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Date: 01 Feb 2009 13:31:26
From: Dutch
Subject: What would you have done?
Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are 125/250
25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table with a
bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and one
player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows K3.
I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a dumb
call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that was the
better play.





 
Date: 02 Feb 2009 11:30:47
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are 125/250
> 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
> combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
> mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table with a
> bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and one
> player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows K3.
> I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a dumb
> call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that was the
> better play.

Pushing preflop is results orientated thinking. You still have over 20BB
to mess with, not great, but nowhere near 'I need to push preflop with AK
because I am short'

The shove on the flop is standard IMO. He got rewarded for a dumb play.
Shit happens.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
Boooooooong iiiiing!
John

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Date: 02 Feb 2009 15:04:44
From: Mike Franklin
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
On Feb 2, 2:09=A0pm, Senator Millionaire <moon...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I have no idea what your point is JBK. Playing online at Stars the
> correct move is to push AKo. AK is very strong on Stars and probably
> wins more than pocket pairs. AK is the UNDERDOG vs pocket pairs in the
> real world. Online at Stars AK is the favorite.

Sigh.


  
Date: 02 Feb 2009 14:09:04
From: Senator Millionaire
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
I have no idea what your point is JBK. Playing online at Stars the
correct move is to push AKo. AK is very strong on Stars and probably
wins more than pocket pairs. AK is the UNDERDOG vs pocket pairs in the
real world. Online at Stars AK is the favorite.


  
Date: 02 Feb 2009 13:23:53
From: Senator Millionaire
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
Dutch did not push with his AKo so he was called by a K-3 and got
knocked out. What a shame but it happens all the time. If he pushed
the K-3 would have folded and Dutch would have still been in the
tournament with a chance to win. The end result speaks for itself.
Tournament poker is all about staying alive.

Even though K-3 is a shitty hand, the odds of K-3 winning was still
22.1%. The AKo chance of winning was 76.6% preflop.


   
Date: 02 Feb 2009 15:11:19
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com > wrote
> Dutch did not push with his AKo so he was called by a K-3 and got
> knocked out. What a shame but it happens all the time. If he pushed
> the K-3 would have folded and Dutch would have still been in the
> tournament with a chance to win. The end result speaks for itself.
> Tournament poker is all about staying alive.

That pretty much sums it up. At that point I did not want a caller, so I
should have made the bet that had the best odds of getting no calls. I made
the mistake of thinking that my bet was large enough to dissuade any
rational person from calling, I failed to consider that not everyone makes
rational decisions. I see now that he probably took my raise to mean
something like AJ or worse, that I would have gone all-in with AK, so he
figured if he hits a K on the flop he can push me off. He also had twice as
many chips as I did, so the worse case for him was not as dire as for me.
Important factor. Still a terrible call though.. imo.

> Even though K-3 is a shitty hand, the odds of K-3 winning was still
> 22.1%. The AKo chance of winning was 76.6% preflop.

Except that PS is rigged.. right? What is your evidence for that?




   
Date: 02 Feb 2009 13:42:04
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> Even though K-3 is a shitty hand, the odds of K-3 winning was still
> 22.1%. The AKo chance of winning was 76.6% preflop.

That is assuming he knows the Op has K-3. The same logic can be applied
if he said the OP turned over AA or KK. The only hand that calls is a
hand that beats him preflop. That must make for a lot of stupid people
pushing preflop with AK since most of the time it is behind.

==========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
==============================
47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
JBK

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Date: 02 Feb 2009 11:52:23
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> The shove on the flop is standard IMO. He got rewarded for a dumb play.
> Shit happens.

The shove on the flop with someone betting into you was incorrect. The
correct play at that point is to either call or raise a bit, maybe gobble.
You may even be able to fold if you have a soul peering read (doubtful).
Shoving mostly only gets called by hands that beat you and you miss out on
extra chips from hands you are beating. The most likely hand that will
call you that you're beating is KQ. They may even put you on AA, KK or AK
and fold if you shove.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

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Date: 02 Feb 2009 11:57:42
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> The shove on the flop with someone betting into you was incorrect. The
> correct play at that point is to either call or raise a bit, maybe gobble.
> You may even be able to fold if you have a soul peering read (doubtful).
> Shoving mostly only gets called by hands that beat you and you miss out on
> extra chips from hands you are beating. The most likely hand that will
> call you that you're beating is KQ. They may even put you on AA, KK or AK
> and fold if you shove.

I disagree completely. Your comment about the only hand that calls you
has you beat is completely wrong IMO.

I see K-Q, K-J, K-10 shit just about any king calling the all in there.
Now I discount just about every K hand minus the ones listed because of
the previous action, but I see all of these hands calling and you are
ahead of all of those.

I also see a hand like QQ, JJ, 10-10 calling there. I would guess QQ
would repop preflop, but it is still a possibility.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
Boooooooong iiiiing!
John

-------- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



    
Date: 02 Feb 2009 18:22:45
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> > The shove on the flop with someone betting into you was incorrect. The
> > correct play at that point is to either call or raise a bit, maybe gobble.
> > You may even be able to fold if you have a soul peering read (doubtful).
> > Shoving mostly only gets called by hands that beat you and you miss out on
> > extra chips from hands you are beating. The most likely hand that will
> > call you that you're beating is KQ. They may even put you on AA, KK or AK
> > and fold if you shove.
>
> I disagree completely. Your comment about the only hand that calls you
> has you beat is completely wrong IMO.
>
> I see K-Q, K-J, K-10 shit just about any king calling the all in there.

Maybe, maybe not. However, lots of hands that you want to call here will
fold to the all-in. Those are the hands you want to keep around. While
it's good to keep those weaker Ks in the hand, you also want QQ, JJ, and A
that paired, etc. You know you are comfortable taking your hand to
showdown.

In this instance, you want ANY hand that is weaker than yours to call. You
don't want them to fold. You are close to short stacked. You NEED to get
maximum value, not just increase your stack by 25%. Shoving all-in mainly
gets called by hands that beat you with a few hands that you beat maybe
calling the shove. Pretend the cards were face up, what would the correct
play be?

I'm guessing you're not a winning tourney player if you don't understand
the concept here. You are trying to win the most number of chips so you
can win the tourney. When you are ahead here with AK you are WAY ahead and
you don't want anyone to fold. Since you aren't going to fold yourself
this dictates that you not push the other player out of the pot.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

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Date: 01 Feb 2009 22:29:57
From: MZB
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
I absolutely go all-in at that point. It's a great hand, but I would prefer
no callers.

Mel
"Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote in message
news:gm54bm$3r0$1@news.motzarella.org...
> Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are 125/250
> 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
> combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
> mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table with
> a bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and one
> player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows
> K3. I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a
> dumb call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that
> was the better play.




  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 12:54:01
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
On Feb 1 2009 10:29 PM, MZB wrote:

> I absolutely go all-in at that point. It's a great hand, but I would prefer
> no callers.

I'd probably still go busted here, but preflop I'm limping.




>
> Mel
> "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message
> news:gm54bm$3r0$1@news.motzarella.org...
> > Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are 125/250
> > 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
> > combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
> > mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table with
> > a bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and one
> > player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows
> > K3. I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a
> > dumb call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that
> > was the better play.

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Date: 04 Feb 2009 23:41:51
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
"garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote
> On Feb 1 2009 10:29 PM, MZB wrote:
>
>> I absolutely go all-in at that point. It's a great hand, but I would
>> prefer
>> no callers.
>
> I'd probably still go busted here, but preflop I'm limping.

Yeah, I guess I am being a little too results oriented in my analysis. It
makes sense in my position to try to milk this situation.



>> Mel
>> "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message
>> news:gm54bm$3r0$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> > Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are
>> > 125/250
>> > 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
>> > combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
>> > mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table
>> > with
>> > a bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and
>> > one
>> > player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows
>> > K3. I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for
>> > a
>> > dumb call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe
>> > that
>> > was the better play.
>
> -----
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
>
>



  
Date: 02 Feb 2009 01:13:46
From: funky cold medina
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
On Feb 1, 11:05=A0pm, "Dutch" <n...@email.com > wrote:

>
> The other thing is I hate is losing a pot due to lack of aggression. I'd
> rather pick up some chips and move on to the next hand and win less than =
I
> might have otherwise rather than let myself get run down, especially on
> Pokerstars, it happens a LOT there.

It stings to get sucked out on, and it happens. Part of the turf when
slow-playing and trapping. Still, the games become so aggressive in
late stage tourney play I prefer to let opponents piss away their
chips when they think you're drawing or fishing for an ace.

That's with a big stack. Short-stack, you're deciding your life pre-
flop on most hands, it's a moot point.


   
Date: 02 Feb 2009 03:34:15
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"funky cold medina" <kellywong74@yahoo.com > wrote
On Feb 1, 11:05 pm, "Dutch" <n...@email.com > wrote:

>
> The other thing is I hate is losing a pot due to lack of aggression. I'd
> rather pick up some chips and move on to the next hand and win less than I
> might have otherwise rather than let myself get run down, especially on
> Pokerstars, it happens a LOT there.

It stings to get sucked out on, and it happens. Part of the turf when
slow-playing and trapping. Still, the games become so aggressive in
late stage tourney play I prefer to let opponents piss away their
chips when they think you're drawing or fishing for an ace.

That's with a big stack. Short-stack, you're deciding your life pre-
flop on most hands, it's a moot point.

I seldom get a big stack because I value survival so highly in a SNG I avoid
taking chances. I do make some moves but usually only in position when its
really obvious that the chips are there for the taking. The guys with the
big stacks early seem to the survivers of a series of big showdowns. I love
meeting them later on in the game when I ratchet up my game and take them
down a few notches. heh I think everybody has to find a style that suits
their personality and I enjoy playing the sleeper rope-a-dope game.



  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 20:34:26
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> I absolutely go all-in at that point. It's a great hand, but I would prefer
> no callers.

WTF? You have 1/2 the avg stack and a premium hand. I pretty much want
everything from QQ on down to weaker aces and kings to call. You don't win
tourneys by just picking up the blinds with premium hands in position at
this point in the tourney.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

-------- 
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Date: 01 Feb 2009 23:43:17
From: MZB
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
You want AK vs QQ???


"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:in9i56xh57.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> I absolutely go all-in at that point. It's a great hand, but I would
>> prefer
>> no callers.
>
> WTF? You have 1/2 the avg stack and a premium hand. I pretty much want
> everything from QQ on down to weaker aces and kings to call. You don't win
> tourneys by just picking up the blinds with premium hands in position at
> this point in the tourney.
>
> Dean
>
> "When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
> 1/16/2009
>
> --------
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
>




    
Date: 01 Feb 2009 22:10:54
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> You want AK vs QQ???

Obviously not as much as the hands I'm crushing, but I'm not going to be
upset about it. When you have half the average stack and you're down to
the final two tables you can't expect to wait to get it in as a 80/20
favorite. If I have position with AK and an earlier position player raises
then I am going all-in. I'm not going to be surprised to be 54/46 when I
get called. I'm not going to think I made the wrong play either.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

_____________________________________________________________________ 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



     
Date: 01 Feb 2009 23:05:16
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:ecfi56x0u7.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> You want AK vs QQ???
>
> Obviously not as much as the hands I'm crushing, but I'm not going to be
> upset about it. When you have half the average stack and you're down to
> the final two tables you can't expect to wait to get it in as a 80/20
> favorite. If I have position with AK and an earlier position player raises
> then I am going all-in. I'm not going to be surprised to be 54/46 when I
> get called. I'm not going to think I made the wrong play either.

I actually put him on KQ suited or QQ for his call, which would explain his
bet back at me. He probably put me on AQ/J or a middle pair, etc, he surely
didn't put me on AK before the flop.

Two things steam me, getting bet off a draw to the nuts then it hitting it
after I fold. But that I can rationalize as playing the percentages.

The other thing is I hate is losing a pot due to lack of aggression. I'd
rather pick up some chips and move on to the next hand and win less than I
might have otherwise rather than let myself get run down, especially on
Pokerstars, it happens a LOT there.

Tonight I had K-Jo late with one short-stacked opponent, flop came AQT
rainbow, so I checked. He went all in with A3h. Turn and river were hearts.

To make the story worse we butted heads an hour later with 3 players left.
He had me just covered, I went all-in with AQh he called with A3o, you
guessed it, river was a 3.





 
Date: 01 Feb 2009 13:49:15
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are 125/250
> 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
> combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
> mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table with a
> bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and one
> player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows K3.
> I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a dumb
> call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that was the
> better play.

Just a bad beat story. I may have just called the flop bet in hopes that
if they have a weaker K, 88-QQ, or are just bluffing I can get more out of
them. I'm not quite sure why you shoved as the only hands that call you
are beating you. However, that wouldn't change your fate as I'm not
folding under any circumstances (OK, 4 to a flush and I don't have the
suit maybe). Once the flop hits you're not looking to get anyone to fold
or fold yourself with the number of chips you have.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

--- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 20:55:49
From: funky cold medina
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
On Feb 1, 2:51=A0pm, "Dutch" <n...@email.com > wrote:
> "MrBookworm" <a825...@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
>
> news:rvhh56xso4.ln2@recgroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are
> >> 125/250
> >> 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
> >> combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
> >> mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table
> >> with a
> >> bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and o=
ne
> >> player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and show=
s
> >> K3.
> >> I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a
> >> dumb
> >> call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that w=
as
> >> the
> >> better play.
>
> > Just a bad beat story.
>
> I thought so too. Calling 1250 with K3 was weird at that point in the gam=
e
>
> > I may have just called the flop bet in hopes that
> > if they have a weaker K, 88-QQ, or are just bluffing I can get more out=
of
> > them. I'm not quite sure why you shoved as the only hands that call you
> > are beating you.
>
> I shoved on the I thought reasonable assumption that I have the best hand
> and I don't want the op to improve. I figured that if he has 33 or 77 he
> would have checked. =A0I couldn't imagine a good hand he has that he woul=
d bet
> out post-flop. I made the mistake maybe of thinking he would check-raise
> with 2 pair. He must have known that there's no way I expect K3, =A0and h=
e
> can't think I have KK.
>
> I took him for a hand like AQ, AT, QQ, or JJ, definitely not K3.
>
> =A0However, that wouldn't change your fate as I'm not
>
> > folding under any circumstances (OK, 4 to a flush and I don't have the
> > suit maybe). Once the flop hits you're not looking to get anyone to fol=
d
> > or fold yourself with the number of chips you have.
>
> > Dean
>
> > "When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinja=
y
> > 1/16/2009
>
> > ---
> > : the next generation of web-newsreaders :http://www.recgroups.com

Horrible beat for you. He made a bad call and got lucky. Agree that
in those conditions at that point in a tourney you're going to be
ahead the majority of the time (unless you're up against a set or Aces
[or two pair due to lousy play]), in the future you might want to
think about smooth calling here to induce him to continue betting.
Yeah, you're taking a chance of letting him suck-out (with hands like
KJ if a jack arrives on the turn/river), but so be it - I'd rather
play it in a manner to induce his aggression and squeeze as many chips
as possible from the hand.


  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 18:11:12
From: Senator Millionaire
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
Stars is corrupt Dutch. It's more likely than not that ALL of them are
corrupt.



  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 16:29:27
From: Senator Millionaire
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
I've won some tournaments at Stars but my best finish was third out of
9,000+ players.

Never forget that Stars is corrupt.


   
Date: 01 Feb 2009 18:00:56
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
"Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com > wrote
> I've won some tournaments at Stars but my best finish was third out of
> 9,000+ players.
>
> Never forget that Stars is corrupt.

I know that is a possibility. I make it a policy never to deposit
hard-earned money. I use freeroll money and sell play chips.



    
Date: 01 Feb 2009 18:35:15
From: gtech1
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
Where do you sell play chips? How much you get for them?
On Feb 1 2009 9:00 PM, Dutch wrote:

> "Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com> wrote
> > I've won some tournaments at Stars but my best finish was third out of
> > 9,000+ players.
> >
> > Never forget that Stars is corrupt.
>
> I know that is a possibility. I make it a policy never to deposit
> hard-earned money. I use freeroll money and sell play chips.

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Date: 01 Feb 2009 19:18:31
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"gtech1" <duanepritchett@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:3o2i56xjb6.ln2@recgroups.com...
> Where do you sell play chips? How much you get for them?

They actually advertise $8/mill, next time I sell I'm going to demand that,
I think the operator I got was skimming.


> On Feb 1 2009 9:00 PM, Dutch wrote:
>
>> "Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com> wrote
>> > I've won some tournaments at Stars but my best finish was third out of
>> > 9,000+ players.
>> >
>> > Never forget that Stars is corrupt.
>>
>> I know that is a possibility. I make it a policy never to deposit
>> hard-earned money. I use freeroll money and sell play chips.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
>



     
Date: 01 Feb 2009 19:16:02
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
"gtech1" <duanepritchett@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:3o2i56xjb6.ln2@recgroups.com...
> Where do you sell play chips? How much you get for them?
> On Feb 1 2009 9:00 PM, Dutch wrote:
>
>> "Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com> wrote
>> > I've won some tournaments at Stars but my best finish was third out of
>> > 9,000+ players.
>> >
>> > Never forget that Stars is corrupt.
>>
>> I know that is a possibility. I make it a policy never to deposit
>> hard-earned money. I use freeroll money and sell play chips.

I use www.pokerbonuscity.net Last time I got $7 for a million, used to be
$10/mill



  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 15:52:13
From: Senator Millionaire
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
Were you playing on Stars? Aces flop more frequently there than the
norm. Betting 5X the big blind is a good bet for a brick and mortar
card room. Online the rules change.


   
Date: 01 Feb 2009 16:07:50
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
"Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com > wrote
> Were you playing on Stars? Aces flop more frequently there than the
> norm. Betting 5X the big blind is a good bet for a brick and mortar
> card room. Online the rules change.

Yea Stars. Another thing, players seem to catch longshots a lot online.


  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 14:51:29
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:rvhh56xso4.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> Two full tables remain (18 players) in a 90 player SNG. Blinds are
>> 125/250
>> 25 ante. Average chip stack is 12,000, I have 6250. First hand at this
>> combined table I am on the button with AKo. Two players limp from
>> mid-position so I decide to attempt to pick up the money on the table
>> with a
>> bet of 1250. If I get a caller I'm not that unhappy. Blinds fold and one
>> player calls. Flop comes K73, op bets 1000, I shove, he calls and shows
>> K3.
>> I am history. Did I play it bad or did the op just get rewarded for a
>> dumb
>> call? I expect a pre-flop all-in would have done the job, maybe that was
>> the
>> better play.
>
> Just a bad beat story.

I thought so too. Calling 1250 with K3 was weird at that point in the game


> I may have just called the flop bet in hopes that
> if they have a weaker K, 88-QQ, or are just bluffing I can get more out of
> them. I'm not quite sure why you shoved as the only hands that call you
> are beating you.

I shoved on the I thought reasonable assumption that I have the best hand
and I don't want the op to improve. I figured that if he has 33 or 77 he
would have checked. I couldn't imagine a good hand he has that he would bet
out post-flop. I made the mistake maybe of thinking he would check-raise
with 2 pair. He must have known that there's no way I expect K3, and he
can't think I have KK.

I took him for a hand like AQ, AT, QQ, or JJ, definitely not K3.


However, that wouldn't change your fate as I'm not
> folding under any circumstances (OK, 4 to a flush and I don't have the
> suit maybe). Once the flop hits you're not looking to get anyone to fold
> or fold yourself with the number of chips you have.
>
> Dean
>
> "When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
> 1/16/2009
>
> ---
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
>



   
Date: 01 Feb 2009 20:40:34
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> I shoved on the I thought reasonable assumption that I have the best hand
> and I don't want the op to improve.

If you have the best hand at this point you should not shove to make them
fold. This is ass-backward thinking. You want to entice them to stay. If
you are ahead on the flop then they have a very small number of outs.

I may just call or even gobble the flop bet. I know I'm not going to fold
once that flop hits so I want all the money in by the river. Shoving on
the flop only gets calls from hands that beat me.

> I took him for a hand like AQ, AT, QQ, or JJ, definitely not K3.

Then why the fuck would you shove? You want EVERY single one of those
hands to stick around. You need a double up!

Of course, this still doesn't change the end result. You and I would both
be going home on that flop with AK no matter how it's played when the opp
has K3 :).

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

____________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




    
Date: 02 Feb 2009 04:01:49
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:23ai56xc67.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> I shoved on the I thought reasonable assumption that I have the best hand
>> and I don't want the op to improve.
>
> If you have the best hand at this point you should not shove to make them
> fold. This is ass-backward thinking. You want to entice them to stay. If
> you are ahead on the flop then they have a very small number of outs.

Why is it ass-backwards to want to take down the hand and avoid allowing
your opponent to run you down? I have lost many a pot because I did not push
my opponents out when I was leading in the hand.

> I may just call or even gobble the flop bet. I know I'm not going to fold
> once that flop hits so I want all the money in by the river. Shoving on
> the flop only gets calls from hands that beat me.

Not necessarily, QQ, KQ, both might call.

>
>> I took him for a hand like AQ, AT, QQ, or JJ, definitely not K3.
>
> Then why the fuck would you shove? You want EVERY single one of those
> hands to stick around. You need a double up!

Nah, I just wanted a profit on the hand. TPTK is not good enough for me to
start slow playing, I need two pair at least.

>
> Of course, this still doesn't change the end result. You and I would both
> be going home on that flop with AK no matter how it's played when the opp
> has K3 :).

THAT is why I should shove immediately with two unmatched cards in my hand
like AK.




     
Date: 02 Feb 2009 11:07:51
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> Why is it ass-backwards to want to take down the hand and avoid allowing
> your opponent to run you down? I have lost many a pot because I did not push
> my opponents out when I was leading in the hand.

So, you asked a question but doesn't sound like you are interested in a
response.

Yes, you lose pots when your opponents suck out. However, you still want
them to try and suck-out when you have them down to 2 -4 outs. In your
situation you had 1/2 the average stack with just 2 tables remaining. The
way you win the fucker is to get paid off on your good hands as well as
taking down pots without showdown. If you only look to take down pots
without getting paid off on your good but not great hands then it will be
much tougher to win first place.

> > once that flop hits so I want all the money in by the river. Shoving on
> > the flop only gets calls from hands that beat me.
>
> Not necessarily, QQ, KQ, both might call.

KQ has only runner runner Q against you and QQ has 2 outs against you. You
don't want a "might call" from them, you want them to call every time.

> >> I took him for a hand like AQ, AT, QQ, or JJ, definitely not K3.
> >
> > Then why the fuck would you shove? You want EVERY single one of those
> > hands to stick around. You need a double up!
>
> Nah, I just wanted a profit on the hand. TPTK is not good enough for me to
> start slow playing, I need two pair at least.

OK, now I understand. You don't think about what your opponents may have
and what you can do to maximize your profits, got it. You may end up
having a better chance at winning tourneys if you move from 1st level
thinking to 2nd level.

> > Of course, this still doesn't change the end result. You and I would both
> > be going home on that flop with AK no matter how it's played when the opp
> > has K3 :).
>
> THAT is why I should shove immediately with two unmatched cards in my hand
> like AK.

So, you would rather shove from the button with AK so K3 will fold rather
than see a flop against them? If you think that is correct then I don't
know what to say.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

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Date: 02 Feb 2009 18:05:30
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote
>> Why is it ass-backwards to want to take down the hand and avoid allowing
>> your opponent to run you down? I have lost many a pot because I did not
>> push
>> my opponents out when I was leading in the hand.
>
> So, you asked a question but doesn't sound like you are interested in a
> response.

I'm not interested in accepting any response I get without question when it
doesn't make sense.

> Yes, you lose pots when your opponents suck out. However, you still want
> them to try and suck-out when you have them down to 2 -4 outs. In your
> situation you had 1/2 the average stack with just 2 tables remaining. The
> way you win the fucker is to get paid off on your good hands as well as
> taking down pots without showdown. If you only look to take down pots
> without getting paid off on your good but not great hands then it will be
> much tougher to win first place.

Thanks for the clarification, good reasoning.

>
>> > once that flop hits so I want all the money in by the river. Shoving on
>> > the flop only gets calls from hands that beat me.
>>
>> Not necessarily, QQ, KQ, both might call.
>
> KQ has only runner runner Q against you and QQ has 2 outs against you. You
> don't want a "might call" from them, you want them to call every time.
>
>> >> I took him for a hand like AQ, AT, QQ, or JJ, definitely not K3.
>> >
>> > Then why the fuck would you shove? You want EVERY single one of those
>> > hands to stick around. You need a double up!
>>
>> Nah, I just wanted a profit on the hand. TPTK is not good enough for me
>> to
>> start slow playing, I need two pair at least.
>
> OK, now I understand. You don't think about what your opponents may have
> and what you can do to maximize your profits, got it. You may end up
> having a better chance at winning tourneys if you move from 1st level
> thinking to 2nd level.

I get what you're saying, and you're probably right about winning more, but
I think I finish in the money more often by avoiding danger.


>
>> > Of course, this still doesn't change the end result. You and I would
>> > both
>> > be going home on that flop with AK no matter how it's played when the
>> > opp
>> > has K3 :).
>>
>> THAT is why I should shove immediately with two unmatched cards in my
>> hand
>> like AK.
>
> So, you would rather shove from the button with AK so K3 will fold rather
> than see a flop against them? If you think that is correct then I don't
> know what to say.

No, if I knew specifically I was going to induce a call with K-3 with my bet
then of course I'd make it every time, I have him dominated, but what
happens is that there a lot of hands that have me beat call, like pairs.
Then there is live cards like QJ suited that might stick around and hit.

Heh, it just happened again as we speak. this time it worked out!



       
Date: 02 Feb 2009 18:44:41
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> I get what you're saying, and you're probably right about winning more, but
> I think I finish in the money more often by avoiding danger.

Of course you do, which is less than you'd make if you took 1st more
often. You're playing to cash, which is correct in a 1 table SnG. In a
multi-table tourney you need to look for the win to really make any money.
Russ said something about cashing dozens of times doesn't make you as
much as winning once, and he is correct.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

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Date: 02 Feb 2009 21:30:48
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:plnk56xbgg.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> I get what you're saying, and you're probably right about winning more,
>> but
>> I think I finish in the money more often by avoiding danger.
>
> Of course you do, which is less than you'd make if you took 1st more
> often. You're playing to cash, which is correct in a 1 table SnG. In a
> multi-table tourney you need to look for the win to really make any money.
> Russ said something about cashing dozens of times doesn't make you as
> much as winning once, and he is correct.

Interesting.. probably right. I'll play around with that idea, but the thing
is, I play for such low stakes that the prize money isn't the issue per, its
being successful that I enjoy.

Thanks for the feedback.



         
Date: 04 Feb 2009 04:46:35
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote in message
news:gm8kqm$pfb$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:plnk56xbgg.ln2@recgroups.com...
>>> I get what you're saying, and you're probably right about winning more,
>>> but
>>> I think I finish in the money more often by avoiding danger.
>>
>> Of course you do, which is less than you'd make if you took 1st more
>> often. You're playing to cash, which is correct in a 1 table SnG. In a
>> multi-table tourney you need to look for the win to really make any
>> money.
>> Russ said something about cashing dozens of times doesn't make you as
>> much as winning once, and he is correct.
>
> Interesting.. probably right. I'll play around with that idea, but the
> thing is, I play for such low stakes that the prize money isn't the issue
> per, its being successful that I enjoy.
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
Someone echo this, because Dutchie has me killfiled.

If you define "successful" as 'making the money " X% of the time, even
though you're losing money overall, is it a good definition?

I tend to define successful tourney play as +ROI over time.


>




          
Date: 03 Feb 2009 21:37:58
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
> If you define "successful" as 'making the money " X% of the time, even
> though you're losing money overall, is it a good definition?
>
> I tend to define successful tourney play as +ROI over time.

I was trying to explain that as well.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

----- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




           
Date: 04 Feb 2009 13:26:52
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote
>> If you define "successful" as 'making the money " X% of the time, even
>> though you're losing money overall, is it a good definition?

Maybe not, but that's not the issue. I play for fun, the stakes are small
and the actual theoretical final $ amount is not necessarily the most
important factor, the most important factor to me is to have fun and have my
stake continue to grow at a more or less steady pace, and the
tight/aggressive style I play and which is comfortable for me allows me to
cash a high percentage of the time. I also win a fair bit, with a bit of
luck. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't some very successful tournament
players use this style effectively, like Phil Hellmuth?

Incidentally, life on rgp without you and your arrested adolescence is a
breath of fresh air.

>> I tend to define successful tourney play as +ROI over time.
>
> I was trying to explain that as well.

You quoted that it is more profitable to try win more often at the expense
of finishing "in the money" less often. I didn't disagree with that premise,
it may well be the case. However its not that simple in application. Playing
to win implies a change in style and tactics. How exactly does one make such
a change successfully? I watch players "mixing it up" all the time, half of
them are gone early, half build big stacks early. When I encounter some of
those big stacks later on, often as not their stacks are not significantly
bigger than mine, and I didn't go through a series of coin-flips. If I had
the skill to just change my style and automatically be more successful I
would probably do it, but when I have tried I tend to feel like a fish out
of water and I do poorly. However, I have started to look for ways to tweak
my approach in this direction, any suggestions along those lines will be
gratefully taken under advisement.



            
Date: 04 Feb 2009 16:05:51
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
a change successfully? I watch players "mixing it up" all the time, half
of
> them are gone early, half build big stacks early. When I encounter some of
> those big stacks later on, often as not their stacks are not significantly

When I get a big stack early I quite often keep it. That big stack early
is a big advantage, but the small stakes players don't realize it and
often loosen up.

I'm saying to go to 2 or 3 levels of thinking. What do I have? What does
my opponent have? What does my opponent think I have? When you do this you
will start picking off more bluffs, bluffing more yourself, and betting
for value more. The key is that you will be doing this profitably.
Sometimes you'll get to question 3 and be close to certain that your bet
will not get called, regardless of what 2 cards you hold.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

_______________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




             
Date: 04 Feb 2009 17:41:30
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:v3np56xk49.ln2@recgroups.com...
>a change successfully? I watch players "mixing it up" all the time, half
> of
>> them are gone early, half build big stacks early. When I encounter some
>> of
>> those big stacks later on, often as not their stacks are not
>> significantly
>
> When I get a big stack early I quite often keep it. That big stack early
> is a big advantage, but the small stakes players don't realize it and
> often loosen up.

I am pretty adept at managing a big stack once I get it, the thing is I
don't get them very often because I don't tend to take big risks.
>
> I'm saying to go to 2 or 3 levels of thinking. What do I have? What does
> my opponent have? What does my opponent think I have? When you do this you
> will start picking off more bluffs, bluffing more yourself, and betting
> for value more. The key is that you will be doing this profitably.
> Sometimes you'll get to question 3 and be close to certain that your bet
> will not get called, regardless of what 2 cards you hold.
>
> Dean

I guess that's where I'm at. I can exploit those opportunities at times,
just not as frequently as a better player does.



           
Date: 04 Feb 2009 09:33:47
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"MrBookworm" <a825b33@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:m6mn56xarv.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> If you define "successful" as 'making the money " X% of the time, even
>> though you're losing money overall, is it a good definition?
>>
>> I tend to define successful tourney play as +ROI over time.
>
> I was trying to explain that as well.
>
> Dean
It's hard to explain things to dutch.
He refuses to think. He did his thinking decades ago, he's done with it now.




  
Date: 01 Feb 2009 14:38:37
From: Senator Millionaire
Subject: Re: What would you have done?
AK is very strong on stars. You should have pushed all in preflop.


   
Date: 01 Feb 2009 15:25:34
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: What would you have done?

"Senator Millionaire" <moone99@gmail.com > wrote
> AK is very strong on stars. You should have pushed all in preflop.

Makes sense, since my goal was to pick up the blinds, limps and antes.