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Date: 17 Dec 2008 05:43:59
From: MMelia
Subject: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.

I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
played for in a final game at the end. We then play every week for a $20
buy in, and the weekly game pays the top two. Blinds start at 50/25 and
everyone gets 6000 starting stack. We have 12 players. Depending on
where you place in the weekly game, you get points. Points begin at 10
for 1st, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, down to zero. No shows get zero points for
that week. The points get added up over the ten weeks. Top 4 in points
get to play in the final game, the remaining players will play one more
game and the winner gets to sit in at the final. You get extra chips
added to your starting stack in the final game based on the points you
have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.

Last night, there were 7 players that showed up. Blinds got to 200/400
and one player was severely short stacked. She had about 850 left. I had
around 3000 and was on the BB with Q 10os, Billy had me out chipped by
about 600, and the SB was around his starting amount of 6000. It was
folded to Billy who was to the short stacks right. He limped, she moved
all in. It folds to the small blind who calls. 1650 in the pot, Iím
pretty sure Billy is just going to call, so I call the extra 450, and
Billy calls as well. Pot is 2550.

Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are some
laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
wasnít smiling) I think one of them even mentioned it being checked down
since there was a player all in. This is, IMHO, out of line.

Flop comes Q high with 2 clubs. I donít have a club. SB checks, I reach
for chips and the SB starts needling me about betting. Billy joins in
with some moans and groans. Apparently the consensus is I should check
even if I have something. I think my chances of having the all in person
beat with just the Q is good, I also think that my chances of having the
sb beat right now is good too. When Billy started grumbling, I figured he
must at least have a draw to the flush, but Iím probably ahead at the
moment. I decided to push the remaining of my stack, sb folds out of
turn, all-in looks disgusted, and Billy is frustrated. He takes a long
time to fold, complaining the whole time that he has the nut draw, blah
blah blah, and how this should be checked around when some one is all in
and Iím not playing right, etc.

It got worse when the river was a club. :)
I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
the WSOP?

Mike

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 07:18:16
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 7:43 AM, MMelia wrote:

> I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.
>
> I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
> 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
> played for in a final game at the end. We then play every week for a $20
> buy in, and the weekly game pays the top two. Blinds start at 50/25 and
> everyone gets 6000 starting stack. We have 12 players. Depending on
> where you place in the weekly game, you get points. Points begin at 10
> for 1st, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, down to zero. No shows get zero points for
> that week. The points get added up over the ten weeks. Top 4 in points
> get to play in the final game, the remaining players will play one more
> game and the winner gets to sit in at the final. You get extra chips
> added to your starting stack in the final game based on the points you
> have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
>
> Last night, there were 7 players that showed up. Blinds got to 200/400
> and one player was severely short stacked. She had about 850 left. I had
> around 3000 and was on the BB with Q 10os, Billy had me out chipped by
> about 600, and the SB was around his starting amount of 6000. It was
> folded to Billy who was to the short stacks right. He limped, she moved
> all in. It folds to the small blind who calls. 1650 in the pot, Iím
> pretty sure Billy is just going to call, so I call the extra 450, and
> Billy calls as well. Pot is 2550.
>
> Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are some
> laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
> wasnít smiling) I think one of them even mentioned it being checked down
> since there was a player all in. This is, IMHO, out of line.
>
> Flop comes Q high with 2 clubs. I donít have a club. SB checks, I reach
> for chips and the SB starts needling me about betting. Billy joins in
> with some moans and groans. Apparently the consensus is I should check
> even if I have something. I think my chances of having the all in person
> beat with just the Q is good, I also think that my chances of having the
> sb beat right now is good too. When Billy started grumbling, I figured he
> must at least have a draw to the flush, but Iím probably ahead at the
> moment. I decided to push the remaining of my stack, sb folds out of
> turn, all-in looks disgusted, and Billy is frustrated. He takes a long
> time to fold, complaining the whole time that he has the nut draw, blah
> blah blah, and how this should be checked around when some one is all in
> and Iím not playing right, etc.
>
> It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> the WSOP?
>
> Mike

A major relevant fact is that your top pair is better than a coin flip
against a lot of flush draws (the exception being those that also have a
pair, or in this case the Ac or Kc. Those are closer to flips.

While bluffing ainto dry side pot is obviously wrong, under certain
circumstances value betting into one can be correct. The potential
problems here lie with your poor kicker moreso that any concern that one
player is all in. Given that the pot was about the size of your stack, I
can see a push being correct here even with a very weak kicker.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:47:25
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 7:43 AM, MMelia wrote:

> I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.
>
> I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
> 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be

> have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.

These two parts weren't clear. I sure hope that you don't pay $60 a week
for 10 weeks and the winner of the big involved thing just gets his money
back in the form of a tourney entry?!?

> It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> the WSOP?

You should stop playing with people who cheat.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:56:49
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 9:47 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 7:43 AM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.
> >
> > I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
> > 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
>
> > have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> > Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
>
> These two parts weren't clear. I sure hope that you don't pay $60 a week
> for 10 weeks and the winner of the big involved thing just gets his money
> back in the form of a tourney entry?!?

No, $60 in the beginning for the final game prize pool. The $20 is
weekly, and is the prize pool for that night. 7 weeks left.

>
> > It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> > I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> > today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> > coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> > much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> > with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> > for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> > the WSOP?
>
> You should stop playing with people who cheat.

After this one is over I probably will.

>
> ---
> Morphy
> xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
> http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
> "SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 10:03:01
From: Ian Stuart
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 3:56 PM, MMelia wrote:
> > You should stop playing with people who cheat.
>
> After this one is over I probably will.
>

At least try and educate them first as it's possible they were unaware
that what they were doing is classed as collusion and against the rules.
If they doubt you, point them to any popular poker forum and invite them
to post the situation for clarification.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 07:02:26
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 9:56 AM, MMelia wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 9:47 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
>
> > On Dec 17 2008 7:43 AM, MMelia wrote:
> >
> > > I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the
situation.
> > >
> > > I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament
over
> > > 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
> >
> > > have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> > > Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
> >
> > These two parts weren't clear. I sure hope that you don't pay $60 a week
> > for 10 weeks and the winner of the big involved thing just gets his money
> > back in the form of a tourney entry?!?
>
> No, $60 in the beginning for the final game prize pool. The $20 is
> weekly, and is the prize pool for that night. 7 weeks left.

Dah.. still not clear, my head is in a fog today. $60 is one time, to
join and gets played for in the final game. $20 is weekly, and gets
played for that night. Top two weekly get paid.
>
> >
> > > It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> > > I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> > > today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> > > coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> > > much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> > > with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> > > for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> > > the WSOP?
> >
> > You should stop playing with people who cheat.
>
> After this one is over I probably will.
>
> >
> > ---
> > Morphy
> > xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
> > http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
> > "SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:28:38
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
You should not have got involved in the first place.


On Dec 17 2008 8:43 AM, MMelia wrote:

> I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.
>
> I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
> 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
> played for in a final game at the end. We then play every week for a $20
> buy in, and the weekly game pays the top two. Blinds start at 50/25 and
> everyone gets 6000 starting stack. We have 12 players. Depending on
> where you place in the weekly game, you get points. Points begin at 10
> for 1st, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, down to zero. No shows get zero points for
> that week. The points get added up over the ten weeks. Top 4 in points
> get to play in the final game, the remaining players will play one more
> game and the winner gets to sit in at the final. You get extra chips
> added to your starting stack in the final game based on the points you
> have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
>
> Last night, there were 7 players that showed up. Blinds got to 200/400
> and one player was severely short stacked. She had about 850 left. I had
> around 3000 and was on the BB with Q 10os, Billy had me out chipped by
> about 600, and the SB was around his starting amount of 6000. It was
> folded to Billy who was to the short stacks right. He limped, she moved
> all in. It folds to the small blind who calls. 1650 in the pot, Iím
> pretty sure Billy is just going to call, so I call the extra 450, and
> Billy calls as well. Pot is 2550.
>
> Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are some
> laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
> wasnít smiling) I think one of them even mentioned it being checked down
> since there was a player all in. This is, IMHO, out of line.
>
> Flop comes Q high with 2 clubs. I donít have a club. SB checks, I reach
> for chips and the SB starts needling me about betting. Billy joins in
> with some moans and groans. Apparently the consensus is I should check
> even if I have something. I think my chances of having the all in person
> beat with just the Q is good, I also think that my chances of having the
> sb beat right now is good too. When Billy started grumbling, I figured he
> must at least have a draw to the flush, but Iím probably ahead at the
> moment. I decided to push the remaining of my stack, sb folds out of
> turn, all-in looks disgusted, and Billy is frustrated. He takes a long
> time to fold, complaining the whole time that he has the nut draw, blah
> blah blah, and how this should be checked around when some one is all in
> and Iím not playing right, etc.
>
> It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> the WSOP?
>
> Mike

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Date: 18 Dec 2008 10:01:04
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 18, 12:53=A0pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu >
wrote:
> On Dec 17 2008 9:53 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 9:24 pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu>
> > wrote:
> > > On Dec 17 2008 7:55 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>
> > > > about these situations. Your comment that he shouldn't be playing
> > > > Queens in this situation is all about over-adjusting to a tournamen=
t
> > > > situation. You are four-handed and you have Queens. Gawd.
>
> > > Let's see. =A0You have one player who limps in a situation where any =
hand
> > > worth playing is worth a raise so clearly he can't be fishing for a r=
aise.
>
> > > He got the raise he wasn't fishing for and you don't need to worry ab=
out
> > > that at all.
>
> > > Then another player comes in seemingly unconcerned in the least that =
the
> > > original limper might be planning a back raise.
>
> > > So, you've got queens, =A0you've got the nuts.
>
> > > Am I understanding you correctly?
>
> > > i'll have to take notes.
>
> > I would fold Queens here against some players who took the action you
> > describe. The players the original poster described do not scare me if
> > I have Queens. I am not sure that my impression of these players is
> > correct and they might be players against whom it would be good to
> > fold Queens. But it doesn't sound like it.
>
> That's why I said queens is a little less certian than QT.
>
> Although I can certqainly see calling with queens, I can't see wanting to
> be in a big hurry to get all the chips in with queens in this situation.
>
> But I'm seldom as sure about everything as you clowns.

Without actual players, I'm not sure of anything but I'm _pretty_ sure
I'm short-stacked and would like to get my chance to double up or
better. Queens would look pretty good, just as QT does not.

As it turned out, the looming traps that you envisage were not
present. No one was lurking to back-raise and Queens would have been a
very good hand to have. And I'm not assuming the Queen in the flop.
Obviously, that might not be true next time.

--
Will in New Haven



  
Date: 17 Dec 2008 18:53:28
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17, 9:24 pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu >
wrote:
> On Dec 17 2008 7:55 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>
> > about these situations. Your comment that he shouldn't be playing
> > Queens in this situation is all about over-adjusting to a tournament
> > situation. You are four-handed and you have Queens. Gawd.
>
> Let's see. You have one player who limps in a situation where any hand
> worth playing is worth a raise so clearly he can't be fishing for a raise.
>
> He got the raise he wasn't fishing for and you don't need to worry about
> that at all.
>
> Then another player comes in seemingly unconcerned in the least that the
> original limper might be planning a back raise.
>
> So, you've got queens, you've got the nuts.
>
> Am I understanding you correctly?
>
> i'll have to take notes.

I would fold Queens here against some players who took the action you
describe. The players the original poster described do not scare me if
I have Queens. I am not sure that my impression of these players is
correct and they might be players against whom it would be good to
fold Queens. But it doesn't sound like it.

--
Will in New Haven



   
Date: 18 Dec 2008 09:53:27
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 9:53 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:

> On Dec 17, 9:24 pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu>
> wrote:
> > On Dec 17 2008 7:55 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> >
> > > about these situations. Your comment that he shouldn't be playing
> > > Queens in this situation is all about over-adjusting to a tournament
> > > situation. You are four-handed and you have Queens. Gawd.
> >
> > Let's see. You have one player who limps in a situation where any hand
> > worth playing is worth a raise so clearly he can't be fishing for a raise.
> >
> > He got the raise he wasn't fishing for and you don't need to worry about
> > that at all.
> >
> > Then another player comes in seemingly unconcerned in the least that the
> > original limper might be planning a back raise.
> >
> > So, you've got queens, you've got the nuts.
> >
> > Am I understanding you correctly?
> >
> > i'll have to take notes.
>
> I would fold Queens here against some players who took the action you
> describe. The players the original poster described do not scare me if
> I have Queens. I am not sure that my impression of these players is
> correct and they might be players against whom it would be good to
> fold Queens. But it doesn't sound like it.
>

That's why I said queens is a little less certian than QT.

Although I can certqainly see calling with queens, I can't see wanting to
be in a big hurry to get all the chips in with queens in this situation.

But I'm seldom as sure about everything as you clowns.


> --
> Will in New Haven

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 16:55:37
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17, 4:45 pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu >
wrote:
> On Dec 17 2008 2:06 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 1:34 pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu>
> > wrote:
> > > On Dec 17 2008 1:18 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
> > > > > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand
> like
> > > > > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably
> going
> > > > > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > > > > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to
> get
> > > > > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
>
> > > > > edlo77
>
> > > > I've got to agree with this. The preflop call was not good.
>
> > > And, he keeps asking the wrong questions and insisting that he, and only
> > > he, knows the right question.
>
> > Gary, you are obsessive. He asked _a_ question.
>
> Yes, I know what he did.
>
> > He didn't ask us to
> > improve his play. He asked about the way his opponents acted and
> > whether it was justified or appropriate. It wasn't. Sure, he played
> > the hand badly but why do you care if he plays well or badly. If he
> > wanted strategy advice he could ask for it.
>
> He did ask for strategy advice.
>
> He asked whether he should have bet the flop, and secondarily whether he
> should have bet for the reasons he did bet and whether the other guys were
> correct in their reasoning as to why he shouldn't have bet.
>
> It's a strategy question.
>
> Like most strategy questions, it really does matter whether you frame the
> question correctly.
>
> It's not what you do that matters -- it's what you're thinking that
> matters.
>
> Just because you aren't smart enough to realize I answered his strategy
> question doesn't mean I failed to do so.

The strategy question was triggered by the fact that his opponents
objected to his bet. He didn't ask for your strategy to make it more
likely to come in third. He didn't ask about whether he should have
been in the hand in the first place, which he shouldn't have. He asked
whether they were right to bitch about his play and whether his play,
once he reached that point, was reasonable. They didn't and it wasn't
all that unreasonable. When you play tournaments regularly, lecture me
about these situations. Your comment that he shouldn't be playing
Queens in this situation is all about over-adjusting to a tournament
situation. You are four-handed and you have Queens. Gawd.

--
Will in New Haven



   
Date: 17 Dec 2008 18:24:57
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 7:55 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:


> about these situations. Your comment that he shouldn't be playing
> Queens in this situation is all about over-adjusting to a tournament
> situation. You are four-handed and you have Queens. Gawd.
>

Let's see. You have one player who limps in a situation where any hand
worth playing is worth a raise so clearly he can't be fishing for a raise.

He got the raise he wasn't fishing for and you don't need to worry about
that at all.

Then another player comes in seemingly unconcerned in the least that the
original limper might be planning a back raise.

So, you've got queens, you've got the nuts.

Am I understanding you correctly?

i'll have to take notes.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 18:33:11
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 8:24 PM, garycarson wrote:

> Let's see. You have one player who limps in a situation where any hand
> worth playing is worth a raise so clearly he can't be fishing for a raise.
>
> He got the raise he wasn't fishing for and you don't need to worry about
> that at all.
>
> Then another player comes in seemingly unconcerned in the least that the
> original limper might be planning a back raise.

You know, for a world class author, your lack of reading comprehension is
amazing.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 12:41:21
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 9:28 AM, garycarson wrote:

> You should not have got involved in the first place.

Involved in what? The game? It is a game between friends. The hand with
Q-10o? THAT I agree with.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 11:06:09
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17, 1:34=A0pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu >
wrote:
> On Dec 17 2008 1:18 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
> > > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand =
like
> > > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably go=
ing
> > > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to =
get
> > > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
>
> > > edlo77
>
> > I've got to agree with this. =A0The preflop call was not good.
>
> And, he keeps asking the wrong questions and insisting that he, and only
> he, knows the right question.

Gary, you are obsessive. He asked _a_ question. He didn't ask us to
improve his play. He asked about the way his opponents acted and
whether it was justified or appropriate. It wasn't. Sure, he played
the hand badly but why do you care if he plays well or badly. If he
wanted strategy advice he could ask for it.

--
Will in New Haven





   
Date: 17 Dec 2008 13:45:27
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 2:06 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:

> On Dec 17, 1:34†pm, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu>
> wrote:
> > On Dec 17 2008 1:18 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
> >
> > > > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand
like
> > > > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably
going
> > > > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > > > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to
get
> > > > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
> >
> > > > edlo77
> >
> > > I've got to agree with this. †The preflop call was not good.
> >
> > And, he keeps asking the wrong questions and insisting that he, and only
> > he, knows the right question.
>
> Gary, you are obsessive. He asked _a_ question.

Yes, I know what he did.

> He didn't ask us to
> improve his play. He asked about the way his opponents acted and
> whether it was justified or appropriate. It wasn't. Sure, he played
> the hand badly but why do you care if he plays well or badly. If he
> wanted strategy advice he could ask for it.

He did ask for strategy advice.

He asked whether he should have bet the flop, and secondarily whether he
should have bet for the reasons he did bet and whether the other guys were
correct in their reasoning as to why he shouldn't have bet.

It's a strategy question.

Like most strategy questions, it really does matter whether you frame the
question correctly.

It's not what you do that matters -- it's what you're thinking that
matters.

Just because you aren't smart enough to realize I answered his strategy
question doesn't mean I failed to do so.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:51:46
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
Maybe if I was playing you that would be true. But I was asking about the
flop.

On Dec 17 2008 9:28 AM, garycarson wrote:

> You should not have got involved in the first place.
>
>
> On Dec 17 2008 8:43 AM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.
> >
> > I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
> > 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
> > played for in a final game at the end. We then play every week for a $20
> > buy in, and the weekly game pays the top two. Blinds start at 50/25 and
> > everyone gets 6000 starting stack. We have 12 players. Depending on
> > where you place in the weekly game, you get points. Points begin at 10
> > for 1st, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, down to zero. No shows get zero points for
> > that week. The points get added up over the ten weeks. Top 4 in points
> > get to play in the final game, the remaining players will play one more
> > game and the winner gets to sit in at the final. You get extra chips
> > added to your starting stack in the final game based on the points you
> > have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> > Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
> >
> > Last night, there were 7 players that showed up. Blinds got to 200/400
> > and one player was severely short stacked. She had about 850 left. I had
> > around 3000 and was on the BB with Q 10os, Billy had me out chipped by
> > about 600, and the SB was around his starting amount of 6000. It was
> > folded to Billy who was to the short stacks right. He limped, she moved
> > all in. It folds to the small blind who calls. 1650 in the pot, Iím
> > pretty sure Billy is just going to call, so I call the extra 450, and
> > Billy calls as well. Pot is 2550.
> >
> > Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are some
> > laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
> > wasnít smiling) I think one of them even mentioned it being checked down
> > since there was a player all in. This is, IMHO, out of line.
> >
> > Flop comes Q high with 2 clubs. I donít have a club. SB checks, I reach
> > for chips and the SB starts needling me about betting. Billy joins in
> > with some moans and groans. Apparently the consensus is I should check
> > even if I have something. I think my chances of having the all in person
> > beat with just the Q is good, I also think that my chances of having the
> > sb beat right now is good too. When Billy started grumbling, I figured he
> > must at least have a draw to the flush, but Iím probably ahead at the
> > moment. I decided to push the remaining of my stack, sb folds out of
> > turn, all-in looks disgusted, and Billy is frustrated. He takes a long
> > time to fold, complaining the whole time that he has the nut draw, blah
> > blah blah, and how this should be checked around when some one is all in
> > and Iím not playing right, etc.
> >
> > It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> > I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> > today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> > coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> > much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> > with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> > for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> > the WSOP?
> >
> > Mike

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 10:02:42
From: eldo77
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 9:51 AM, MMelia wrote:

> Maybe if I was playing you that would be true. But I was asking about the
> flop.
>
> On Dec 17 2008 9:28 AM, garycarson wrote:
>
> > You should not have got involved in the first place.
> >


Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.

edlo77

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 11:25:44
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 1:02 PM, eldo77 wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 9:51 AM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > Maybe if I was playing you that would be true. But I was asking about the
> > flop.
> >
> > On Dec 17 2008 9:28 AM, garycarson wrote:
> >
> > > You should not have got involved in the first place.
> > >
>
>
> Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
> QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
> to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
> broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
>
> edlo77

I understand what your and Gary are saying. I really do. I'll explain my
preflop, but I already know my cards sucked at that point, and I needed a
favorable flop.

The players are people that I play with every week. Billy limped. Billy
likes/loves to limp allot with a week suited ace. John the sb, would call
here with almost anything - 76s 10 9s, etc. If John (the SB) had a real
hand he definitely would have come over the top of the all in to get Billy
and my out of the way. If Bill had a real hand, he raises, not limps. He
always raises strong, limps weak. And I do mean always. If Dave (calling
station) had entered the pot, I don't play it. You can't shake him, he's
like a tick stuck on a dog. Its 450 more to me... which is just over 1
bet. Yes, I don't have the chips to be speculating, and if I didn't play
every week with these people I might not have - but holy crap, they are
giving me 7 to 1 to see a flop? What hand in holdem is a 7 to 1 dog
pre-flop? The all in player probably holds mid pair, small pair, 2 high
cards. It could have been anything really. She actually had 8's.

Right or wrong - I made the decision to play it pre-flop because I knew
Billy wouldn't be re-raising behind me and 7 to 1 is nice pot odds.

I miss the flop and someone bets? I simply fold and cuss at myself. Ace
on the flop and someone bets (I think Billy has it.) I can fold. Flush
draw... Billy or John the sb could have that, but I'm slightly ahead of
that with top pair. That is where my question lays, not if my preflop was
good or not. Allot of people already answered about my flop move though,
thanks to everyone!

I just thought I would explain the pre-flop play a little since a couple
people remarked on it. Perhaps all my pre-flop reasoning still makes my
calling a mistake pre-flop, I don't know. I'm not very good at poker and
I don't pretend to be. I know that it was a big pot and to see the flop
for only 450 was pretty good.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 13:47:22
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 2:25 PM, MMelia wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 1:02 PM, eldo77 wrote:
>
> > On Dec 17 2008 9:51 AM, MMelia wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe if I was playing you that would be true. But I was asking about
the
> > > flop.
> > >
> > > On Dec 17 2008 9:28 AM, garycarson wrote:
> > >
> > > > You should not have got involved in the first place.
> > > >
> >
> >
> > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
> > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
> > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
> > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
> >
> > edlo77
>
> I understand what your and Gary are saying. I really do. I'll explain my
> preflop, but I already know my cards sucked at that point, and I needed a
> favorable flop.

It's not about your cards, and it's not really even about you.

It's about the stacks and the liklihood that the two big stacks are going
to be underplaying their hands against an allin short stack.

____________________________________________________________________†
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Date: 17 Dec 2008 14:33:16
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 4:47 PM, garycarson wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 2:25 PM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > On Dec 17 2008 1:02 PM, eldo77 wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 17 2008 9:51 AM, MMelia wrote:
> > >
> > > > Maybe if I was playing you that would be true. But I was asking about
> the
> > > > flop.
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 17 2008 9:28 AM, garycarson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > You should not have got involved in the first place.
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
> > > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
> > > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
> > > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
> > >
> > > edlo77
> >
> > I understand what your and Gary are saying. I really do. I'll explain my
> > preflop, but I already know my cards sucked at that point, and I needed a
> > favorable flop.
>
> It's not about your cards, and it's not really even about you.
>
> It's about the stacks and the liklihood that the two big stacks are going
> to be underplaying their hands against an allin short stack.

I got it. Thanks.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 11:39:31
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 1:25 PM, MMelia wrote:

> What hand in holdem is a 7 to 1 dog pre-flop?

I'm sure you could invent some scenarios where you have a hand that's a
7:1 dog vs. the others, but this ain't one of them. The issue is that you
only have 3000 chips, and that after putting 400 in on the BB, calling
anything here is spewing chips.

If your stack was 8000 I would expect no one to have a problem with the
preflop call. I would hope that they are not hung up on the hole cards
and that's the only reason behind their posts.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 13:48:34
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 2:39 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 1:25 PM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > What hand in holdem is a 7 to 1 dog pre-flop?
>
> I'm sure you could invent some scenarios where you have a hand that's a
> 7:1 dog vs. the others, but this ain't one of them. The issue is that you
> only have 3000 chips, and that after putting 400 in on the BB, calling
> anything here is spewing chips.
>
> If your stack was 8000 I would expect no one to have a problem with the
> preflop call. I would hope that they are not hung up on the hole cards
> and that's the only reason behind their posts.
>

Morphy is right. Although it's not as clearcut, you probably shouldn't be
getting involved here even with QQ or such.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 16:39:26
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 3:48 PM, garycarson wrote:

> Morphy is right. Although it's not as clearcut, you probably shouldn't be
> getting involved here even with QQ or such.

What I really meant is that there's almost no range that should call here.
Instead it should be a push/fold situation.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 18:17:32
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 7:39 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 3:48 PM, garycarson wrote:
>
> > Morphy is right. Although it's not as clearcut, you probably shouldn't be
> > getting involved here even with QQ or such.
>
> What I really meant is that there's almost no range that should call here.
> Instead it should be a push/fold situation.
>

Well, that's just nonsense.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 18:22:23
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 8:17 PM, garycarson wrote:

> Well, that's just nonsense.

Ok then, enlighten me. What hand would you call with on the BB in the
OP's situation?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 11:59:44
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 2:39 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 1:25 PM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > What hand in holdem is a 7 to 1 dog pre-flop?
>
> I'm sure you could invent some scenarios where you have a hand that's a
> 7:1 dog vs. the others, but this ain't one of them. The issue is that you
> only have 3000 chips, and that after putting 400 in on the BB, calling
> anything here is spewing chips.
>
> If your stack was 8000 I would expect no one to have a problem with the
> preflop call. I would hope that they are not hung up on the hole cards
> and that's the only reason behind their posts.
>
> ---
> Morphy
> xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
> http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
> "SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

Ya, I get it. Thanks.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 10:18:56
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
> Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
> QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
> to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
> broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
>
> edlo77

I've got to agree with this. The preflop call was not good.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 10:34:04
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 1:18 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
> > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
> > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
> > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
> >
> > edlo77
>
> I've got to agree with this. The preflop call was not good.
>

And, he keeps asking the wrong questions and insisting that he, and only
he, knows the right question.

He should not have gotten involved from the gitgo and he should not have
gotten even more deeply involved on the flop.

It has nothing to do with the "bust the allin player" mindset of the other
players, although knowing that they have that mindset makes his play even
worse.

When two giants are stomping around the valley, either one of which might
squash you, then just stay off to the side and let them be.

But then again, I've always been partial to the "God loves me and he'll
make me lucky" school of thought.

______________________________________________________________________†
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Date: 17 Dec 2008 11:58:32
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 1:34 PM, garycarson wrote:

> On Dec 17 2008 1:18 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
> > > Why would you call 15% of your stack out of position with a dog hand like
> > > QTo before the flop? You've got one person in desperation probably going
> > > to get broke and you're covered by the other 2. As a matter of fact,
> > > although you got a good result THIS TIME, it's a good way for YOU to get
> > > broke by flopping some kind of marginal hand.
> > >
> > > edlo77
> >
> > I've got to agree with this. The preflop call was not good.
> >
>
> And, he keeps asking the wrong questions and insisting that he, and only
> he, knows the right question.
>
> He should not have gotten involved from the gitgo and he should not have
> gotten even more deeply involved on the flop.
>
> It has nothing to do with the "bust the allin player" mindset of the other
> players, although knowing that they have that mindset makes his play even
> worse.
>
> When two giants are stomping around the valley, either one of which might
> squash you, then just stay off to the side and let them be.
>
> But then again, I've always been partial to the "God loves me and he'll
> make me lucky" school of thought.

I didn't realize that - "he keeps asking the wrong questions and insisting
that he, and only
he, knows the right question." I only remember posting questions once,
about what I did on the flop and the behaviors that were exhibited. I
don't know why you say that I'm insisting the I and only I know the right
question. I really don't. I've re-read what I typed and am clueless
about where that comes from.

I have since posted about what I was doing in the pot pre-flop only
because it was commented on. I'm not looking for advice really, not that
you offered any.

Of course it would be nice, if you think I am asking the wrong questions -
to post the ones I should be asking instead of a 1 line response of "You
should not have got involved in the first place." I'm sure allot of
people would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

I know I suck Gary. You won't offend me.

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:19:38
From: Bob T.
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17, 5:43=A0am, "MMelia" <a4f6...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
>
> Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are som=
e
> laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
> wasn=92t smiling) =A0 I think one of them even mentioned it being checked=
down
> since there was a player all in. =A0This is, IMHO, out of line.

It's more than out of line, it's collusion and it's a form of
cheating. You should talk to the organizers of the game and have them
announce a clear policy against this sort of behavior.

- Bob T.


 
Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:15:59
From: charrison100
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17 2008 8:43 AM, MMelia wrote:

> I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation.
>
> I play every Tuesday at a home game. Every year, we do a tournament over
> 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
> played for in a final game at the end. We then play every week for a $20
> buy in, and the weekly game pays the top two. Blinds start at 50/25 and
> everyone gets 6000 starting stack. We have 12 players. Depending on
> where you place in the weekly game, you get points. Points begin at 10
> for 1st, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, down to zero. No shows get zero points for
> that week. The points get added up over the ten weeks. Top 4 in points
> get to play in the final game, the remaining players will play one more
> game and the winner gets to sit in at the final. You get extra chips
> added to your starting stack in the final game based on the points you
> have collected. The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
>
> Last night, there were 7 players that showed up. Blinds got to 200/400
> and one player was severely short stacked. She had about 850 left. I had
> around 3000 and was on the BB with Q 10os, Billy had me out chipped by
> about 600, and the SB was around his starting amount of 6000. It was
> folded to Billy who was to the short stacks right. He limped, she moved
> all in. It folds to the small blind who calls. 1650 in the pot, Iím
> pretty sure Billy is just going to call, so I call the extra 450, and
> Billy calls as well. Pot is 2550.
>
> Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are some
> laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
> wasnít smiling) I think one of them even mentioned it being checked down
> since there was a player all in. This is, IMHO, out of line.
>
> Flop comes Q high with 2 clubs. I donít have a club. SB checks, I reach
> for chips and the SB starts needling me about betting. Billy joins in
> with some moans and groans. Apparently the consensus is I should check
> even if I have something. I think my chances of having the all in person
> beat with just the Q is good, I also think that my chances of having the
> sb beat right now is good too. When Billy started grumbling, I figured he
> must at least have a draw to the flush, but Iím probably ahead at the
> moment. I decided to push the remaining of my stack, sb folds out of
> turn, all-in looks disgusted, and Billy is frustrated. He takes a long
> time to fold, complaining the whole time that he has the nut draw, blah
> blah blah, and how this should be checked around when some one is all in
> and Iím not playing right, etc.
>
> It got worse when the river was a club. :)
> I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> today. Maybe it was a bad move? On the flop my top pair is basically a
> coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> much done. If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> with only one card to come. Should I have checked the flop and waited
> for the turn? Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs of
> the WSOP?
>
> Mike

I play in a similar home game with similar comments. i would never say
this to them but FUCK THEM. I don;t care about 3 people ganging up to
knock one person out. the pot is 2550 and that is more then your stack. At
3000 and the blinds at 200/400 I am making a move on this pot. I don;t
want Billy who is in your same situation to be able to steal it nor do i
want the SB who had twice your stacks starting the hand to get even more
chips.

Your play was fine before the money bubble. If checking it down was to
move your payout up signifigantly then i may reconsider.

Chris

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Date: 17 Dec 2008 06:05:00
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17, 8:43=A0am, "MMelia" <a4f6...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> I do have a question, but first let me give some details to the situation=
.
>
> I play every Tuesday at a home game. =A0 Every year, we do a tournament o=
ver
> 10 weeks where everyone buys in for $60, which goes into a pot to be
> played for in a final game at the end. =A0We then play every week for a $=
20
> buy in, and the weekly game pays the top two. =A0Blinds start at 50/25 an=
d
> everyone gets 6000 starting stack. =A0We have 12 players. =A0Depending on
> where you place in the weekly game, you get points. =A0Points begin at 10
> for 1st, 9 for 2nd, 8 for 3rd, down to zero. =A0No shows get zero points =
for
> that week. =A0The points get added up over the ten weeks. =A0Top 4 in poi=
nts
> get to play in the final game, the remaining players will play one more
> game and the winner gets to sit in at the final. =A0You get extra chips
> added to your starting stack in the final game based on the points you
> have collected. =A0The winner of the final game gets a seat at Foxwoods
> Poker Classic for the $600 NLHE event.
>
> Last night, there were 7 players that showed up. =A0Blinds got to 200/400
> and one player was severely short stacked. =A0She had about 850 left. =A0=
I had
> around 3000 and was on the BB with Q 10os, Billy had me out chipped by
> about 600, and the SB was around his starting amount of 6000. =A0It was
> folded to Billy who was to the short stacks right. =A0He limped, she move=
d
> all in. =A0It folds to the small blind who calls. =A01650 in the pot, I=
=92m
> pretty sure Billy is just going to call, so I call the extra 450, and
> Billy calls as well. =A0Pot is 2550. =A0
>
> Billy and the SB start joking around about how its 3 vs. 1, there are som=
e
> laughs, chuckles, common rude bullshit. (Of course, the all-in player
> wasn=92t smiling) =A0 I think one of them even mentioned it being checked=
down
> since there was a player all in. =A0This is, IMHO, out of line.
>
> Flop comes Q high with 2 clubs. =A0I don=92t have a club. =A0SB checks, I=
reach
> for chips and the SB starts needling me about betting. =A0Billy joins in
> with some moans and groans. =A0Apparently the consensus is I should check
> even if I have something. =A0I think my chances of having the all in pers=
on
> beat with just the Q is good, I also think that my chances of having the
> sb beat right now is good too. =A0When Billy started grumbling, I figured=
he
> must at least have a draw to the flush, but I=92m probably ahead at the
> moment. =A0I decided to push the remaining of my stack, sb folds out of
> turn, all-in looks disgusted, and Billy is frustrated. =A0He takes a long
> time to fold, complaining the whole time that he has the nut draw, blah
> blah blah, and how this should be checked around when some one is all in
> and I=92m not playing right, etc. =A0
>
> It got worse when the river was a club. =A0:)
> I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> today. =A0Maybe it was a bad move? =A0On the flop my top pair is basicall=
y a
> coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> much done. =A0If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> with only one card to come. =A0 Should I have checked the flop and waited
> for the turn? =A0Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs =
of
> the WSOP? =A0

People misconstrue the old adage that you shouldn't bluff into a dry
side pot and think it means you shouldn't _bet_ into a dry side pot.
Your bet wasn't a bluff; it was a value bet, although a thin one. What
it comes down to is that the object of poker isn't to please your
opponents. Elimination of an opponent is a goal but it isn't the only
goal in this situation. Your decision to push was borderline but no
one else's business. Tell Billy to STFU.

--
Will in New Haven



 
Date: 17 Dec 2008 05:49:16
From: number6
Subject: Re: WARNING: This post contains Poker content.
On Dec 17, 8:43=A0am, "MMelia" <a4f6...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:

> I though about it a lot last night, and obviously it is still with me
> today. =A0Maybe it was a bad move? =A0On the flop my top pair is basicall=
y a
> coin flip against a flush draw, but if he calls and looses he is pretty
> much done. =A0If there is no club on the turn then I am a bigger favorite
> with only one card to come. =A0 Should I have checked the flop and waited
> for the turn? =A0Is Billy correct or has he just watched to many re-runs =
of
> the WSOP? =A0


There are times when checking down to enhance eliminating a player is
correct ... this is not one of them ... You can make more in the side
pot than the main pot ...
Now bluffing into a dry side pot otoh ... is a different story ...