Question for the Professor

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Date: 19 Dec 2008 23:03:56
From: mccard
Subject: Question for the Professor

You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
why?

Date: 24 Dec 2008 16:20:45
From: Tim Norfolk
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20, 12:03=EF=BF=BDam, "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none > wrote:
> You have a college student one of the sciences. =EF=BF=BDSecond year elec=
tive class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a =
C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally gett=
ing
> it. =EF=BF=BDFinal comes and he gets 89% on the final. =EF=BF=BDWhat grad=
e does he get and
> why?

I give them a C-, as that's what the average probably will be. It's a
sign that they should re-take the course, or never take another in
that discipline. As for some of the other comments in this thread, I
am so sick of hearing how 'useless" pde's or other mathematical
concepts are. Just because you learned something, and don't remember
using it doesn't mean that it wasn't useful to you. This computer, and
pretty much all of our modern comforts were made possible by very high
level mathematics and physics. Attempts to short-circuit this process,
by just teaching mathematical results without the theory and
background, have proven to be worse than useless.

Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:16:47
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Date: 22 Dec 2008 03:39:24
From: Travel
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28017425/

This is an interesting article. Every now and then an article will pop
up about how the traditions of high standards in the medical
professions are attacked.

I remember reading an article about ten years or so ago ago, where med
students/grads were complaining about the long hours associated with
residency. Uh, duh! that's the point.

Well, there's nothing the prevailing political persuasion of academe
likes better than lowering standards. And so, the work hours were
backed-off for hospital residents.

Apparently, the standards haven't been lowered enough to suit the
entitlement generation wonders, and from the article, you can see that
they're still at it.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
Visit www.pokermagazine.com

Date: 21 Dec 2008 10:03:57
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:

> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> why?

My parents were both professors (my father engineering at UCLA and my
mother psychology at Harvey Mudd, but she had retired before I was born
and gone back to private practice). From the earliest days of my
schooling my parents made it clear that anything other than an A or A+ was
a failing grade (even an A-).

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 14:59:28
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

These days, that would probably qualify as child abuse!

Mel
"brewmaster" <a163b@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:d1d226xiiv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>> C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>> getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>> and
>> why?
>
> My parents were both professors (my father engineering at UCLA and my
> mother psychology at Harvey Mudd, but she had retired before I was born
> and gone back to private practice). From the earliest days of my
> schooling my parents made it clear that anything other than an A or A+ was
> a failing grade (even an A-).
>
>
> Brew
> --
> Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
>

Date: 21 Dec 2008 14:45:52
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 2:59 PM, MZB wrote:

> These days, that would probably qualify as child abuse!

When I was in grade school whenever my father yelled at me about my grades
I'd show him where they defined C as average and pointed out that one B
and 6 C's was an above average performance.

Then he'd through a beer bottle at me and I'd duck and go hide in the
woods for a couple of hours.

In a 10th grade science class we had a 100 question multiple choice final.
I figured out that I needed a 46 on the final to make a C in the class.
I answered 46 questions and turned it in (I was a smart ass kid in high
school).

The teacher knew my dad and called him to tell him to tell me I'd missed
one. I had not missed one but they thought telliing me I had would "teach
me a lesson". The lesson I learned was to not believe anything a school
employee ever tells you.

I ended up making surprisingly good grades in college for someone who
never much gave a shit what grade I got.
>
> Mel
> "brewmaster" <a163b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:d1d226xiiv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:
> >
> >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> >> class.
> >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> >> C.
> >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
> >> getting
> >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
> >> and
> >> why?
> >
> > My parents were both professors (my father engineering at UCLA and my
> > mother psychology at Harvey Mudd, but she had retired before I was born
> > and gone back to private practice). From the earliest days of my
> > schooling my parents made it clear that anything other than an A or A+ was
> > a failing grade (even an A-).
> >
> >
> > Brew
> > --
> > Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk
> >

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 09:41:05
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:

> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> why?

Based on your example with no extra knowledge of a special system for
grading (one that would weight the final greater if your final grade
significantly exceeded your previous grades) this student should get a D.
Giving him a C would be unfair to other students who actually "earned" a
C. OTOH, my personal feeling is that if you are getting Cs and Ds in
college you should drop out immediately because you are wasting your
parent's money. Why would you go to college if you don't intend on
getting an A in every course?

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

-----
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Date: 21 Dec 2008 11:43:46
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"brewmaster" <a163b@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:hmb226xsdv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>> C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>> getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>> and
>> why?
>
> Based on your example with no extra knowledge of a special system for
> grading (one that would weight the final greater if your final grade
> significantly exceeded your previous grades) this student should get a D.
> Giving him a C would be unfair to other students who actually "earned" a
> C. OTOH, my personal feeling is that if you are getting Cs and Ds in
> college you should drop out immediately because you are wasting your
> parent's money. Why would you go to college if you don't intend on
> getting an A in every course?
>
>
Right, drop out and tune into Rush Limbaugh and the right wing amigos for
your education, lol.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 10:11:17
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 9:43 AM, mccard wrote:

> "brewmaster" <a163b@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:hmb226xsdv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:
> >
> >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> >> class.
> >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> >> C.
> >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
> >> getting
> >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
> >> and
> >> why?
> >
> > Based on your example with no extra knowledge of a special system for
> > grading (one that would weight the final greater if your final grade
> > significantly exceeded your previous grades) this student should get a D.
> > Giving him a C would be unfair to other students who actually "earned" a
> > C. OTOH, my personal feeling is that if you are getting Cs and Ds in
> > college you should drop out immediately because you are wasting your
> > parent's money. Why would you go to college if you don't intend on
> > getting an A in every course?
> >
> >
> Right, drop out and tune into Rush Limbaugh and the right wing amigos for
> your education, lol.

Or, you know, work hard, learn something, and get good grades?

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 12:41:57
From: MB_
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Brew:

YOU NAILED IT!!

Mel
"brewmaster" <a163b@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:hmb226xsdv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2008 9:03 PM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>> C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>> getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>> and
>> why?
>
> Based on your example with no extra knowledge of a special system for
> grading (one that would weight the final greater if your final grade
> significantly exceeded your previous grades) this student should get a D.
> Giving him a C would be unfair to other students who actually "earned" a
> C. OTOH, my personal feeling is that if you are getting Cs and Ds in
> college you should drop out immediately because you are wasting your
> parent's money. Why would you go to college if you don't intend on
> getting an A in every course?
>
> Brew
> --
> Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk
>
> -----
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
>
>

Date: 20 Dec 2008 09:10:23
From: Raider Fan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19 2008 11:03 PM, mccard wrote:

> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> why?

Speaking of under achievers, I was in some bullshit elective liberal arts
class - Introduction to Fiction Writing. I wrote two short stories and
failed to turn in my review of the other students' work.

Some of the class and the professor went out for a few beers near the end
of the quarter. I was bullshitting with him telling him I took the class
for fun and didn't care about the grade. He gave me my C and I sure as
hell didn't deserve it.

____________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com

Date: 20 Dec 2008 12:27:12
From: FL Turbo
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:10:23 -0800, "Raider Fan"
<raidersgotscrewed1@hotmail.com > wrote:

>On Dec 19 2008 11:03 PM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
>> why?
>
>Speaking of under achievers, I was in some bullshit elective liberal arts
>class - Introduction to Fiction Writing. I wrote two short stories and
>failed to turn in my review of the other students' work.
>
>Some of the class and the professor went out for a few beers near the end
>of the quarter. I was bullshitting with him telling him I took the class
>for fun and didn't care about the grade. He gave me my C and I sure as
>hell didn't deserve it.
>

I narrowly escaped getting an F in a course on differential equations.
By the end of the quarter I had completely lost it, and was clueless
as to what was going on.

I stopped in at the instructor's office to find out my grade before it
was sent out.
By sheer luck, I caught him at the exact time that he was trying to
decide whether to give me a D or an F.

He gave me a D.

Whew!
Close call, that.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 15:06:15
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 1:27 PM, FL Turbo wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:10:23 -0800, "Raider Fan"
> <raidersgotscrewed1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 19 2008 11:03 PM, mccard wrote:
> >
> >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
class.
> >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
C.
> >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
getting
> >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
and
> >> why?
> >
> >Speaking of under achievers, I was in some bullshit elective liberal arts
> >class - Introduction to Fiction Writing. I wrote two short stories and
> >failed to turn in my review of the other students' work.
> >
> >Some of the class and the professor went out for a few beers near the end
> >of the quarter. I was bullshitting with him telling him I took the class
> >for fun and didn't care about the grade. He gave me my C and I sure as
> >hell didn't deserve it.
> >
>
> I narrowly escaped getting an F in a course on differential equations.
> By the end of the quarter I had completely lost it, and was clueless
> as to what was going on.
>
> I stopped in at the instructor's office to find out my grade before it
> was sent out.
> By sheer luck, I caught him at the exact time that he was trying to
> decide whether to give me a D or an F.

I took an undergraduate math course from an old Polish guy who'd been
teaching in Moscow for 25 years or so and had just moved to the US. He
started at LSU in the summer term and he taught the course without tests.
Just homework assignments and then he'd call us to the board -- he would
grade us on our blackboard performance. If we screwed up at the board
he'd call on us again next day to see if we'd figured it out yet. It was
a small class, only about 15 students and Altman (the teacher) couldn't
speak English very well.

The last day of class he comes in and tells us the dean has told him that
he must give a final exam in an undergraduate class so there would be a
final on the scheduled day. A lot of moans from the students.

I took the final and turned it in and when I gave it to him I asked if
he'd be posting grades.

"You got a B", he said.

I said, "How do you know, you haven't graded the final yet".

He said, "The dean told me I'm required to give a final. He did not tell
me I'm required to grade them.".

>
> He gave me a D.
>
> Whew!
> Close call, that.

-----
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Date: 20 Dec 2008 08:40:32
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, mccard wrote:

> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> why?

I don't understand the question.

Really. I don't.

What is the 89%? Is that a percent of the highest score on the final?
Percent of questions answered correctly?

How do you write a final where each question is either right or wrong?

What's the distyribution of final grades? Is 89 the highest grade and
the next highest is a 45? Is 89 the lowest grade in a class of 50
students?

The way you tried to frame the question puts it way outside my frame of
experience teaching a college course.

________________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com

Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:44:44
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

garycarson wrote:
> On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
>> why?
>
> I don't understand the question.
>
> Really. I don't.
>
> What is the 89%? Is that a percent of the highest score on the final?
> Percent of questions answered correctly?
>
> How do you write a final where each question is either right or wrong?
>
> What's the distyribution of final grades? Is 89 the highest grade and
> the next highest is a 45? Is 89 the lowest grade in a class of 50
> students?
>
> The way you tried to frame the question puts it way outside my frame of
> experience teaching a college course.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
>
>

Which brings us to favorite final exam questions.

3rd Semester Honors Math course. First page is "fill in the blank".

1..8 moderately uninteresting

9. If -------- is a ---------- then ----------- is a ------------.

10. ---------- ----------- ------------ ----------- ----------.

And my favorite (one I still use, from time to time):

"Organize the material of this course into a pleasant essay."

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

Date: 20 Dec 2008 10:47:52
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote in message
news:0pjv16xgvg.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>> C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>> getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>> and
>> why?
>
> I don't understand the question.
>
> Really. I don't.
>
> What is the 89%? Is that a percent of the highest score on the final?
> Percent of questions answered correctly?
>
> How do you write a final where each question is either right or wrong?
>
> What's the distyribution of final grades? Is 89 the highest grade and
> the next highest is a 45? Is 89 the lowest grade in a class of 50
> students?
>
> The way you tried to frame the question puts it way outside my frame of
> experience teaching a college course.
>
>
Yeah, this is just like what you get from the point of view of a typical
geekoid college professor who can't understand what an 89% on a final means,
I get it. No wonder we have so many failures in this country, our profs are
idiots. No offense Gary.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 18:25:47
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 11:47 AM, mccard wrote:

> "garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:0pjv16xgvg.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, mccard wrote:
> >
> >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> >> class.
> >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> >> C.
> >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
> >> getting
> >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
> >> and
> >> why?
> >
> > I don't understand the question.
> >
> > Really. I don't.
> >
> > What is the 89%? Is that a percent of the highest score on the final?
> > Percent of questions answered correctly?
> >
> > How do you write a final where each question is either right or wrong?
> >
> > What's the distyribution of final grades? Is 89 the highest grade and
> > the next highest is a 45? Is 89 the lowest grade in a class of 50
> > students?
> >
> > The way you tried to frame the question puts it way outside my frame of
> > experience teaching a college course.
> >
> >
> Yeah, this is just like what you get from the point of view of a typical
> geekoid college professor who can't understand what an 89% on a final means,
> I get it. No wonder we have so many failures in this country, our profs are
> idiots. No offense Gary.

On the first day of class I went over the part of the syllabus that
explained that anybody that kept up by doing the homework when assigned,
readiing the text ahead of the lecture and went to class would probably
make at least a B and that anybody who let themselves get behind would be
lucky if they got a C.

This student clearly didn't pay attention that first day of class and he
didn't get lucky.

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Date: 20 Dec 2008 21:22:14
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote in message
news:b2m026x3bl.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 20 2008 11:47 AM, mccard wrote:
>
>> "garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>> news:0pjv16xgvg.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> > On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, mccard wrote:
>> >
>> >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> >> class.
>> >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make
>> >> a
>> >> C.
>> >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>> >> getting
>> >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>> >> and
>> >> why?
>> >
>> > I don't understand the question.
>> >
>> > Really. I don't.
>> >
>> > What is the 89%? Is that a percent of the highest score on the final?
>> > Percent of questions answered correctly?
>> >
>> > How do you write a final where each question is either right or wrong?
>> >
>> > What's the distyribution of final grades? Is 89 the highest grade and
>> > the next highest is a 45? Is 89 the lowest grade in a class of 50
>> > students?
>> >
>> > The way you tried to frame the question puts it way outside my frame of
>> > experience teaching a college course.
>> >
>> >
>> Yeah, this is just like what you get from the point of view of a typical
>> geekoid college professor who can't understand what an 89% on a final
>> means,
>> I get it. No wonder we have so many failures in this country, our profs
>> are
>> idiots. No offense Gary.
>
> On the first day of class I went over the part of the syllabus that
> explained that anybody that kept up by doing the homework when assigned,
> readiing the text ahead of the lecture and went to class would probably
> make at least a B and that anybody who let themselves get behind would be
> lucky if they got a C.
>
> This student clearly didn't pay attention that first day of class and he
> didn't get lucky.
>
>
Anyone mention that you get kinda of a pompous ass sound when you put on
your professor persona?

Date: 20 Dec 2008 21:38:09
From: BillB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"mccard" <no_won@no_won.none > wrote in message
news:%Di3l.8062$cL7.2782@newsfe22.iad...

> Anyone mention that you get kinda of a pompous ass sound when you put on
> your professor persona?

But he gave you the correct answer. I'd give him a C because I'm a nice guy.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 09:14:13
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"BillB" <bogus@shaw1.ca > wrote in message
news:6Dk3l.71929$5P1.6965@newsfe13.iad...
>
> "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none> wrote in message
> news:%Di3l.8062$cL7.2782@newsfe22.iad...
>
>> Anyone mention that you get kinda of a pompous ass sound when you put on
>> your professor persona?
>
> But he gave you the correct answer. I'd give him a C because I'm a nice
> guy.
>
Yup, the "right" answer was C and the rationale I was hoping for goes
something like "a scientifically oriented mind, even if it doesn't begin to
blossom until near the end of the semester, is a terrible thing to waste".
But for some, just a closer reading of scripture makes scientific minds
redundant, give all the science kiddies D and ship them to lib farts, lol

Date: 20 Dec 2008 14:02:15
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

McCard:

I just want to compliment you on starting this thread.

You actually struck a deep chord and we got some great answers.

Mel
"mccard" <no_won@no_won.none > wrote in message
news:fl93l.49401$mY6.31124@newsfe10.iad...
>
> "garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
> news:0pjv16xgvg.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, mccard wrote:
>>
>>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>>> class.
>>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>>> C.
>>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>>> getting
>>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>>> and
>>> why?
>>
>> I don't understand the question.
>>
>> Really. I don't.
>>
>> What is the 89%? Is that a percent of the highest score on the final?
>> Percent of questions answered correctly?
>>
>> How do you write a final where each question is either right or wrong?
>>
>> What's the distyribution of final grades? Is 89 the highest grade and
>> the next highest is a 45? Is 89 the lowest grade in a class of 50
>> students?
>>
>> The way you tried to frame the question puts it way outside my frame of
>> experience teaching a college course.
>>
>>
> Yeah, this is just like what you get from the point of view of a typical
> geekoid college professor who can't understand what an 89% on a final
> means, I get it. No wonder we have so many failures in this country, our
> profs are idiots. No offense Gary.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 08:22:31
From: Joel Olson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"mccard" <no_won@no_won.none > wrote in message
news:f1%2l.39$fc3.16@newsfe02.iad...
> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade
> does he get and why?

Depends on the school's planned class sizes. What's the percent difference
in
size between the 2nd year and 3rd year classes?
Max difference, you flunk him; Min difference, he gets his B.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:39:45
From: Jason Pawloski
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19 2008 10:03 PM, mccard wrote:

> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> why?

Assuming the final was comprehensive and a fair representation of what the
course covered, I would give him whatever a 89% represents, which is most
likely a B. This is college right, not high school?

In my intro to differential equations course my professor had 4 tests and
an exam as the final grade. He would average, or if the comprehensive
final was better than the average, he would give you that grade.

I bombed each of the tests in spectacular fashion, not studying, not doing
homework, etc. The weekend before the final, I managed to stop drinking
long enough to cuddle up with a good, solid, DE book (not the text book),
and learned what I needed to know in about a cumulative of 16 hours of
work over the week. We were allowed to bring an note card to the exam, I
declined.

I was the only one who opted to take the exam, as everyone else was happy
with their score. There were 10 questions. I knew all of them but one,
which I could only half-complete (and got half credit). I couldn't
complete an integral that required a double u-substitution (tricky, kind
of, but not material covered in a DE class) and I couldn't remember the
half-life of Uranium ("you should have put it on your note card", and not
DE related). I should have got a 95% but ended up with an 85%. I took my B
doing the minimal work required.

I used to know DE and PDE like the back of my hand, even taking some
graduate level classes in it as an undergrad. Now I can't even remember
which way the contraction goes in a Lipschitz inequality, but hey you use
it to prove existence or uniqueness or something.

--
"Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 19:25:08
From: Tim Norfolk
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21, 7:56=EF=BF=BDpm, Bill T <wct...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> On 12/21/2008 09:55, brewmaster wrote:
>
> > I don't understand why you people went to college if all you did was
> > drink, skip classes, and bomb tests. =EF=BF=BDWhat was the point?
>
> You forgot pool, pinball, easy access to nubile women, and good pot.
>
> There are very few courses of study where undergrad learning is directly
> useful for a later career. =EF=BF=BDEngineering and CS come to mind. =EF=
=BF=BDOn the
> other hand, I haven't had a moment when my studies in relativity and
> partial differential equations make any difference in real life.

Actually, I just wrote a paper in sampling which involved a simple
pde. You just never know.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 09:55:44
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 12:39 AM, Jason Pawloski wrote:

> On Dec 19 2008 10:03 PM, mccard wrote:
>
> > You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
class.
> > Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
C.
> > He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
getting
> > it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> > why?
>
> Assuming the final was comprehensive and a fair representation of what the
> course covered, I would give him whatever a 89% represents, which is most
> likely a B. This is college right, not high school?
>
> In my intro to differential equations course my professor had 4 tests and
> an exam as the final grade. He would average, or if the comprehensive
> final was better than the average, he would give you that grade.
>
> I bombed each of the tests in spectacular fashion, not studying, not doing
> homework, etc. The weekend before the final, I managed to stop drinking
> long enough to cuddle up with a good, solid, DE book (not the text book),
> and learned what I needed to know in about a cumulative of 16 hours of
> work over the week. We were allowed to bring an note card to the exam, I
> declined.

I don't understand why you people went to college if all you did was
drink, skip classes, and bomb tests. What was the point?

Bear in mind that I was the guy in high school that pointed out to the
teacher that she forgot to give us homework.

>
> I was the only one who opted to take the exam, as everyone else was happy
> with their score. There were 10 questions. I knew all of them but one,
> which I could only half-complete (and got half credit). I couldn't
> complete an integral that required a double u-substitution (tricky, kind
> of, but not material covered in a DE class) and I couldn't remember the
> half-life of Uranium ("you should have put it on your note card", and not
> DE related). I should have got a 95% but ended up with an 85%. I took my B
> doing the minimal work required.
>
> I used to know DE and PDE like the back of my hand, even taking some
> graduate level classes in it as an undergrad. Now I can't even remember
> which way the contraction goes in a Lipschitz inequality, but hey you use
> it to prove existence or uniqueness or something.
>
> --
> "Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
> Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 17:49:50
From: Jason Pawloski
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 10:55 AM, brewmaster wrote:

> On Dec 20 2008 12:39 AM, Jason Pawloski wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19 2008 10:03 PM, mccard wrote:
> >
> > > You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> class.
> > > Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> C.
> > > He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
> getting
> > > it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
and
> > > why?
> >
> > Assuming the final was comprehensive and a fair representation of what the
> > course covered, I would give him whatever a 89% represents, which is most
> > likely a B. This is college right, not high school?
> >
> > In my intro to differential equations course my professor had 4 tests and
> > an exam as the final grade. He would average, or if the comprehensive
> > final was better than the average, he would give you that grade.
> >
> > I bombed each of the tests in spectacular fashion, not studying, not doing
> > homework, etc. The weekend before the final, I managed to stop drinking
> > long enough to cuddle up with a good, solid, DE book (not the text book),
> > and learned what I needed to know in about a cumulative of 16 hours of
> > work over the week. We were allowed to bring an note card to the exam, I
> > declined.
>
> I don't understand why you people went to college if all you did was
> drink, skip classes, and bomb tests. What was the point?
>
> Bear in mind that I was the guy in high school that pointed out to the
> teacher that she forgot to give us homework.

It's a problem of optimization. How can I get the lowest acceptable grade
(for you) doing the least possible work?

I'd like to point out that I got as much out of that class as anyone else.
I knew DEs like the back of my hand, and I know as much if not more than
anyone in that class, and it only took me 16 hours at the end of the
semester.

>
> >
> > I was the only one who opted to take the exam, as everyone else was happy
> > with their score. There were 10 questions. I knew all of them but one,
> > which I could only half-complete (and got half credit). I couldn't
> > complete an integral that required a double u-substitution (tricky, kind
> > of, but not material covered in a DE class) and I couldn't remember the
> > half-life of Uranium ("you should have put it on your note card", and not
> > DE related). I should have got a 95% but ended up with an 85%. I took my B
> > doing the minimal work required.
> >
> > I used to know DE and PDE like the back of my hand, even taking some
> > graduate level classes in it as an undergrad. Now I can't even remember
> > which way the contraction goes in a Lipschitz inequality, but hey you use
> > it to prove existence or uniqueness or something.
> >
> > --
> > "Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
> > Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)
>
>
> Brew
> --
> Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

--
"Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 16:56:04
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/21/2008 09:55, brewmaster wrote:

> I don't understand why you people went to college if all you did was
> drink, skip classes, and bomb tests. What was the point?

You forgot pool, pinball, easy access to nubile women, and good pot.

There are very few courses of study where undergrad learning is directly
useful for a later career. Engineering and CS come to mind. On the
other hand, I haven't had a moment when my studies in relativity and
partial differential equations make any difference in real life.

Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:40:42
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Bill T wrote:
> On 12/21/2008 09:55, brewmaster wrote:
>
>> I don't understand why you people went to college if all you did was
>> drink, skip classes, and bomb tests. What was the point?
>
>
> You forgot pool, pinball, easy access to nubile women, and good pot.
>
> There are very few courses of study where undergrad learning is directly
> useful for a later career. Engineering and CS come to mind. On the
> other hand, I haven't had a moment when my studies in relativity and
> partial differential equations make any difference in real life.
>
>
>

Because you turned out to be not very good at it?

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

Date: 20 Dec 2008 09:04:32
From: Raider Fan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 2:39 AM, Jason Pawloski wrote:

>
We were allowed to bring an note card to the exam, I
> declined.
>

This reminds me of a final for Physics with calculus. My brother (the
Doctor) was in this class with me. I was failing miserably going into the
final. We had a couple of friends that were in Engineering and pre-med.
My brother made my card for the final.

I took home a C with basically no work except for the card. Our friends
both got C's and they are still pissed to this day. Too funny!

It was a multiple choice exam with partial credit given. One question
wasn't covered by the card, but I knew the answer was negative. There
were only two negative answers available. I drew a picture of a stick man
fishing in a boat and showed it had to be negative. I missed my 50/50 (my
current poker life) and got NO partial credit.

That professor had a stick up his ass if he couldn't give some love for
that attempt!

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Date: 20 Dec 2008 09:40:44
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Jason Pawloski" <a6794a4@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:hjnu16xkee.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 19 2008 10:03 PM, mccard wrote:
>
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class.
>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>> C.
>> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>> getting
>> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
>> and
>> why?
>
> Assuming the final was comprehensive and a fair representation of what the
> course covered, I would give him whatever a 89% represents, which is most
> likely a B. This is college right, not high school?
>
I was thinking a C rather than a B. In this college a D does not allow you
to take another class in the same science until you do the original class
over. Too much a penalty, in my mind for someone who might have had a
moment of insight as to what their future direction might be.

I don't like the idea of shuffling off potential science minds to the lib
farts or the accounting / mba zoo unless the student demonstrates a little
more clearly they are not capable.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 09:58:31
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 7:40 AM, mccard wrote:

> "Jason Pawloski" <a6794a4@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:hjnu16xkee.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > On Dec 19 2008 10:03 PM, mccard wrote:
> >
> >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> >> class.
> >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> >> C.
> >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
> >> getting
> >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
> >> and
> >> why?
> >
> > Assuming the final was comprehensive and a fair representation of what the
> > course covered, I would give him whatever a 89% represents, which is most
> > likely a B. This is college right, not high school?
> >
> I was thinking a C rather than a B. In this college a D does not allow you
> to take another class in the same science until you do the original class
> over. Too much a penalty, in my mind for someone who might have had a
> moment of insight as to what their future direction might be.
>
> I don't like the idea of shuffling off potential science minds to the lib
> farts or the accounting / mba zoo unless the student demonstrates a little
> more clearly they are not capable.

Personally I'd rather get the D, retake the class, and replace the D on my
transcript with an A.

Brew
--
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Date: 21 Dec 2008 14:36:17
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 12:58 PM, brewmaster wrote:

> On Dec 20 2008 7:40 AM, mccard wrote:
>
> > "Jason Pawloski" <a6794a4@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:hjnu16xkee.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > > On Dec 19 2008 10:03 PM, mccard wrote:
> > >
> > >> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> > >> class.
> > >> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make
a
> > >> C.
> > >> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
> > >> getting
> > >> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get
> > >> and
> > >> why?
> > >
> > > Assuming the final was comprehensive and a fair representation of what
the
> > > course covered, I would give him whatever a 89% represents, which is most
> > > likely a B. This is college right, not high school?
> > >
> > I was thinking a C rather than a B. In this college a D does not allow
you
> > to take another class in the same science until you do the original class
> > over. Too much a penalty, in my mind for someone who might have had a
> > moment of insight as to what their future direction might be.
> >
> > I don't like the idea of shuffling off potential science minds to the lib
> > farts or the accounting / mba zoo unless the student demonstrates a little
> > more clearly they are not capable.
>
> Personally I'd rather get the D, retake the class, and replace the D on my
> transcript with an A.
>

My first semester in college I had an option to opt out of college algegra
but I went ahead and took it anyway -- I'd been out of high school a
couple of years and thought I could use the review plus thought it would
be an easy grade.

Pretty early in the course I figured out I didn't need to go to class,
just show up for the exams. So I did that. I wasn't making an A, a B or
C, but that was fine with me.

The final was all stuff from the last two weeks of class that I'd never
seen in my life. We hadn't covered it in high school. I made a zero on
the final.

F

The next semester I went to class, did my homework. Made an A.

The A did not replace the F in the transcript. Forty years later that F
is still on my LSU transcript. It never caused me to not get a job and
never caused a problem with admission to graduate school. It just made no
difference at all to my life. And although I have met women who wouldn't
sleep with me, it was never because of a grade I made in college algebra
in fall 1969.

I did learn something about figuring out what's actually important though.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:39:04
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

garycarson wrote:
> My first semester in college I had an option to opt out of college algegra
> but I went ahead and took it anyway -- I'd been out of high school a
> couple of years and thought I could use the review plus thought it would
> be an easy grade.
>
> Pretty early in the course I figured out I didn't need to go to class,
> just show up for the exams. So I did that. I wasn't making an A, a B or
> C, but that was fine with me.
>
> The final was all stuff from the last two weeks of class that I'd never
> seen in my life. We hadn't covered it in high school. I made a zero on
> the final.
>
> F

I was luckier. Linear Algebra. 100% on the mid-term (I'd seen all of
that stuff in high school) and C for the course (um, er...care to guess
my grade on the final?).

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

Date: 24 Dec 2008 07:07:51
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 23 2008 11:39 PM, Kenneth Sloan wrote:

> garycarson wrote:
> > My first semester in college I had an option to opt out of college algegra
> > but I went ahead and took it anyway -- I'd been out of high school a
> > couple of years and thought I could use the review plus thought it would
> > be an easy grade.
> >
> > Pretty early in the course I figured out I didn't need to go to class,
> > just show up for the exams. So I did that. I wasn't making an A, a B or
> > C, but that was fine with me.
> >
> > The final was all stuff from the last two weeks of class that I'd never
> > seen in my life. We hadn't covered it in high school. I made a zero on
> > the final.
> >
> > F
>
> I was luckier. Linear Algebra. 100% on the mid-term (I'd seen all of
> that stuff in high school) and C for the course (um, er...care to guess
> my grade on the final?).
>

I did that in an operations research course in IE.

I was a business school undergrad and had taken an intro to operations
research. The IE department offered an intro to operations research and
because of campus politics neither department could claim the courses
where the same (official university poilicy would have been to eliminate
one of the courses if the departments claimed the course was the same).

So I took the IE course. I'm made an A in the business school course,
they had the saqme math prerequisites, no problem (I thought).

He gave a 10 point extra credit question every exam. Going into the final
my average was 108. (only engineers and jocks think a performance above
100% is possibile) The final was oinly going to cover inventory theory,
which was a single chapter in the book. My car broke down two weeks
before school was out, but no problem, I studied that chapter at home,
knew the material in my sleep.

The book used greek letters in it's notation in that chapter.

It seems that our teacher decided not to use that chapter, and gave his
lectures from notes which used a lot of S's, Z's, X's, etc as notation.

I had no idea what the questions where. I couldn't read the exam. I just
sat there and stared at the wall for about 20 minutes. I got up and
walked to the front fo the class and asked the teacher the ultimate in
stupid questions "If I can't answer any of these questions but just write
down stuff I know about inventory models will I* get some kind of partial
credit".

He looked at me like I was from Mars (which taking an IE course while a
business school student, I kind of was). "No".

"Okay" I went to my seat and stared at the wall some more.

He got curious and came to my desk and asked me what the problem was.

I just said, "I can't answer a fucking one of these things", wadded the
exam up and threw it at him as I walked out.

I got a C.

> --
> Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
> Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
> University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
> Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

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Date: 24 Dec 2008 00:51:10
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:39:04 -0600, Kenneth Sloan
<KennethRSloan@gmail.com > wrote:

>garycarson wrote:
>> My first semester in college I had an option to opt out of college algegra
>> but I went ahead and took it anyway -- I'd been out of high school a
>> couple of years and thought I could use the review plus thought it would
>> be an easy grade.
>>
>> Pretty early in the course I figured out I didn't need to go to class,
>> just show up for the exams. So I did that. I wasn't making an A, a B or
>> C, but that was fine with me.
>>
>> The final was all stuff from the last two weeks of class that I'd never
>> seen in my life. We hadn't covered it in high school. I made a zero on
>> the final.
>>
>> F
>
>I was luckier. Linear Algebra. 100% on the mid-term (I'd seen all of
>that stuff in high school) and C for the course (um, er...care to guess
>my grade on the final?).

Applied Mathematics. 3 exams. A on the first. A on the 2nd. C-
on the final. Course grade: A.

"Huh", you say? Turns out that, for that particular class, the grade
was determined by the best 2 out of the 3 exams.

Date: 24 Dec 2008 08:52:54
From: da pickle
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Pepe Papon"

>>I was luckier. Linear Algebra. 100% on the mid-term (I'd seen all of
>>that stuff in high school) and C for the course (um, er...care to guess
>>my grade on the final?).
>
> Applied Mathematics. 3 exams. A on the first. A on the 2nd. C-
> on the final. Course grade: A.
>
> "Huh", you say? Turns out that, for that particular class, the grade
> was determined by the best 2 out of the 3 exams.

Freshman in electrical engineering ... (engineering being called
"pre-business" at my university) ... the bust-them-out course was "physics"
(much like "Contracts" in law school) ... no one got an A and there were a
couple of B's.

I had always made good grades. I made a 16 on the first exam of three. I
was stunned. I did not think you could make a 16 on an exam. I made a 48
on the second and thought I was going to have to repeat the course. I
really studied and made a 98 on the final and made one of the C's ... so I
did not have to repeat the course.

I decided to do better in my sophomore year and studied hard. I made all
B+'s ... one or two points below in six classes. I did not need to study to
make a B, so I gave that up and no longer bought text books (my roommate was
in all of my classes). I made a few A's but mostly B's but I had a much
better time during those years.

I have a professional engineering license ... back then (I don't know about
today) you were tested on all different disciplines, mechanical, electrical,
engineering economy, petroleum, chemical and many others. The way the tests
worked were that you could haul in all your books and notes (most of us had
a wagon full) and the various tests took a week. Problem was, you did not
really have time to look things up. Anyway, you had to answer a certain
number of questions (minimum and maximum) from each discipline offered and
you had to answer a total number of questions and you could omit ONE and
only one discipline. I omitted electrical engineering ... I never did
understand much about it and I could not answer even one of the electrical
engineering questions ... I did fine on the others and still maintain my
license ... I even have a seal and stuff. Cool.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:57:12
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/20/2008 00:39, Jason Pawloski wrote:

<<<snip >>>>

> I used to know DE and PDE like the back of my hand, even taking some
> graduate level classes in it as an undergrad. Now I can't even remember
> which way the contraction goes in a Lipschitz inequality, but hey you use
> it to prove existence or uniqueness or something.
>

Hmmm....you are kidding, right?

Back when I took classes in these things, I visualized stuff in my head.
There was stuff that I "saw". I can't describe it - it's not just
physical representation of math constructs - there were just things.
It's way past DE or PDE. I used to look at you guys and pity what you
cannot see, I saw things...

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:40:07
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:494CB368.2060008@pacbell.net...

<... >

> Back when I took classes in these things, I visualized stuff in my head.
> There was stuff that I "saw". I can't describe it - it's not just
> physical representation of math constructs - there were just things. It's
> way past DE or PDE. I used to look at you guys and pity what you cannot
> see, I saw things...

I know what you mean.

I was a math major back in the day, and a fairly talented one. I "saw"
ideas that I can't verbalize, and that no one could teach, but if you
couldn't see, you got left in the dust.

Unfortunately for me, I got to a point in my first senior year (of many)
where I realized that my former peers were "seeing" a bunch of shit I just
wasn't, and that I had no future in pure math. That sucked hard.

Which was right about the time my university opened up their CSci
department, and holy shit -- I thought I was seeing before, but that was
nothing compared to CSci. It's just what my head was built for. Not only
that, the difference in career opportunities over the years turned out to be
pretty dramatic.

Jim

Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:58:46
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Very good point about visualization.

Actually, I prefer to call it "insight."

The good math students make connections.

The very poor math student sees nothing but facts to memorize. This type of
student looks at, say, Trigonometry, and sees 25 isolated formulas to
memorize. The good student sees 3 or 4, and can easily derive the others
quickly and efficiently.

Mel
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@cablespeed.com > wrote in message
news:JaidnXS_-s7hINHUnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@cablespeedmi.com...
> "Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:494CB368.2060008@pacbell.net...
>
> <...>
>
>> Back when I took classes in these things, I visualized stuff in my head.
>> There was stuff that I "saw". I can't describe it - it's not just
>> physical representation of math constructs - there were just things. It's
>> way past DE or PDE. I used to look at you guys and pity what you cannot
>> see, I saw things...
>
> I know what you mean.
>
> I was a math major back in the day, and a fairly talented one. I "saw"
> ideas that I can't verbalize, and that no one could teach, but if you
> couldn't see, you got left in the dust.
>
> Unfortunately for me, I got to a point in my first senior year (of many)
> where I realized that my former peers were "seeing" a bunch of shit I just
> wasn't, and that I had no future in pure math. That sucked hard.
>
> Which was right about the time my university opened up their CSci
> department, and holy shit -- I thought I was seeing before, but that was
> nothing compared to CSci. It's just what my head was built for. Not only
> that, the difference in career opportunities over the years turned out to
> be pretty dramatic.
>
> Jim
>
>

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:31:42
From: Jason Pawloski
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 1:57 AM, Bill T wrote:

> On 12/20/2008 00:39, Jason Pawloski wrote:
>
> <<<snip>>>>
>
> > I used to know DE and PDE like the back of my hand, even taking some
> > graduate level classes in it as an undergrad. Now I can't even remember
> > which way the contraction goes in a Lipschitz inequality, but hey you use
> > it to prove existence or uniqueness or something.
> >
>
>
> Hmmm....you are kidding, right?
>
> Back when I took classes in these things, I visualized stuff in my head.
> There was stuff that I "saw". I can't describe it - it's not just
> physical representation of math constructs - there were just things.
> It's way past DE or PDE. I used to look at you guys and pity what you
> cannot see, I saw things...

Yeah poor saps like us cannot visualize things. That inference you made
from one somewhat tongue-and-cheek comment about Lipschitz continuity is
spot on. Hell it took me 24 years to grasp y = ax + b. Thank G*d the world
has geniuses like you to carry the rest of us poor saps around.

--
"Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)

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Date: 20 Dec 2008 09:05:58
From: Raider Fan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 3:31 AM, Jason Pawloski wrote:

Hell it took me 24 years to grasp y = ax + b.

WTF? y = mx + b

______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:35:10
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Raider Fan wrote:
> On Dec 20 2008 3:31 AM, Jason Pawloski wrote:
>
> Hell it took me 24 years to grasp y = ax + b.
>
> WTF? y = mx + b
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
>

No. x(t) = t*x1 + (1-t)x0
y(t) = t*y1 + (1-t)y1

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:44:56
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Jason Pawloski" <a6794a4@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:ukqu16xoje.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 20 2008 1:57 AM, Bill T wrote:
>
>> On 12/20/2008 00:39, Jason Pawloski wrote:
>>
>> <<<snip>>>>
>>
>> > I used to know DE and PDE like the back of my hand, even taking some
>> > graduate level classes in it as an undergrad. Now I can't even remember
>> > which way the contraction goes in a Lipschitz inequality, but hey you
>> > use
>> > it to prove existence or uniqueness or something.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Hmmm....you are kidding, right?
>>
>> Back when I took classes in these things, I visualized stuff in my head.
>> There was stuff that I "saw". I can't describe it - it's not just
>> physical representation of math constructs - there were just things.
>> It's way past DE or PDE. I used to look at you guys and pity what you
>> cannot see, I saw things...
>
> Yeah poor saps like us cannot visualize things. That inference you made
> from one somewhat tongue-and-cheek comment about Lipschitz continuity is
> spot on. Hell it took me 24 years to grasp y = ax + b. Thank G*d the world
> has geniuses like you to carry the rest of us poor saps around.

I don't see a need to get pissy, Jason.

Even before my flame-out, I understood, or "saw" some absolutely perfect,
timelessly beautiful mathematical ideas that not many people get to see, and
I really did feel bad that not everyone could.

"Pity" is probably an overspeak, but it's not an uncommon feeling among
mathematicians.

Jim

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:52:00
From: Lynx
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
> He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
> it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
> why?

In most universities there is little or no flexibility in grading. This
is particularly true in the sciences.

The grading criteria are laid out in the beginning of the course and any
deviation from that for one student would be considered favoritism. If
the class as a whole is doing badly, grades can be raised by scaling on a
bell curve.

So, to answer your question, the student would probably end up getting a
D+. I'm not saying that's how things should be. I'm saying that's how
things normally are.

______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com

Date: 19 Dec 2008 23:43:11
From: Lynx
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Also:

> > Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
C.

This strikes me as unrealistic, or at least extremely unusual. Final
exams normally count for so much of the grade that, if the student had
been working at all, much less than 94% would be needed for a C.

> > Final comes and he gets 89% on the final.

If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.

I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
students.

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 09:49:27
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19 2008 11:43 PM, Lynx wrote:

> Also:
>
> > > Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> C.
>
> This strikes me as unrealistic, or at least extremely unusual. Final
> exams normally count for so much of the grade that, if the student had
> been working at all, much less than 94% would be needed for a C.
>
> > > Final comes and he gets 89% on the final.
>
> If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
> at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
> something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.
>
> I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
> students.

My undergrad classes (engineering) typically graded 10% homework (just
doing it, it didn't have to be correct), 30% midterm, 60% final. If you
got 89% on the final you could probably pull out a C without much effort.

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:08:51
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/19/2008 23:43, Lynx wrote:
> Also:
>
>>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
> C.
>
> This strikes me as unrealistic, or at least extremely unusual. Final
> exams normally count for so much of the grade that, if the student had
> been working at all, much less than 94% would be needed for a C.
>
>>> Final comes and he gets 89% on the final.
>
> If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
> at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
> something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.
>
> I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
> students.
>

As a freshman, I signed up for a Psychology course. After 2 hours
flipping thru the syllabus and the book, I thought the whole thing was
obvious and trivial. I skipped all classes and exams, and just showed
up for the finals. I got 100% and they still gave me just 50% for the
course. Grrrr.

Memo to students: psychology, sociology, broadcast communications -
these are not real areas of study. If you are majoring in any of these
areas, you are better off signing up for Jack-in-the-Box, right now.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 08:17:06
From: Raider Fan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 2:08 AM, Bill T wrote:

>
> As a freshman, I signed up for a Psychology course. After 2 hours
> flipping thru the syllabus and the book, I thought the whole thing was
> obvious and trivial.

Note to future Business students. Psych 101 is the most important class
you'll take. You'll run into things from there in a bunch more of your
classes.

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Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:39:48
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Hmmmmmmm... what a shock, huh!!!

Maybe if you showed up for the first day the prof. would have just maybe
mentioned the grading structure?

Did you really think you could just "miss" all the tests and show up for the
final and that would be your grade? Some profs. do that; most do not.

Seems like you can find the person to blame by looking into the mirror.

Maybe you need to take some of these BS courses. Do they offer Common Sense
101?

Mel

"Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:494c6d3b$0$5518$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> On 12/19/2008 23:43, Lynx wrote:
>> Also:
>>
>>>> Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make
>>>> a
>> C.
>>
>> This strikes me as unrealistic, or at least extremely unusual. Final
>> exams normally count for so much of the grade that, if the student had
>> been working at all, much less than 94% would be needed for a C.
>>
>>>> Final comes and he gets 89% on the final.
>>
>> If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
>> at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
>> something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.
>>
>> I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
>> students.
>>
>
> As a freshman, I signed up for a Psychology course. After 2 hours
> flipping thru the syllabus and the book, I thought the whole thing was
> obvious and trivial. I skipped all classes and exams, and just showed up
> for the finals. I got 100% and they still gave me just 50% for the
> course. Grrrr.
>
> Memo to students: psychology, sociology, broadcast communications - these
> are not real areas of study. If you are majoring in any of these areas,
> you are better off signing up for Jack-in-the-Box, right now.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:10:25
From: Lynx
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

> If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
> at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
> something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.
>
> I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
> students.

If I were a professor and had student that could get an 89% on the final
and still get a D+, I'd realize that I'd badly structured the grading.

I'd probably tell the class, before the final, that for those students
whose grades would be helped by the final, the final would count as a
higher percentage of their grade.

As this would apply to all students, and no students grade would be hurt
by this, I do not think that anyone would have a problem with it.

By contrast, grading one student differently than all the others could
create major dissention, were it known.

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Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:43:18
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Actually, this is pretty rare.

The student who is screwing up on each test is VERY unlikely to ace the
final exam.

UNLESS the final exam is just another test covering the last bit of
material.

The exams I give are quite comprehensive.

Also, the subject matter (Mathematics) does not lend itself to screwing up
on tests and suddenly doing well on the Exam.

Once in awhile, this will happen. Panic sets in and the student gets it
together. But it's rare.

Mel

"Lynx" <a16a9@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:hslu16x8be.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
>> at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
>> something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.
>>
>> I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
>> students.
>
> If I were a professor and had student that could get an 89% on the final
> and still get a D+, I'd realize that I'd badly structured the grading.
>
> I'd probably tell the class, before the final, that for those students
> whose grades would be helped by the final, the final would count as a
> higher percentage of their grade.
>
> As this would apply to all students, and no students grade would be hurt
> by this, I do not think that anyone would have a problem with it.
>
> By contrast, grading one student differently than all the others could
> create major dissention, were it known.
>
> ----
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
>
>

Date: 21 Dec 2008 08:19:35
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 1:43 PM, MZB wrote:

> Actually, this is pretty rare.
>
> The student who is screwing up on each test is VERY unlikely to ace the
> final exam.
>
> UNLESS the final exam is just another test covering the last bit of
> material.

It happens all the time. It happens less often if you require an ID check
for entry into the final exam room.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:27:57
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

garycarson wrote:
>
> It happens all the time. It happens less often if you require an ID check
> for entry into the final exam room.
>

ID checks are easy at my final exams. Every student has a face.

(and...if I don't recognize the face, it won't matter what score they
get on the exam.)

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

Date: 24 Dec 2008 06:52:02
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 23 2008 11:27 PM, Kenneth Sloan wrote:

> garycarson wrote:
> >
> > It happens all the time. It happens less often if you require an ID check
> > for entry into the final exam room.
> >
>
> ID checks are easy at my final exams. Every student has a face.
>
> (and...if I don't recognize the face, it won't matter what score they
> get on the exam.)
>

I only did an ID check one time.

I had a student who was doing very well in the c lass. Top grade in every
test. No class participation, he came to e very c lass, sat in the ba k
o the room and read a book on data structures or something.

In the class role he's listed as a management major. Management majors at
Sam houston State don't read books on data structure.

When I was passing back the third exam I asked him if he'd taken an
equivalent to this class at some other school. He seemed taken aback by
the question, said, "No".

The last week of class I announced there would be an ID check at the final.

He didn't show up for the final. I gave him an F. Nobody complained.

Sometimes just knowing the face doesn't do the job.

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Date: 21 Dec 2008 12:40:36
From: MB_
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

LOL-- some of us actually do know our students!

Mel
"garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote in message
news:nt6226x52v.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 20 2008 1:43 PM, MZB wrote:
>
>> Actually, this is pretty rare.
>>
>> The student who is screwing up on each test is VERY unlikely to ace the
>> final exam.
>>
>> UNLESS the final exam is just another test covering the last bit of
>> material.
>
> It happens all the time. It happens less often if you require an ID check
> for entry into the final exam room.
>
> ------
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
>
>

Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:20:24
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Lynx" <a16a9@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:hslu16x8be.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> If a student gets an 89% on the final and the correct grade, as laid out
>> at the beginning of the course, is in the C-/D+ range, there is probably
>> something very wrong with the way the grading is structured.
>>
>> I'd look at that before looking at making exceptions for individual
>> students.
>
> If I were a professor and had student that could get an 89% on the final
> and still get a D+, I'd realize that I'd badly structured the grading.

Meh.

MB_ got it more right than I did, since we're talking about a "science"
class where curve grading is unlikely to occur. Classes in the hard
sciences usually have absolute performance requirements for grades, and
those are far from arbitrary or badly-structured. They're usually the
result of years of adjustments to real-world students.

The problem here is obviously with the student's preparation for the class,
and that can't be laid at the feet of the professor or the syllabus.

Jim

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:32:11
From: Lynx
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

> MB_ got it more right than I did, since we're talking about a "science"
> class where curve grading is unlikely to occur.

I've been in classes in both the physical sciences and computer sciences
that were scaled up to a bell curve, just because the class was doing so
badly. (Generally, they were scaled on a bell curve so that the average
grade was brought up to a C.)

> Classes in the hard
> sciences usually have absolute performance requirements for grades, and
> those are far from arbitrary or badly-structured.

I agree that the grading is generally not arbitrary or badly structured.
That's why I thought the example was most likely unrealistic.

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Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:56:21
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Lynx" <a16a9@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:rlqu16xrje.ln2@recgroups.com...
>> MB_ got it more right than I did, since we're talking about a "science"
>> class where curve grading is unlikely to occur.
>
> I've been in classes in both the physical sciences and computer sciences
> that were scaled up to a bell curve, just because the class was doing so
> badly. (Generally, they were scaled on a bell curve so that the average
> grade was brought up to a C.)

Never seen such a thing myself -- those have to be far and away exceptional
cases.

>> Classes in the hard
>> sciences usually have absolute performance requirements for grades, and
>> those are far from arbitrary or badly-structured.
>
> I agree that the grading is generally not arbitrary or badly structured.
> That's why I thought the example was most likely unrealistic.

Unrealistic as in the question is internally inconsistent.

It presumes discretionary grading not usually possible in the type of class
specified.

Jim

Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:17:12
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/20/2008 00:10, Lynx wrote:
> If I were a professor and had student that could get an 89% on the final
> and still get a D+, I'd realize that I'd badly structured the grading.

You are too kind. I would have concluded the student is dumb, and
should be directed into a "stupid" major - communication,
kinesthesiology, sociology, or psychology.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 00:22:43
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:494c6f30$0$5529$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> On 12/20/2008 00:10, Lynx wrote:
>> If I were a professor and had student that could get an 89% on the final
>> and still get a D+, I'd realize that I'd badly structured the grading.
>
>
> You are too kind. I would have concluded the student is dumb, and should
> be directed into a "stupid" major - communication, kinesthesiology,
> sociology, or psychology.

Another thing -- this was an "elective" class. Student should have realized
he was in over his head and quit before he couldn't get any of his pro-rated
tuition back out.

Jim

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:34:59
From: MB_
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.

Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that explains
how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 tests
and a tough final examination. There is also a homework and attendance
(relatively small) component.

Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at the end
raise the grade by one notch.

For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% = "C". The
20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
count as half a test.

In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you (or
whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works for ONE
test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final Exam is
not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final, tough!

MB
"mccard" <no_won@no_won.none > wrote in message
news:f1%2l.39$fc3.16@newsfe02.iad...
> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade
> does he get and why?

Date: 24 Dec 2008 11:24:27
From: funky cold medina
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21, 8:12=A0am, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.edu >
wrote:
> On Dec 20 2008 1:23 PM, MZB wrote:
>
>
>
> > Bill:
>
> > Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
> > You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
> > You can add communications. That's another major taken by many athletes=
.
> > Garbage!
>
> > Mel
>
> > "Bill T" <wct...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

> > > As a college prof, do you feel that most of your students actually be=
nefit
> > > from their expensive education? =A0Wouldn't it be better if they go d=
irectly
> > > to Walmart or BurgerKing? =A0I mean, "sociology", "nursing", "music",=
"
> > > kinesthesiology" (formerly PhysEd) =A0- are these really intellectual
> > > pursuits worthy of a real university? =A0I think society would be bet=
ter off
> > > if these students just get jobs at GM and Chrysler (paid by taxpayers=
) and
> > > be piano players and physed teachers as hobbies.
>
> I knew a guy who got a PhD in math and got a really cool job delivering
> mail without even having added points on the mailman exam for veterans
> status.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________=
=A0
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com

A BS in nursing does take a little work. It's a lot of rote
memorization of the language/procedures of the medical world... but
you have to put effort in, not a lot of ways to bullshit your way
through. Those students are under pressure during their clinicals
also (if it's a good program, there are a handful without any clinical
time required at all -- bad). I work with inpatient hospital settings
and have seen a few nursing students crying at the end of the day --
overwhelmed.

BA in political science from Indiana University here. Parents wanted
me to go to law school. It was a waste of time. I got the degree and
did well, but by then I realized I had no intention of going for a JD
and needed to experience a little life. Classes were a breeze too
(except for a couple history courses). The good news is: I got laid
(plural). You'll have to take my word for it. :)

Was going to say... I worked as a casual at the Post Office while in
school. There were about 8 casuals (people brought on to work busy
periods and holidays). Of those, two were PhDs (not math) who were
out of work. I remember one drove a beat up Datsun B210. Nice guy
too. I felt bad for him.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 19:21:30
From: Tim Norfolk
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21, 11:12=EF=BF=BDam, "garycarson" <garycar...@alumni.northwestern.e=
du >
wrote:
> On Dec 20 2008 1:23 PM, MZB wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bill:
>
> > Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
> > You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
> > You can add communications. That's another major taken by many athletes=
.
> > Garbage!
>
> > Mel
>
> > "Bill T" <wct...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> >news:494c5ceb$0$5545$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> > > On 12/19/2008 22:34, MB_ wrote:
> > >> OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professo=
r.
>
> > >> Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that
> > >> explains
> > >> how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 =
tests
> > >> and a tough final examination. There is also a =EF=BF=BDhomework and=
attendance
> > >> (relatively small) component.
>
> > >> Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or mo=
re
> > >> points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at=
the
> > >> end
> > >> raise the grade by one notch.
>
> > >> For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% =3D "C". =
The
> > >> 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low gr=
ade
> > >> count as half a test.
>
> > >> In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so =
you
> > >> (or
> > >> whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works =
for
> > >> ONE
> > >> test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final E=
xam
> > >> is
> > >> not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final, tough=
!
>
> > > As a college prof, do you feel that most of your students actually be=
nefit
> > > from their expensive education? =EF=BF=BDWouldn't it be better if the=
y go directly
> > > to Walmart or BurgerKing? =EF=BF=BDI mean, "sociology", "nursing", "m=
usic", "
> > > kinesthesiology" (formerly PhysEd) =EF=BF=BD- are these really intell=
ectual
> > > pursuits worthy of a real university? =EF=BF=BDI think society would =
be better off
> > > if these students just get jobs at GM and Chrysler (paid by taxpayers=
) and
> > > be piano players and physed teachers as hobbies.
>
> I knew a guy who got a PhD in math and got a really cool job delivering
> mail without even having added points on the mailman exam for veterans
> status.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________=
=EF=BF=BD
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com- Hide quoted te=
xt -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And the number of people getting Ph.D.'s in math in the US is about
the same number as MLB rookies. Only 20% of the former are US
citizens, and demand is growing. Anecdotal evidence is not worth much
in prediction, otherwise none of us would ever raise AA, would we?

Date: 21 Dec 2008 07:31:42
From: Tim Norfolk
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20, 1:59=EF=BF=BDam, Bill T <wct...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> On 12/19/2008 22:34, MB_ wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.
>
> > Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that expla=
ins
> > how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 tes=
ts
> > and a tough final examination. There is also a =EF=BF=BDhomework and at=
tendance
> > (relatively small) component.
>
> > Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
> > points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at th=
e end
> > raise the grade by one notch.
>
> > For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% =3D "C". The
> > 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
> > count as half a test.
>
> > In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you=
(or
> > whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works for=
ONE
> > test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final Exam=
is
> > not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final, tough!
>
> As a college prof, do you feel that most of your students actually
> benefit from their expensive education? =EF=BF=BDWouldn't it be better if=
they
> go directly to Walmart or BurgerKing? =EF=BF=BDI mean, "sociology", "nurs=
ing",
> "music", " kinesthesiology" (formerly PhysEd) =EF=BF=BD- are these really
> intellectual pursuits worthy of a real university? =EF=BF=BDI think socie=
ty
> would be better off if these students just get jobs at GM and Chrysler
> (paid by taxpayers) and be piano players and physed teachers as hobbies.-=
Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree with you. Our money would better be spent on 'elite' students.
However, that is anathema to the American cultural idea that 'anyone
can do anything'. Consequently, we get watered-down degrees.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 09:36:21
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Wow, a whole bunch of really thoughtful answers, I must have posted to the
wrong group. Oh, mrbookworm, lol, right group after all.

MB_ The course structure you describe sounds basically like what the prof
in the class I am describing set up. My only complaint is that if an
undergrad student comes to an "aha" moment in a young career (enough to get
an 89% on a comprehensive final in a science ) and has demonstrated the
willingness to attend a special tutoring session you give, don't you think
its worth taking a chance and bump the grade to a C? If the guy switches
majors and becomes a member of your professional community you have made a
good decision. If he takes another class or upper level class in the same
science and bombs, so be it.

Thanks for your considered opinion.

"MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net > wrote in message
news:tm03l.75548$zQ3.22457@newsfe12.iad...
> OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.
>
> Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that explains
> how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 tests
> and a tough final examination. There is also a homework and attendance
> (relatively small) component.
>
> Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
> points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at the
> end raise the grade by one notch.
>
> For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% = "C". The
> 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
> count as half a test.
>
> In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you
> (or whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works
> for ONE test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final
> Exam is not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final,
> tough!
>
> MB
> "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none> wrote in message
> news:f1%2l.39$fc3.16@newsfe02.iad...
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
>> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
>> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What
>> grade does he get and why?
>
>

Date: 23 Dec 2008 22:18:30
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

mccard wrote:
> Wow, a whole bunch of really thoughtful answers, I must have posted to
> the wrong group. Oh, mrbookworm, lol, right group after all.
>
> MB_ The course structure you describe sounds basically like what the
> prof in the class I am describing set up. My only complaint is that if
> an undergrad student comes to an "aha" moment in a young career (enough
> to get an 89% on a comprehensive final in a science ) and has
> demonstrated the willingness to attend a special tutoring session you
> give, don't you think its worth taking a chance and bump the grade to a
> C? If the guy switches majors and becomes a member of your professional
> community you have made a good decision. If he takes another class or
> upper level class in the same science and bombs, so be it.
>

In the last case - you have failed in your responsibility to the
professor and the students in the upper level class.

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/

Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:36:14
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Well, if his crappy average is due to ONE bad test, then my policy works
fine,

If he has a few bad tests and then gets his AHA moment, then he has saved
his failing grade anyway. I'm not going to ignore say 3 bad tests in lieu of
1 good one.

I know that's not the answer you'd like to hear.

Let me also add one comment. Someone previously posted about avoiding
"favoritism."

I do tell my students that I reserve the right to adjust a grade for
extraordinary/compelling circumstances. I have had a few such situations in
my career.

I had a student whose house burned down a few days before the final
examination. He and his family were in dire straits. He was a straight- "A"
student and flunked the Exam. I gave him an Incomplete and let him take the
Exam a month later. He got an "A." I would have been willing, in fact, to
totally forget the Exam and give him an "A" (his test average was 98% prior
to the Exam.). But the student only asked if he could retake the Exam. That
is one of the only times I've ever allowed a retake.

I had another student fighting cancer. I made quite a few allowances for
her.

In other words, there is room to adjust grades. I am willing to withstand
accusations of favortism when I can justify the circumstances as "different"
or "unusual" or "compelling."

I don't consider your scenario to be that compelling.

What about the student that is a total screwoff, averages 45%, does no work,
and finally gets his/her act together for the Exam. Let's say the Exam
raises the student from an "F" to a low "D." That is probably the grade the
student earned.

Mel

"mccard" <no_won@no_won.none > wrote in message
news:ci83l.72034$uS1.1048@newsfe19.iad...
> Wow, a whole bunch of really thoughtful answers, I must have posted to the
> wrong group. Oh, mrbookworm, lol, right group after all.
>
> MB_ The course structure you describe sounds basically like what the prof
> in the class I am describing set up. My only complaint is that if an
> undergrad student comes to an "aha" moment in a young career (enough to
> get an 89% on a comprehensive final in a science ) and has demonstrated
> the willingness to attend a special tutoring session you give, don't you
> think its worth taking a chance and bump the grade to a C? If the guy
> switches majors and becomes a member of your professional community you
> have made a good decision. If he takes another class or upper level class
> in the same science and bombs, so be it.
>
> Thanks for your considered opinion.
>
>
> "MB_" <mel@prodigy.invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:tm03l.75548$zQ3.22457@newsfe12.iad...
>> OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.
>>
>> Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that
>> explains how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average
>> on 3 tests and a tough final examination. There is also a homework and
>> attendance (relatively small) component.
>>
>> Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
>> points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at the
>> end raise the grade by one notch.
>>
>> For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% = "C". The
>> 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
>> count as half a test.
>>
>> In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you
>> (or whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works
>> for ONE test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The
>> Final Exam is not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the
>> final, tough!
>>
>> MB
>> "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none> wrote in message
>> news:f1%2l.39$fc3.16@newsfe02.iad...
>>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>>> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
>>> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
>>> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What
>>> grade does he get and why?
>>
>>
>

Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:42:29
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:36:14 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net >
wrote:

>What about the student that is a total screwoff, averages 45%, does no work,
>and finally gets his/her act together for the Exam. Let's say the Exam
>raises the student from an "F" to a low "D." That is probably the grade the
>student earned.

In a sense, I wish there were more profs who graded like that. It
would make an A worth something. Grade inflation has really deflated
the value of high grades.

Date: 21 Dec 2008 09:47:04
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 10:42 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:36:14 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net>
> wrote:
>
> >What about the student that is a total screwoff, averages 45%, does no
work,
> >and finally gets his/her act together for the Exam. Let's say the Exam
> >raises the student from an "F" to a low "D." That is probably the grade
the
> >student earned.
>
> In a sense, I wish there were more profs who graded like that. It
> would make an A worth something. Grade inflation has really deflated
> the value of high grades.

My undergrad professors (keep in mind that I was an engineering student
and we had a very small department) never graded on a curve. The grades
were well defined (70%, 80%, 90% etc) and almost everybody got an A (and
our tests were very very hard. a 4 hour final usually had 3 questions that
took about 30 pages of work to complete). A few got B's. Anybody that
was getting Cs was encouraged to drop out very early.

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

----
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com

Date: 21 Dec 2008 10:24:17
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 12:47 PM, brewmaster wrote:

> On Dec 20 2008 10:42 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:36:14 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >What about the student that is a total screwoff, averages 45%, does no
> work,
> > >and finally gets his/her act together for the Exam. Let's say the Exam
> > >raises the student from an "F" to a low "D." That is probably the grade
> the
> > >student earned.
> >
> > In a sense, I wish there were more profs who graded like that. It
> > would make an A worth something. Grade inflation has really deflated
> > the value of high grades.
>
> My undergrad professors (keep in mind that I was an engineering student
> and we had a very small department) never graded on a curve. The grades
> were well defined (70%, 80%, 90% etc) and almost everybody got an A (and
> our tests were very very hard. a 4 hour final usually had 3 questions that
> took about 30 pages of work to complete). A few got B's. Anybody that
> was getting Cs was encouraged to drop out very early.
>

When I was a first year grad student at LSU the fledging computer science
department offered an upper level undergrad control theory course for the
first time. I was in quantitative business analysis and enrolled. There
were nine students in the class -- three CS undergrads, 2 grad students
from QBA, 2 grad students from math, and 2 grad students from EE.

When he posted grades I saw 3 A's and 6 B's, I was one of the B's. I had
been a paper grader for the teacher when I'd been an undergrad and I knew
him pretty well. I asked him what the deal was with my grade (I pretty
much made 100 on every assignment).

"Those 3 kids worked their butts off and not a one of the grad students
did a lick of work.", was his explianation.

_____________________________________________________________________
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com

Date: 21 Dec 2008 11:07:09
From: brewmaster
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 10:24 AM, garycarson wrote:

> On Dec 21 2008 12:47 PM, brewmaster wrote:
>
> > On Dec 20 2008 10:42 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:36:14 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >What about the student that is a total screwoff, averages 45%, does no
> > work,
> > > >and finally gets his/her act together for the Exam. Let's say the Exam
> > > >raises the student from an "F" to a low "D." That is probably the grade
> > the
> > > >student earned.
> > >
> > > In a sense, I wish there were more profs who graded like that. It
> > > would make an A worth something. Grade inflation has really deflated
> > > the value of high grades.
> >
> > My undergrad professors (keep in mind that I was an engineering student
> > and we had a very small department) never graded on a curve. The grades
> > were well defined (70%, 80%, 90% etc) and almost everybody got an A (and
> > our tests were very very hard. a 4 hour final usually had 3 questions that
> > took about 30 pages of work to complete). A few got B's. Anybody that
> > was getting Cs was encouraged to drop out very early.
> >
>
>
> When I was a first year grad student at LSU the fledging computer science
> department offered an upper level undergrad control theory course for the
> first time. I was in quantitative business analysis and enrolled. There
> were nine students in the class -- three CS undergrads, 2 grad students
> from QBA, 2 grad students from math, and 2 grad students from EE.
>
> When he posted grades I saw 3 A's and 6 B's, I was one of the B's. I had
> been a paper grader for the teacher when I'd been an undergrad and I knew
> him pretty well. I asked him what the deal was with my grade (I pretty
> much made 100 on every assignment).
>
> "Those 3 kids worked their butts off and not a one of the grad students
> did a lick of work.", was his explianation.

One year my father had a student that was so far and away better than most
of his other students, that the only A he gave that year was to this one
guy. He said nobody else measured up and it wasn't right to give anyone
who wasn't as good an A. He was a really really tough grader. I have all
of his student evaluations. They all hated him. Funny thing though,
Chris (Jesus) Ferguson had him for a class, and remembers him, but doesn't
remember the grade he got.

Brew
--
Email me here: http://tinymail.me/k4r2nk

-----
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Date: 21 Dec 2008 11:48:53
From: mccard
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"brewmaster" <a163b@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:o1c226xiev.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 20 2008 10:42 AM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:36:14 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >What about the student that is a total screwoff, averages 45%, does no
> work,
>> >and finally gets his/her act together for the Exam. Let's say the Exam
>> >raises the student from an "F" to a low "D." That is probably the grade
> the
>> >student earned.
>>
>> In a sense, I wish there were more profs who graded like that. It
>> would make an A worth something. Grade inflation has really deflated
>> the value of high grades.
>
> My undergrad professors (keep in mind that I was an engineering student
> and we had a very small department) never graded on a curve. The grades
> were well defined (70%, 80%, 90% etc) and almost everybody got an A (and
> our tests were very very hard. a 4 hour final usually had 3 questions that
> took about 30 pages of work to complete). A few got B's. Anybody that
> was getting Cs was encouraged to drop out very early.
>
>
>
Oh, engineering. Sometime I will show you my drawings of a small city set
up so that children can truly walk up hill to school both ways. Very energy
saving design, green before its time :)

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:59:14
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/19/2008 22:34, MB_ wrote:
> OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.
>
> Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that explains
> how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 tests
> and a tough final examination. There is also a homework and attendance
> (relatively small) component.
>
> Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
> points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at the end
> raise the grade by one notch.
>
> For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% = "C". The
> 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
> count as half a test.
>
> In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you (or
> whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works for ONE
> test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final Exam is
> not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final, tough!
>

As a college prof, do you feel that most of your students actually
benefit from their expensive education? Wouldn't it be better if they
go directly to Walmart or BurgerKing? I mean, "sociology", "nursing",
"music", " kinesthesiology" (formerly PhysEd) - are these really
intellectual pursuits worthy of a real university? I think society
would be better off if these students just get jobs at GM and Chrysler
(paid by taxpayers) and be piano players and physed teachers as hobbies.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:23:10
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Bill:

Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
You can add communications. That's another major taken by many athletes.
Garbage!

Mel

"Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:494c5ceb$0$5545$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> On 12/19/2008 22:34, MB_ wrote:
>> OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.
>>
>> Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that
>> explains
>> how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 tests
>> and a tough final examination. There is also a homework and attendance
>> (relatively small) component.
>>
>> Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
>> points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at the
>> end
>> raise the grade by one notch.
>>
>> For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% = "C". The
>> 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
>> count as half a test.
>>
>> In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you
>> (or
>> whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works for
>> ONE
>> test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final Exam
>> is
>> not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final, tough!
>>
>
>
> As a college prof, do you feel that most of your students actually benefit
> from their expensive education? Wouldn't it be better if they go directly
> to Walmart or BurgerKing? I mean, "sociology", "nursing", "music", "
> kinesthesiology" (formerly PhysEd) - are these really intellectual
> pursuits worthy of a real university? I think society would be better off
> if these students just get jobs at GM and Chrysler (paid by taxpayers) and
> be piano players and physed teachers as hobbies.
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 21 Dec 2008 16:45:23
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/20/2008 10:23, MZB wrote:
> Bill:
>
> Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
> You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
> You can add communications. That's another major taken by many athletes.
> Garbage!
>

I should clarify: nursing is a valuable vocation and these days is also
a highly-paid job-for-life. I just don't think it is something that
requires 4 years of college. An old girlfriend of mine was doing a
master's in nursing. Her courses included crap like "cultural
understanding" and "dumbed-down stats" (not its real name).

Date: 21 Dec 2008 20:29:22
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 21 2008 7:45 PM, Bill T wrote:

> On 12/20/2008 10:23, MZB wrote:
> > Bill:
> >
> > Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
> > You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
> > You can add communications. That's another major taken by many athletes.
> > Garbage!
> >
>
> I should clarify: nursing is a valuable vocation and these days is also
> a highly-paid job-for-life. I just don't think it is something that
> requires 4 years of college.

A two year degree is sufficient for an RN.

Did you not know that?

An old girlfriend of mine was doing a
> master's in nursing. Her courses included crap like "cultural
> understanding" and "dumbed-down stats" (not its real name).

The first course I taught was a sophomore level stat methods course for
business school undergrads.

Our department also taught a graduate course in Stat Methods for Social
Welfare Students as a service course for MSW students.

MSW students who had a stat course as an undergrad were exempted from the
graduate state methods course. It was taught by our department head.

A graduating senior wanted to take my course. She was going to enter the
MSW program in the fall. She needed my permission and my department heads
permission to take my course because she didn't have the freshman math
prerequisites. My department head told her, "Don't take his course, wait
until the fall and take my course". She expfressed concern that she might
make a C and couldn't make a C as a graduate student. "Don't worry about
that. Just wait and take the course that's designed for someone with your
background and interests". She insisted. We gave her permission.

She made an F. A clearcut F. I consulted with my department head about
what to do (It was the first time I'd ever taught a course). He said, "To
hell with her, I told her and she didn't want to listen."

She didn't just need that course to get the graduate course waived. She
needed it (as an elective) to graduate.

--------
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com

Date: 22 Dec 2008 03:28:10
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Geezzzz Gary:

She probably TRIED.

Give her a "C"

Mel
"garycarson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu > wrote in message
news:2mh326xm13.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 21 2008 7:45 PM, Bill T wrote:
>
>> On 12/20/2008 10:23, MZB wrote:
>> > Bill:
>> >
>> > Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
>> > You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
>> > You can add communications. That's another major taken by many
>> > athletes.
>> > Garbage!
>> >
>>
>> I should clarify: nursing is a valuable vocation and these days is also
>> a highly-paid job-for-life. I just don't think it is something that
>> requires 4 years of college.
>
> A two year degree is sufficient for an RN.
>
> Did you not know that?
>
>
> An old girlfriend of mine was doing a
>> master's in nursing. Her courses included crap like "cultural
>> understanding" and "dumbed-down stats" (not its real name).
>
> The first course I taught was a sophomore level stat methods course for
> business school undergrads.
>
> Our department also taught a graduate course in Stat Methods for Social
> Welfare Students as a service course for MSW students.
>
> MSW students who had a stat course as an undergrad were exempted from the
> graduate state methods course. It was taught by our department head.
>
> A graduating senior wanted to take my course. She was going to enter the
> MSW program in the fall. She needed my permission and my department heads
> permission to take my course because she didn't have the freshman math
> prerequisites. My department head told her, "Don't take his course, wait
> until the fall and take my course". She expfressed concern that she might
> make a C and couldn't make a C as a graduate student. "Don't worry about
> that. Just wait and take the course that's designed for someone with your
> background and interests". She insisted. We gave her permission.
>
> She made an F. A clearcut F. I consulted with my department head about
> what to do (It was the first time I'd ever taught a course). He said, "To
> hell with her, I told her and she didn't want to listen."
>
> She didn't just need that course to get the graduate course waived. She
> needed it (as an elective) to graduate.
>
> --------
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
>
>

Date: 21 Dec 2008 20:56:45
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/21/2008 20:29, garycarson wrote:

>
> A two year degree is sufficient for an RN.
>
> Did you not know that?

I do, and I think a 2-year heavily clinical course is all that's
required. When I am in a hospital dying of some esoteric disease, or
just old age, I want the nurse to change my diapers, spoon-feed me goop,
and recognize that a blood pressure reading of 80/75 is a mechanical
malfunction. Some common sense, and big boobs, don't hurt.

In the old days, ICU and ER nurses actually have to know some algebra
(or at least write the formulas on their name-tags) to calculate drug
infusion rates. That was obviously dangerous and now the machines do
all the calculations.

Unfortunately, there is a big push by the national nursing organizations
to have all new nurses get 4-year bachelor's degrees. In addition, they
want Doctorates of Nursing given to advanced-practice nurses. Can't
blame them really. Pharmacists are now "Doctors of Pharmacology", and
lawyers are now "Doctors of Jurisprudence". Pretty soon we will be
calling all high-school graduates "Doctors of GED".

Date: 21 Dec 2008 08:12:50
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 1:23 PM, MZB wrote:

> Bill:
>
> Actually, I agree with you. There are way too many BS majors.
> You included nursing, but that actually does lead to well-paying jobs.
> You can add communications. That's another major taken by many athletes.
> Garbage!
>
> Mel
>
>
> "Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:494c5ceb$0$5545$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> > On 12/19/2008 22:34, MB_ wrote:
> >> OK Mccard, I'll answer this because I actually AM a college professor.
> >>
> >> Here's what I actually do. I have a clearly defined syllabus that
> >> explains
> >> how grades are calculated. It basically amounts to the average on 3 tests
> >> and a tough final examination. There is also a homework and attendance
> >> (relatively small) component.
> >>
> >> Anyway, here's what I do: If a student has ONE test that is 20 or more
> >> points BELOW each of the other tests, then I count everything and at the
> >> end
> >> raise the grade by one notch.
> >>
> >> For example, if the student got 60-80-80-80, that is a 75% = "C". The
> >> 20-point rule will result in a "C+." In effect, it makes that low grade
> >> count as half a test.
> >>
> >> In the case you cited, I'm not sure of the specific test grades, so you
> >> (or
> >> whoever) may or may not get that benefit. Remember, this only works for
> >> ONE
> >> test that is 20 or more points below EACH of the others. The Final Exam
> >> is
> >> not eligible for this treatment, so if you screw up the final, tough!
> >>
> >
> >
> > As a college prof, do you feel that most of your students actually benefit
> > from their expensive education? Wouldn't it be better if they go directly
> > to Walmart or BurgerKing? I mean, "sociology", "nursing", "music", "
> > kinesthesiology" (formerly PhysEd) - are these really intellectual
> > pursuits worthy of a real university? I think society would be better off
> > if these students just get jobs at GM and Chrysler (paid by taxpayers) and
> > be piano players and physed teachers as hobbies.
> >

I knew a guy who got a PhD in math and got a really cool job delivering
mail without even having added points on the mailman exam for veterans
status.

________________________________________________________________________
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Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:09:25
From: johnny_t
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

mccard wrote:
> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What
> grade does he get and why?

Demonstration of knowledge, and participation in class are two entirely
different things.

I had classes that solely through "participation" I had passed, even
though I learned little.

I had a Piano class where I was absent for 69 out of 90 days. But i
aced every single one of the tests, and I was in the right piano class
based on pre-class ability. I got a "B". Based on pre-class
requirements I had clearly failed. Since I was the only student in the
class to ace all tests, and the class was all about performance, he felt
he could in the end only knock me down a letter grade. I thought I
deserved an "A".

I think you should not be able to fail if you actually learn what is
needed to be learned in a class. But I also think you should not be
able to get an A without participating. And ultimately you should not
be able to pass without learning what is needed to be learned in a class.

So you shouldn't be able to fail solely based on participation (unless
it is a participation based class, like drama, journal or something like
that). But you can't get an "A" based solely on learning the topic
(unless is ALL about learning the topic), in which case participation is
meaningless and should drop to a very insignificant part of the score.
Like Math or Science. You either know it and can demonstrate it, or you
can't. And that is what you grade should be based on.

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:21:16
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/19/2008 22:09, johnny_t wrote:
>
> Demonstration of knowledge, and participation in class are two entirely
> different things.

True. In college I found it hard to get up before 1 PM, and I missed
most classes.
>
> I had classes that solely through "participation" I had passed, even
> though I learned little.
>
> I had a Piano class where I was absent for 69 out of 90 days. But i aced
> every single one of the tests, and I was in the right piano class based
> on pre-class ability. I got a "B". Based on pre-class requirements I had
> clearly failed. Since I was the only student in the class to ace all
> tests, and the class was all about performance, he felt he could in the
> end only knock me down a letter grade. I thought I deserved an "A".

How the hell did "piano" get to be a college course? You can get a few
dollars thrown into your tip jar, but you shouldn't get a college degree
for it.

Why not just give Britney a PhD right now?

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:03:32
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/19/2008 21:03, mccard wrote:
> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade
> does he get and why?

C+. If he needs special tutoring to get 89%, he is not very bright. He
should be steered to a major in broadcast communications or education.
Plus, nobody will ever give a shit what he gets in a 2nd year course.

A lot of people who go to college are basically stupid. Unfortunately,
a college degree is required to even manage the local car wash. This is
a tremendous waste of youthful time and energy, but the politically
correct mantra is that everyone should and can get a college degree.

I spent my college years inventing water pipes, playing pool, trying to
get laid, and scoring on Ms. PacMan. Really, college is wasted on most
people.

Date: 23 Dec 2008 07:03:52
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 12:03 AM, Bill T wrote:

> On 12/19/2008 21:03, mccard wrote:
> > You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> > class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
> > make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
> > finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade
> > does he get and why?
>
>
> C+. If he needs special tutoring to get 89%, he is not very bright. He
> should be steered to a major in broadcast communications or education.
> Plus, nobody will ever give a shit what he gets in a 2nd year course.
>
> A lot of people who go to college are basically stupid. Unfortunately,
> a college degree is required to even manage the local car wash. This is
> a tremendous waste of youthful time and energy, but the politically
> correct mantra is that everyone should and can get a college degree.
>
> I spent my college years inventing water pipes, playing pool, trying to
> get laid, and scoring on Ms. PacMan. Really, college is wasted on most
> people.

WAIT!!! I spent my last 40 years doing that !!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

--------
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Date: 21 Dec 2008 07:34:51
From: Tim Norfolk
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20, 4:37=EF=BF=BDam, "Jason Pawloski" <a679...@webnntp.invalid > wrot=
e:
> On Dec 20 2008 12:47 AM, Bill T wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12/19/2008 23:19, Gareth Erskine-Jones wrote:
>
> > > In the UK the education system has always tended to be biased towards
> > > academic study and qualification (meaning the more abstract rather
> > > than practical subjects). This starts quite early - e.g. by the time =
a
> > > child is 14 years old, it's pretty easy to see if he's going to do
> > > better in group theory or fixing cars. Unfortunately (although this
> > > has got better recently) the practical / vocational subjects have bee=
n
> > > treated as inferior, meaning that policy has aimed at increasing the
> > > number of children into academic further =EF=BF=BDeducation, when rea=
lly a lot
> > > would benefit from moving into vocational training earlier. =EF=BF=BD=
I suppose
> > > this is because the decisions are made by people with university
> > > degrees rather than plumbers.
>
> > In general, a plumber is more valuable to society than a
> > group-theoretician. =EF=BF=BDWe have to stop overvaluing academic pursu=
its over
> > vocational jobs. (I got 100% in my group theory class.)
>
> You actually had a class only on group theory without rings and fields?
> Was it an elective course or was it a part of a math curriculum?
>
> I've seen many, many math curricula and never once seen a class only on
> groups.
>
> My groups, rings, and fields professor was German through college and the=
n
> emmigrated to the US. He said in his last year of high school he had an
> introductory course on group theory, although he was quick to emphasize i=
t
> was not a college-level course. I was a junior in college, I think, when =
I
> took my groups, rings and fields class. America is doomed because we can'=
t
> keep up with countries that actually try to teach their kids math.
>
> --
> "Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. =EF=BF=BDHe's smart also." - Pa=
ul
> Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)
>
> _______________________________________________________________________=
=EF=BF=BD
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more..www.recgroups.com- Hide q=
uoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I did, in a British university in the 1970's. That was followed by
separate courses in group representations and Galois fields. I didn't
get ring theory until graduate school.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:45:12
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

So, the big question is: Did you get laid?

Mel
"Bill T" <wctom1@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:494c4fde$0$5520$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> On 12/19/2008 21:03, mccard wrote:
>> You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>> class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
>> make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
>> finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade
>> does he get and why?
>
>
> C+. If he needs special tutoring to get 89%, he is not very bright. He
> should be steered to a major in broadcast communications or education.
> Plus, nobody will ever give a shit what he gets in a 2nd year course.
>
> A lot of people who go to college are basically stupid. Unfortunately, a
> college degree is required to even manage the local car wash. This is a
> tremendous waste of youthful time and energy, but the politically correct
> mantra is that everyone should and can get a college degree.
>
> I spent my college years inventing water pipes, playing pool, trying to
> get laid, and scoring on Ms. PacMan. Really, college is wasted on most
> people.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:33:30
From: Jason Pawloski
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19 2008 11:03 PM, Bill T wrote:

> On 12/19/2008 21:03, mccard wrote:
> > You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
> > class. Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to
> > make a C. He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's
> > finally getting it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade
> > does he get and why?
>
>
> C+. If he needs special tutoring to get 89%, he is not very bright. He
> should be steered to a major in broadcast communications or education.
> Plus, nobody will ever give a shit what he gets in a 2nd year course.

This post, especially paragraph above, speaks volumes about your arrogance
and general myopia.

>
> A lot of people who go to college are basically stupid. Unfortunately,
> a college degree is required to even manage the local car wash. This is
> a tremendous waste of youthful time and energy, but the politically
> correct mantra is that everyone should and can get a college degree.
>
> I spent my college years inventing water pipes, playing pool, trying to
> get laid, and scoring on Ms. PacMan. Really, college is wasted on most
> people.

--
"Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)

------
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Date: 20 Dec 2008 08:39:58
From: Travel
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Bill T Usenet Poster
wctom1@pacbell.net Post #7 of 31 (4 views) Copy Shortcut Dec 20,
2008, 1:21 AM
Re: Question for the Professor Reply

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

On 12/19/2008 22:09, johnny_t wrote:
>
> Demonstration of knowledge, and participation in class are two
entirely
> different things.

True. In college I found it hard to get up before 1 PM, and I missed
most classes.
>
> I had classes that solely through "participation" I had passed, even
> though I learned little.
>
> I had a Piano class where I was absent for 69 out of 90 days. But i
aced
> every single one of the tests, and I was in the right piano class
based
> on pre-class ability. I got a "B". Based on pre-class requirements I
had
> clearly failed. Since I was the only student in the class to ace all
> tests, and the class was all about performance, he felt he could in
the
> end only knock me down a letter grade. I thought I deserved an "A".

How the hell did "piano" get to be a college course? You can get a few
dollars thrown into your tip jar, but you shouldn't get a college
degree
for it.

.......................................................................
................

He thinks band camp is college.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
Visit www.pokermagazine.com

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:55:21
From: funky cold medina
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 19, 10:03=A0pm, Bill T <wct...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> On 12/19/2008 21:03, mccard wrote:
>
> A lot of people who go to college are basically stupid. =A0Unfortunately,
> a college degree is required to even manage the local car wash. =A0This i=
s
> a tremendous waste of youthful time and energy, but the politically
> correct mantra is that everyone should and can get a college degree.
>
> I spent my college years inventing water pipes, playing pool, trying to
> get laid, and scoring on Ms. PacMan. =A0Really, college is wasted on most
> people.

Yep. College/University as an avenue to critical thinking, broader
perspective... some sort of rigorous exercise in learning, seems to be
fading. Most people I know went to college, pushed by their parents
and cultural standards of 'success', to get their ticket punched so
they can land a white-collar job.

I also see a distinct gentrification evolving in that the trades
(carpenters, mechanics, etc.) are looked down on.

Not good.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 07:19:10
From: Gareth Erskine-Jones
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:55:21 -0800 (PST), funky cold medina
<kellywong74@yahoo.com > wrote:

>On Dec 19, 10:03 pm, Bill T <wct...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> On 12/19/2008 21:03, mccard wrote:
>>
>> A lot of people who go to college are basically stupid. Unfortunately,
>> a college degree is required to even manage the local car wash. This is
>> a tremendous waste of youthful time and energy, but the politically
>> correct mantra is that everyone should and can get a college degree.
>>
>> I spent my college years inventing water pipes, playing pool, trying to
>> get laid, and scoring on Ms. PacMan. Really, college is wasted on most
>> people.
>
>Yep. College/University as an avenue to critical thinking, broader
>perspective... some sort of rigorous exercise in learning, seems to be
>fading. Most people I know went to college, pushed by their parents
>and cultural standards of 'success', to get their ticket punched so
>they can land a white-collar job.
>
>I also see a distinct gentrification evolving in that the trades
>(carpenters, mechanics, etc.) are looked down on.

In the UK the education system has always tended to be biased towards
academic study and qualification (meaning the more abstract rather
than practical subjects). This starts quite early - e.g. by the time a
child is 14 years old, it's pretty easy to see if he's going to do
better in group theory or fixing cars. Unfortunately (although this
has got better recently) the practical / vocational subjects have been
treated as inferior, meaning that policy has aimed at increasing the
number of children into academic further education, when really a lot
would benefit from moving into vocational training earlier. I suppose
this is because the decisions are made by people with university
degrees rather than plumbers.

GEJ
>
>Not good.

Date: 19 Dec 2008 23:47:35
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/19/2008 23:19, Gareth Erskine-Jones wrote:
>
> In the UK the education system has always tended to be biased towards
> academic study and qualification (meaning the more abstract rather
> than practical subjects). This starts quite early - e.g. by the time a
> child is 14 years old, it's pretty easy to see if he's going to do
> better in group theory or fixing cars. Unfortunately (although this
> has got better recently) the practical / vocational subjects have been
> treated as inferior, meaning that policy has aimed at increasing the
> number of children into academic further education, when really a lot
> would benefit from moving into vocational training earlier. I suppose
> this is because the decisions are made by people with university
> degrees rather than plumbers.

In general, a plumber is more valuable to society than a
group-theoretician. We have to stop overvaluing academic pursuits over
vocational jobs. (I got 100% in my group theory class.)

There is simple snobbery at work. In the US a social worker (typically
a low-IQ college grad) is considered socially superior to a worker like
a car mechanic or electrician.

There is much skill and dedication in a job well-done, and we really
should value the training and smarts of those engaged in the trades.

Date: 20 Dec 2008 10:31:27
From: Gareth Erskine-Jones
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:47:35 -0800, Bill T <wctom1@pacbell.net > wrote:

>On 12/19/2008 23:19, Gareth Erskine-Jones wrote:
>>
>> In the UK the education system has always tended to be biased towards
>> academic study and qualification (meaning the more abstract rather
>> than practical subjects). This starts quite early - e.g. by the time a
>> child is 14 years old, it's pretty easy to see if he's going to do
>> better in group theory or fixing cars. Unfortunately (although this
>> has got better recently) the practical / vocational subjects have been
>> treated as inferior, meaning that policy has aimed at increasing the
>> number of children into academic further education, when really a lot
>> would benefit from moving into vocational training earlier. I suppose
>> this is because the decisions are made by people with university
>> degrees rather than plumbers.
>
>
>In general, a plumber is more valuable to society than a
>group-theoretician.

They certainly cost more to hire in the UK!

>We have to stop overvaluing academic pursuits over
>vocational jobs. (I got 100% in my group theory class.)
>
>There is simple snobbery at work. In the US a social worker (typically
>a low-IQ college grad) is considered socially superior to a worker like
>a car mechanic or electrician.
>
>There is much skill and dedication in a job well-done, and we really
>should value the training and smarts of those engaged in the trades.

Yes, I agree. There's definitely a snobbery at work - but there are
also problem in our education system. There's still a very strong bias
in the British education system towards academic subjects - meaning
that a lot of pupils spend their last couple of years at school (when
they're 15 / 16) doing little that's of benefit to them. Things are
getting better, and they are definitely better once people have left
school (there are plenty of vocationally oriented colleges), but I
think a lot of 15 year olds would benefit from being able to choose a
carpentry class rather than a calculus one.

GEJ

Date: 20 Dec 2008 01:37:25
From: Jason Pawloski
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Dec 20 2008 12:47 AM, Bill T wrote:

> On 12/19/2008 23:19, Gareth Erskine-Jones wrote:
> >
> > In the UK the education system has always tended to be biased towards
> > academic study and qualification (meaning the more abstract rather
> > than practical subjects). This starts quite early - e.g. by the time a
> > child is 14 years old, it's pretty easy to see if he's going to do
> > better in group theory or fixing cars. Unfortunately (although this
> > has got better recently) the practical / vocational subjects have been
> > treated as inferior, meaning that policy has aimed at increasing the
> > number of children into academic further education, when really a lot
> > would benefit from moving into vocational training earlier. I suppose
> > this is because the decisions are made by people with university
> > degrees rather than plumbers.
>
>
> In general, a plumber is more valuable to society than a
> group-theoretician. We have to stop overvaluing academic pursuits over
> vocational jobs. (I got 100% in my group theory class.)

You actually had a class only on group theory without rings and fields?
Was it an elective course or was it a part of a math curriculum?

I've seen many, many math curricula and never once seen a class only on
groups.

My groups, rings, and fields professor was German through college and then
emmigrated to the US. He said in his last year of high school he had an
introductory course on group theory, although he was quick to emphasize it
was not a college-level course. I was a junior in college, I think, when I
took my groups, rings and fields class. America is doomed because we can't
keep up with countries that actually try to teach their kids math.

--
"Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)

_______________________________________________________________________
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com

Date: 20 Dec 2008 13:47:33
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

Jason:

Yes, during my undergraduate days there was a course called Theory of
Groups. We used the book by Rotman.

Mel
"Jason Pawloski" <a6794a4@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:lvqu16xbke.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Dec 20 2008 12:47 AM, Bill T wrote:
>
>> On 12/19/2008 23:19, Gareth Erskine-Jones wrote:
>> >
>> > In the UK the education system has always tended to be biased towards
>> > academic study and qualification (meaning the more abstract rather
>> > than practical subjects). This starts quite early - e.g. by the time a
>> > child is 14 years old, it's pretty easy to see if he's going to do
>> > better in group theory or fixing cars. Unfortunately (although this
>> > has got better recently) the practical / vocational subjects have been
>> > treated as inferior, meaning that policy has aimed at increasing the
>> > number of children into academic further education, when really a lot
>> > would benefit from moving into vocational training earlier. I suppose
>> > this is because the decisions are made by people with university
>> > degrees rather than plumbers.
>>
>>
>> In general, a plumber is more valuable to society than a
>> group-theoretician. We have to stop overvaluing academic pursuits over
>> vocational jobs. (I got 100% in my group theory class.)
>
> You actually had a class only on group theory without rings and fields?
> Was it an elective course or was it a part of a math curriculum?
>
> I've seen many, many math curricula and never once seen a class only on
> groups.
>
> My groups, rings, and fields professor was German through college and then
> emmigrated to the US. He said in his last year of high school he had an
> introductory course on group theory, although he was quick to emphasize it
> was not a college-level course. I was a junior in college, I think, when I
> took my groups, rings and fields class. America is doomed because we can't
> keep up with countries that actually try to teach their kids math.
>
> --
> "Actually, I will read Jason's posts too. He's smart also." - Paul
> Popinjay, 10/21/2007 (http://tinyurl.com/4bggyp)
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 20 Dec 2008 10:35:06
From: Gareth Erskine-Jones
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:37:25 -0800, "Jason Pawloski"
<a6794a4@webnntp.invalid > wrote:

>> In general, a plumber is more valuable to society than a
>> group-theoretician. We have to stop overvaluing academic pursuits over
>> vocational jobs. (I got 100% in my group theory class.)
>
>You actually had a class only on group theory without rings and fields?
>Was it an elective course or was it a part of a math curriculum?
>
>I've seen many, many math curricula and never once seen a class only on
>groups.

He didn't say he didn't study rings and fields. The group theory
classes I've taken included rings and fields (of course), but the name
of the class was "Group Theory".

GEJ

Date: 19 Dec 2008 23:42:25
From: FL Turbo
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:03:56 -0600, "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none >
wrote:

>You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective class.
>Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a C.
>He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally getting
>it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
>why?

Personally, I would say that you should do whatever it takes to give
him a passing grade.

Otherwise, it would be considered evidence that you or your associates
suck as teachers.

But then, it may be that the kid is just flat out too stupid to
understand much of anything.
Don't even think of trying to explain that one to the parents.

Bottom line here.
Don't give yourself any more problems than you already have.
Pass the kid and move on.

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:29:18
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

"FL Turbo" <noemail@notime.com > wrote in message
news:hlvok4h0sv26rpjfnivdtsk8mcmm0s1hh2@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:03:56 -0600, "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none>
> wrote:
>
>>You have a college student one of the sciences. Second year elective
>>class.
>>Guy struggles the whole way through and by the final needs 94% to make a
>>C.
>>He attends your special tutoring session and seems like he's finally
>>getting
>>it. Final comes and he gets 89% on the final. What grade does he get and
>>why?
>
> Personally, I would say that you should do whatever it takes to give
> him a passing grade...

There are a whole lot of reasons this is really wrong, not the least of
which is that we're talking about college.

Student is in the C-minus/D range because that's what he earned. If he's on
the bubble WRT the curve, I mark him up to the C minus for the effort.

Jim

Date: 19 Dec 2008 22:06:15
From: Bill T
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor

On 12/19/2008 21:42, FL Turbo wrote:

>
> Personally, I would say that you should do whatever it takes to give
> him a passing grade.
>
> Otherwise, it would be considered evidence that you or your associates
> suck as teachers.
>
> But then, it may be that the kid is just flat out too stupid to
> understand much of anything.
> Don't even think of trying to explain that one to the parents.
>
> Bottom line here.
> Don't give yourself any more problems than you already have.
> Pass the kid and move on.

Man, I thought I was cynical. You are correct, of course.

Date: 19 Dec 2008 21:35:53
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: Question for the Professor