BDam, "CincinnatiKid" <a1...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Jan 16 2009 9:12 AM, FangBanger wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 16 2009 5:46 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 15 2009 7:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: spl=
it
> > > > or high?
>
> > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skil=
l
> > > levels of your opponents.
>
> > > Fell
> > > --
> > > Be Loud. =EF=BF=BDBe Proud. =EF=BF=BDBe Considerate!
>
> > That would be true .. assuming you have no skills !!
>
> > Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrociti=
es.
> > Voltaire
>
> I disagree with everyone. I think the biggest edge lies in plain 'ol
> 7-card stud. Split games have split pots (hence the name). Scoops are
> rare. Quarters, suckouts, etc are not.
>
> --------=EF=BF=BD
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com- Hide qu=
oted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:32:42
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
I know Robert Turner very well. Told me the whole story in his words.
Like's to take part of the credit, which he deserves. He was part of
getting it going at the GN, but not introducing the game.





On Jan 16, 6:10=EF=BF=BDam, "FangBanger" <a29b...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Jan 16 2009 12:33 AM, RussGeorg...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Another IDIOT opens his mouth spouting out ridiculous advice. Mike
> > Cappeletti? WTF does he know? I never even saw him play in decades of
> > playing. Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based
> > primarily on starting hands and very little play. PL08 is a very
> > skillful game, where the best players always get the money, at least
> > in B&Ms. For the record, the game was introduced by a partners of
> > mine's wife, Gwen Pham (married to Russ Clapp). She introduced in at
> > the Golden Nugget in 1982 if I remember correctly. However, when the
> > game was introduced, it was PLO8 and Limit Omaha Hi. The problem was
> > the casino's didn't want the best players winning all the time, so
> > they changed polarity.
>
> I agree with you about Gwen , but Robert Turner keeps trying to take
> credit for it . It was in one of your posts .. wasnt it ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > As for Stud 8 or better, this game is so much more complicated than
> > most can even imagine. You people spit out pot odds and that BS, but
> > most poker is cash game poker. The aim of the game is to start out
> > ahead and not to chase. The name of the game is knowing when you're
> > ahead in the proposition. The name of the game is betting. Something
> > most players online or in B&Ms have no clue about. This is a game of
> > high stud played with low cards when played properly. This is a game
> > where position playing is key. Yes, there is position in stud poker if
> > you know how to play.
>
> > Russ Georgiev
>
> >www.pokermafia.com
> >www.pokerunchecked.com
> >www.russgeorgiev.com
>
> > On Jan 15, 8:02=EF=BF=BDpm, YYZ <istp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Jan 15, 4:55=EF=BF=BDpm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: spl=
it
> > > > or high?
>
> > > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > > Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> > > player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> > > Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> > > Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> > > gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Po=
t
> > > Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.
>
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities=
.
> Voltaire
>
> ---=EF=BF=BD
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders :http://www.recgroups.com- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:30:40
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
We all don't get to play against Fells all the time. Comes a day when
you move up in class. The what do you do?




On Jan 16, 3:46=EF=BF=BDam, "FellKnight" <jordandevenp...@hotmail.com > wrot=
e:
> On Jan 15 2009 7:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
>
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> levels of your opponents.
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. =EF=BF=BDBe Proud. =EF=BF=BDBe Considerate!
>
> ______________________________________________________________________=EF=
=BF=BD
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com



  
Date: 16 Jan 2009 13:27:57
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 1:30 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> We all don't get to play against Fells all the time. Comes a day when
> you move up in class. The what do you do?

So you are admitting that you got your ass handed to you HU by a fish?

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

____________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com



   
Date: 16 Jan 2009 16:35:03
From: Mark B [Diputsur]
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker

"FellKnight" <jordandevenport@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:tna746x5mk.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Jan 16 2009 1:30 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
>
>> We all don't get to play against Fells all the time. Comes a day when
>> you move up in class. The what do you do?
>
> So you are admitting that you got your ass handed to you HU by a fish?

You've never had your ass handed to you HU by a fish?
They get lucky sometimes, no? =)




  
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:51:02
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 12:30 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> We all don't get to play against Fells all the time. Comes a day when
> you move up in class. The what do you do?

Beg RGPers to play on their accounts and get owned in various headsup SNGs?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"You...are just as funny...as Popinjay is" --Will in New Haven

-------
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 12:56:53
From: Stephen Jacobs
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker

"RichD" <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:994e7d38-182a-4ee3-a860-44f75a2d5ae9@b1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> or high?
>
> And how about Omaha?
>

Allow me to be the Ashmolean (something like that): "It depends."

In Atlantic City as it is today, the high-low games are pretty passive until
all the cards are out. It's like playing wrapped in a wet blanket. The
games are heavy on regulars, so it's very hard to liven things up. I think
that an expert probably has the biggest edge in a swingin' stud8 game, but I
don't know where to find that for cash. O8 is a bit less affected by the
dull play (less need to be able to count on rational play by others).

The big problem with low-stakes stud is a high level of coordinated play
among regulars (even in the absence of actual team play, by the time you
figure out who plays soft against whom and who is permanently at war with
whom, it's time for a break). That gets less serious in the middle limits,
so I'd send an expert player to a $40/80 stud game.




 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 08:23:49
From: YYZ
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15, 10:33=A0pm, "RussGeorg...@aol.com" <RussGeorg...@aol.com >
wrote:
> Another IDIOT opens his mouth spouting out ridiculous advice. Mike
> Cappeletti? WTF does he know? I never even saw him play in decades of
> playing. Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based
> primarily on starting hands and very little play. PL08 is a very
> skillful game, where the best players always get the money, at least
> in B&Ms. For the record, the game was introduced by a partners of
> mine's wife, Gwen Pham (married to Russ Clapp). She introduced in at
> the Golden Nugget in 1982 if I remember correctly. However, when the
> game was introduced, it was PLO8 and Limit Omaha Hi. The problem was
> the casino's didn't want the best players winning all the time, so
> they changed polarity.
>
> As for Stud 8 or better, this game is so much more complicated than
> most can even imagine. You people spit out pot odds and that BS, but
> most poker is cash game poker. The aim of the game is to start out
> ahead and not to chase. The name of the game is knowing when you're
> ahead in the proposition. The name of the game is betting. Something
> most players online or in B&Ms have no clue about. This is a game of
> high stud played with low cards when played properly. This is a game
> where position playing is key. Yes, there is position in stud poker if
> you know how to play.
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.comwww.pokerunchecked.comwww.russgeorgiev.com
>
> On Jan 15, 8:02 pm, YYZ <istp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 15, 4:55 pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
>
> > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> > player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> > Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> > Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> > gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
> > Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Since Mike Cappalletti plays low stakes Omaha8, typically $4/8 type
of games, and lives somewhere back east why would you have seen him
play? The book in question is specificly written for low stakes games,
particularly ones where 4 or more player see each flop. Btw, your
quote: "Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based primarily
on starting hands and very little play" is pretty much exactly what
the book in question states. For a low-stakes type of game Omaha is a
better gamble than fixed limit hold'em, since you can mostly stick to
hands that make the nuts, and the more players that enter the pot the
better, since you're only playing for the nuts. For higher stakes and
versus better player, as the book notes, Hold'em is a better game.
(Not to mention Stud, Stud8, ect)


 
Date: 16 Jan 2009 03:46:32
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 7:55 PM, RichD wrote:

> Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> or high?
>
> And how about Omaha?

It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
levels of your opponents.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




  
Date: 16 Jan 2009 06:12:25
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 5:46 AM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 7:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
> >
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> levels of your opponents.
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

That would be true .. assuming you have no skills !!


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

______________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



   
Date: 16 Jan 2009 07:37:53
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 9:12 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Jan 16 2009 5:46 AM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 7:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> >
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
> > >
> > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > levels of your opponents.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!
>
> That would be true .. assuming you have no skills !!
>
>
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
> Voltaire

I disagree with everyone. I think the biggest edge lies in plain 'ol
7-card stud. Split games have split pots (hence the name). Scoops are
rare. Quarters, suckouts, etc are not.

--------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




    
Date: 16 Jan 2009 19:53:29
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 9:37 AM, CincinnatiKid wrote:

> On Jan 16 2009 9:12 AM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Jan 16 2009 5:46 AM, FellKnight wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 15 2009 7:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> > >
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > or high?
> > > >
> > > > And how about Omaha?
> > >
> > > It does not matter so much about your skill level, but about the skill
> > > levels of your opponents.
> > >
> > > Fell
> > > --
> > > Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!
> >
> > That would be true .. assuming you have no skills !!
> >
> >
> > Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
> > Voltaire
>
> I disagree with everyone. I think the biggest edge lies in plain 'ol
> 7-card stud. Split games have split pots (hence the name). Scoops are
> rare. Quarters, suckouts, etc are not.

Thats is because you are a fucking idiot !! There is absolutely no
question that "split" game have more traps for suckers like you !!

Now go get some Skyline Chili and shut up !! Go to the original on
Montgomery


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 15 Jan 2009 22:33:50
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
You are correct sir.





On Jan 15, 8:24=EF=BF=BDpm, "Howard Beale" <a1...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
>
> > > And how about Omaha?
>
> > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
>
> I have to disagree. =EF=BF=BDThe average player at Stud/8 has no chance a=
gainst
> the expert player in anything approaching the long term. =EF=BF=BD0/8 is =
more
> forgiving, imo.
>
> Howard Beale
>
> _____________________________________________________________________=EF=
=BF=BD
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more..www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 15 Jan 2009 22:33:11
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
Another IDIOT opens his mouth spouting out ridiculous advice. Mike
Cappeletti? WTF does he know? I never even saw him play in decades of
playing. Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based
primarily on starting hands and very little play. PL08 is a very
skillful game, where the best players always get the money, at least
in B&Ms. For the record, the game was introduced by a partners of
mine's wife, Gwen Pham (married to Russ Clapp). She introduced in at
the Golden Nugget in 1982 if I remember correctly. However, when the
game was introduced, it was PLO8 and Limit Omaha Hi. The problem was
the casino's didn't want the best players winning all the time, so
they changed polarity.

As for Stud 8 or better, this game is so much more complicated than
most can even imagine. You people spit out pot odds and that BS, but
most poker is cash game poker. The aim of the game is to start out
ahead and not to chase. The name of the game is knowing when you're
ahead in the proposition. The name of the game is betting. Something
most players online or in B&Ms have no clue about. This is a game of
high stud played with low cards when played properly. This is a game
where position playing is key. Yes, there is position in stud poker if
you know how to play.

Russ Georgiev

www.pokermafia.com
www.pokerunchecked.com
www.russgeorgiev.com




On Jan 15, 8:02=EF=BF=BDpm, YYZ <istp...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jan 15, 4:55=EF=BF=BDpm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
>
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
> Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.



  
Date: 16 Jan 2009 06:10:39
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 12:33 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> Another IDIOT opens his mouth spouting out ridiculous advice. Mike
> Cappeletti? WTF does he know? I never even saw him play in decades of
> playing. Fixed limit Omaha 8 is a low skill level game, based
> primarily on starting hands and very little play. PL08 is a very
> skillful game, where the best players always get the money, at least
> in B&Ms. For the record, the game was introduced by a partners of
> mine's wife, Gwen Pham (married to Russ Clapp). She introduced in at
> the Golden Nugget in 1982 if I remember correctly. However, when the
> game was introduced, it was PLO8 and Limit Omaha Hi. The problem was
> the casino's didn't want the best players winning all the time, so
> they changed polarity.

I agree with you about Gwen , but Robert Turner keeps trying to take
credit for it . It was in one of your posts .. wasnt it ?
>
> As for Stud 8 or better, this game is so much more complicated than
> most can even imagine. You people spit out pot odds and that BS, but
> most poker is cash game poker. The aim of the game is to start out
> ahead and not to chase. The name of the game is knowing when you're
> ahead in the proposition. The name of the game is betting. Something
> most players online or in B&Ms have no clue about. This is a game of
> high stud played with low cards when played properly. This is a game
> where position playing is key. Yes, there is position in stud poker if
> you know how to play.
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.com
> www.pokerunchecked.com
> www.russgeorgiev.com
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 15, 8:02�pm, YYZ <istp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 15, 4:55�pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
> >
> > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> > player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> > Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> > Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> > gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
> > Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

---
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 15 Jan 2009 20:02:51
From: YYZ
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15, 4:55=A0pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> or high?
>
> And how about Omaha?


Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.


  
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:54:56
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 9:02 PM, YYZ wrote:

> On Jan 15, 4:55pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
> >
> > And how about Omaha?
>
>
> Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
> Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.

You have no idea of what you speak.
Your whole post is 100% bullshit

------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




  
Date: 16 Jan 2009 06:07:06
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 10:02 PM, YYZ wrote:

> On Jan 15, 4:55pm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
> >
> > And how about Omaha?
>
>
> Fixed limit O8 is a relativly low skill game as a reasonably skilled
> player stands to do about as well as a world class player. Mike
> Cappalletti explains this in his book "How to Win at Omaha Hi Lo
> Split" (recommended). Fortunately most live Omaha8 players are wild
> gamblers who give even a decent player a good edge over the table. Pot
> Limit O8 is a much more skilled game.

Cappelletti is a fucking moron . his books cant even be used for toilet
paper any more !!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

____________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 15 Jan 2009 19:02:05
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:

> Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> or high?
>
> And how about Omaha?

OmahaO8 by far ... not even close


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

----
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




  
Date: 15 Jan 2009 20:24:24
From: Howard Beale
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
>
> > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > or high?
> >
> > And how about Omaha?
>
> OmahaO8 by far ... not even close


I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
forgiving, imo.



Howard Beale

_____________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com



   
Date: 16 Jan 2009 06:05:09
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> >
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
> > >
> > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
>
>
> I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> forgiving, imo.
>
>
>
> Howard Beale

Reconsidered .. actually "any any" 7 stud is by far the best for a better
player


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

____________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



    
Date: 16 Jan 2009 10:03:03
From: Howard Beale
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 7:05 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> > >
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > or high?
> > > >
> > > > And how about Omaha?
> > >
> > > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
> >
> >
> > I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> > forgiving, imo.
> >
> >
> >
> > Howard Beale
>
> Reconsidered .. actually "any any" 7 stud is by far the best for a better
> player

'No Qualifier' is usually only spread at the higher limits and if you can
find a game where there are idiots playing for the high I imagine it's
great. FYI, there are ~4-5 Stud/8 games spread in SoCal.


HB

____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




     
Date: 16 Jan 2009 19:46:18
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 12:03 PM, Howard Beale wrote:

> On Jan 16 2009 7:05 AM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > > or high?
> > > > >
> > > > > And how about Omaha?
> > > >
> > > > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
> > >
> > >
> > > I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> > > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> > > forgiving, imo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Howard Beale
> >
> > Reconsidered .. actually "any any" 7 stud is by far the best for a better
> > player
>
> 'No Qualifier' is usually only spread at the higher limits and if you can
> find a game where there are idiots playing for the high I imagine it's
> great. FYI, there are ~4-5 Stud/8 games spread in SoCal.
>
>
> HB

And what about the game at Cas AZ ?


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




      
Date: 16 Jan 2009 23:13:57
From: Howard Beale
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 8:46 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Jan 16 2009 12:03 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > On Jan 16 2009 7:05 AM, FangBanger wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud:
split
> > > > > > or high?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And how about Omaha?
> > > > >
> > > > > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> > > > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> > > > forgiving, imo.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Howard Beale
> > >
> > > Reconsidered .. actually "any any" 7 stud is by far the best for a better
> > > player
> >
> > 'No Qualifier' is usually only spread at the higher limits and if you can
> > find a game where there are idiots playing for the high I imagine it's
> > great. FYI, there are ~4-5 Stud/8 games spread in SoCal.
> >
> >
> > HB
>
> And what about the game at Cas AZ ?


The new triple draw seems to have taken over the big limits and the larger
mix games are going less frequently.


HB

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Date: 16 Jan 2009 06:02:45
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> >
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
> > >
> > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
>
>
> I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> forgiving, imo.

And that is spread where now ?

Actually 5 card stud would prolly hold the greatest edge , but like stud8,
a game is almost impossible to find
>
>
>
> Howard Beale


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

----
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



    
Date: 16 Jan 2009 16:44:14
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 8:02 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> > I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> > forgiving, imo.
>
> And that is spread where now ?

Everywhere online. You know, where all the real poker is played these
days.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




    
Date: 16 Jan 2009 06:04:34
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 16 2009 9:02 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 10:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> > >
> > > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > > or high?
> > > >
> > > > And how about Omaha?
> > >
> > > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
> >
> >
> > I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> > the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> > forgiving, imo.
>
> And that is spread where now ?
>
> Actually 5 card stud would prolly hold the greatest edge , but like stud8,
> a game is almost impossible to find

Perhaps you have never visited the East coast, but Stud and Stud8 games
are still spread there regularly.

Also, from what I understand, Stud games are quite popular in Europe.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



   
Date: 16 Jan 2009 03:49:52
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Jan 15 2009 11:24 PM, Howard Beale wrote:

> On Jan 15 2009 8:02 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15 2009 6:55 PM, RichD wrote:
> >
> > > Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> > > offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> > > or high?
> > >
> > > And how about Omaha?
> >
> > OmahaO8 by far ... not even close
>
>
> I have to disagree. The average player at Stud/8 has no chance against
> the expert player in anything approaching the long term. 0/8 is more
> forgiving, imo.
>
>
>
> Howard Beale

Agree.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




 
Date: 15 Jan 2009 17:06:58
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
Split games have far more skill involved in their play that all but a
few games (like 5 card NL stud, full deck). More options, more
thinking involved, thus more play and deception. Stud hi-lo has more
skill than stud, though many may disagree. In flop games, much depends
on the way the game is played, such as limit, PL or NL. I've written
about this in numerous posts. Most players aren't capable of
determining whether they have an edge in hi-lo games, even if the
cards are face up. Then you add the betting and hi-lo games will empty
a sucker faster than just about any poker game will. Even in a basic
split game such as stud 8 or better, you can have a cinch for half the
pot for two small bets while drawing as a favorite for the whole pot,
while having a person going high calling three large bets just to get
his two small bets back.

Russ Georgiev

www.pokermafia.com
www.pokerunchecked.com
www.russgeorgiev.com




On Jan 15, 4:55=EF=BF=BDpm, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Let's say you are an expert player (and aren't we all?), which game
> offers the biggest edge over the average table, at 7 card stud: split
> or high?
>
> And how about Omaha?



 
Date: 15 Jan 2009 18:57:10
From: mccard
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker

"RichD" <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:994e7d38-182a-4ee3-a860-44f75a2d5ae9@b1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> And how about Omaha?
>
-15 this morning.



  
Date: 15 Jan 2009 19:35:26
From: FL Turbo
Subject: Re: high vs. split poker
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:57:10 -0600, "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none >
wrote:

>
>"RichD" <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:994e7d38-182a-4ee3-a860-44f75a2d5ae9@b1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> And how about Omaha?
>>
>-15 this morning.

-15 in Omaha?
That is Omaha, Nebraska, isn't it?

Yikes !!

This Global Warming is getting serious.