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Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:35:23
From: Vic Vaselino
Subject: Tourney chop question
$70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with a
3K ante.
Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
about as follows:

$2020
$1205
$740
$515

We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
In hindsight
I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?

Vic

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Date: 02 Jan 2009 10:16:44
From: charrison100
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Dec 31 2008 2:35 PM, Vic Vaselino wrote:

> $70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with a
> 3K ante.
> Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
> about as follows:
>
> $2020
> $1205
> $740
> $515
>
> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> In hindsight
> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?
>
> Vic

There are mathmatical ways to decide this. That being said were you happy
with the chop? Did you get the amount you wanted?

If I chop and I get what i want then i am happy. Doesn't matter to me if I
could have squeezed another 1% out of the deal.

Chris

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Date: 01 Jan 2009 03:21:58
From: Patti Beadles
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
In article <r4us26xjl3.ln2@recgroups.com >,
Vic Vaselino <ppoliti@stny.rr.com > wrote:

>Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
>about as follows:
>
>$2020, $1205, $740, $515,

>We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.

According to ICM, the chop should be about 1250/1250/1250/720
(and I'm rounding a bit.) My intuition said about $750.

Yeah, you were generous.

-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 15:12:05
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Jan 1, 8:35=A0am, "Vic Vaselino" <ppol...@stny.rr.com > wrote:
> Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
> about as follows:
>
> $2020
> $1205
> $740
> $515
>
> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> In hindsight
> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?

Try looking at it with the $515 taken off each payout (since
everybody is guaranteed at least that much).

Remaining prize pool is $2420
The short gets $365 and the rest get $685.

I think it is a little on the high side; more in line with
tournament equities would be $750 for you and $170
for the short stack (i.e. overall chop of
about $1250 and $700 for the short)



  
Date: 31 Dec 2008 15:14:22
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Jan 1, 12:12=A0pm, Old Wolf <oldw...@inspire.net.nz > wrote:
> On Jan 1, 8:35=A0am, "Vic Vaselino" <ppol...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200=
.
>
> I think it is a little on the high side; =A0more in line with
> tournament equities would be $750 for you and $170
> for the short stack (i.e. overall chop of
> about $1250 and $700 for the short)

Having said that, the short stack might well feel that
he has good chances of shoving ATC and pick up
some blinds or even suck out, so he might not accept
this chop unless you do bump up his share. I guess it
is more a matter of psychology to see what you can
foist on him :)



   
Date: 31 Dec 2008 15:41:30
From: Vic Vaselino
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Dec 31 2008 6:14 PM, Old Wolf wrote:

> On Jan 1, 12:12 pm, Old Wolf <oldw...@inspire.net.nz> wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 8:35 am, "Vic Vaselino" <ppol...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > > We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200..
> >
> > I think it is a little on the high side;  more in line with
> > tournament equities would be $750 for you and $170
> > for the short stack (i.e. overall chop of
> > about $1250 and $700 for the short)
>
> Having said that, the short stack might well feel that
> he has good chances of shoving ATC and pick up
> some blinds or even suck out, so he might not accept
> this chop unless you do bump up his share. I guess it
> is more a matter of psychology to see what you can
> foist on him :)


We actually did offer him slightly less than he ended up with ( $60 less I
think ).
I guess since we were all happy with the chop at the time, it was fair.

Thanks for the input.

Vic

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 12:16:39
From: Lute
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
There is only one way to do this.
You offer the 45K stack $300.
This works if you stuff your mouth with cotton, and then say in your
most convincing impression of Vito Corleone, "HHHey, thiis iis aan
offffer you can't refuuuse. Pleease, accept this generous offer, and
liive."

=3D*=3D*=3D

On Dec 31, 2:35=A0pm, "Vic Vaselino" <ppol...@stny.rr.com > wrote:
> $70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with =
a
> 3K ante.
> Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
> about as follows:
>
> $2020
> $1205
> $740
> $515
>
> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> In hindsight
> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?
>
> Vic
>
> ______________________________________________________________________=A0
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:45:02
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Dec 31 2008 1:35 PM, Vic Vaselino wrote:

> $70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with a
> 3K ante.
> Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
> about as follows:
>
> $2020
> $1205
> $740
> $515
>
> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> In hindsight
> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?

Uhh, wow. Why not wait until the 3BB stack busts then chop? If you have
to chop 4 handed I wouldn't give him more than $600.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 01 Jan 2009 23:10:27
From: Joe Long
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> On Dec 31 2008 1:35 PM, Vic Vaselino wrote:
>
>> $70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with a
>> 3K ante.
>> Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
>> about as follows:
>>
>> $2020
>> $1205
>> $740
>> $515
>>
>> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
>> In hindsight
>> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?

That was a bit generous, IMO.

> Uhh, wow. Why not wait until the 3BB stack busts then chop? If you have
> to chop 4 handed I wouldn't give him more than $600.

And if I'm the one with the short stack there's no way I agree to take
$600. I already have a lock on $515 with a shot at $2K. How much I
would agree to would depend on some other factors.


--
Joe Long aka ChipRider
Somewhere on the Range


  
Date: 31 Dec 2008 17:47:58
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Dec 31 2008 12:45 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 31 2008 1:35 PM, Vic Vaselino wrote:
>
> > $70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with a
> > 3K ante.
> > Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
> > about as follows:
> >
> > $2020
> > $1205
> > $740
> > $515
> >
> > We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> > In hindsight
> > I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?
>
> Uhh, wow. Why not wait until the 3BB stack busts then chop? If you have
> to chop 4 handed I wouldn't give him more than $600.
>
> ---
> Morphy


Iswear sometimes it is like you have no clue at all.
Do you really think he would take yur offer?

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 17:51:47
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
On Dec 31 2008 7:47 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:

> Iswear sometimes it is like you have no clue at all.
> Do you really think he would take yur offer?

Probably not, so he busts in the next 3 hands and a real chop can happen.
That is, unless he folds AA preflop in which case we might as well just
all accept 4th place money and give him the rest because his poker skills
are obviously superior to ours.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 01 Jan 2009 23:10:35
From: Joe Long
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
XaQ Morphy wrote:
> On Dec 31 2008 7:47 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:
>
>> Iswear sometimes it is like you have no clue at all.
>> Do you really think he would take yur offer?
>
> Probably not, so he busts in the next 3 hands and a real chop can happen.
> That is, unless he folds AA preflop in which case we might as well just
> all accept 4th place money and give him the rest because his poker skills
> are obviously superior to ours.

Or he doubles up in the next three hands, and now you have to pay him
more. Or he goes on to win the tournament.

BTW, those are some of the factors that a simple formula can't account
for. The player skills for one (even though luck is huge at this point,
it isn't the whole story). The willingness of the short stack to gamble
to move up, vs. his desire to reduce his variance, for another.

Sure, offer the guy $600 if you think he's an idiot and might actually
take it. If he looks at you like you're the idiot and says "No f'n
way," then you can ask him for a serious offer.


--
Joe Long aka ChipRider
Somewhere on the Range


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:37:43
From: johnny_t
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
Vic Vaselino wrote:
> $70 buy in at Turning Stone, four of us are left. Blinds are 16K-8K with a
> 3K ante.
> Three of us have stacks of 190-200K, short stack has 45K. The payouts are
> about as follows:
>
> $2020
> $1205
> $740
> $515
>
> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> In hindsight
> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?
>
> Vic
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
>
>

Well you have to give him something over 515 or there is no point in him
chopping. And if he is good/lucky enough to not be taken out, you may
have to give him MORE than 880 at that chop. And if he doesn't go out
4th, then one of the 1200 players lost 685 (1200-515) bucks by not chopping.

If he IS out at 4th stacts are still even, then the chop is only going
to be 1300. So the big players lose out 100 dollars equity to save 700
bucks?

First, a chop is whatever the players want. There is so much variance
at this stage, the whole "math" thing is dwarfed by it.

Yeah, maybe you gave him a little too much. Chalk it up to karma, and
maybe the next time, you get 50 bucks too much in 4th.

(I find that whenever someone gets a little greedy in these things, and
I am fourth, a very good part of the time, I end up making more than
them in the end. But Karma is like that).


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:42:30
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Tourney chop question
> We agree to a chop giving the short stack $880 and the rest of us $1200.
> In hindsight
> I think we gave the short stack too much. Comments?
>
> Vic

I doubt you get the small stack to settle for much less. He is guaranteed
515.00 you try to be cheap and say hey we'll give you 600.00 or some shit
he might just decide to start shoving his stack trying to double up.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

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