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Date: 04 Jan 2009 07:46:08
From: Vince
Subject: Some interesting thoughts on religion
Since we have been discussing god and religion, here are some interesting
quotes.

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours."
Unknown

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because
I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people" - Jesse
Ventura

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas
Jefferson

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of
the people." - James Madison

" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John
Adams

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the
church and the state forever separated." - Ulysses S. Grant

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

Vince





 
Date: 04 Jan 2009 16:22:46
From: Neverchop
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Vince" <vcuccia122@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:4960b073$0$10349$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
> Since we have been discussing god and religion, here are some interesting
> quotes.
>
> I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
> you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you
> will understand why I dismiss yours."
> Unknown
>
> "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do
because
> I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony
>
> "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people" - Jesse
> Ventura
>
> "Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain
>
> "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin
Franklin
>
> "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas
> Jefferson
>
> "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
> maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson
>
> "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of
> the people." - James Madison
>
> " The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John
> Adams
>
> "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
>
> "Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
> private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the
> church and the state forever separated." - Ulysses S. Grant
>
> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte
>
> Vince


It seems atheist need a lot of convincing and reinforcement that there is no
God. Such a pity, really. Of course I do agree in large part with Gov.
Ventura about organized religion. Spirituality is where its at, not in
corporate churches of any stripe.







 
Date: 04 Jan 2009 12:22:16
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Vince" <vcuccia122@comcast.net > wrote
> Since we have been discussing god and religion, here are some interesting
> quotes.
>
> I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
> you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
> you will understand why I dismiss yours."
> Unknown
>
> "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do
> because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B.
> Anthony
>
> "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people" - Jesse
> Ventura
>
> "Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain
>
> "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin
> Franklin
>
> "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas
> Jefferson
>
> "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
> maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson
>
> "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of
> the people." - James Madison
>
> " The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John
> Adams
>
> "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
>
> "Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
> private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the
> church and the state forever separated." - Ulysses S. Grant
>
> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte
>
> Vince


"Religion is an effective tool to convince young men that it will be good
for them to blow themselves up." --me



  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 15:41:38
From: da pickle
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
"Dutch"

> "Religion is an effective tool to convince young men that it will be good
> for them to blow themselves up." --me

A very effective tool!

I like it when we agree, Dutch.

Religion is also a very good way to teach morality to young men that might
otherwise think they have a right to make up their own rules.




   
Date: 05 Jan 2009 12:53:19
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"da pickle" <jcpickels@(nospam)hotmail.com > wrote
> "Dutch"
>
>> "Religion is an effective tool to convince young men that it will be good
>> for them to blow themselves up." --me
>
> A very effective tool!
>
> I like it when we agree, Dutch.
>
> Religion is also a very good way to teach morality to young men that might
> otherwise think they have a right to make up their own rules.

I'm not a big fan of using fantastic threats *or* promises to control
behavior. Once you use one edge of that sword the other becomes available. I
would prefer a more humanistic approach to morality, such as teaching
children to respect life and the rights of others without all the heaven and
hell nonsense.



    
Date: 06 Jan 2009 07:17:18
From: da pickle
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
"Dutch"

>> Religion is also a very good way to teach morality to young men that
>> might otherwise think they have a right to make up their own rules.
>
> I'm not a big fan of using fantastic threats *or* promises to control
> behavior. Once you use one edge of that sword the other becomes available.
> I would prefer a more humanistic approach to morality, such as teaching
> children to respect life and the rights of others without all the heaven
> and hell nonsense.

There is a place and time for both positive and negative reinforcement in
behavior modification ... if you are in to Skinner. I think teaching
children to respect life and the rights of others is all well and good ...
some folks seem to need a little heaven and hell to get the point across.
Maybe if everyone was above average, it would not be necessary. Some blame
god for inferior design and others blame global warming.




     
Date: 08 Jan 2009 01:07:50
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"da pickle" <jcpickels@(nospam)hotmail.com > wrote
> "Dutch"
>
>>> Religion is also a very good way to teach morality to young men that
>>> might otherwise think they have a right to make up their own rules.
>>
>> I'm not a big fan of using fantastic threats *or* promises to control
>> behavior. Once you use one edge of that sword the other becomes
>> available. I would prefer a more humanistic approach to morality, such as
>> teaching children to respect life and the rights of others without all
>> the heaven and hell nonsense.
>
> There is a place and time for both positive and negative reinforcement in
> behavior modification ... if you are in to Skinner. I think teaching
> children to respect life and the rights of others is all well and good ...
> some folks seem to need a little heaven and hell to get the point across.
> Maybe if everyone was above average, it would not be necessary.

Tell the truth, if you act badly towards others you will be the loser in the
end. I think that it is time for the human race to evolve beyond these
nonsensical fables we've been pretending to believe in.

> Some blame god for inferior design and others blame global warming.

I think we're all expressions of god, we should teach kids THAT.



      
Date: 08 Jan 2009 14:10:05
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 01:07:50 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote:

>>> I'm not a big fan of using fantastic threats *or* promises to control
>>> behavior. Once you use one edge of that sword the other becomes
>>> available. I would prefer a more humanistic approach to morality, such as
>>> teaching children to respect life and the rights of others without all
>>> the heaven and hell nonsense.
>>
>> There is a place and time for both positive and negative reinforcement in
>> behavior modification ... if you are in to Skinner. I think teaching
>> children to respect life and the rights of others is all well and good ...
>> some folks seem to need a little heaven and hell to get the point across.
>> Maybe if everyone was above average, it would not be necessary.
>
>Tell the truth, if you act badly towards others you will be the loser in the
>end. I think that it is time for the human race to evolve beyond these
>nonsensical fables we've been pretending to believe in.

Problem is that people *need* to believe in some kind of God. How
else can you explain the fact that there is and has always been some
form of religion in virtually every culture in the world? Religion
and rituals are comforting to people for various reasons.

Besides, whether or not I believe in God, there are certainly times
where it *feels* like God exists. Clearly, a lot of people have
those kinds of feelings. It wouold be awfully hard to convince the
majority of people that their feelings don't mean what they think they
mean.

As a parent, I've done my best to allow and encourage my kids to think
for themselves. But there are times, particularly when kids are
young, that they need a simple answer. God becomes very helpful at
times like those.


       
Date: 08 Jan 2009 18:00:36
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid > wrote
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 01:07:50 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I'm not a big fan of using fantastic threats *or* promises to control
>>>> behavior. Once you use one edge of that sword the other becomes
>>>> available. I would prefer a more humanistic approach to morality, such
>>>> as
>>>> teaching children to respect life and the rights of others without all
>>>> the heaven and hell nonsense.
>>>
>>> There is a place and time for both positive and negative reinforcement
>>> in
>>> behavior modification ... if you are in to Skinner. I think teaching
>>> children to respect life and the rights of others is all well and good
>>> ...
>>> some folks seem to need a little heaven and hell to get the point
>>> across.
>>> Maybe if everyone was above average, it would not be necessary.
>>
>>Tell the truth, if you act badly towards others you will be the loser in
>>the
>>end. I think that it is time for the human race to evolve beyond these
>>nonsensical fables we've been pretending to believe in.
>
> Problem is that people *need* to believe in some kind of God.

I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have twisted
the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who didn't
understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted people
to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.

How
> else can you explain the fact that there is and has always been some
> form of religion in virtually every culture in the world? Religion
> and rituals are comforting to people for various reasons.

Explain that there is a spiritual dimension to eveything, and what people
call "God" represents that spiritual dimension. A few men have had this
spirit clearly revealed to them, and have passed that wisdom on, then men
created insitutions to worship those men instead of getting the essence of
the actual message.

> Besides, whether or not I believe in God, there are certainly times
> where it *feels* like God exists. Clearly, a lot of people have
> those kinds of feelings. It wouold be awfully hard to convince the
> majority of people that their feelings don't mean what they think they
> mean.

Don't confuse the existence of God with the mythologies and practices of
man-created religions.

> As a parent, I've done my best to allow and encourage my kids to think
> for themselves. But there are times, particularly when kids are
> young, that they need a simple answer. God becomes very helpful at
> times like those.

I think that there are ways to do this and still be faithful to the truth.
Be still, quiet the mind and the emotions, park the ego. The voice of God is
inside all of us waiting to come out if we allow it to be.





        
Date: 09 Jan 2009 02:12:40
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote:

>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have twisted
>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who didn't
>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted people
>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.

It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
Different people use the same word to mean different things.


         
Date: 09 Jan 2009 14:00:01
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid > wrote in message
news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>
>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have twisted
>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who
>>didn't
>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted
>>people
>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>
> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
> Different people use the same word to mean different things.

I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details and
the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not so
much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental idea.



          
Date: 10 Jan 2009 00:31:15
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:01 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote:

>
>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have twisted
>>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who
>>>didn't
>>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted
>>>people
>>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>>
>> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
>> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
>> Different people use the same word to mean different things.
>
>I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details and
>the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not so
>much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental idea.

Is there? It seems to me that a lot of people see God as a human-like
being up in the sky presiding over our world, whereas others see God
as some sort of undefinable "higher power".


           
Date: 11 Jan 2009 17:16:08
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid > wrote
> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:01 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have
>>>>twisted
>>>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who
>>>>didn't
>>>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted
>>>>people
>>>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>>>
>>> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
>>> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
>>> Different people use the same word to mean different things.
>>
>>I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details and
>>the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not so
>>much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental idea.
>
> Is there? It seems to me that a lot of people see God as a human-like
> being up in the sky presiding over our world

I don't believe there is a significant number of folks who have that
particular belief any more.

> whereas others see God
> as some sort of undefinable "higher power".

That's by far the majority view, the disagreements mainly center around
whose "prophet" is the genuine article and whose scriptures represent "the
truth".




            
Date: 12 Jan 2009 14:57:03
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:16:08 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote:

>
>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote
>> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:01 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>>>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have
>>>>>twisted
>>>>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who
>>>>>didn't
>>>>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted
>>>>>people
>>>>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>>>>
>>>> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
>>>> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
>>>> Different people use the same word to mean different things.
>>>
>>>I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details and
>>>the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not so
>>>much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental idea.
>>
>> Is there? It seems to me that a lot of people see God as a human-like
>> being up in the sky presiding over our world
>
>I don't believe there is a significant number of folks who have that
>particular belief any more.

Really? How do you think evangelists and fundamentalists view God?
You don't think there are a significant number of those folks? ANd
that's only the beginning.

>> whereas others see God
>> as some sort of undefinable "higher power".
>
>That's by far the majority view, the disagreements mainly center around
>whose "prophet" is the genuine article and whose scriptures represent "the
>truth".

I would say the opposite, at least in the United States. The majority
here believe in a conscious, intelligent, all-knowing, all-powerful
Supreme Being.


             
Date: 12 Jan 2009 17:33:00
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid > wrote in message
news:deinm4hfb5aoekof9lmeqcpdmqe23326b4@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:16:08 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote
>>> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:01 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>>>>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have
>>>>>>twisted
>>>>>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who
>>>>>>didn't
>>>>>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted
>>>>>>people
>>>>>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
>>>>> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
>>>>> Different people use the same word to mean different things.
>>>>
>>>>I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details
>>>>and
>>>>the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not so
>>>>much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental idea.
>>>
>>> Is there? It seems to me that a lot of people see God as a human-like
>>> being up in the sky presiding over our world
>>
>>I don't believe there is a significant number of folks who have that
>>particular belief any more.
>
> Really? How do you think evangelists and fundamentalists view God?
> You don't think there are a significant number of those folks? ANd
> that's only the beginning.

I do not think that many fundamentalists think God is a bearded old man
sitting on a cloud, that is a child's fairy tale. Most fundamentalist
thinking centres not around God, but around Jesus and specific
denominational scripture interpretations.

>>> whereas others see God
>>> as some sort of undefinable "higher power".
>>
>>That's by far the majority view, the disagreements mainly center around
>>whose "prophet" is the genuine article and whose scriptures represent "the
>>truth".
>
> I would say the opposite, at least in the United States. The majority
> here believe in a conscious, intelligent, all-knowing, all-powerful
> Supreme Being.

What you just said is a far cry from a human-like figure, in the sky or
elsewhere. It could be taken in a lot of different ways. Certainly if you
include the stipulation that the human mind is not advanced enough to
comprehend the true reality of God, then what you just said would satisfy
most of us who reject religion per se but still find an intelligent force
behind the universe to be a more plausible theory than the alternative,
which is to cite Darwin then toss in the notion of a long time period then
leap to the conclusion that it explains life on earth.





              
Date: 13 Jan 2009 22:53:58
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:33:00 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote:

>
>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:deinm4hfb5aoekof9lmeqcpdmqe23326b4@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:16:08 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote
>>>> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:01 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>>>>>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have
>>>>>>>twisted
>>>>>>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people who
>>>>>>>didn't
>>>>>>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he wanted
>>>>>>>people
>>>>>>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God". That's
>>>>>> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
>>>>>> Different people use the same word to mean different things.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details
>>>>>and
>>>>>the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not so
>>>>>much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental idea.
>>>>
>>>> Is there? It seems to me that a lot of people see God as a human-like
>>>> being up in the sky presiding over our world
>>>
>>>I don't believe there is a significant number of folks who have that
>>>particular belief any more.
>>
>> Really? How do you think evangelists and fundamentalists view God?
>> You don't think there are a significant number of those folks? ANd
>> that's only the beginning.
>
>I do not think that many fundamentalists think God is a bearded old man
>sitting on a cloud, that is a child's fairy tale. Most fundamentalist
>thinking centres not around God, but around Jesus and specific
>denominational scripture interpretations.

First, the human shape isn't the key point. The key point is the
intelligence, consciousness, and power and willingness to intervene
in human affairs and enact miracles.

Secondly, fundamentalists believe the that Bible is the literal word
of God. This is why so many of them insist that the world is only
6,000 years old, and why they oppose the theory of evolution. In
Genesis, it says that God created Man in his own image. This seems to
literally imply that God looks like a human. Certainly, there are
fundamentalists who believe this.

>>>> whereas others see God
>>>> as some sort of undefinable "higher power".
>>>
>>>That's by far the majority view, the disagreements mainly center around
>>>whose "prophet" is the genuine article and whose scriptures represent "the
>>>truth".
>>
>> I would say the opposite, at least in the United States. The majority
>> here believe in a conscious, intelligent, all-knowing, all-powerful
>> Supreme Being.
>
>What you just said is a far cry from a human-like figure, in the sky or
>elsewhere. It could be taken in a lot of different ways. Certainly if you
>include the stipulation that the human mind is not advanced enough to
>comprehend the true reality of God, then what you just said would satisfy
>most of us who reject religion per se but still find an intelligent force
>behind the universe to be a more plausible theory than the alternative,
>which is to cite Darwin then toss in the notion of a long time period then
>leap to the conclusion that it explains life on earth.

Whether or not most people believe that God has the physical shape of
a human, it's extemely difficult to accept your assertion that there
is general agreement on the nature of God. To me, it appears quite
clear that there remains a wide range of beliefs about what God is or
isn't and whether or he even exists.


               
Date: 17 Jan 2009 13:57:08
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid > wrote in message
news:ub2rm45mituskghgthk088kcm23ev6bivh@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:33:00 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:deinm4hfb5aoekof9lmeqcpdmqe23326b4@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:16:08 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote
>>>>> On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:00:01 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Pepe Papon" <hitmeister@mindspring.dot.com.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:ej8em4d9n2bp35a5jqp8co870to6dr9904@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:00:36 -0800, "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I believe that there *is* some sort of God, it's just that the
>>>>>>>>religion-based fables about it/him are largely nonsense, they have
>>>>>>>>twisted
>>>>>>>>the true mean of sprituality. The fables were concocted by people
>>>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>>didn't
>>>>>>>>understand the message. Jesus didn't want to be worshipped, he
>>>>>>>>wanted
>>>>>>>>people
>>>>>>>>to connect with God, the spirit within themselves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It boils down to what you mean when you say "some sort of God".
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> part of the problem with the debate over the existence of God.
>>>>>>> Different people use the same word to mean different things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think most of the conflict comes from disagreements over the details
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>the myths and rituals that have built up within religious groups, not
>>>>>>so
>>>>>>much God itself. There is pretty good agreement on the fundamental
>>>>>>idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there? It seems to me that a lot of people see God as a human-like
>>>>> being up in the sky presiding over our world
>>>>
>>>>I don't believe there is a significant number of folks who have that
>>>>particular belief any more.
>>>
>>> Really? How do you think evangelists and fundamentalists view God?
>>> You don't think there are a significant number of those folks? ANd
>>> that's only the beginning.
>>
>>I do not think that many fundamentalists think God is a bearded old man
>>sitting on a cloud, that is a child's fairy tale. Most fundamentalist
>>thinking centres not around God, but around Jesus and specific
>>denominational scripture interpretations.
>
> First, the human shape isn't the key point. The key point is the
> intelligence, consciousness, and power and willingness to intervene
> in human affairs and enact miracles.

That's a lot of different points rolled into one statement. I am talking
about distilling out all the self-serving myths and parochialisms and
getting down to a formless power, energy or force that has some direction or
intelligence far beyond our basic understanding of that. A few men, perhaps
like a Mozart, have channeled this force.

> Secondly, fundamentalists believe the that Bible is the literal word
> of God. This is why so many of them insist that the world is only
> 6,000 years old, and why they oppose the theory of evolution. In
> Genesis, it says that God created Man in his own image. This seems to
> literally imply that God looks like a human. Certainly, there are
> fundamentalists who believe this.

Again, people believe in a lot of different mythologies, but I consider
specific religious stories, rituals and beliefs a different topic than a
fundamental belief that there is some deeper essence of everything that
transcends the worldly.

>>>>> whereas others see God
>>>>> as some sort of undefinable "higher power".
>>>>
>>>>That's by far the majority view, the disagreements mainly center around
>>>>whose "prophet" is the genuine article and whose scriptures represent
>>>>"the
>>>>truth".
>>>
>>> I would say the opposite, at least in the United States. The majority
>>> here believe in a conscious, intelligent, all-knowing, all-powerful
>>> Supreme Being.
>>
>>What you just said is a far cry from a human-like figure, in the sky or
>>elsewhere. It could be taken in a lot of different ways. Certainly if you
>>include the stipulation that the human mind is not advanced enough to
>>comprehend the true reality of God, then what you just said would satisfy
>>most of us who reject religion per se but still find an intelligent force
>>behind the universe to be a more plausible theory than the alternative,
>>which is to cite Darwin then toss in the notion of a long time period then
>>leap to the conclusion that it explains life on earth.
>
> Whether or not most people believe that God has the physical shape of
> a human, it's extemely difficult to accept your assertion that there
> is general agreement on the nature of God. To me, it appears quite
> clear that there remains a wide range of beliefs about what God is or
> isn't and whether or he even exists.

Since man evolved he has had this awareness of something transcendant. Every
culture has tried to define it or tap into it by the creation of religions
or rituals but I think to a large extent every culture has failed because
this 'whatever it is' defies the ability of our brains to define in the way
we are accustomed to defining things. Jesus told us to consider the lilies
of the fields, we missed the point of that and decided to worship *him*
instead of trying to grasp the essence of his words. We create words,
images, rituals, stories and legends of it and call THAT it, or we simply
say "it" doesn't exist. Yet there is something like a deep underlying
invisible web or force that connects all life in every moment of existence
which is never quite what we say it is, and the harder we try to define it,
the further we get from it. To me, the closest we come is when we
contemplate nothingness, space, silence. Notice how the most moving and
powerful parts of a musical piece are the pauses? Notice how the greatest
actors are the ones who can move us when they do nothing on the screen, just
"be"? Notice how great athletes or even powerful animals appear to be doing
nothing as they effortlessly perform amazing feats? Sorry, I'm babbling a
little here..







      
Date: 08 Jan 2009 01:14:23
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
"Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote in message
news:gk4fp8$l0d$1@news.motzarella.org...

<... >

> Tell the truth, if you act badly towards others you will be the loser in
> the end.

Ever see "Blackadder's Christmas Carol"?

Jim




 
Date: 04 Jan 2009 08:58:41
From: joeturn
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Jan 4, 8:46=A0am, "Vince" <vcuccia...@comcast.net > wrote:
> Since we have been discussing god and religion, here are some interesting
> quotes.
>
> =A0I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god t=
han
> you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, =
you
> will understand why I dismiss yours."
> Unknown
>
> "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do becau=
se
> I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony
>
> "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people" - Jess=
e
> Ventura

Every one knows Jesse is not that bright he simply quoted our famous
brilliant
minded Nobel Prize winner, Albert Einstien:" Religion is for the weak
minded"
>
> "Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain
>
> "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Frankl=
in
>
> "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas
> Jefferson
>
> "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
> maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson
>
> "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties o=
f
> the people." - James Madison
>
> " The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John
> Adams
>
> "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
>
> "Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, an
> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte

I think the word common here represents "a multitude of
brainwashed".
Einstiens quiz after decades of education still cant be figured out by
80% of the population.
Education dwells on grammar and degrees but these are mear hangups
prooving this statement correct:
"them that can do will, them that can't teach"
Reverend: Joeturn PHD

>
> Vince



  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 13:52:53
From: joeturn
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
Now back to the discussion! I believe in miracles!! I find it to be
miraculas that after soooo many years people are still arguing over
the existance of God! Could it be that only the 2% that could figure
out the quiz are the only ones that realy know!!?? Another phonomenon
is how sooo many people are continuously pushing ONLINE poker whan the
sites are saturated with cheats??
Now here is another miracle!!

http://www.google.com/ig?referrer=ign


  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 13:14:29
From: joeturn
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
Another fact about Albert is his IQ is unknown because he refused to
take a test designed by someone of lesser intelligence to determine
his level of genius!!


  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 12:58:31
From: joeturn
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
How could you assume such BobT, its been out for decades have you been
under a rock or just in a coma??
http://www.amazeingart.com/fun/einstein-quiz-answer.html


   
Date: 04 Jan 2009 15:42:44
From: da pickle
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
"joeturn"

> How could you assume such BobT, its been out for decades have you been
> under a rock or just in a coma??
> http://www.amazeingart.com/fun/einstein-quiz-answer.html

Do you really think Einstein wrote the quiz, joe?

Have you not seen hundreds of such logic puzzles in the past? Even before
the internet?




  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 10:54:43
From: Bob T.
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Jan 4, 10:17=A0am, "da pickle" <jcpickels@(nospam)hotmail.com > wrote:
> "Bob T."
>
> On Jan 4, 9:34 am, joeturn <joeturn2...@yahoo.com> wrote:> Below is a qui=
z written by Albert Einstein. He said 98% of
> > the people in the world cannot solve the quiz. Are you among the 2%?
>
> Wow, I didn't know that Einstein created logic puzzles! =A0You know,
> Dell has a magazine full of them every month.
>
> <snip logic puzzle>
>
>
>
> > The QUESTION IS .... who has a fish as a pet?
>
> Jonah, of course!
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> I must have this joeturn fellow in my kill file for some reason. =A0I onl=
y
> have spammers in there, or those that seem to be spammers. =A0Maybe I hav=
e to
> find him and take him out. =A0I missed the logic puzzle! =A0Is this one o=
f
> those: =A0a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle ... sort of thi=
ng?

No, it's a classic logic puzzle like thousands of others. I doubt if
Einstein had anything to do with it. See below.

- Bob T.

FACTS:
1. There are 5 houses (in a row) in 5 different colours.
2. In each house lives a person with a different nationality.
3. These 5 owners drink a certain beverage, smoke a certain brand of
cigar and keep a certain pet.
4. No owners have the same pet, smoke the same brand of cigar, or
drink the same drink.


HINTS:
1. The Brit lives in a red house.
2. The Swede keeps dogs as pets.
3. The Dane drinks tea.
4. The green house is on the immediate left of the white house.
5. The green house owner drinks coffee.
6. The person who smokes Pall Mall cigars rears birds.
7. The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhill cigars.
8. The man living in the house right in the center drinks milk.
9. The Norwegian lives in the first house.
10. The man who smokes Blend cigars lives next to the cat owner.
11. The man who keeps horses lives next to the man who smokes
Dunhill.
12. The man who smokes Blue Master cigars drinks beer.
13. The German smokes Prince cigars.
14. The Norwegian lives next to the blue house.
15. The man who smokes Blend cigars has a neighbor who drinks water.


The QUESTION IS .... who has a fish as a pet?



  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 10:10:52
From: Bob T.
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
On Jan 4, 9:34=A0am, joeturn <joeturn2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Below is a quiz written by Albert Einstein. He said 98% of
> the people in the world cannot solve the quiz. Are you among the 2%?
>
Wow, I didn't know that Einstein created logic puzzles! You know,
Dell has a magazine full of them every month.

<snip logic puzzle >
>
> The QUESTION IS .... who has a fish as a pet?

Jonah, of course!

- Bob T.



   
Date: 04 Jan 2009 12:17:35
From: da pickle
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
"Bob T."

On Jan 4, 9:34 am, joeturn <joeturn2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Below is a quiz written by Albert Einstein. He said 98% of
> the people in the world cannot solve the quiz. Are you among the 2%?
>
Wow, I didn't know that Einstein created logic puzzles! You know,
Dell has a magazine full of them every month.

<snip logic puzzle >
>
> The QUESTION IS .... who has a fish as a pet?

Jonah, of course!
==================

I must have this joeturn fellow in my kill file for some reason. I only
have spammers in there, or those that seem to be spammers. Maybe I have to
find him and take him out. I missed the logic puzzle! Is this one of
those: a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle ... sort of thing?




    
Date: 04 Jan 2009 12:24:24
From: Susan
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"da pickle" <jcpickels@(nospam)hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Y5qdnQ3Ek5rVYP3URVn_vwA@giganews.com...
> "Bob T."
>
> On Jan 4, 9:34 am, joeturn <joeturn2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Below is a quiz written by Albert Einstein. He said 98% of
>> the people in the world cannot solve the quiz. Are you among the 2%?
>>
> Wow, I didn't know that Einstein created logic puzzles! You know,
> Dell has a magazine full of them every month.
>
> <snip logic puzzle>
>>
>> The QUESTION IS .... who has a fish as a pet?
>
> Jonah, of course!
> ==================
>
> I must have this joeturn fellow in my kill file for some reason. I only
> have spammers in there, or those that seem to be spammers. Maybe I have
> to find him and take him out. I missed the logic puzzle! Is this one of
> those: a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle ... sort of thing?

I have him killfiled also - he must be the alterego of someone else.




  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 09:34:20
From: joeturn
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
Below is a quiz written by Albert Einstein. He said 98% of
the people in the world cannot solve the quiz. Are you among the 2%?

FACTS:
1. There are 5 houses (in a row) in 5 different colours.
2. In each house lives a person with a different nationality.
3. These 5 owners drink a certain beverage, smoke a certain brand of
cigar and keep a certain pet.
4. No owners have the same pet, smoke the same brand of cigar, or
drink the same drink.

HINTS:
1. The Brit lives in a red house.
2. The Swede keeps dogs as pets.
3. The Dane drinks tea.
4. The green house is on the immediate left of the white house.
5. The green house owner drinks coffee.
6. The person who smokes Pall Mall cigars rears birds.
7. The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhill cigars.
8. The man living in the house right in the center drinks milk.
9. The Norwegian lives in the first house.
10. The man who smokes Blend cigars lives next to the cat owner.
11. The man who keeps horses lives next to the man who smokes Dunhill.
12. The man who smokes Blue Master cigars drinks beer.
13. The German smokes Prince cigars.
14. The Norwegian lives next to the blue house.
15. The man who smokes Blend cigars has a neighbor who drinks water.

The QUESTION IS .... who has a fish as a pet?




 
Date: 04 Jan 2009 04:59:01
From: Paul Popinjay
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion

"Vince" <vcuccia122@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:4960b073$0$10349$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
> Since we have been discussing god and religion, here are some interesting
> quotes.
>
> I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
> you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
> you will understand why I dismiss yours."
> Unknown
>
> "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do
> because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B.
> Anthony
>
> "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people" - Jesse
> Ventura
>
> "Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain
>
> "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin
> Franklin
>
> "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas
> Jefferson
>
> "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
> maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson
>
> "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of
> the people." - James Madison
>
> " The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John
> Adams
>
> "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
>
> "Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
> private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the
> church and the state forever separated." - Ulysses S. Grant
>
> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> -- Napoleon Bonaparte
>
> Vince
>

"You are lucky that I am not God. He has a lot more patience than I do. I
wouldn't put up with your shit." -- Paul Popinjay, rgp, Jan.3, 2009





  
Date: 04 Jan 2009 08:15:07
From: WaltWhitman
Subject: Re: Some interesting thoughts on religion
I wrote this about 150 years ago. It is from my poem"SONG OF MYSELF" and
was published in my book "LEAVES OF GRASS":

And I say to mankind, be be not curious about God
For I who am curious about each am not curious about God
(no array of words can say how much I am at peace about God and about
death)

I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God not in the least.
Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself.
.......

I find letters from God dropt in the street, and every one is sign'd by
Gods name,
And I leave them where they are, for I know that wheresoe'er I go
Others will punctually come for ever and ever.

If you read my Poem from beginning to end, you will realize that
everything said about God in words is nonsense. The universe contains
"HIGHER FORCES" which are totally unknowable by us.

Walt



On Jan 4 2009 4:59 AM, Paul Popinjay wrote:

> "Vince" <vcuccia122@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:4960b073$0$10349$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
> > Since we have been discussing god and religion, here are some interesting
> > quotes.
> >
> > I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
> > you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
> > you will understand why I dismiss yours."
> > Unknown
> >
> > "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do
> > because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B.
> > Anthony
> >
> > "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people" - Jesse
> > Ventura
> >
> > "Faith is believing something you know ain't true." - Mark Twain
> >
> > "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin
> > Franklin
> >
> > "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas
> > Jefferson
> >
> > "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
> > maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson
> >
> > "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of
> > the people." - James Madison
> >
> > " The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John
> > Adams
> >
> > "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
> >
> > "Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
> > private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the
> > church and the state forever separated." - Ulysses S. Grant
> >
> > "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet."
> > -- Napoleon Bonaparte
> >
> > Vince
> >
>
> "You are lucky that I am not God. He has a lot more patience than I do. I
> wouldn't put up with your shit." -- Paul Popinjay, rgp, Jan.3, 2009


I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself
I am Large
I contain multitudes

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