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Date: 22 Dec 2008 11:22:24
From: Lucky Liz
Subject: NL Hand
This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.

Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.

The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
pot.

What is your game plan from here?

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 05:52:24
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

Minraise, call his shove, collect the pot, and move on.

If he just calls and checks the flop then I probably ck behind on most
turn cards and let him bluff at the river.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 08:12:53
From: gtech1
Subject: Re: NL Hand
Shove? With $3,000 in front and a $215 pot?
On Dec 23 2008 8:52 AM, CincinnatiKid wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
>
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
>
> Minraise, call his shove, collect the pot, and move on.
>
> If he just calls and checks the flop then I probably ck behind on most
> turn cards and let him bluff at the river.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:27:06
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 11:12 AM, gtech1 wrote:

> Shove? With $3,000 in front and a $215 pot?

Cincykid was clearly responding to the OP, not to the post like a full day
later stating the stack sizes of 300xBB.

Fell
--
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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:13:57
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
LOL! What?




On Dec 23 2008 11:12 AM, gtech1 wrote:

> Shove? With $3,000 in front and a $215 pot?
> On Dec 23 2008 8:52 AM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
> >
> > > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> > >
> > > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> > >
> > > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > > pot.
> > >
> > > What is your game plan from here?
> >
> > Minraise, call his shove, collect the pot, and move on.
> >
> > If he just calls and checks the flop then I probably ck behind on most
> > turn cards and let him bluff at the river.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:27:20
From: gtech1
Subject: Re: NL Hand
LOL at you thinking the other guy is gonna shove when you raise to 200 and
he has 3,000 in front of him.

On Dec 23 2008 12:13 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:

> LOL! What?
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 23 2008 11:12 AM, gtech1 wrote:
>
> > Shove? With $3,000 in front and a $215 pot?
> > On Dec 23 2008 8:52 AM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
> >
> > > On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
> > >
> > > > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the
hand
> > > > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I
responded,
> > > > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> > > >
> > > > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > > > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> > > >
> > > > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the
entire
> > > > pot.
> > > >
> > > > What is your game plan from here?
> > >
> > > Minraise, call his shove, collect the pot, and move on.
> > >
> > > If he just calls and checks the flop then I probably ck behind on most
> > > turn cards and let him bluff at the river.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:36:09
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 12:27 PM, gtech1 wrote:

> LOL at you thinking the other guy is gonna shove when you raise to 200 and
> he has 3,000 in front of him.

Again, when the OP had no info, we have to base our play on the most
likely scenario, effective stack sizes of $1000.

In this case, when you make it $200, and the villain has $850 left ($100
to him), it is entirely reasonable to expect a LAG to interpret your
minraise as weakness and push with any Ace, some Tens, some weird hands,
and many broadway gutshot draws.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:38:41
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 12:36 PM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Dec 23 2008 12:27 PM, gtech1 wrote:
>
> > LOL at you thinking the other guy is gonna shove when you raise to 200 and
> > he has 3,000 in front of him.
>
> Again, when the OP had no info, we have to base our play on the most
> likely scenario, effective stack sizes of $1000.
>
> In this case, when you make it $200, and the villain has $850 left ($100
> to him), it is entirely reasonable to expect a LAG to interpret your
> minraise as weakness and push with any Ace, some Tens, some weird hands,
> and many broadway gutshot draws.
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

Exactly. The minraise is the absolute best play here for several reasons.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:51:19
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 12:38 PM, CincinnatiKid wrote:

> On Dec 23 2008 12:36 PM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Dec 23 2008 12:27 PM, gtech1 wrote:
> >
> > > LOL at you thinking the other guy is gonna shove when you raise to 200
and
> > > he has 3,000 in front of him.
> >
> > Again, when the OP had no info, we have to base our play on the most
> > likely scenario, effective stack sizes of $1000.
> >
> > In this case, when you make it $200, and the villain has $850 left ($100
> > to him), it is entirely reasonable to expect a LAG to interpret your
> > minraise as weakness and push with any Ace, some Tens, some weird hands,
> > and many broadway gutshot draws.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!
>
> Exactly. The minraise is the absolute best play here for several reasons.

I think it depends on the LAG. Some LAGs may be LAG but still see MUTB
when faced with a min-raise, but see calling as weak. Others would see
the min-raise as weak, and the call as a trap. I think a healthy mix of
doing both would be best at 100xBB.

At 300xBB, I am honestly not sure how best to play this hand after the
flop. In this case, the preflop call becomes a big error, IMO. Either
raising or folding is superior.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 08:28:25
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 11:12 AM, gtech1 wrote:

> Shove? With $3,000 in front and a $215 pot?

Clearly you've never watched Cinci play.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:14:57
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 11:28 AM, GrouchySmurf1002 wrote:

> On Dec 23 2008 11:12 AM, gtech1 wrote:
>
> > Shove? With $3,000 in front and a $215 pot?
>
> Clearly you've never watched Cinci play.


The uber-mega overshove with top pair, 2nd kicker is a 4th level play that
I wouldn't expect you idiots to be able to comprehend.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 01:44:11
From: Lucky Liz
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 11:22 AM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

I went back to pokerstrategyforums and reread the problem.

$5-$10 blind and both players had $3,000 in front of them, lAG made it $50
to go after three palyers folded, hero called from cutoff with AQs,
everybody esle folded, two players saw the flop and the pot is $115.

The flop is A-10-4 rainbow, one spade. The LAG bets $100, what do you do?

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 02:33:45
From: Ian Stuart
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 10:44 AM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 11:22 AM, Lucky Liz wrote:
>
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
>
> I went back to pokerstrategyforums and reread the problem.
>
> $5-$10 blind and both players had $3,000 in front of them, lAG made it $50
> to go after three palyers folded, hero called from cutoff with AQs,
> everybody esle folded, two players saw the flop and the pot is $115.
>
> The flop is A-10-4 rainbow, one spade. The LAG bets $100, what do you do?

I would go back to the list and ask the "pro" why he's bothering to start
a discussion with so little information. If he is a decent pro he should
have moved way beyond basic stereotyping and would be giving us a lot more
to work with than just LAG.

How loose is loose? How aggressive is aggressive? Is he only aggressive
preflop or post-flop as well? Does he regularly continuation bet? If he
c-bets and gets called does he slow down or does he keep firing on the
turn? Does he routinely slow down if he gets a good flop? Does he vary his
style depending on who's in the hand with him and if so how does he tend
to play against us? How much money do we have off the table and roughly
how much time is left in this session? How much money do the other players
in the game have? What are the other players like?

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 19:58:16
From: eldo77
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

I agree with Russ except for the calling part. You called the raise and
hit your hand. Now you have to fold. Which is why he called it a sucker
hand.

eldo77

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 07:01:15
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 9:58 PM, eldo77 wrote:

> I agree with Russ except for the calling part. You called the raise and
> hit your hand. Now you have to fold. Which is why he called it a sucker
> hand.

Why do you have to fold? Are you assuming that the loose aggressive
player always has AK here?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 08:49:10
From: eldo77
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 10:01 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 9:58 PM, eldo77 wrote:
>
> > I agree with Russ except for the calling part. You called the raise and
> > hit your hand. Now you have to fold. Which is why he called it a sucker
> > hand.
>
> Why do you have to fold? Are you assuming that the loose aggressive
> player always has AK here?
>
> ---
> Morphy


I will admit a fold is questionable. But then, so is a call. My point was,
although I didn't explain it very well, he shouldn't have gotten involved
in the first place. Now he has hit something marginal with no idea where
he is in the hand.It's not only this bet he has to worry about. What's he
going to do if a blank comes and he's facing a much bigger bet on the turn?

eldo77

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:13:24
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 11:49 AM, eldo77 wrote:

> On Dec 23 2008 10:01 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 9:58 PM, eldo77 wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with Russ except for the calling part. You called the raise and
> > > hit your hand. Now you have to fold. Which is why he called it a sucker
> > > hand.
> >
> > Why do you have to fold? Are you assuming that the loose aggressive
> > player always has AK here?
> >
> > ---
> > Morphy
>
>
> I will admit a fold is questionable. But then, so is a call. My point was,
> although I didn't explain it very well, he shouldn't have gotten involved
> in the first place. Now he has hit something marginal with no idea where
> he is in the hand.It's not only this bet he has to worry about. What's he
> going to do if a blank comes and he's facing a much bigger bet on the turn?
>
> eldo77

See, this is the shit right here that makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

How in the hell is this "marginal?" This is fucking yahtzee 9/10 times.

Yeah, sometimes the opponent will have AK, 2pair, or a set......BUT the
overwhelming majority of the time they won't.

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 08:51:42
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 10:49 AM, eldo77 wrote:

> I will admit a fold is questionable. But then, so is a call. My point was,
> although I didn't explain it very well, he shouldn't have gotten involved
> in the first place. Now he has hit something marginal with no idea where
> he is in the hand.It's not only this bet he has to worry about. What's he
> going to do if a blank comes and he's facing a much bigger bet on the turn?

So is your game plan to just fold to every single raise from a LAG player
and wait for AA?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:28:58
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 11:51 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 23 2008 10:49 AM, eldo77 wrote:
>
> > I will admit a fold is questionable. But then, so is a call. My point was,
> > although I didn't explain it very well, he shouldn't have gotten involved
> > in the first place. Now he has hit something marginal with no idea where
> > he is in the hand.It's not only this bet he has to worry about. What's he
> > going to do if a blank comes and he's facing a much bigger bet on the turn?
>
> So is your game plan to just fold to every single raise from a LAG player
> and wait for AA?
>
> ---
> Morphy

Fortunately for me, many people play this way against me ;)

Fell
--
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Date: 22 Dec 2008 16:25:17
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 1:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

lol..call and hope a J comes .. then there is absolutely no hand besides
KK that you can beat , then hope he checks , then hope a K comes !!

this question is awful weak with such slight info !!


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 17:02:09
From: jonathan
Subject: Re: NL Hand
easy call here.

On Dec 22 2008 4:25 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 1:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
>
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
>
> lol..call and hope a J comes .. then there is absolutely no hand besides
> KK that you can beat , then hope he checks , then hope a K comes !!
>
> this question is awful weak with such slight info !!
>
>
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
> Voltaire


-------------------------------
me and you... we'll never get along, i hate the way you play your hands
and you wear your gun all wrong

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 17:25:10
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 7:02 PM, jonathan wrote:

> easy call here.

FOR YOU ...CORRECT .. cuz you would be all-in at this point in any game
you play !!!!
>
> On Dec 22 2008 4:25 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 1:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
> >
> > > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> > >
> > > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> > >
> > > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > > pot.
> > >
> > > What is your game plan from here?
> >
> > lol..call and hope a J comes .. then there is absolutely no hand besides
> > KK that you can beat , then hope he checks , then hope a K comes !!
> >
> > this question is awful weak with such slight info !!
> >
> >
> > Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
> > Voltaire
>
>
> -------------------------------
> me and you... we'll never get along, i hate the way you play your hands
> and you wear your gun all wrong


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 16:07:00
From: Clave
Subject: Re: NL Hand
"Lucky Liz" <luckyliz64@aol.com > wrote in message
news:g06526xi39.ln2@recgroups.com...
> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.

Van Patten called AQ the "Mike Tyson" hand -- looks strong, usually gets
beat.

Jim




 
Date: 22 Dec 2008 14:45:43
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: NL Hand
AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
as well call.


On Dec 22, 11:22=EF=BF=BDam, "Lucky Liz" <luckyli...@aol.com > wrote:
> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________=EF=
=BF=BD
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com



  
Date: 23 Dec 2008 05:59:57
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 5:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> as well call.
>

Well, you can't fold. Also, AQ gets a bad rap because of all the tv time
"big slick" gets. AQ is a great starting hand...especially when the flop
is ATx with no obvious flush draw. Simple math/odds suggest you're well
ahead over a standard raising range from a "LAG" player.

I think a reasonable range for your standard LAG player in this hand would
bet 55+, A6s+, any two broadway. We're well ahead of his range here.

Best play is minraise.


> On Dec 22, 11:22�am, "Lucky Liz" <luckyli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________�
> > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 06:53:53
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 7:59 AM, CincinnatiKid wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 5:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
>
> > AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> > as well call.
> >
>
> Well, you can't fold. Also, AQ gets a bad rap because of all the tv time
> "big slick" gets. AQ is a great starting hand...especially when the flop
> is ATx with no obvious flush draw. Simple math/odds suggest you're well
> ahead over a standard raising range from a "LAG" player.
>
> I think a reasonable range for your standard LAG player in this hand would
> bet 55+, A6s+, any two broadway. We're well ahead of his range here.
>
> Best play is minraise.

YOU REALLY DONT HAVE MUCH OF AN ABILITY TO REASON .. DO YOU ?
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 11:22�am, "Lucky Liz" <luckyli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> > >
> > > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> > >
> > > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > > pot.
> > >
> > > What is your game plan from here?
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________________________�
> > > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:21:48
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 9:53 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Dec 23 2008 7:59 AM, CincinnatiKid wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 5:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> > > as well call.
> > >
> >
> > Well, you can't fold. Also, AQ gets a bad rap because of all the tv time
> > "big slick" gets. AQ is a great starting hand...especially when the flop
> > is ATx with no obvious flush draw. Simple math/odds suggest you're well
> > ahead over a standard raising range from a "LAG" player.
> >
> > I think a reasonable range for your standard LAG player in this hand would
> > bet 55+, A6s+, any two broadway. We're well ahead of his range here.
> >
> > Best play is minraise.
>
> YOU REALLY DONT HAVE MUCH OF AN ABILITY TO REASON .. DO YOU ?

His line on this hand is a fuckload better than your hand.

Fell
--
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Date: 22 Dec 2008 17:27:31
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 4:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> as well call.

Yeah .. genius advice Russell.. the only hand you can beat is AJ , and any
other hand he has either beats you , or he cannot put any more money in
the pot

CALLING HERE IS A RIDICULOUS THING TO DO

ONCE AGAIN .. raising or folding is much better
>
>
> On Dec 22, 11:22�am, "Lucky Liz" <luckyli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________�
> > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com


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Voltaire

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 07:00:33
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 7:27 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 4:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
>
> > AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> > as well call.
>
> Yeah .. genius advice Russell.. the only hand you can beat is AJ , and any
> other hand he has either beats you , or he cannot put any more money in
> the pot
>
> CALLING HERE IS A RIDICULOUS THING TO DO
>
> ONCE AGAIN .. raising or folding is much better

Guys, this is not some poker game in 1965. The opponent is labeled loose
aggressive. Do you even know what that means? Does that mean he has to
have AK here?

Do you idiots even think about anything past the hole cards and what you
have?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 23 Dec 2008 09:18:43
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 10:00 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 7:27 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 4:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> > > as well call.
> >
> > Yeah .. genius advice Russell.. the only hand you can beat is AJ , and any
> > other hand he has either beats you , or he cannot put any more money in
> > the pot
> >
> > CALLING HERE IS A RIDICULOUS THING TO DO
> >
> > ONCE AGAIN .. raising or folding is much better
>
> Guys, this is not some poker game in 1965. The opponent is labeled loose
> aggressive. Do you even know what that means? Does that mean he has to
> have AK here?
>
> Do you idiots even think about anything past the hole cards and what you
> have?
>
> ---
> Morphy
> xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
> http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
> "SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

RHETORICAL!

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 15:05:00
From: I eat donks
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 10:45 PM, RussGeorgiev@aol.com wrote:

> AQ is a suckers hands. Shouldn't have called, but since you did, might
> as well call.
>
>


Ok, so that's the flop covered. And the turn? Still call without regards
to the type of players you are facing? 'Loose Aggressive' covers a
multitude of sins, does it not?

'Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll Keep the red flag flying
here.' The Red Flag

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 14:34:00
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 1:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

ask myself why I just called b4 the flop?..foldin or raising is a much
better play

no info about stack size either ???


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 15:01:38
From: I eat donks
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 10:34 PM, FangBanger wrote:


>
> ask myself why I just called b4 the flop?..foldin or raising is a much
> better play
>


Bad Doggy, down boy! Stop pretending you know anything about poker.
Sometimes raising is the better play, sometimes folding makes more sense,
yet there are other times when calling is the better option. It depends
on the players he was facing, and the size of the stacks. So don't go all
high and mighty and stated without exception that raising or folding is
always much better than calling.

Anyway, that wasn't his question. Mention the questionable preflop call
by all means, and certainly you could moan at him for the lack of
information provided, but at least try to answer what he should do in the
situation described if you are responding.

'Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll Keep the red flag flying
here.' The Red Flag

_______________________________________________________________________
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Date: 22 Dec 2008 16:20:24
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 5:01 PM, I eat donks wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 10:34 PM, FangBanger wrote:
>
>
> >
> > ask myself why I just called b4 the flop?..foldin or raising is a much
> > better play
> >
>
>
> Bad Doggy, down boy! Stop pretending you know anything about poker.

i FORGOT MORE ABOUT POKER THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW !!



> Sometimes raising is the better play, sometimes folding makes more sense,
> yet there are other times when calling is the better option. It depends
> on the players he was facing, and the size of the stacks. So don't go all
> high and mighty and stated without exception that raising or folding is
> always much better than calling.

i didnt say that .. but it is MUCH better here !!
>
> Anyway, that wasn't his question. Mention the questionable preflop call
> by all means, and certainly you could moan at him for the lack of
> information provided, but at least try to answer what he should do in the
> situation described if you are responding.

My "game plan " is to improve. And anyone who knows anything about poker
would think exactly what i thought at some point
>
> 'Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll Keep the red flag flying
> here.' The Red Flag


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 22:15:38
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 7:20 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 5:01 PM, I eat donks wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 10:34 PM, FangBanger wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ask myself why I just called b4 the flop?..foldin or raising is a much
> > > better play
> > >
> >
> >
> > Bad Doggy, down boy! Stop pretending you know anything about poker.
>
> i FORGOT MORE ABOUT POKER THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW !!

That explains why you suck so bad.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 18:23:12
From: I eat donks
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 23 2008 12:20 AM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 5:01 PM, I eat donks wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 10:34 PM, FangBanger wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ask myself why I just called b4 the flop?..foldin or raising is a much
> > > better play
> > >
> >
> >
> > Bad Doggy, down boy! Stop pretending you know anything about poker.
>
> i FORGOT MORE ABOUT POKER THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW !!
>
>

Bad dog! You dont even know how to read the board. Or have you simply
forgotten?

'Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll Keep the red flag flying
here.' The Red Flag

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 14:30:13
From: I eat donks
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 7:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

How loose, how aggressive? Loose aggressive both pre and post flop, or
preflop/postflop only?

Preflop considerations:

How many player in the game? What are the stacks? What is the button
like? Is he likely to try for a positional raise to isolate the LAP in
EP? Or is he likely to overcall with a marginal hand, or calling instead
of raising with AK hoping to trap a weaker ace, or is he just a rock who
wont raise unless he has AA/KK, and dont fancy AK too much unless he hits
the flop? Does he play his position well? Can he make a move if he senses
weakness? Can he trap well with a big hand?

What are the the blinds like? Are they likely to raise because they see
your and button's call as weakness, and they don't give much weight to the
EP raise because he's LAP?

All these points have a bearing on whether you should fold, call or raise.

Where you were at:

What were the stacks? Is he likely to bet again on the turn with a worse
hand? How loose is loose? Without knowing any of these, its hard to know
exactly what you should do. Against an ultra donk, assuming stacks to be
in the region of 100BBs (preflop stacks)...call the flop bet, and move in
if he leads out properly again on the turn. Bet about 1/2 to 3/4 pot if
he checks to induce a check-raise bluff/sweeten the pot. Bet pot/move in,
depending on the pot/stack ratio, at the river if he just calls the turn
bet.

Against a good loose aggressive player, call the flop bet, check behind on
the turn if checked into, both to keep the pot smallish and to induce a
bet/call on the river. If such a player leads out strongly again on the
turn, you must consider if you are willing to risk your stack with TP 2nd
kicker. Loose aggressive doesn't mean that they are donks. I've met some
real good loose aggressive players that are only loose if pots are small.
They won't play big pots, especially OOP, without a big hand.

Against a 'normal' LAP , it might be better to play it more
passively...just call the flop bet, call the turn if he bets, or check
behind if checked into. Call the river bet if he leads, and you can value
bet if he checks and the board doesn't look too threatening, often such
wonderful hands such as AJ and A9 will call. These 'normal LAP find
laying down TP marginal kicker next to impossible, but they will slow down
in the face of resistance.

Hope this helps.


'Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll Keep the red flag flying
here.' The Red Flag

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 11:33:03
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 1:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

I ask why we have so little information about the game, situation, and
player.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com
"SHUT UP IDIOT" --The Great Patholio

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 11:25:08
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:

> This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
>
> Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
>
> The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> pot.
>
> What is your game plan from here?

You flop top pair 2nd kicker against a loose aggressive player. You are
not very worried about giving free cards anyway, but especially not so
much on this flop. This is a clear call, and call, and call, betting only
if he checks to you on the river (if he checks the turn, it is probably
better to check behind and let him bluff the river).

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 14:44:29
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 1:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
>
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
>
> You flop top pair 2nd kicker against a loose aggressive player. You are
> not very worried about giving free cards anyway, but especially not so
> much on this flop. This is a clear call, and call, and call, betting only
> if he checks to you on the river (if he checks the turn, it is probably
> better to check behind and let him bluff the river).
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Consider

Bad play in a tourny and HORRIBLE in a cash game

It doesnt say so you pick how bad you want to play it !!


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 15:00:46
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 5:44 PM, FangBanger wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 1:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
> >
> > > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> > >
> > > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> > >
> > > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > > pot.
> > >
> > > What is your game plan from here?
> >
> > You flop top pair 2nd kicker against a loose aggressive player. You are
> > not very worried about giving free cards anyway, but especially not so
> > much on this flop. This is a clear call, and call, and call, betting only
> > if he checks to you on the river (if he checks the turn, it is probably
> > better to check behind and let him bluff the river).
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Consider
>
> Bad play in a tourny and HORRIBLE in a cash game
>
> It doesnt say so you pick how bad you want to play it !!
>
>
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
> Voltaire

Whatever you say doggy.

Fell
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 12:50:57
From: gtech1
Subject: Re: NL Hand
Agree. As an aside, what's your opinion of raising the flop "to see where
you're at?" I used to subscribe to this line of thought but the more I've
played the less I like it. You can risk about the same by calling the
flop and turn as you would if you raised the flop. Plus, if you raise the
flop and get re-re-popped, what do you do then?

On Dec 22 2008 2:25 PM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 2:22 PM, Lucky Liz wrote:
>
> > This thread started at pokerstrategyforums, the pro that posted the hand
> > said, "I am only going to answer those that respond to it." I responded,
> > and am not sure I agree, or more likely, I can't see the logic.
> >
> > Loose aggressive player raises to 5 BB's after 3 folds, you have AQs in
> > the cutoff and call, everybody else folds.
> >
> > The flop is Ad-10s-4h, the loose aggressive player bets almost the entire
> > pot.
> >
> > What is your game plan from here?
>
> You flop top pair 2nd kicker against a loose aggressive player. You are
> not very worried about giving free cards anyway, but especially not so
> much on this flop. This is a clear call, and call, and call, betting only
> if he checks to you on the river (if he checks the turn, it is probably
> better to check behind and let him bluff the river).
>
> Fell
> --
> Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 12:59:27
From: FellKnight
Subject: Re: NL Hand
On Dec 22 2008 3:50 PM, gtech1 wrote:

> Agree. As an aside, what's your opinion of raising the flop "to see where
> you're at?" I used to subscribe to this line of thought but the more I've
> played the less I like it. You can risk about the same by calling the
> flop and turn as you would if you raised the flop. Plus, if you raise the
> flop and get re-re-popped, what do you do then?

Raising the flop can serve several good purposes. "Seeing where you are
at" is not one of them.

Farson
--
Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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Date: 22 Dec 2008 19:14:46
From: gtech1
Subject: Re: NL Hand
LOL. That is a pretty good impersonation of a Gary Carson response.
On Dec 22 2008 3:59 PM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Dec 22 2008 3:50 PM, gtech1 wrote:
>
> > Agree. As an aside, what's your opinion of raising the flop "to see where
> > you're at?" I used to subscribe to this line of thought but the more I've
> > played the less I like it. You can risk about the same by calling the
> > flop and turn as you would if you raised the flop. Plus, if you raise the
> > flop and get re-re-popped, what do you do then?
>
> Raising the flop can serve several good purposes. "Seeing where you are
> at" is not one of them.
>
> Farson
> --
> Be Loud. Be Proud. Be Considerate!

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