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Date: 21 Feb 2009 10:12:02
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.

How about a measly $100?

Russ Georgiev

www.pokermafia.com
www.pokerunchecked.com
www.russgeorgiev.com




 
Date: 21 Feb 2009 21:40:51
From: da pickle no spam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21, 5:12 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com > wrote:

< I loe it this will prove just how many here don't know how to read
LOL

I loe it will also! LOL also! (meds much?)


 
Date: 21 Feb 2009 11:24:47
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 12:12 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
>
> How about a measly $100?
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.com
> www.pokerunchecked.com
> www.russgeorgiev.com

A23x K vs A2349 =10 cards

444,5555,6666,7777,8888,999 = good cards =22

10,10,10,10,JJJJ QQQQ KKK AA 22 33= bad cards=21

If you set this up with pat 9 consisting of 98765 , you increase the edge
over the draw hand

4444,555,666,777,888,999 =19 good cards

This why I said you could take either side of this depending on the pat
9's holdings

Your original OP said a "pat 9" .. wasnt specific

Thus .. I am the only one to get it "correct", and I assume you knew that
when you posted it .


Jason,you,
sir, are much, much stupider than FangBanger.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 13:24:40
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 11:24 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 12:12 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
>
> > You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> > JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> > drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> > can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
> >
> > How about a measly $100?
> >
> > Russ Georgiev
> >
> > www.pokermafia.com
> > www.pokerunchecked.com
> > www.russgeorgiev.com
>
> A23x K vs A2349 =10 cards
>
> 444,5555,6666,7777,8888,999 = good cards =22
>
but 3 of the 22 are just tie cards, they don't help the draw any more than
the pat hand. It's 19 to win, 3 to break even, and 21 to lose, still a
bad bet for the draw.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 10:38:29
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 12:12 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
>
> How about a measly $100?
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.com
> www.pokerunchecked.com
> www.russgeorgiev.com

Russ, first off learn to post so they don't come out blank. It's not that
hard.

Second,

A2349 vs A23(Jok)K

There are 53 cards in the deck. 10 are in the hands. The other 43 are
available to draw. Of those 43,

3 (the 9s) are ties
19 (3x 4s, 4x 5s,6s,7s and 8s) are wins for the draw
the remaining 21 are wins for the pat hand

So I stand precisely by my statement - the pat hand is a favorite.

And no, I wouldn't bet you because I don't bet with cheats or brokes.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 13:14:47
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 12:38 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 12:12 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
>
> > You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> > JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> > drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> > can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
> >
> > How about a measly $100?
> >
> > Russ Georgiev
> >
> > www.pokermafia.com
> > www.pokerunchecked.com
> > www.russgeorgiev.com
>
> Russ, first off learn to post so they don't come out blank. It's not that
> hard.
>
> Second,
>
> A2349 vs A23(Jok)K
>
> There are 53 cards in the deck. 10 are in the hands. The other 43 are
> available to draw. Of those 43,
>
> 3 (the 9s) are ties
> 19 (3x 4s, 4x 5s,6s,7s and 8s) are wins for the draw
> the remaining 21 are wins for the pat hand
>
> So I stand precisely by my statement - the pat hand is a favorite.
>
> And no, I wouldn't bet you because I don't bet with cheats or brokes.
>
> Wayne Vinson
> http://cardsharp.org/
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

and how does this prove him wrong ?


Jason,you,
sir, are much, much stupider than FangBanger.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 15:15:51
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
> and how does this prove him wrong ?

He's on record arguing the draw is the favorite when in fact it's the pat
A2349 (which wins 21 vs. the draw winning 19). Hence Russ is wrong, and
would have lost the bet.

Of course, this being Russ (the cheat and broke) the bet was a scam in the
first place, hence why I passed on it.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 13:33:51
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 1:14 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 12:38 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21 2009 12:12 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> > > JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> > > drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> > > can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
> > >
> > > How about a measly $100?
> > >
> > > Russ Georgiev
> > >
> > > www.pokermafia.com
> > > www.pokerunchecked.com
> > > www.russgeorgiev.com
> >
> > Russ, first off learn to post so they don't come out blank. It's not that
> > hard.
> >
> > Second,
> >
> > A2349 vs A23(Jok)K
> >
> > There are 53 cards in the deck. 10 are in the hands. The other 43 are
> > available to draw. Of those 43,
> >
> > 3 (the 9s) are ties
> > 19 (3x 4s, 4x 5s,6s,7s and 8s) are wins for the draw
> > the remaining 21 are wins for the pat hand
> >
> > So I stand precisely by my statement - the pat hand is a favorite.
> >
> > And no, I wouldn't bet you because I don't bet with cheats or brokes.
> >
> > Wayne Vinson
> > http://cardsharp.org/
> > Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
>
> and how does this prove him wrong ?
>
Uh, because a hand with 21 ways to win is a favorite over a hand with 19
ways to win. The three tie cards do not push the hand in favor of the
draw, they are woth just as much to the pat hand.
>
> Jason,you,
> sir, are much, much stupider than FangBanger.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 15:11:48
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
> Uh, because a hand with 21 ways to win is a favorite over a hand with 19
> ways to win. The three tie cards do not push the hand in favor of the
> draw, they are woth just as much to the pat hand.

This should be obvious to anyone who can add.

What we've proven here is that neither Russ nor Doggy can add.


Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 17:09:43
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 4:11 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> > Uh, because a hand with 21 ways to win is a favorite over a hand with 19
> > ways to win. The three tie cards do not push the hand in favor of the
> > draw, they are woth just as much to the pat hand.
>
> This should be obvious to anyone who can add.
>
> What we've proven here is that neither Russ nor Doggy can add.
>
>
> Wayne Vinson
> http://cardsharp.org/
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

I am truely sorry Wayne
But in this case it proves you can't read.

Try again and think Mike Caro.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 13:49:02
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 1:33 PM, Steam wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 1:14 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21 2009 12:38 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 21 2009 12:12 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> > > > JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> > > > drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> > > > can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
> > > >
> > > > How about a measly $100?
> > > >
> > > > Russ Georgiev
> > > >
> > > > www.pokermafia.com
> > > > www.pokerunchecked.com
> > > > www.russgeorgiev.com
> > >
> > > Russ, first off learn to post so they don't come out blank. It's not
that
> > > hard.
> > >
> > > Second,
> > >
> > > A2349 vs A23(Jok)K
> > >
> > > There are 53 cards in the deck. 10 are in the hands. The other 43 are
> > > available to draw. Of those 43,
> > >
> > > 3 (the 9s) are ties
> > > 19 (3x 4s, 4x 5s,6s,7s and 8s) are wins for the draw
> > > the remaining 21 are wins for the pat hand
> > >
> > > So I stand precisely by my statement - the pat hand is a favorite.
> > >
> > > And no, I wouldn't bet you because I don't bet with cheats or brokes.
> > >
> > > Wayne Vinson
> > > http://cardsharp.org/
> > > Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
> >
> > and how does this prove him wrong ?
> >
> Uh, because a hand with 21 ways to win is a favorite over a hand with 19
> ways to win. The three tie cards do not push the hand in favor of the
> draw, they are woth just as much to the pat hand.
> >
> > Jason,you,
> > sir, are much, much stupider than FangBanger.

Lets look at A2369 vs A23XK

Now we have

4444, 5555, 666, 7777, 8888, and 999 as wins, so now the draw has 22 outs
for a pure win (no tie cards) and is the favorite, because he also has a
draw to a better 9. So we certainly haven't givien a definitive answer as
to whether the draw is better than the pat hand, without knowing the pat
hand.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 14:18:26
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
>
> Lets look at A2369 vs A23XK
>
> Now we have
>
> 4444, 5555, 666, 7777, 8888, and 999 as wins, so now the draw has 22 outs
> for a pure win (no tie cards) and is the favorite, because he also has a
> draw to a better 9. So we certainly haven't givien a definitive answer as
> to whether the draw is better than the pat hand, without knowing the pat
> hand.

How about A2359 vs A23XK

4444, 555, 6666, 7777, 8888, and 999 same 22 win cards for the draw

So, I would say, I haven't worked out any other examples, that if the
three low cards are copied (which reduces the bad cards for the draw hand
by 3), and the pat 9 hand is anything besides a smooth 9, then the draw is
the favorite (meaning A23 joker anything), otherwise the draw is a dog.
Because it leaves too many bad cards in the deck for the draw hand, and
reduces the win cards.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 10:17:46
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
Just so you understand and no mistakes. I say the pat 9 is not a
favorite to beat A23-JOKER-K. Do you call?




On Feb 21, 10:12=EF=BF=BDam, "RussGeorg...@aol.com" <RussGeorg...@aol.com >
wrote:
> You just posted that A2349 is a favorite over a drawing hand (A23-
> JOKER-K) in lowball. How much do you what to bet it won't beat the
> drawing hand? And with all your math equipment and knowledge, you
> can't figure out a simple problem like this. You are a joke.
>
> How about a measly $100?
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.comwww.pokerunchecked.comwww.russgeorgiev.com



  
Date: 21 Feb 2009 17:12:17
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 11:17 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> Just so you understand and no mistakes. I say the pat 9 is not a
> favorite to beat A23-JOKER-K. Do you call?
>


Good god Russ!
I loe it this will prove just how many here don't know how to read LOL

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 18:35:13
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 5:12 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 11:17 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Just so you understand and no mistakes. I say the pat 9 is not a
> > favorite to beat A23-JOKER-K. Do you call?
> >
>
>
> Good god Russ!
> I loe it this will prove just how many here don't know how to read LOL

Sounds like some kind of sucker bar bet to me. If you turn the cards face
up and bet someone that this hand won't beat that hand on the next card,
then fine. It is also true that even over 1000s of trials the pat smooth
9 is not a favorite to "to beat" the draw the majority of the time. It is
of course a favorite to be money well ahead over numerous trials, which is
precisely what I would expect someone to mean when they said a favorite
"to beat" (and I suspect the great majority of people), but I can see how
someone would define it the other way.

I should have known this was probably a silly trick, and if what Russ said
wasn't precisely defined beforehand, one that would result in both parties
believing they were correct. Probably why nobody took the bet.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 19:11:21
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 6:35 PM, Steam wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 5:12 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21 2009 11:17 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > Just so you understand and no mistakes. I say the pat 9 is not a
> > > favorite to beat A23-JOKER-K. Do you call?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Good god Russ!
> > I loe it this will prove just how many here don't know how to read LOL
>
> Sounds like some kind of sucker bar bet to me. If you turn the cards face
> up and bet someone that this hand won't beat that hand on the next card,
> then fine. It is also true that even over 1000s of trials the pat smooth
> 9 is not a favorite to "to beat" the draw the majority of the time. It is
> of course a favorite to be money well ahead over numerous trials, which is
> precisely what I would expect someone to mean when they said a favorite
> "to beat" (and I suspect the great majority of people), but I can see how
> someone would define it the other way.
>
> I should have known this was probably a silly trick, and if what Russ said
> wasn't precisely defined beforehand, one that would result in both parties
> believing they were correct. Probably why nobody took the bet.

I will admit that Russ probably knew this from the beginning when he
countered Wayne with a bet proposition (that the pat smooth 9 was not a
favorite "to beat" the draw) because of his wording of the bet which was
different from Waynes statement that the pat 9 was a favorite.

I am not convinced that Fangbanger knew what he was arguing.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 21:22:43
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 9:11 PM, Steam wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 6:35 PM, Steam wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21 2009 5:12 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 21 2009 11:17 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just so you understand and no mistakes. I say the pat 9 is not a
> > > > favorite to beat A23-JOKER-K. Do you call?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Good god Russ!
> > > I loe it this will prove just how many here don't know how to read LOL
> >
> > Sounds like some kind of sucker bar bet to me. If you turn the cards face
> > up and bet someone that this hand won't beat that hand on the next card,
> > then fine. It is also true that even over 1000s of trials the pat smooth
> > 9 is not a favorite to "to beat" the draw the majority of the time. It is
> > of course a favorite to be money well ahead over numerous trials, which is
> > precisely what I would expect someone to mean when they said a favorite
> > "to beat" (and I suspect the great majority of people), but I can see how
> > someone would define it the other way.
> >
> > I should have known this was probably a silly trick, and if what Russ said
> > wasn't precisely defined beforehand, one that would result in both parties
> > believing they were correct. Probably why nobody took the bet.
>
> I will admit that Russ probably knew this from the beginning when he
> countered Wayne with a bet proposition (that the pat smooth 9 was not a
> favorite "to beat" the draw) because of his wording of the bet which was
> different from Waynes statement that the pat 9 was a favorite.
>
> I am not convinced that Fangbanger knew what he was arguing.

The genesis of this was Russ's OP which mentioned nothing about a smooth 9


      
Date: 21 Feb 2009 22:19:41
From: Steam
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
On Feb 21 2009 9:22 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Feb 21 2009 9:11 PM, Steam wrote:
>
> > On Feb 21 2009 6:35 PM, Steam wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 21 2009 5:12 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Feb 21 2009 11:17 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just so you understand and no mistakes. I say the pat 9 is not a
> > > > > favorite to beat A23-JOKER-K. Do you call?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good god Russ!
> > > > I loe it this will prove just how many here don't know how to read LOL
> > >
> > > Sounds like some kind of sucker bar bet to me. If you turn the cards
face
> > > up and bet someone that this hand won't beat that hand on the next card,
> > > then fine. It is also true that even over 1000s of trials the pat smooth
> > > 9 is not a favorite to "to beat" the draw the majority of the time. It
is
> > > of course a favorite to be money well ahead over numerous trials, which
is
> > > precisely what I would expect someone to mean when they said a favorite
> > > "to beat" (and I suspect the great majority of people), but I can see how
> > > someone would define it the other way.
> > >
> > > I should have known this was probably a silly trick, and if what Russ
said
> > > wasn't precisely defined beforehand, one that would result in both
parties
> > > believing they were correct. Probably why nobody took the bet.
> >
> > I will admit that Russ probably knew this from the beginning when he
> > countered Wayne with a bet proposition (that the pat smooth 9 was not a
> > favorite "to beat" the draw) because of his wording of the bet which was
> > different from Waynes statement that the pat 9 was a favorite.
> >
> > I am not convinced that Fangbanger knew what he was arguing.
>
> The genesis of this was Russ's OP which mentioned nothing about a smooth 9

Here is what he originally mentioned:

"Game, LOWBALL DRAW, 52 cards and a joker, one draw.

Proposition I'm laying anyone. SHOWDOWN--meaning no betting after the
draw

If I gave you a pat 9 or a drawing hand A23-joker-k, which would you
take?

Next, anyone want to bet on whether they get this right?"

This is obviously asking which hand is a straight favorite, not a favorite
"to beat".

He also stated this:

"WHYKNOW, your answer is WRONG. Not gather your money and BET. A pat
> A2349 is not a favorite over A23-JOKER-K."

This statement by Russ is clearly incorrect. He changed the language
before he propositioned a bet (which was not taken), but only after
incorrectly saying that Wayne's statement was wrong. His bet proposition
may have been correct, depending on how you define his proposition, but
that was only after he had already been clearly wrong in his earlier
statement.

Wayne's "proof" was only to show which hand was an overall favorite, and
going by Russ's original statements, that was what Russ was asking, and
Wayne's proof was correct.

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Date: 21 Feb 2009 22:31:19
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: WHYKNOW Vinson---Russ G
> Wayne's "proof" was only to show which hand was an overall favorite, and
> going by Russ's original statements, that was what Russ was asking, and
> Wayne's proof was correct.

Precisely. Russ has tried to tapdance, change the rules, hide by moving
from thread to thread, and has made numerous false statements. But the
facts are immutable, and are on my side.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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