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Date: 07 Dec 2008 00:20:38
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: The Way it Was-Gardena----Russ G
From: GCA (new...@aol.com)
Subject: the Way it Was part 1 by GCA
View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2001-11-26 00:06:51 PST


I arrived in Gardena, Ca. the former Poker Capitol of the World in
1968. By 1969 I was already involved with all the cheats in the city.
Card mechanics were frowned upon at this time. Yet they were
permitted
at certain times in the late evenings. Games were property in those
days. They were a possession. You just didn't claim a game as your
own. It couldn't be done this way. You had to pay your dues. Most
card
mechanics tried Gardena out. Most were caught very quickly. Scammers
ruled.


By paying your dues, this meant you had to know what was going on.
You
had to earn your way in. You had to show you were more of an asset
than a hindrance. You had to of paid the floormen generous daily
tokes
for permission to keep any heat off yourself or the game your played
in. You had to be accepted by the other cheats. You had to be able to
win the money honestly at the level you were at. This took some time.
Most could never get there at the highest level.


The cheats played in shifts at this time. You had your morning,
afternoon and evening crews. The older cheats had the most power and
usually played in the morning and the afternoon. This way they didn't
have to wait. They started the games. The card rooms opened at 9am
and
a crew would be in a game by 10am. Seats were reserved. Most games of
low-ball were played in this manner. The high draw games were left
alone for the most part. There wasn't enough money in them for the
cheats to bother with. They were also slower in action and the "lives
ones" preferred a lot of raising.


The older cheats were very friendly with the management. Most had
played in the casino's for decades. Everyone gets promoted in life
after doing business or working at the same place for years. The
managers were ex-floormen for the most part and the cheats had grown
up by giving them money for years. They had worked hand and hand for
years. The more disciplined cheats were already rich and would just
come in to spend a few hours making a little money.


You couldn't play on the morning shift in the big games. This were
already taken through many years of bribery with the same people. A
new cheat would be told to wait for them to leave. They were built in
from the years before. They had the management to the highest levels
on their side. If you were a cheat, you could not play while the
older
ones were playing [cheating]. You would be barred.


During this period, the main way they cheated in the big games were
through "good play and saving bets". By saving bets, I mean the
cheats
would keep a running score of how they were doing with the other
cheats. They would keep small stacks of chips on the side to keep
score. Always keeping the total as low as possible when ever a
situation was given. An example would be if player A opened the pot
and player B was the big blind. If all the action had passed, they
would be in a situation by themselves. This allowed for the cheat
that
owed the other cheat to simply raise the pot a few times and then
even
the tally of the score. Naturally then would throw their hands away
on
the river. This was an easy way to get yourself even with a person
that you owed 10 bets to.


Ante and small blinds didn't count. Just bets were counted. This was
also a tell that most of the old timers had. They all had little
stacks of chips on a side. You could watch them go up or down
depending on who won the pot. Many mistakes were made and many
arguments occurred after the games about who was owed. However, this
was the basic way of scamming back then.


Besides bet and raising a person out of a pot, another edge was
arrived when someone picked up a "pat six" or better in low-ball.
Some
of the players had agreements for pat 7-5's or better. When a cheat
signaled the others that he had a "pat" hand, one of them would help
him to "build a pot". The other cheat would put in as many raises as
he thought was reasonable with the people in the middle. Some people
would go for more raises without screaming than others. The cheat
with
the "pat hand" would guarantee the other cheat all his money back.
Whether the other cheat won or lost. Sometimes the hands lost and the
cheats would lose in the games. Sometimes the cheats would take
advantage of a no-loss situation and draw 2 cards. If they won the
pot
the money was theirs. Though they would owe the "pat 6" his money
back. One cheat might win all the money, while the others lost.This
made way for a new style of cheating to enter soon. There was a lot
of
hostility. COMMUNITY BANKROLL was to enter soon.


The old way was basically, like having four individual cheating
groups
in the game. Sometimes only three cheats were in the games. The
reason
being that some of them couldn't keep score of the "bet saving". Some
just made mistakes on purpose. Some cheats refused to play with other
cheats and would wait for that cheat to leave. They would weave in
and
out. This was the reason that everyone knew each other. Never more
than four cheats at a table. All deals were made away from the
tables.


Most of the deals were constant. Whenever the cheats played, they
would be on [save bets]. This meant that the bet-raising when
stealing
a pot was split. This meant they always saved bets in the games when
they played with each other. There was no [off and on]. Once you made
an agreement, you were on. Otherwise you didn't play while that party
was in the game. First come first served after the morning and
afternoon seniority.


All cheats knew who was who. Never more than four in the game at the
same time in the late 60's and early 70's. Sometimes no more than
three. Management preferred this while the owners or the general
managers were in the casino's. You had to wait your turn for the big
game. Obviously, some had more influence than others. There were also
6 card rooms in Gardena at this time. So there were many games.
Players would get heat on themselves and would go to another card
room
for a month. The major players were never barred, though they may get
a months vacation for crudeness once in a while. Crudeness was when
they would bet-raise on the river several times and no one would show
a hand down. Crudeness was when they made things appear so badly that
even the dumb players thought something was wrong.


Thus some of the cheats would be forced to take a months vacation in
another card room. Holding out cards and dealing off the bottom was
frowned upon. Many owners would be in the card rooms during the day
and they didn't want this going on. It was up to the floormen to
know.
The floormen always knew. The only time that this was permitted to
any
kind of degree was after the bars closed at 2am. By this time only
the
professionals and the "live ones and drunks" were usually left. Thus
more tolerance was given in situations like this. All the graveyard
shifts were crooked in all casinos.


Everyone had their game to play in. Everyone protected their game.
This meant they didn't want other cheats coming into the games. This
was the reason for paying the floormen. They were the conduit for the
protection you needed. From them the money would go to other places
so
as to make everyone involved happy.


The big games were always the most coveted. The problem was getting
into the game. It was easy to get into the game if you were playing
honestly. But it was hard to do anything but lose. They would be
cheating you. You just had to wait until the right time appeared. And
the time would always appear.


Between 1968 and 1970 or 1971, I played in the big games in a limited
capacity. I had to settle for the second largest games. Too many
cheats had seniority over me. I played in the big games usually late
at night. I also played with a greater edge than others. I played the
same money with several people. Though I saved bets with most of the
people, the people I played the same money with did not. My guys knew
the score. The old cheaters did not. We were very young and didn't
get
the respect that was due to us from the older cheaters.


I left for a few years after getting divorced in 1970. At this time I
received my road name of "Seattle Russ". I ran games in Seattle and
played up and down the coast. When Montana opened I also went there.
However I was back in LA by 1976 and was playing at the Horseshoe
card
room now.


The games were now larger and better than ever. The Horseshoe at this
time had the best reputation of any casino in town and the players
were leaving the other casinos to play in the most honest casino in
town at this time. Things had changed to a degree. Some of the old
cheats had retired and some of the younger floormen had been
promoted.
The high draw section was honest to as high a degree as possible. It
also had some big games as open blind raise blind had entered the
picture.


Open blind, raise blind made for more skillful action games in both
lowball and highball. In a game of $100-$200, the blinds would be
$50-$100-$200 with the opening bet being $300. After the draw the bet
was $200. This made the draw games very good and the lowball games
even better for the cheaters. Now you could put 10 or 20 bets into a
pot without a problem. This was normal in the high lowball games. We
wanted to play as high as we could. However, due to regulations and
people that couldn't play that big, we settled for what we could.


In fact to get action, people would throw a card away to show they
were drawing. The joker was in the game and this made for people to
gamble more and for people to overplay pat 9's. The people that would
discard before the action was complete, usually were drawing to a
wheel with a joker. It took a long time for this practice to be
stopped. This is what made it so easy to put this many bets into a
pot. It also enabled many other things to happen.


In the next segment I will get into "how" the cheating was done. It
will be very detailed in how we would scam with verbal and hand
signals. It will show how there was no way to combat this. The next
installment shall be coming very soon.


Russ Georgiev

www.pokermafia.com
www.pokerunchecked.com
www.russgeorgiev.com




 
Date: 07 Dec 2008 19:25:13
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Way it Was-Gardena----Russ G
"When I'm dead and gone, they'll be no one left to carry on, carry
on".






On Dec 7, 12:07=EF=BF=BDpm, "hanks" <acdf...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Dec 7 2008 12:20 AM, RussGeorg...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > From: GCA (new...@aol.com)
> > Subject: the Way it Was part 1 by GCA
> > View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
> > Original Format
> > Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
> > Date: 2001-11-26 00:06:51 PST
>
> > I arrived in Gardena, Ca. the former Poker Capitol of the World in
> > 1968. By 1969 I was already involved with all the cheats in the city.
> > Card mechanics were frowned upon at this time. Yet they were
> > permitted
> > at certain times in the late evenings. Games were property in those
> > days. They were a possession. You just didn't claim a game as your
> > own. It couldn't be done this way. You had to pay your dues. Most
> > card
> > mechanics tried Gardena out. Most were caught very quickly. Scammers
> > ruled.
>
> > By paying your dues, this meant you had to know what was going on.
> > You
> > had to earn your way in. You had to show you were more of an asset
> > than a hindrance. You had to of paid the floormen generous daily
> > tokes
> > for permission to keep any heat off yourself or the game your played
> > in. You had to be accepted by the other cheats. You had to be able to
> > win the money honestly at the level you were at. This took some time.
> > Most could never get there at the highest level.
>
> > The cheats played in shifts at this time. You had your morning,
> > afternoon and evening crews. The older cheats had the most power and
> > usually played in the morning and the afternoon. This way they didn't
> > have to wait. They started the games. The card rooms opened at 9am
> > and
> > a crew would be in a game by 10am. Seats were reserved. Most games of
> > low-ball were played in this manner. The high draw games were left
> > alone for the most part. There wasn't enough money in them for the
> > cheats to bother with. They were also slower in action and the "lives
> > ones" preferred a lot of raising.
>
> > The older cheats were very friendly with the management. Most had
> > played in the casino's for decades. Everyone gets promoted in life
> > after doing business or working at the same place for years. The
> > managers were ex-floormen for the most part and the cheats had grown
> > up by giving them money for years. They had worked hand and hand for
> > years. The more disciplined cheats were already rich and would just
> > come in to spend a few hours making a little money.
>
> > You couldn't play on the morning shift in the big games. This were
> > already taken through many years of bribery with the same people. A
> > new cheat would be told to wait for them to leave. They were built in
> > from the years before. They had the management to the highest levels
> > on their side. If you were a cheat, you could not play while the
> > older
> > ones were playing [cheating]. You would be barred.
>
> > During this period, the main way they cheated in the big games were
> > through "good play and saving bets". By saving bets, I mean the
> > cheats
> > would keep a running score of how they were doing with the other
> > cheats. They would keep small stacks of chips on the side to keep
> > score. Always keeping the total as low as possible when ever a
> > situation was given. An example would be if player A opened the pot
> > and player B was the big blind. If all the action had passed, they
> > would be in a situation by themselves. This allowed for the cheat
> > that
> > owed the other cheat to simply raise the pot a few times and then
> > even
> > the tally of the score. Naturally then would throw their hands away
> > on
> > the river. This was an easy way to get yourself even with a person
> > that you owed 10 bets to.
>
> > Ante and small blinds didn't count. Just bets were counted. This was
> > also a tell that most of the old timers had. They all had little
> > stacks of chips on a side. You could watch them go up or down
> > depending on who won the pot. Many mistakes were made and many
> > arguments occurred after the games about who was owed. However, this
> > was the basic way of scamming back then.
>
> > Besides bet and raising a person out of a pot, another edge was
> > arrived when someone picked up a "pat six" or better in low-ball.
> > Some
> > of the players had agreements for pat 7-5's or better. When a cheat
> > signaled the others that he had a "pat" hand, one of them would help
> > him to "build a pot". The other cheat would put in as many raises as
> > he thought was reasonable with the people in the middle. Some people
> > would go for more raises without screaming than others. The cheat
> > with
> > the "pat hand" would guarantee the other cheat all his money back.
> > Whether the other cheat won or lost. Sometimes the hands lost and the
> > cheats would lose in the games. Sometimes the cheats would take
> > advantage of a no-loss situation and draw 2 cards. If they won the
> > pot
> > the money was theirs. Though they would owe the "pat 6" his money
> > back. One cheat might win all the money, while the others lost.This
> > made way for a new style of cheating to enter soon. There was a lot
> > of
> > hostility. COMMUNITY BANKROLL was to enter soon.
>
> > The old way was basically, like having four individual cheating
> > groups
> > in the game. Sometimes only three cheats were in the games. The
> > reason
> > being that some of them couldn't keep score of the "bet saving". Some
> > just made mistakes on purpose. Some cheats refused to play with other
> > cheats and would wait for that cheat to leave. They would weave in
> > and
> > out. This was the reason that everyone knew each other. Never more
> > than four cheats at a table. All deals were made away from the
> > tables.
>
> > Most of the deals were constant. Whenever the cheats played, they
> > would be on [save bets]. This meant that the bet-raising when
> > stealing
> > a pot was split. This meant they always saved bets in the games when
> > they played with each other. There was no [off and on]. Once you made
> > an agreement, you were on. Otherwise you didn't play while that party
> > was in the game. First come first served after the morning and
> > afternoon seniority.
>
> > All cheats knew who was who. Never more than four in the game at the
> > same time in the late 60's and early 70's. Sometimes no more than
> > three. Management preferred this while the owners or the general
> > managers were in the casino's. You had to wait your turn for the big
> > game. Obviously, some had more influence than others. There were also
> > 6 card rooms in Gardena at this time. So there were many games.
> > Players would get heat on themselves and would go to another card
> > room
> > for a month. The major players were never barred, though they may get
> > a months vacation for crudeness once in a while. Crudeness was when
> > they would bet-raise on the river several times and no one would show
> > a hand down. Crudeness was when they made things appear so badly that
> > even the dumb players thought something was wrong.
>
> > Thus some of the cheats would be forced to take a months vacation in
> > another card room. Holding out cards and dealing off the bottom was
> > frowned upon. Many owners would be in the card rooms during the day
> > and they didn't want this going on. It was up to the floormen to
> > know.
> > The floormen always knew. The only time that this was permitted to
> > any
> > kind of degree was after the bars closed at 2am. By this time only
> > the
> > professionals and the "live ones and drunks" were usually left. Thus
> > more tolerance was given in situations like this. All the graveyard
> > shifts were crooked in all casinos.
>
> > Everyone had their game to play in. Everyone protected their game.
> > This meant they didn't want other cheats coming into the games. This
> > was the reason for paying the floormen. They were the conduit for the
> > protection you needed. From them the money would go to other places
> > so
> > as to make everyone involved happy.
>
> > The big games were always the most coveted. The problem was getting
> > into the game. It was easy to get into the game if you were playing
> > honestly. But it was hard to do anything but lose. They would be
> > cheating you. You just had to wait until the right time appeared. And
> > the time would always appear.
>
> > Between 1968 and 1970 or 1971, I played in the big games in a limited
> > capacity. I had to settle for the second largest games. Too many
> > cheats had seniority over me. I played in the big games usually late
> > at night. I also played with a greater edge than others. I played the
> > same money with several people. Though I saved bets with most of the
> > people, the people I played the same money with did not. My guys knew
> > the score. The old cheaters did not. We were very young and didn't
> > get
> > the respect that was due to us from the older cheaters.
>
> > I left for a few years after getting divorced in 1970. At this time I
> > received my road name of "Seattle Russ". I ran games in Seattle and
> > played up and down the coast. When Montana opened I also went there.
> > However I was back in LA by 1976 and was playing at the Horseshoe
> > card
> > room now.
>
> > The games were now larger and better than ever. The Horseshoe at this
> > time had the best reputation of any casino in town and the players
> > were leaving the other casinos to play in the most honest casino in
> > town at this time. Things had changed to a degree. Some of the old
> > cheats had retired and some of the younger floormen had been
> > promoted.
> > The high draw section was honest to as high a degree as possible. It
> > also had some big games as open blind raise blind had entered the
> > picture.
>
> > Open blind, raise blind made for more skillful action games in both
> > lowball and highball. In a game of $100-$200, the blinds would be
> > $50-$100-$200 with the opening bet being $300. After the draw the bet
> > was $200. This made the draw games very good and the lowball games
> > even better for the cheaters. Now you could put 10 or 20 bets into a
> > pot without a problem. This was normal in the high lowball games. We
> > wanted to play as high as we could. However, due to regulations and
> > people that couldn't play that big, we settled for what we could.
>
> > In fact to get action, people would throw a card away to show they
> > were drawing. The joker was in the game and this made for people to
> > gamble more and for people to overplay pat 9's. The people that would
> > discard before the action was complete, usually were drawing to a
> > wheel with a joker. It took a long time for this practice to be
> > stopped. This is what made it so easy to put this many bets into a
> > pot. It also enabled many other things to happen.
>
> > In the next segment I will get into "how" the cheating was done. It
> > will be very detailed in how we would scam with verbal and hand
> > signals. It will show how there was no way to combat this. The next
> > installment shall be coming very soon.
>
> > Russ Georgiev
>
> >www.pokermafia.com
> >www.pokerunchecked.com
> >www.russgeorgiev.com
>
> Russ,
> Please stop beating a dead horse. GVU is dead,Skinny Lee is dead,Marty is
> dead,
> the shoe,the eldo,the Gardena club,the Monterey and the Rainbow no longer
> exist (the buildings aren't even there). Get over it!!!Danny Valiant is
> dead,the Russian is dead Rick Fess is dead.
> Why do you insist upon reminicing about a day gone by. PLEASE STOP!!!
>
> hanks
>
> ________________________________________________________________________=
=EF=BF=BD
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders :http://www.recgroups.com



  
Date: 07 Dec 2008 19:50:05
From: hanks
Subject: Re: The Way it Was-Gardena----Russ G
On Dec 7 2008 7:25 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> "When I'm dead and gone, they'll be no one left to carry on, carry
> on".
>
> I WILL!!!LOL
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 7, 12:07�pm, "hanks" <acdf...@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> > On Dec 7 2008 12:20 AM, RussGeorg...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > From: GCA (new...@aol.com)
> > > Subject: the Way it Was part 1 by GCA
> > > View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
> > > Original Format
> > > Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
> > > Date: 2001-11-26 00:06:51 PST
> >
> > > I arrived in Gardena, Ca. the former Poker Capitol of the World in
> > > 1968. By 1969 I was already involved with all the cheats in the city.
> > > Card mechanics were frowned upon at this time. Yet they were
> > > permitted
> > > at certain times in the late evenings. Games were property in those
> > > days. They were a possession. You just didn't claim a game as your
> > > own. It couldn't be done this way. You had to pay your dues. Most
> > > card
> > > mechanics tried Gardena out. Most were caught very quickly. Scammers
> > > ruled.
> >
> > > By paying your dues, this meant you had to know what was going on.
> > > You
> > > had to earn your way in. You had to show you were more of an asset
> > > than a hindrance. You had to of paid the floormen generous daily
> > > tokes
> > > for permission to keep any heat off yourself or the game your played
> > > in. You had to be accepted by the other cheats. You had to be able to
> > > win the money honestly at the level you were at. This took some time.
> > > Most could never get there at the highest level.
> >
> > > The cheats played in shifts at this time. You had your morning,
> > > afternoon and evening crews. The older cheats had the most power and
> > > usually played in the morning and the afternoon. This way they didn't
> > > have to wait. They started the games. The card rooms opened at 9am
> > > and
> > > a crew would be in a game by 10am. Seats were reserved. Most games of
> > > low-ball were played in this manner. The high draw games were left
> > > alone for the most part. There wasn't enough money in them for the
> > > cheats to bother with. They were also slower in action and the "lives
> > > ones" preferred a lot of raising.
> >
> > > The older cheats were very friendly with the management. Most had
> > > played in the casino's for decades. Everyone gets promoted in life
> > > after doing business or working at the same place for years. The
> > > managers were ex-floormen for the most part and the cheats had grown
> > > up by giving them money for years. They had worked hand and hand for
> > > years. The more disciplined cheats were already rich and would just
> > > come in to spend a few hours making a little money.
> >
> > > You couldn't play on the morning shift in the big games. This were
> > > already taken through many years of bribery with the same people. A
> > > new cheat would be told to wait for them to leave. They were built in
> > > from the years before. They had the management to the highest levels
> > > on their side. If you were a cheat, you could not play while the
> > > older
> > > ones were playing [cheating]. You would be barred.
> >
> > > During this period, the main way they cheated in the big games were
> > > through "good play and saving bets". By saving bets, I mean the
> > > cheats
> > > would keep a running score of how they were doing with the other
> > > cheats. They would keep small stacks of chips on the side to keep
> > > score. Always keeping the total as low as possible when ever a
> > > situation was given. An example would be if player A opened the pot
> > > and player B was the big blind. If all the action had passed, they
> > > would be in a situation by themselves. This allowed for the cheat
> > > that
> > > owed the other cheat to simply raise the pot a few times and then
> > > even
> > > the tally of the score. Naturally then would throw their hands away
> > > on
> > > the river. This was an easy way to get yourself even with a person
> > > that you owed 10 bets to.
> >
> > > Ante and small blinds didn't count. Just bets were counted. This was
> > > also a tell that most of the old timers had. They all had little
> > > stacks of chips on a side. You could watch them go up or down
> > > depending on who won the pot. Many mistakes were made and many
> > > arguments occurred after the games about who was owed. However, this
> > > was the basic way of scamming back then.
> >
> > > Besides bet and raising a person out of a pot, another edge was
> > > arrived when someone picked up a "pat six" or better in low-ball.
> > > Some
> > > of the players had agreements for pat 7-5's or better. When a cheat
> > > signaled the others that he had a "pat" hand, one of them would help
> > > him to "build a pot". The other cheat would put in as many raises as
> > > he thought was reasonable with the people in the middle. Some people
> > > would go for more raises without screaming than others. The cheat
> > > with
> > > the "pat hand" would guarantee the other cheat all his money back.
> > > Whether the other cheat won or lost. Sometimes the hands lost and the
> > > cheats would lose in the games. Sometimes the cheats would take
> > > advantage of a no-loss situation and draw 2 cards. If they won the
> > > pot
> > > the money was theirs. Though they would owe the "pat 6" his money
> > > back. One cheat might win all the money, while the others lost.This
> > > made way for a new style of cheating to enter soon. There was a lot
> > > of
> > > hostility. COMMUNITY BANKROLL was to enter soon.
> >
> > > The old way was basically, like having four individual cheating
> > > groups
> > > in the game. Sometimes only three cheats were in the games. The
> > > reason
> > > being that some of them couldn't keep score of the "bet saving". Some
> > > just made mistakes on purpose. Some cheats refused to play with other
> > > cheats and would wait for that cheat to leave. They would weave in
> > > and
> > > out. This was the reason that everyone knew each other. Never more
> > > than four cheats at a table. All deals were made away from the
> > > tables.
> >
> > > Most of the deals were constant. Whenever the cheats played, they
> > > would be on [save bets]. This meant that the bet-raising when
> > > stealing
> > > a pot was split. This meant they always saved bets in the games when
> > > they played with each other. There was no [off and on]. Once you made
> > > an agreement, you were on. Otherwise you didn't play while that party
> > > was in the game. First come first served after the morning and
> > > afternoon seniority.
> >
> > > All cheats knew who was who. Never more than four in the game at the
> > > same time in the late 60's and early 70's. Sometimes no more than
> > > three. Management preferred this while the owners or the general
> > > managers were in the casino's. You had to wait your turn for the big
> > > game. Obviously, some had more influence than others. There were also
> > > 6 card rooms in Gardena at this time. So there were many games.
> > > Players would get heat on themselves and would go to another card
> > > room
> > > for a month. The major players were never barred, though they may get
> > > a months vacation for crudeness once in a while. Crudeness was when
> > > they would bet-raise on the river several times and no one would show
> > > a hand down. Crudeness was when they made things appear so badly that
> > > even the dumb players thought something was wrong.
> >
> > > Thus some of the cheats would be forced to take a months vacation in
> > > another card room. Holding out cards and dealing off the bottom was
> > > frowned upon. Many owners would be in the card rooms during the day
> > > and they didn't want this going on. It was up to the floormen to
> > > know.
> > > The floormen always knew. The only time that this was permitted to
> > > any
> > > kind of degree was after the bars closed at 2am. By this time only
> > > the
> > > professionals and the "live ones and drunks" were usually left. Thus
> > > more tolerance was given in situations like this. All the graveyard
> > > shifts were crooked in all casinos.
> >
> > > Everyone had their game to play in. Everyone protected their game.
> > > This meant they didn't want other cheats coming into the games. This
> > > was the reason for paying the floormen. They were the conduit for the
> > > protection you needed. From them the money would go to other places
> > > so
> > > as to make everyone involved happy.
> >
> > > The big games were always the most coveted. The problem was getting
> > > into the game. It was easy to get into the game if you were playing
> > > honestly. But it was hard to do anything but lose. They would be
> > > cheating you. You just had to wait until the right time appeared. And
> > > the time would always appear.
> >
> > > Between 1968 and 1970 or 1971, I played in the big games in a limited
> > > capacity. I had to settle for the second largest games. Too many
> > > cheats had seniority over me. I played in the big games usually late
> > > at night. I also played with a greater edge than others. I played the
> > > same money with several people. Though I saved bets with most of the
> > > people, the people I played the same money with did not. My guys knew
> > > the score. The old cheaters did not. We were very young and didn't
> > > get
> > > the respect that was due to us from the older cheaters.
> >
> > > I left for a few years after getting divorced in 1970. At this time I
> > > received my road name of "Seattle Russ". I ran games in Seattle and
> > > played up and down the coast. When Montana opened I also went there.
> > > However I was back in LA by 1976 and was playing at the Horseshoe
> > > card
> > > room now.
> >
> > > The games were now larger and better than ever. The Horseshoe at this
> > > time had the best reputation of any casino in town and the players
> > > were leaving the other casinos to play in the most honest casino in
> > > town at this time. Things had changed to a degree. Some of the old
> > > cheats had retired and some of the younger floormen had been
> > > promoted.
> > > The high draw section was honest to as high a degree as possible. It
> > > also had some big games as open blind raise blind had entered the
> > > picture.
> >
> > > Open blind, raise blind made for more skillful action games in both
> > > lowball and highball. In a game of $100-$200, the blinds would be
> > > $50-$100-$200 with the opening bet being $300. After the draw the bet
> > > was $200. This made the draw games very good and the lowball games
> > > even better for the cheaters. Now you could put 10 or 20 bets into a
> > > pot without a problem. This was normal in the high lowball games. We
> > > wanted to play as high as we could. However, due to regulations and
> > > people that couldn't play that big, we settled for what we could.
> >
> > > In fact to get action, people would throw a card away to show they
> > > were drawing. The joker was in the game and this made for people to
> > > gamble more and for people to overplay pat 9's. The people that would
> > > discard before the action was complete, usually were drawing to a
> > > wheel with a joker. It took a long time for this practice to be
> > > stopped. This is what made it so easy to put this many bets into a
> > > pot. It also enabled many other things to happen.
> >
> > > In the next segment I will get into "how" the cheating was done. It
> > > will be very detailed in how we would scam with verbal and hand
> > > signals. It will show how there was no way to combat this. The next
> > > installment shall be coming very soon.
> >
> > > Russ Georgiev
> >
> > >www.pokermafia.com
> > >www.pokerunchecked.com
> > >www.russgeorgiev.com
> >
> > Russ,
> > Please stop beating a dead horse. GVU is dead,Skinny Lee is dead,Marty is
> > dead,
> > the shoe,the eldo,the Gardena club,the Monterey and the Rainbow no longer
> > exist (the buildings aren't even there). Get over it!!!Danny Valiant is
> > dead,the Russian is dead Rick Fess is dead.
> > Why do you insist upon reminicing about a day gone by. PLEASE STOP!!!
> >
> > hanks
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________�
> > : the next generation of web-newsreaders :http://www.recgroups.com


hanks

________________________________________________________________________
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Date: 07 Dec 2008 12:07:27
From: hanks
Subject: Re: The Way it Was-Gardena----Russ G
On Dec 7 2008 12:20 AM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> From: GCA (new...@aol.com)
> Subject: the Way it Was part 1 by GCA
> View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
> Original Format
> Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
> Date: 2001-11-26 00:06:51 PST
>
>
> I arrived in Gardena, Ca. the former Poker Capitol of the World in
> 1968. By 1969 I was already involved with all the cheats in the city.
> Card mechanics were frowned upon at this time. Yet they were
> permitted
> at certain times in the late evenings. Games were property in those
> days. They were a possession. You just didn't claim a game as your
> own. It couldn't be done this way. You had to pay your dues. Most
> card
> mechanics tried Gardena out. Most were caught very quickly. Scammers
> ruled.
>
>
> By paying your dues, this meant you had to know what was going on.
> You
> had to earn your way in. You had to show you were more of an asset
> than a hindrance. You had to of paid the floormen generous daily
> tokes
> for permission to keep any heat off yourself or the game your played
> in. You had to be accepted by the other cheats. You had to be able to
> win the money honestly at the level you were at. This took some time.
> Most could never get there at the highest level.
>
>
> The cheats played in shifts at this time. You had your morning,
> afternoon and evening crews. The older cheats had the most power and
> usually played in the morning and the afternoon. This way they didn't
> have to wait. They started the games. The card rooms opened at 9am
> and
> a crew would be in a game by 10am. Seats were reserved. Most games of
> low-ball were played in this manner. The high draw games were left
> alone for the most part. There wasn't enough money in them for the
> cheats to bother with. They were also slower in action and the "lives
> ones" preferred a lot of raising.
>
>
> The older cheats were very friendly with the management. Most had
> played in the casino's for decades. Everyone gets promoted in life
> after doing business or working at the same place for years. The
> managers were ex-floormen for the most part and the cheats had grown
> up by giving them money for years. They had worked hand and hand for
> years. The more disciplined cheats were already rich and would just
> come in to spend a few hours making a little money.
>
>
> You couldn't play on the morning shift in the big games. This were
> already taken through many years of bribery with the same people. A
> new cheat would be told to wait for them to leave. They were built in
> from the years before. They had the management to the highest levels
> on their side. If you were a cheat, you could not play while the
> older
> ones were playing [cheating]. You would be barred.
>
>
> During this period, the main way they cheated in the big games were
> through "good play and saving bets". By saving bets, I mean the
> cheats
> would keep a running score of how they were doing with the other
> cheats. They would keep small stacks of chips on the side to keep
> score. Always keeping the total as low as possible when ever a
> situation was given. An example would be if player A opened the pot
> and player B was the big blind. If all the action had passed, they
> would be in a situation by themselves. This allowed for the cheat
> that
> owed the other cheat to simply raise the pot a few times and then
> even
> the tally of the score. Naturally then would throw their hands away
> on
> the river. This was an easy way to get yourself even with a person
> that you owed 10 bets to.
>
>
> Ante and small blinds didn't count. Just bets were counted. This was
> also a tell that most of the old timers had. They all had little
> stacks of chips on a side. You could watch them go up or down
> depending on who won the pot. Many mistakes were made and many
> arguments occurred after the games about who was owed. However, this
> was the basic way of scamming back then.
>
>
> Besides bet and raising a person out of a pot, another edge was
> arrived when someone picked up a "pat six" or better in low-ball.
> Some
> of the players had agreements for pat 7-5's or better. When a cheat
> signaled the others that he had a "pat" hand, one of them would help
> him to "build a pot". The other cheat would put in as many raises as
> he thought was reasonable with the people in the middle. Some people
> would go for more raises without screaming than others. The cheat
> with
> the "pat hand" would guarantee the other cheat all his money back.
> Whether the other cheat won or lost. Sometimes the hands lost and the
> cheats would lose in the games. Sometimes the cheats would take
> advantage of a no-loss situation and draw 2 cards. If they won the
> pot
> the money was theirs. Though they would owe the "pat 6" his money
> back. One cheat might win all the money, while the others lost.This
> made way for a new style of cheating to enter soon. There was a lot
> of
> hostility. COMMUNITY BANKROLL was to enter soon.
>
>
> The old way was basically, like having four individual cheating
> groups
> in the game. Sometimes only three cheats were in the games. The
> reason
> being that some of them couldn't keep score of the "bet saving". Some
> just made mistakes on purpose. Some cheats refused to play with other
> cheats and would wait for that cheat to leave. They would weave in
> and
> out. This was the reason that everyone knew each other. Never more
> than four cheats at a table. All deals were made away from the
> tables.
>
>
> Most of the deals were constant. Whenever the cheats played, they
> would be on [save bets]. This meant that the bet-raising when
> stealing
> a pot was split. This meant they always saved bets in the games when
> they played with each other. There was no [off and on]. Once you made
> an agreement, you were on. Otherwise you didn't play while that party
> was in the game. First come first served after the morning and
> afternoon seniority.
>
>
> All cheats knew who was who. Never more than four in the game at the
> same time in the late 60's and early 70's. Sometimes no more than
> three. Management preferred this while the owners or the general
> managers were in the casino's. You had to wait your turn for the big
> game. Obviously, some had more influence than others. There were also
> 6 card rooms in Gardena at this time. So there were many games.
> Players would get heat on themselves and would go to another card
> room
> for a month. The major players were never barred, though they may get
> a months vacation for crudeness once in a while. Crudeness was when
> they would bet-raise on the river several times and no one would show
> a hand down. Crudeness was when they made things appear so badly that
> even the dumb players thought something was wrong.
>
>
> Thus some of the cheats would be forced to take a months vacation in
> another card room. Holding out cards and dealing off the bottom was
> frowned upon. Many owners would be in the card rooms during the day
> and they didn't want this going on. It was up to the floormen to
> know.
> The floormen always knew. The only time that this was permitted to
> any
> kind of degree was after the bars closed at 2am. By this time only
> the
> professionals and the "live ones and drunks" were usually left. Thus
> more tolerance was given in situations like this. All the graveyard
> shifts were crooked in all casinos.
>
>
> Everyone had their game to play in. Everyone protected their game.
> This meant they didn't want other cheats coming into the games. This
> was the reason for paying the floormen. They were the conduit for the
> protection you needed. From them the money would go to other places
> so
> as to make everyone involved happy.
>
>
> The big games were always the most coveted. The problem was getting
> into the game. It was easy to get into the game if you were playing
> honestly. But it was hard to do anything but lose. They would be
> cheating you. You just had to wait until the right time appeared. And
> the time would always appear.
>
>
> Between 1968 and 1970 or 1971, I played in the big games in a limited
> capacity. I had to settle for the second largest games. Too many
> cheats had seniority over me. I played in the big games usually late
> at night. I also played with a greater edge than others. I played the
> same money with several people. Though I saved bets with most of the
> people, the people I played the same money with did not. My guys knew
> the score. The old cheaters did not. We were very young and didn't
> get
> the respect that was due to us from the older cheaters.
>
>
> I left for a few years after getting divorced in 1970. At this time I
> received my road name of "Seattle Russ". I ran games in Seattle and
> played up and down the coast. When Montana opened I also went there.
> However I was back in LA by 1976 and was playing at the Horseshoe
> card
> room now.
>
>
> The games were now larger and better than ever. The Horseshoe at this
> time had the best reputation of any casino in town and the players
> were leaving the other casinos to play in the most honest casino in
> town at this time. Things had changed to a degree. Some of the old
> cheats had retired and some of the younger floormen had been
> promoted.
> The high draw section was honest to as high a degree as possible. It
> also had some big games as open blind raise blind had entered the
> picture.
>
>
> Open blind, raise blind made for more skillful action games in both
> lowball and highball. In a game of $100-$200, the blinds would be
> $50-$100-$200 with the opening bet being $300. After the draw the bet
> was $200. This made the draw games very good and the lowball games
> even better for the cheaters. Now you could put 10 or 20 bets into a
> pot without a problem. This was normal in the high lowball games. We
> wanted to play as high as we could. However, due to regulations and
> people that couldn't play that big, we settled for what we could.
>
>
> In fact to get action, people would throw a card away to show they
> were drawing. The joker was in the game and this made for people to
> gamble more and for people to overplay pat 9's. The people that would
> discard before the action was complete, usually were drawing to a
> wheel with a joker. It took a long time for this practice to be
> stopped. This is what made it so easy to put this many bets into a
> pot. It also enabled many other things to happen.
>
>
> In the next segment I will get into "how" the cheating was done. It
> will be very detailed in how we would scam with verbal and hand
> signals. It will show how there was no way to combat this. The next
> installment shall be coming very soon.
>
>
> Russ Georgiev
>
> www.pokermafia.com
> www.pokerunchecked.com
> www.russgeorgiev.com

Russ,
Please stop beating a dead horse. GVU is dead,Skinny Lee is dead,Marty is
dead,
the shoe,the eldo,the Gardena club,the Monterey and the Rainbow no longer
exist (the buildings aren't even there). Get over it!!!Danny Valiant is
dead,the Russian is dead Rick Fess is dead.
Why do you insist upon reminicing about a day gone by. PLEASE STOP!!!

hanks

________________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com