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Date: 24 Dec 2008 04:47:02
From: Renli
Subject: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
Here is what I think is about to happen.

Obama is probably told every day that the world is being swept by
fear, causing (money) velocity to plunge, and he is the only person
who can do anything about it. He is the de facto president of the
world.

I think Obama and his gang are preparing some kind of PT Barnum
spectacular for his inaugural address January 20th.

If it works, (money) velocity will reverse, and we will go back to
where we were August 07 through June 08=97meaning the early stages of a
runaway inflation, with non-dollar assets heading for the
stratosphere. Gold, oil, copper, art, antiques, almost everything you
can name will go to new highs within a few months, and the dollar will
plunge.

If the PT Barnum spectacular does not work, (money) velocity will
continue falling, and we will spiral on down into a depression. Non-
dollar assets will collapse even further than they already have, and
long term Treasury bonds will continue their ascent.

As far as I know, the only investment plan that minimizes the risk
on both sides of this crisis is Harry Browne=92s, which I have written
about often.

I wish I could be more help. In the 4/07 and 6/07 EWRs, I wrote
about the fall of the US Empire. Now I think it=92s begun, and it won=92t
be any more fun than the fall of the Roman Empire was in 476 AD.
Today=92s economic chaos is just the economic symptom of this monumental
event.

In short, the fall of the US empire is, I think, baked in the
cake, as certain as anything in human affairs can be. The specific
form it takes during the next two years or so will be determined
mostly by Obama=92s performance on January 20th.

A day or two after Obama=92s inaugural, I plan to give my
subscribers an analysis and forecast for what I think is coming. It
will be posted on the Subscriber Access part of the web site.

But regardless of what happens, keep this in mind. We got into
this runaway deflation through the stupidity of the demigods in
Washington. Instead of firing most or all their ammunition at the
deflation as soon as it arose, they fired a round here and there,
never producing an improvement large enough to be noticeable to the
general public. The lack of results, time after time, has demoralized
the whole world population, causing velocity to drop further.

It=92s been similar to trying to stop a brush fire not by dumping a
deluge of water on it all at once but with one bucket every hour.

In other words, Washington=92s emergency measures have made the
emergency worse.

Expecting the new crew to do better would be naive, which I will
explain in the January EWR. During his campaign, Obama promised
=93change!=94 but now he is hiring the same people who have roamed the
halls of power for decades and who played no small part in creating
this disaster.

The bottom line is, be ready for an even wilder ride than we=92ve
already had. Obama=92s PT Barnum spectacular could send us in the
direction of almost any conceivable fate.

Your next EWR is scheduled to arrive the first few days of
January. And, again, look for my analysis and forecast for the results
of Obama=92s inaugural speech on the Subscriber Access part of the web
site a day or two after January 20th.

Merry Christmas, and fasten your seatbelt.

(quoted from: http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflat=
ion-launched-jan-20th/)




 
Date: 27 Dec 2008 06:05:33
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
> The problem with the model you are attempting to construct is that it
> does not rely on a proper definition of inflation. =A0If the amount of
> stuff is so great that prices fall then money need to be squirted into
> the economy to arrest the downward spiral. =A0That means that the money c=
an
> be placed into the economy as much higher and longer unemployment
> benefits and nationalized health care payments without causing inflation
> as inflation is characteristically defined.

This is absurd.

Health care is NOT an investment and neither are unemployment
benefits.

One of the problems is TOO MUCH DEBT for TOO MANY BENEFITS.

If prices are falling, that is a symptom of TOO MUCH supply or too
little demand. Neither of these is best addressed by injecting
fucking money to try to DISTORT the natural balance of things.

> I, and most rational economists will agree with that. =A0Now consider tha=
t
> the cars we have and the infrastructure we have are not suitable to the
> reality of the oil problem or the GW problem. =A0We have a lot of catchin=
g
> up to do and that means a lot of jobs. =A0A huge number of those jobs wil=
l
> be in what is now the auto building segment of the economy if we can keep
> the things alive until next spring/summer.

Jobs...lol.

Listen, our entire reality isn't what we thought it was. We can't
retool our cars to run on pixie dust so as to continue living like we
have except on pixie cars. It won't work.

> Horseshit. The government "intervention" in the economy has been in the
> propping up of the "financial sector". =A0That has been true for the last
> 30 years. =A0The stupidity that says money is wealth is simply false and =
we
> need to learn those facts. =A0If we have too much production then why are
> we not cutting the workweek and moving toward a nationalized health
> insurance system?

There is too much production GLOBALLY. The deflation is a global
phenomenon now. Velocity has crawled to a halt.


> I would agree with that. =A0But the solution is less work and more leisur=
e
> in a non forced way.

LOL.

No.

there is NO SOLUTION to a headroom condition to a growth problem other
than a COMPLETE change in the entire system.

Trav


 
Date: 27 Dec 2008 06:00:24
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
> That was also true in the fiat money system until Greenspan and the
> Republicans screwed the pooch. =A0I highly recommend the series on
> "banking" that you will find here:

Wow...you can't start having a monetary discussion for 10 minutes
before some idiot brings partisanship into it, can you?

There has never been any discipline in any fiat monetary
system...ever.

> That is actually true. =A0But it has nothing to do with gold versus fiat.

It has to do with debt versus money.

> They took risks and that lost. =A0Those who took big risks should lose a
> lot and those that took smaller risks should not lose a lot.

How about the US Government? How about a nice deflationary monetary
implosion constricting all "money" out of the economy in a default-
based black hole?

> Befire the demise of Glass-Steagall the COMMERCIAL BANKS were limited to
> 10 to 1 leverage and that was fine, well, and OK. =A0Once the Commercial
> Banks and the Investment Banks were combined you had a disaster of 30,
> 40, and 50 to 1. =A0See "Gramm-Leech-Bliley Act".

They had no choice.

Any exponential growth system must INHERENTLY increase at an
increasing rate. It's a mathematical fact.

> Nope. =A0The Fed is to limit Commercial Banks to 10 to 1 credit expansion
> and the SEC is to limit the Investment banks, and the CFTC is to limit
> the CDS's and the like. =A0The Republicans gutted the whole thing and the
> result is what you see. =A0It was primarily a failure of the SEC and of t=
he
> Republicans that created the "hands off" approach to financial regulation=
.

Do you know who Leech was? He was not a Republican. In fact, he's in
O'bamma's camp.

Freakin moron.

Trav


 
Date: 27 Dec 2008 05:56:10
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 26, 11:08=A0am, MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net > wrote:
> On Dec 25, 7:22=A0pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "GreenDistantStar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>
> >news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > > clipped
>
> > >> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. Yo=
u
> > >> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> > >> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any j=
obs.
>
> > > The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
> > > consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
> > > overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest =
of
> > > the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend t=
heir
> > > way out of a recession or depression.
>
> > > There's something wrong with that picture.
>
> > > GDS
>
> > > "Let's roll!"
>
> > First, not all American consumers are living on credit. =A0More than 85=
% of
> > American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
> > mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.
>
> > Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements =
to
> > buy votes that started this whole financial mess. =A0You've a group of =
people
> > who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stu=
pid
> > to read. =A0They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wan=
ted but
> > couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.
>
> This is a myth that has been put about by those who really made the
> mess. =A0The folks who got into houses that they couldn't afford total
> less than a small fraction of the 700 Billion. =A0The lenders making
> loans that they shouldn't have may have been the match but it wasn't
> the pool of gasoline that is burning down the economy.
>
> > Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. =
=A0Cut
> > corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
> > itself - as painful as that may be.
>
> This solution has been shown to just lead to more and more boom and
> bust cycles. =A0Without regulation the economy is a high gain, nonlinear
> system with a large phase lag. =A0The boom and bust is the oscillation.
> The tendency to stick at the bottom of the cycle is the nonlinear
> effects. =A0The US had good solid growth in the economy through the
> 1950s and 1960 at much higher tax rates than we have today.

Look, moron, we've had MASSIVE government distortion in the
marketplace since the Fed Act in 1913, and the cycles have gotten
worse.

They've managed to delay a bust cycle for a long time now, 20 years or
so, and it is shaping up to be an apocalypse.

What you say is provably incorrect. Review Austrian School economic
thought if you want a solution for boom and bust cycles, which are a
monetary (debt) phenomenon.

Trav


  
Date: 28 Dec 2008 04:21:27
From: suds macheath
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
travisgod@aol.cominyrface wrote:
> On Dec 26, 11:08 am, MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote:
>> On Dec 25, 7:22 pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "GreenDistantStar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>>> news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>> clipped
>>>>> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. You
>>>>> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
>>>>> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.
>>>> The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
>>>> consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
>>>> overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest of
>>>> the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend their
>>>> way out of a recession or depression.
>>>> There's something wrong with that picture.
>>>> GDS
>>>> "Let's roll!"
>>> First, not all American consumers are living on credit. More than 85% of
>>> American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
>>> mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.
>>> Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements to
>>> buy votes that started this whole financial mess. You've a group of people
>>> who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stupid
>>> to read. They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wanted but
>>> couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.
>> This is a myth that has been put about by those who really made the
>> mess. The folks who got into houses that they couldn't afford total
>> less than a small fraction of the 700 Billion. The lenders making
>> loans that they shouldn't have may have been the match but it wasn't
>> the pool of gasoline that is burning down the economy.
>>
>>> Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. Cut
>>> corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
>>> itself - as painful as that may be.
>> This solution has been shown to just lead to more and more boom and
>> bust cycles. Without regulation the economy is a high gain, nonlinear
>> system with a large phase lag. The boom and bust is the oscillation.
>> The tendency to stick at the bottom of the cycle is the nonlinear
>> effects. The US had good solid growth in the economy through the
>> 1950s and 1960 at much higher tax rates than we have today.
>
> Look, moron, we've had MASSIVE government distortion in the
> marketplace since the Fed Act in 1913, and the cycles have gotten
> worse.
>
> They've managed to delay a bust cycle for a long time now, 20 years or
> so, and it is shaping up to be an apocalypse.
>
> What you say is provably incorrect. Review Austrian School economic
> thought if you want a solution for boom and bust cycles, which are a
> monetary (debt) phenomenon.


Economist Bryan Caplan noted that, "what prevents Austrian economists
from getting more publications in mainstream journals is that their
papers rarely use mathematics or econometrics."

Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, after examining the history of business
cycles in the US, concluded that "The Hayek-Mises explanation of the
business cycle is contradicted by the evidence. It is, I believe, false."

Economist Jeffrey Sachs asserts that when comparing developed
free-market economies, those that have high rates of taxation and high
social welfare spending perform better on most measures of economic
performance compared to countries with low rates of taxation and low
social outlays. He asserts that poverty rates are lower, median income
is higher, the budget has larger surpluses, and the trade balance is
stronger (although unemployment tends to be higher). He concludes that
von Hayek was wrong when he said that high taxation would be a threat to
freedom; but rather, a generous social-welfare state leads to fairness,
economic equality, international competitiveness, and strong vibrant
democracies.





 
Date: 27 Dec 2008 05:53:41
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
> =A0 =A0Did your parents have any kids that weren't born brain dead? =A0If=
so,
> are they home and can you put one of them at the computer so I don't
> waste too much time?
>
> =A0 =A0Poor people have to buy food, clothes and personal care items like
> everybody else. =A0If you weren't 99.999% brain dead you would realize
> that creates jobs in farming, trucking, food processing, manufacturing,
> retail and management. That in turn creates jobs in medical care,
> insurance & construction industries.

LOL...the rich don't buy any of these things, do they?

Idiot.

> =A0 Those people spend that money to buy more goods so yes, the poor
> people do contribute jobs.

"Contribute"???

Who is on the supply side?

> =A0 =A0Rome was full of lazy slave owing idiots. =A0Do you own slaves, or=
are
> you a slave? =A0If not, your comparison is worthless.

Wow. The entire similarity is broken by the absence of this one
thing. Wow.

Yeah, my slaves are the Chinese and mexican workforces.

> =A0 =A0Sounds like your lazy and jealous. =A0I would prefer to be working=
but
> was told by the VA that I will never be able to again.

Due to mental incompetence.

> =A0 =A0Gee. =A0Maybe that's why I rarely shop there? =A0I wouldn't want t=
o spend
> any of my hard earned VA 100% disability pension in China if I can help
> it.
>
> =A0 =A0For the same reason I don't go to 'Big Lots' and buy any of their
> Vietnamese imports.

LOL...so, lemme guess...you only wear Prada?

> =A0 =A0Really? =A0China exports used clothes, shoes & household goods wit=
h
> 'Made in America' tags? =A0Who knew? =A0The only place I've seen with
> Chinese crap was the Goodwill Store. =A0Everything there is overpriced,
> including the 'chinacrapline'

So you scrounge the thrift store to find USA-made stuff. Fine.

> =A0 =A0You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy.
> You could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.

Consumption without production. Consumption BY ITSELF is not an
economy.

We should not take REMEDIAL economic measures targeted at
CONSUMPTION! Our economy has been nothing BUT consumption for 30
years.

Trav


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 22:56:59
From: Michael Coburn
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:45:34 -0800, bulegoge wrote:

> On Dec 26, 12:29 pm, MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote:
>
>> The gold standard is a very bad standard to use.  It allows an accident
>> of geology to hand the keys to the entire economy to some foreign
>> country.  It is foolishness in the extreme to put your country in that
>> situation.
>>
>>
> In theory, the gold standards forces discipline, becuase banks cannot
> create money out of thin air.

That was also true in the fiat money system until Greenspan and the
Republicans screwed the pooch. I highly recommend the series on
"banking" that you will find here:

http://www.khanacademy.org/

> The economic crisis, is a crisis of too
> much fractional reserve lending.

That is actually true. But it has nothing to do with gold versus fiat.

> There are now too many people that own
> financial instruments that expect a return on their investment.

They took risks and that lost. Those who took big risks should lose a
lot and those that took smaller risks should not lose a lot.

> The
> problem is, the real economy has no hope of ever paying for all these
> debts.

At the URL above you will find very good explanations of why there are
many who will lose their poke. And they _SHOULD_ lose their poke. That
does not men that the entire economy has to go down with them.

> The current system allows bankers and wallstreet to create too
> much magic credit, and skim a massive amount of the created credit and
> then pocket it for themselves. All the while, they misallocate
> resources.

Befire the demise of Glass-Steagall the COMMERCIAL BANKS were limited to
10 to 1 leverage and that was fine, well, and OK. Once the Commercial
Banks and the Investment Banks were combined you had a disaster of 30,
40, and 50 to 1. See "Gramm-Leech-Bliley Act".

> I do not think that a pure gold standard is the right way to go, but I
> think that a gold standard should be part of the formula for keeping
> things in check.

Nope. The Fed is to limit Commercial Banks to 10 to 1 credit expansion
and the SEC is to limit the Investment banks, and the CFTC is to limit
the CDS's and the like. The Republicans gutted the whole thing and the
result is what you see. It was primarily a failure of the SEC and of the
Republicans that created the "hands off" approach to financial regulation.

--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 09:45:34
From:
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 26, 12:29=A0pm, MooseFET <kensm...@rahul.net > wrote:

> The gold standard is a very bad standard to use. =A0It allows an
> accident of geology to hand the keys to the entire economy to some
> foreign country. =A0It is foolishness in the extreme to put your country
> in that situation.
>

In theory, the gold standards forces discipline, becuase banks cannot
create money out of thin air. The economic crisis, is a crisis of too
much fractional reserve lending. There are now too many people that
own financial instruments that expect a return on their investment.
The problem is, the real economy has no hope of ever paying for all
these debts. The current system allows bankers and wallstreet to
create too much magic credit, and skim a massive amount of the created
credit and then pocket it for themselves. All the while, they
misallocate resources.

I do not think that a pure gold standard is the right way to go, but I
think that a gold standard should be part of the formula for keeping
things in check.


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 09:35:23
From: MooseFET
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 25, 7:53=A0pm, Michael Coburn <mik...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:06:23 -0800, travis...@aol.cominyrface wrote:
> >> =A0 =A0What better way to make sure it gets spent? =A0A lot of that '4=
0%'
> >> =A0 =A0have
> >> something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> >> account.
>
> > Spent?
>
> > What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?
>
> > So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?
>
> > Trav
>
> Import duties, anyone?

Yes, if they are equal to, or simply part of the VAT tax. No country
has ever become a manufacturing power without tariffs. The same tax
rate should also apply to all mined materials. If you don't do that
you are biasing things towards using up a fixed asset such as the iron
ore that happens to be in the country.



>
> --
> "Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson



 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 09:29:32
From: MooseFET
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 26, 8:28=A0am, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> "MooseFET" <kensm...@rahul.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ad47b60f-193f-4231-8ca7-ef4204567dc7@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 25, 7:22 pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "GreenDistantStar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>
> >news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > > clipped
>
> > >> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. Yo=
u
> > >> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> > >> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any
> > >> jobs.
>
> > > The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
> > > consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
> > > overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest =
of
> > > the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend
> > > their
> > > way out of a recession or depression.
>
> > > There's something wrong with that picture.
>
> > > GDS
>
> > > "Let's roll!"
>
> > First, not all American consumers are living on credit. More than 85% o=
f
> > American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
> > mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.
>
> > Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements =
to
> > buy votes that started this whole financial mess. You've a group of peo=
ple
> > who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stu=
pid
> > to read. They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wanted
> > but
> > couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.
>
> This is a myth that has been put about by those who really made the
> mess. =A0The folks who got into houses that they couldn't afford total
> less than a small fraction of the 700 Billion. =A0The lenders making
> loans that they shouldn't have may have been the match but it wasn't
> the pool of gasoline that is burning down the economy.
>
> > Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. Cu=
t
> > corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
> > itself - as painful as that may be.
>
> This solution has been shown to just lead to more and more boom and
> bust cycles. =A0Without regulation the economy is a high gain, nonlinear
> system with a large phase lag. =A0The boom and bust is the oscillation.
> The tendency to stick at the bottom of the cycle is the nonlinear
> effects. =A0The US had good solid growth in the economy through the
> 1950s and 1960 at much higher tax rates than we have today.
>
> Well here's a thought bucko. =A0Return American currency to the gold stan=
dard
> and stop the bastards in Washington from printing enough to wall paper th=
e
> Grand Canyon.

The gold standard is a very bad standard to use. It allows an
accident of geology to hand the keys to the entire economy to some
foreign country. It is foolishness in the extreme to put your country
in that situation.

>
> Irish Mike



 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 08:08:11
From: MooseFET
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 25, 7:22=A0pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> "GreenDistantStar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>
> news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > clipped
>
> >> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. You
> >> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> >> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any job=
s.
>
> > The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
> > consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
> > overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest of
> > the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend the=
ir
> > way out of a recession or depression.
>
> > There's something wrong with that picture.
>
> > GDS
>
> > "Let's roll!"
>
> First, not all American consumers are living on credit. =A0More than 85% =
of
> American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
> mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.
>
> Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements to
> buy votes that started this whole financial mess. =A0You've a group of pe=
ople
> who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stupi=
d
> to read. =A0They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wante=
d but
> couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.

This is a myth that has been put about by those who really made the
mess. The folks who got into houses that they couldn't afford total
less than a small fraction of the 700 Billion. The lenders making
loans that they shouldn't have may have been the match but it wasn't
the pool of gasoline that is burning down the economy.


> Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. =A0C=
ut
> corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
> itself - as painful as that may be.

This solution has been shown to just lead to more and more boom and
bust cycles. Without regulation the economy is a high gain, nonlinear
system with a large phase lag. The boom and bust is the oscillation.
The tendency to stick at the bottom of the cycle is the nonlinear
effects. The US had good solid growth in the economy through the
1950s and 1960 at much higher tax rates than we have today.




  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 11:28:59
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"MooseFET" <kensmith@rahul.net > wrote in message
news:ad47b60f-193f-4231-8ca7-ef4204567dc7@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 25, 7:22 pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> "GreenDistantStar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
>
> news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > clipped
>
> >> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. You
> >> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> >> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any
> >> jobs.
>
> > The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
> > consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
> > overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest of
> > the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend
> > their
> > way out of a recession or depression.
>
> > There's something wrong with that picture.
>
> > GDS
>
> > "Let's roll!"
>
> First, not all American consumers are living on credit. More than 85% of
> American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
> mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.
>
> Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements to
> buy votes that started this whole financial mess. You've a group of people
> who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stupid
> to read. They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wanted
> but
> couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.

This is a myth that has been put about by those who really made the
mess. The folks who got into houses that they couldn't afford total
less than a small fraction of the 700 Billion. The lenders making
loans that they shouldn't have may have been the match but it wasn't
the pool of gasoline that is burning down the economy.


> Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. Cut
> corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
> itself - as painful as that may be.

This solution has been shown to just lead to more and more boom and
bust cycles. Without regulation the economy is a high gain, nonlinear
system with a large phase lag. The boom and bust is the oscillation.
The tendency to stick at the bottom of the cycle is the nonlinear
effects. The US had good solid growth in the economy through the
1950s and 1960 at much higher tax rates than we have today.

Well here's a thought bucko. Return American currency to the gold standard
and stop the bastards in Washington from printing enough to wall paper the
Grand Canyon.

Irish Mike




   
Date: 26 Dec 2008 09:46:02
From:
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:28:59 -0500, "Irish Mike"
<mjostar@ameritech.net > wrote:


>Well here's a thought bucko. Return American currency to the gold standard
>and stop the bastards in Washington from printing enough to wall paper the
>Grand Canyon.
>
>Irish Mike
>
In order to do that we would have to abolish The Federal Reserve, and
the last person who tried to do that was John Kennedy and we know what
they did to him.


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 23:28:04
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

Michael Coburn wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 16:32:07 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> > "travisgod@aol.cominyrface" wrote:
> >>
> >> > Yawn. More than likely it will be spent on food, home or vehicle
> >> > repairs, or in a thrift store to buy newer, used clothes. The truly
> >> > poor people don't shop at Wal Mart. They scrape by by shopping thrift
> >> > stores & trading things they can't use with others. They know that
> >> > the imports are crap, and would rather spend 20 cents or less on the
> >> > dollar for clean but usable items to stretch their money.
> >>
> >> The "truly poor"???
> >>
> >> What poor person ever gave someone a job?
> >
> >
> > Did your parents have any kids that weren't born brain dead? If so,
> > are they home and can you put one of them at the computer so I don't
> > waste too much time?
> >
> > Poor people have to buy food, clothes and personal care items like
> > everybody else. If you weren't 99.999% brain dead you would realize
> > that creates jobs in farming, trucking, food processing, manufacturing,
> > retail and management. That in turn creates jobs in medical care,
> > insurance & construction industries.
> >
> > Those people spend that money to buy more goods so yes, the poor
> > people do contribute jobs.
> >
> >
> >> Rome tried this too, and everyone went on the dole.
> >
> >
> > Rome was full of lazy slave owing idiots. Do you own slaves, or are
> > you a slave? If not, your comparison is worthless.
> >
> > Sounds like your lazy and jealous. I would prefer to be working but
> > was told by the VA that I will never be able to again.
> >
> >
> >> Walmart is the only retailer who's seeing YoY comps increase this
> >> season. They source their shit from China.
> >
> >
> > Gee. Maybe that's why I rarely shop there? I wouldn't want to spend
> > any of my hard earned VA 100% disability pension in China if I can help
> > it.
> >
> >
> > For the same reason I don't go to 'Big Lots' and buy any of their
> > Vietnamese imports.
> >
> >
> >> Thrift stores?? They get their shit from China too.
> >
> >
> > Really? China exports used clothes, shoes & household goods with
> > 'Made in America' tags? Who knew? The only place I've seen with
> > Chinese crap was the Goodwill Store. Everything there is overpriced,
> > including the 'chinacrapline'
>
> Hold there, pal. I buy used stuff at the Goodwill. If it came from China
> I know not. But I wonder if I care. I would like to see a revenue
> neutral tax shift from corporate taxes to across the board import
> tariffs. That is the way you fix this crap. It takes care of all the
> outsourcing and that is the main problem.


The Chinese stuff was new, not used. The local store had a bunch of
'dollar store' crap near each register, and blocking several isles that
made it difficult to get through with a cane, walker or wheelchair.
Even worse, they wanted $1,75 or more for the same things you could get
a half mile away for a dollar. I hit the dollar store for sugar free
candy, and sometimes I luck out ant get 4 oz. bags of peppered beef
jerky for a dollar. It gives a nice smoky flavor to home made vegetable
soup. These are all made in the US.



> >> Consumption is NOT an economy. It's a delusion.
> >
> >
> > You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy.
> > You could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> > universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.
> >
> > You are proof of the old saying, the asshole doesn't produce
> > anything, but if it doesn't do something once in a while, everything
> > else stops.
>
> --
> "Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

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listed, or I will not see your messages.

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The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 04:03:29
From: Michael Coburn
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 16:32:07 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> "travisgod@aol.cominyrface" wrote:
>>
>> > Yawn. More than likely it will be spent on food, home or vehicle
>> > repairs, or in a thrift store to buy newer, used clothes. The truly
>> > poor people don't shop at Wal Mart. They scrape by by shopping thrift
>> > stores & trading things they can't use with others. They know that
>> > the imports are crap, and would rather spend 20 cents or less on the
>> > dollar for clean but usable items to stretch their money.
>>
>> The "truly poor"???
>>
>> What poor person ever gave someone a job?
>
>
> Did your parents have any kids that weren't born brain dead? If so,
> are they home and can you put one of them at the computer so I don't
> waste too much time?
>
> Poor people have to buy food, clothes and personal care items like
> everybody else. If you weren't 99.999% brain dead you would realize
> that creates jobs in farming, trucking, food processing, manufacturing,
> retail and management. That in turn creates jobs in medical care,
> insurance & construction industries.
>
> Those people spend that money to buy more goods so yes, the poor
> people do contribute jobs.
>
>
>> Rome tried this too, and everyone went on the dole.
>
>
> Rome was full of lazy slave owing idiots. Do you own slaves, or are
> you a slave? If not, your comparison is worthless.
>
> Sounds like your lazy and jealous. I would prefer to be working but
> was told by the VA that I will never be able to again.
>
>
>> Walmart is the only retailer who's seeing YoY comps increase this
>> season. They source their shit from China.
>
>
> Gee. Maybe that's why I rarely shop there? I wouldn't want to spend
> any of my hard earned VA 100% disability pension in China if I can help
> it.
>
>
> For the same reason I don't go to 'Big Lots' and buy any of their
> Vietnamese imports.
>
>
>> Thrift stores?? They get their shit from China too.
>
>
> Really? China exports used clothes, shoes & household goods with
> 'Made in America' tags? Who knew? The only place I've seen with
> Chinese crap was the Goodwill Store. Everything there is overpriced,
> including the 'chinacrapline'

Hold there, pal. I buy used stuff at the Goodwill. If it came from China
I know not. But I wonder if I care. I would like to see a revenue
neutral tax shift from corporate taxes to across the board import
tariffs. That is the way you fix this crap. It takes care of all the
outsourcing and that is the main problem.

>> Consumption is NOT an economy. It's a delusion.
>
>
> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy.
> You could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.
>
> You are proof of the old saying, the asshole doesn't produce
> anything, but if it doesn't do something once in a while, everything
> else stops.





--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 03:56:01
From: Michael Coburn
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:38:37 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> "travisgod@aol.cominyrface" wrote:
>>
>> > What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%'
>> > have
>> > something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
>> > account.
>>
>> Spent?
>>
>> What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?
>>
>> So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?
>
>
> Yawn. More than likely it will be spent on food, home or vehicle
> repairs, or in a thrift store to buy newer, used clothes. The truly poor
> people don't shop at Wal Mart. They scrape by by shopping thrift stores
> & trading things they can't use with others. They know that the imports
> are crap, and would rather spend 20 cents or less on the dollar for
> clean but usable items to stretch their money.

I have been finding some good kitchen stuff at Goodwill. And I intend to
keep on doing it. My cat does not really care if my coffee maker don't
have a clock.

--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 03:53:40
From: Michael Coburn
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:06:23 -0800, travisgod@aol.cominyrface wrote:

>>    What better way to make sure it gets spent?  A lot of that '40%'
>>    have
>> something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
>> account.
>
> Spent?
>
> What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?
>
> So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?
>
> Trav

Import duties, anyone?

--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson


 
Date: 26 Dec 2008 03:52:42
From: Michael Coburn
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:16:17 -0800, travisgod@aol.cominyrface wrote:

> On Dec 24, 7:47 am, Renli <oliver.rich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>     Here is what I think is about to happen.
>>
>>     Obama is probably told every day that the world is being swept by
>> fear, causing (money) velocity to plunge, and he is the only person who
>> can do anything about it. He is the de facto president of the world.
>>
>>     I think Obama and his gang are preparing some kind of PT Barnum
>> spectacular for his inaugural address January 20th.
>>
>>     If it works, (money) velocity will reverse, and we will go back
>>     to
>> where we were August 07 through June 08—meaning the early stages of a
>> runaway inflation, with non-dollar assets heading for the stratosphere.
>> Gold, oil, copper, art, antiques, almost everything you can name will
>> go to new highs within a few months, and the dollar will plunge.
>>
>>     If the PT Barnum spectacular does not work, (money) velocity will
>> continue falling, and we will spiral on down into a depression. Non-
>> dollar assets will collapse even further than they already have, and
>> long term Treasury bonds will continue their ascent.
>>
>>     As far as I know, the only investment plan that minimizes the
>>     risk
>> on both sides of this crisis is Harry Browne’s, which I have written
>> about often.
>
> The only problem is that the debt growth vs GDP growth is reaching
> zero-hour. No additional amount of debt past this event horizon will
> produce an increase in GDP and will, instead, begin decreasing GDP
> because of the interest and service demands.
>
> The world has reached the end of "growth" as an ongoing proposition, for
> now. Given that the entire monetary system is an exponential growth
> animal, it no longer has any relevance within the context of Peak
> conditions. It is collapsing on itself.
>
> Either road now is fatal. All of our entitlements systems, our societal
> model, everything we've known for the 200 year history of the industrial
> age has been built around exponential growth. Deflation has taken hold
> but there is no way around this. There is too much overcapacity. A
> desperate reinflation attempt cannot succeed because there simply is too
> much stuff being produced. We were in a global ponzi for a decade and
> this overhead must be liquidated.

The problem with the model you are attempting to construct is that it
does not rely on a proper definition of inflation. If the amount of
stuff is so great that prices fall then money need to be squirted into
the economy to arrest the downward spiral. That means that the money can
be placed into the economy as much higher and longer unemployment
benefits and nationalized health care payments without causing inflation
as inflation is characteristically defined.

> The sustainable economic consumption pattern of the West cannot even
> REMOTELY support the overcapacity in Asia, and neither can domestic
> demand in those economies. We have millions more cars produced than are
> needed, millions more houses, millions more of everything. The only
> thing we do not have an overabunance of is the oil supply upon which the
> entire growth model is built.

I, and most rational economists will agree with that. Now consider that
the cars we have and the infrastructure we have are not suitable to the
reality of the oil problem or the GW problem. We have a lot of catching
up to do and that means a lot of jobs. A huge number of those jobs will
be in what is now the auto building segment of the economy if we can keep
the things alive until next spring/summer.

> State intervention in economics (the opposite of free markets) has
> produced catastrophic overcapacity in almost everything. The laws of
> supply and demand force a price collapse, job loss, and the other
> trappings of deflation, irrespective of growth in money supply.

Horseshit. The government "intervention" in the economy has been in the
propping up of the "financial sector". That has been true for the last
30 years. The stupidity that says money is wealth is simply false and we
need to learn those facts. If we have too much production then why are
we not cutting the workweek and moving toward a nationalized health
insurance system?

> The
> economics models used by the central planners DID NOT ACCOUNT for a
> ceiling in growth. We have actually, literally left their models
> altogether.
>
> Trav

I would agree with that. But the solution is less work and more leisure
in a non forced way.

--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 14:45:41
From: jpatk
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 25, 10:42=A0am, suds macheath <sudsmcduff19...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> =A0 Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto industry
>
> > related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for t=
he
> > big three.
>
> ---You mean those jobs that the repubs would rather see disappear?
> Especially the southern Repubs in the pockets of foreign manufacturers...
>
> What Mainstream media hasn't mentioned the Bush bailout plan?
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28321668/
>
> http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/819532.html

Please don't confuse Irish Mike with facts.


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 16:32:07
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"travisgod@aol.cominyrface" wrote:
>
> > Yawn. More than likely it will be spent on food, home or vehicle
> > repairs, or in a thrift store to buy newer, used clothes. The truly poor
> > people don't shop at Wal Mart. They scrape by by shopping thrift stores
> > & trading things they can't use with others. They know that the imports
> > are crap, and would rather spend 20 cents or less on the dollar for
> > clean but usable items to stretch their money.
>
> The "truly poor"???
>
> What poor person ever gave someone a job?


Did your parents have any kids that weren't born brain dead? If so,
are they home and can you put one of them at the computer so I don't
waste too much time?

Poor people have to buy food, clothes and personal care items like
everybody else. If you weren't 99.999% brain dead you would realize
that creates jobs in farming, trucking, food processing, manufacturing,
retail and management. That in turn creates jobs in medical care,
insurance & construction industries.

Those people spend that money to buy more goods so yes, the poor
people do contribute jobs.


> Rome tried this too, and everyone went on the dole.


Rome was full of lazy slave owing idiots. Do you own slaves, or are
you a slave? If not, your comparison is worthless.

Sounds like your lazy and jealous. I would prefer to be working but
was told by the VA that I will never be able to again.


> Walmart is the only retailer who's seeing YoY comps increase this
> season. They source their shit from China.


Gee. Maybe that's why I rarely shop there? I wouldn't want to spend
any of my hard earned VA 100% disability pension in China if I can help
it.


For the same reason I don't go to 'Big Lots' and buy any of their
Vietnamese imports.


> Thrift stores?? They get their shit from China too.


Really? China exports used clothes, shoes & household goods with
'Made in America' tags? Who knew? The only place I've seen with
Chinese crap was the Goodwill Store. Everything there is overpriced,
including the 'chinacrapline'


> Consumption is NOT an economy. It's a delusion.


You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy.
You could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.

You are proof of the old saying, the asshole doesn't produce
anything, but if it doesn't do something once in a while, everything
else stops.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 02:28:49
From: GreenDistantStar
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt


Michael A. Terrell wrote:

clipped

> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy.
> You could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.

The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US consumer has been borrowing the
money for the consumption. Now that overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the
behest of the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend their way out of a
recession or depression.

There's something wrong with that picture.

GDS

"Let's roll!"


   
Date: 25 Dec 2008 22:22:01
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"GreenDistantStar" <pde63539@bigpond.net.au > wrote in message
news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> clipped
>
>> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. You
>> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
>> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.
>
> The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
> consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
> overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest of
> the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend their
> way out of a recession or depression.
>
> There's something wrong with that picture.
>
> GDS
>
> "Let's roll!"

First, not all American consumers are living on credit. More than 85% of
American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.

Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements to
buy votes that started this whole financial mess. You've a group of people
who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stupid
to read. They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wanted but
couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.

Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. Cut
corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
itself - as painful as that may be. Inefficient, ineffective, poorly run
businesses are going to fail and the government should get out of the way
and let them fail. This multi-billion dollar bail-out with tax payer money
is the biggest scam pulled on the American people since the bull shit global
warming hysteria.

Irish Mike




    
Date: 28 Dec 2008 04:03:04
From: suds macheath
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
Irish Mike wrote:
> "GreenDistantStar" <pde63539@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:BjX4l.4550$cu.3489@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>
>> clipped
>>
>>> You are the deluded one. Without consumption there is no economy. You
>>> could be the most innovative and efficient manufacturer in the
>>> universe, but if no one consumes your product you don't create any jobs.
>> The manufacturing jobs are the jobs created, and in this case, the US
>> consumer has been borrowing the money for the consumption. Now that
>> overseas borrowings are becoming unavailable, the Fed, at the behest of
>> the US govt, is printing more money, hoping US consumers will spend their
>> way out of a recession or depression.
>>
>> There's something wrong with that picture.
>>
>> GDS
>>
>> "Let's roll!"
>
> First, not all American consumers are living on credit. More than 85% of
> American home owners either own their own homes or are in fixed rate
> mortgages and making the payments in full, on time.
>
> Second, it was the politicians and their policy of giving entitlements to
> buy votes that started this whole financial mess. You've a group of people
> who bought houses they couldn't afford with mortgages they were too stupid
> to read. They were told they were "entitled" to every thing they wanted but
> couldn't afford or were too lazy to work and save to get.
>
> Third, the solution is to get the government out of the free market. Cut
> corporate, business and capital gains taxes and let the economy correct
> itself - as painful as that may be. Inefficient, ineffective, poorly run
> businesses are going to fail and the government should get out of the way
> and let them fail. This multi-billion dollar bail-out with tax payer money
> is the biggest scam pulled on the American people since the bull shit global
> warming hysteria.


http://www.slate.com/id/2202489/

A source of mild entertainment amid the financial carnage has been
watching libertarians scurrying to explain how the global financial
crisis is the result of too much government intervention rather than too
little. One line of argument casts as villain the Community Reinvestment
Act, which prevents banks from "redlining" minority neighborhoods as not
creditworthy. Another theory blames Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for
causing the trouble by subsidizing and securitizing mortgages with an
implicit government guarantee. An alternative thesis is that past
bailouts encouraged investors to behave recklessly in anticipation of a
taxpayer rescue.


There are rebuttals to these claims and rejoinders to the rebuttals. But
to summarize, the libertarian apologetics fall wildly short of providing
any convincing explanation for what went wrong. The argument as a whole
is reminiscent of wearying dorm-room debates that took place circa 1989
about whether the fall of the Soviet bloc demonstrated the failure of
communism. Academic Marxists were never going to be convinced that
anything that happened in the real world could invalidate their belief
system. Utopians of the right, libertarians are just as convinced that
their ideas have yet to be tried, and that they would work beautifully
if we could only just have a do-over of human history. Like all true
ideologues, they find a way to interpret mounting evidence of error as
proof that they were right all along.

The best thing you can say about libertarians is that because their
views derive from abstract theory, they tend to be highly principled and
rigorous in their logic. Those outside of government at places like the
Cato Institute and Reason magazine are just as consistent in their
opposition to government bailouts as to the kind of regulation that
might have prevented one from being necessary. "Let failed banks fail"
is the purist line. This approach would deliver a wonderful lesson in
personal responsibility, creating thousands of new jobs in the
soup-kitchen and food-pantry industries.

The worst thing you can say about libertarians is that they are
intellectually immature, frozen in the worldview many of them absorbed
from reading Ayn Rand novels in high school. Like other ideologues,
libertarians react to the world's failing to conform to their model by
asking where the world went wrong. Their heroic view of capitalism makes
it difficult for them to accept that markets can be irrational,
misunderstand risk, and misallocate resources or that financial systems
without vigorous government oversight and the capacity for pragmatic
intervention constitute a recipe for disaster. They are bankrupt, and
this time, there will be no bailout.


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 09:48:51
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
> =A0 =A0Yawn. More than likely it will be spent on food, home or vehicle
> repairs, or in a thrift store to buy newer, used clothes. The truly poor
> people don't shop at Wal Mart. They scrape by by shopping thrift stores
> & trading things they can't use with others. =A0They know that the import=
s
> are crap, and would rather spend 20 cents or less on the dollar for
> clean but usable items to stretch their money.

The "truly poor"???

What poor person ever gave someone a job?

Rome tried this too, and everyone went on the dole.

Walmart is the only retailer who's seeing YoY comps increase this
season. They source their shit from China. Thrift stores?? They get
their shit from China too.

Consumption is NOT an economy. It's a delusion.

Trav


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 08:44:20
From: Renli
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 26, 12:21=A0am, buleg...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> On Dec 24, 7:47=A0am, Usagi <oliver.rich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> (Still 1d) Usagi,

I gave up for a while. I'll be back to 4d in 2009 no problem, like I
was years ago. I did it before. I will do it again. In fact I think I
will go quite beyond 4d in 2009. We will see.

Actually I'm amazed I got up to 2d on my comeback last month before a
general lack of attention and care brought me back down to 1d. I think
I've stabilized at 1d now. Quite amazing for someone who basically
didn't play for 2 years.

I've been busy.

Anyways,

> This mess was caused the same way that the Great Depression was
> caused.

I completely agree. Here:
http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/fsn2008-1220-2.mp3

(original site: http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html, the above
link is from the Dec. 20th edition).

> I think the good news, relative to the great depression, is that we
> possess the means to produce what we need. =A0We can grow the food, make
> the machines, build the planes, but there is such a guessing game
> going on as to who controls what and who really owns something, that
> it will screw things up for a while.

Agreed. Let's hope for the best.

-


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 08:21:26
From:
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 24, 7:47=A0am, Usagi <oliver.rich...@gmail.com > wrote:
>

(Still 1d) Usagi,

This mess was caused the same way that the Great Depression was
caused. Namely, a massive debt buildup prior to the pop. There is so
much bad debt that must be written off that its not funny. That bad
debt is in the form of bonds and other financial instruments that
millions of people are counting on for their retirement and running
their businesses. Funny thing is, the money that everyone thinks is
there - isn't. The debts won't be paid in full and therefore everyone
that owns the debt will have to readjust their lives based upon how
much wealth they actually have.

I think the good news, relative to the great depression, is that we
possess the means to produce what we need. We can grow the food, make
the machines, build the planes, but there is such a guessing game
going on as to who controls what and who really owns something, that
it will screw things up for a while.


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 10:38:37
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"travisgod@aol.cominyrface" wrote:
>
> > What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%' have
> > something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> > account.
>
> Spent?
>
> What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?
>
> So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?


Yawn. More than likely it will be spent on food, home or vehicle
repairs, or in a thrift store to buy newer, used clothes. The truly poor
people don't shop at Wal Mart. They scrape by by shopping thrift stores
& trading things they can't use with others. They know that the imports
are crap, and would rather spend 20 cents or less on the dollar for
clean but usable items to stretch their money.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 07:16:17
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 24, 7:47=A0am, Renli <oliver.rich...@gmail.com > wrote:
> =A0 =A0 Here is what I think is about to happen.
>
> =A0 =A0 Obama is probably told every day that the world is being swept by
> fear, causing (money) velocity to plunge, and he is the only person
> who can do anything about it. He is the de facto president of the
> world.
>
> =A0 =A0 I think Obama and his gang are preparing some kind of PT Barnum
> spectacular for his inaugural address January 20th.
>
> =A0 =A0 If it works, (money) velocity will reverse, and we will go back t=
o
> where we were August 07 through June 08=97meaning the early stages of a
> runaway inflation, with non-dollar assets heading for the
> stratosphere. Gold, oil, copper, art, antiques, almost everything you
> can name will go to new highs within a few months, and the dollar will
> plunge.
>
> =A0 =A0 If the PT Barnum spectacular does not work, (money) velocity will
> continue falling, and we will spiral on down into a depression. Non-
> dollar assets will collapse even further than they already have, and
> long term Treasury bonds will continue their ascent.
>
> =A0 =A0 As far as I know, the only investment plan that minimizes the ris=
k
> on both sides of this crisis is Harry Browne=92s, which I have written
> about often.

The only problem is that the debt growth vs GDP growth is reaching
zero-hour. No additional amount of debt past this event horizon will
produce an increase in GDP and will, instead, begin decreasing GDP
because of the interest and service demands.

The world has reached the end of "growth" as an ongoing proposition,
for now. Given that the entire monetary system is an exponential
growth animal, it no longer has any relevance within the context of
Peak conditions. It is collapsing on itself.

Either road now is fatal. All of our entitlements systems, our
societal model, everything we've known for the 200 year history of the
industrial age has been built around exponential growth. Deflation
has taken hold but there is no way around this. There is too much
overcapacity. A desperate reinflation attempt cannot succeed because
there simply is too much stuff being produced. We were in a global
ponzi for a decade and this overhead must be liquidated.

The sustainable economic consumption pattern of the West cannot even
REMOTELY support the overcapacity in Asia, and neither can domestic
demand in those economies. We have millions more cars produced than
are needed, millions more houses, millions more of everything. The
only thing we do not have an overabunance of is the oil supply upon
which the entire growth model is built.

State intervention in economics (the opposite of free markets) has
produced catastrophic overcapacity in almost everything. The laws of
supply and demand force a price collapse, job loss, and the other
trappings of deflation, irrespective of growth in money supply. The
economics models used by the central planners DID NOT ACCOUNT for a
ceiling in growth. We have actually, literally left their models
altogether.

Trav


 
Date: 25 Dec 2008 07:06:23
From: travisgod@aol.cominyrface
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
> =A0 =A0What better way to make sure it gets spent? =A0A lot of that '40%'=
have
> something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> account.

Spent?

What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?

So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?

Trav


  
Date: 26 Dec 2008 13:35:59
From: Frithiof Jensen
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

<travisgod@aol.com > skrev i meddelelsen
news:dd0ab46f-93c6-49ad-ac59-126aae56b5b8@h20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

> What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?

The poor employ drug dealers, social workers and law enforcement, not ;-)

> So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?

Thats the deal: China and Saudi must keep buying negative-interest bonds
from the US treasury or the USD is toast. So Obama will print them nice
folks some free USD to buy them with.



   
Date: 26 Dec 2008 12:28:40
From: Spehro Pefhany
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 13:35:59 +0100, the renowned "Frithiof Jensen"
<frithiof.jensen@diespammerdie.jensen.tdcadsl.dk > wrote:

>
><travisgod@aol.com> skrev i meddelelsen
>news:dd0ab46f-93c6-49ad-ac59-126aae56b5b8@h20g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
>> What poor person EVER gave someone else a job?
>
>The poor employ drug dealers, social workers and law enforcement, not ;-)
>
>> So, what, the money goes STRAIGHT TO CHINA?
>
>Thats the deal: China and Saudi must keep buying negative-interest bonds
>from the US treasury or the USD is toast. So Obama will print them nice
>folks some free USD to buy them with.

The Japanese are talking about a "Marshall Plan" to rebuild the US. If
they teamed up with the other major creditors (including China, of
course) it might be possible. Just like the US helped (and helped
themselves to(o)) Europe after WWII.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aFgHlh.Dn4Lc&refer=asia


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com


 
Date: 24 Dec 2008 07:38:26
From: Renli
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Dec 24, 11:30=A0pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
>
> (quoted from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-infla=
tion-laun...)
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>
> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=3DNYBOT_dx

Reverse cup and handle.

It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.

-


  
Date: 24 Dec 2008 18:54:07
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:3d5512d5-470a-40e2-aa80-9900d9c73df0@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
>
> (quoted
> from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-laun...)
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>
> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx

Reverse cup and handle.

It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.

The Obama press corps has been working hard to report the worst possible
financial news leading up to The Messiah's coronation. I can't predict what
the stock market will do but you can bet the main stream liberal media will
start reporting nothing but sunshine and good financial news effective
1/20/09. Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto industry
related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for the
big three.

Irish Mike

-




   
Date: 25 Dec 2008 11:42:12
From: suds macheath
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto industry
> related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for the
> big three.

---You mean those jobs that the repubs would rather see disappear?
Especially the southern Repubs in the pockets of foreign manufacturers...


What Mainstream media hasn't mentioned the Bush bailout plan?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28321668/

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/819532.html




   
Date: 24 Dec 2008 17:25:32
From:
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:54:07 -0500, "Irish Mike"
<mjostar@ameritech.net > wrote:

>
>"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3d5512d5-470a-40e2-aa80-9900d9c73df0@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> (quoted
>> from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-laun...)
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>>
>> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx
>
>Reverse cup and handle.
>
>It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
>see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
>88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
>league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.
>
>The Obama press corps has been working hard to report the worst possible
>financial news leading up to The Messiah's coronation. I can't predict what
>the stock market will do but you can bet the main stream liberal media will
>start reporting nothing but sunshine and good financial news effective
>1/20/09. Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto industry
>related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for the
>big three.

Bush saved nothing. He just put off the inevitable until after he's
out of office so the Republicans can blame it all on Obama.

>
>Irish Mike
>
>-
>


    
Date: 24 Dec 2008 19:55:19
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

<hal@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:imk5l4p9grk99boplihn1csn14tn1mfn56@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:54:07 -0500, "Irish Mike"
> <mjostar@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:3d5512d5-470a-40e2-aa80-9900d9c73df0@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>>On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> (quoted
>>> from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-laun...)
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>>>
>>> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx
>>
>>Reverse cup and handle.
>>
>>It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
>>see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
>>88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
>>league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.
>>
>>The Obama press corps has been working hard to report the worst possible
>>financial news leading up to The Messiah's coronation. I can't predict
>>what
>>the stock market will do but you can bet the main stream liberal media
>>will
>>start reporting nothing but sunshine and good financial news effective
>>1/20/09. Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto industry
>>related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for the
>>big three.
>
> Bush saved nothing. He just put off the inevitable until after he's
> out of office so the Republicans can blame it all on Obama.

Well, Obama promised to "save" 2,000,000 jobs. So I guess it doesn't count
as a "save" unless he is the one doing the bail-out. The only thing dumber
than the $720B bail-outs is the $800B "stimulus" spending Obama has planned.
BTW, a lot of that "stimulus" money will be in the form of checks to the 40%
of people who currently pay zero income tax.

Irish Mike




     
Date: 24 Dec 2008 19:58:39
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

Irish Mike wrote:
>
> <hal@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:imk5l4p9grk99boplihn1csn14tn1mfn56@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:54:07 -0500, "Irish Mike"
> > <mjostar@ameritech.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:3d5512d5-470a-40e2-aa80-9900d9c73df0@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> >>On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> (quoted
> >>> from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-laun...)
> >>>
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
> >>>
> >>> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx
> >>
> >>Reverse cup and handle.
> >>
> >>It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
> >>see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
> >>88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
> >>league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.
> >>
> >>The Obama press corps has been working hard to report the worst possible
> >>financial news leading up to The Messiah's coronation. I can't predict
> >>what
> >>the stock market will do but you can bet the main stream liberal media
> >>will
> >>start reporting nothing but sunshine and good financial news effective
> >>1/20/09. Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto industry
> >>related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for the
> >>big three.
> >
> > Bush saved nothing. He just put off the inevitable until after he's
> > out of office so the Republicans can blame it all on Obama.
>
> Well, Obama promised to "save" 2,000,000 jobs. So I guess it doesn't count
> as a "save" unless he is the one doing the bail-out. The only thing dumber
> than the $720B bail-outs is the $800B "stimulus" spending Obama has planned.
> BTW, a lot of that "stimulus" money will be in the form of checks to the 40%
> of people who currently pay zero income tax.


What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%' have
something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
account.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


      
Date: 26 Dec 2008 13:32:45
From: Frithiof Jensen
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net > skrev i meddelelsen
news:dYydnSg2AbwiR8_UnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%' have
> something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> account.

Sure it will: The numbered accounts in Belgium belonging to afghan and
kosovar drug lords!



       
Date: 26 Dec 2008 11:59:52
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

Frithiof Jensen wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:dYydnSg2AbwiR8_UnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >
> > What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%' have
> > something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> > account.
>
> Sure it will: The numbered accounts in Belgium belonging to afghan and
> kosovar drug lords!


Are you their local agent? Do you report all that money to the IRS?


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.


      
Date: 25 Dec 2008 04:39:41
From: Joel Olson
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:dYydnSg2AbwiR8_UnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> Irish Mike wrote:
>>
>> <hal@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:imk5l4p9grk99boplihn1csn14tn1mfn56@4ax.com...
>> > On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:54:07 -0500, "Irish Mike"
>> > <mjostar@ameritech.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:3d5512d5-470a-40e2-aa80-9900d9c73df0@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>> >>On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> (quoted
>> >>> from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-laun...)
>> >>>
>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>> >>>
>> >>> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx
>> >>
>> >>Reverse cup and handle.
>> >>
>> >>It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
>> >>see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
>> >>88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
>> >>league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.
>> >>
>> >>The Obama press corps has been working hard to report the worst
>> >>possible
>> >>financial news leading up to The Messiah's coronation. I can't predict
>> >>what
>> >>the stock market will do but you can bet the main stream liberal media
>> >>will
>> >>start reporting nothing but sunshine and good financial news effective
>> >>1/20/09. Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto
>> >>industry
>> >>related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for
>> >>the
>> >>big three.
>> >
>> > Bush saved nothing. He just put off the inevitable until after he's
>> > out of office so the Republicans can blame it all on Obama.
>>
>> Well, Obama promised to "save" 2,000,000 jobs. So I guess it doesn't
>> count
>> as a "save" unless he is the one doing the bail-out. The only thing
>> dumber
>> than the $720B bail-outs is the $800B "stimulus" spending Obama has
>> planned.
>> BTW, a lot of that "stimulus" money will be in the form of checks to the
>> 40%
>> of people who currently pay zero income tax.
>
>
> What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%' have
> something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> account.
>

Where's the line between those who have and those who do not have
credit cards?






       
Date: 26 Dec 2008 16:12:08
From: mccard
Subject: Re: click2pay???
Glad it worked out for you. Nothing like going to the source for
information.


"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net > wrote in message
news:1Yb5l.6655$an4.3833@newsfe08.iad...
> Well, I just emailed click2pay, but here's what Stars wrote me. Stars
> seems to imply I can do it.
>
> Mel
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Regarding your query, unfortunately MoneyGram is no longer an option to
> deposit on our site, however, doue to the restricted initial limits using
> Instant eChecks, we recommend to use Click2Pay.
>
> Click2Pay is an established international electronic wallet, that you can
> maintain in your local currency depending on your country and fund by
> transferring funds from your credit card. You can use Click2Pay for secure
> on-line purchases without worrying about disclosing your credit card
> information.
>
> To create a new account with Click2Pay US players can only register by
> clicking on the Quick Sign up link available at the PokerStars cashier,
> then fill the registration form that will pop up on your screen. Once you
> establish and confirm your Click2Pay account, it takes only seconds to
> make transfers to your PokerStars account by selecting the Click2Pay
> option from the PokerStars Cashier screen. To make the deposit request at
> PokerStars use the Click2Pay information required and the money will be
> credited on real time.
>
> Please make sure to provide a phone number to be contacted by Click2Pay
> Support, as part of the verification process.
>
> If you use this option to make a deposit at PokerStars you will be able to
> withdraw funds through a Cashier's Check which will be sent according to
> your instructions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
> "mccard" <no_won@no_won.none> wrote in message
> news:YMb5l.10874$fs1.10099@newsfe05.iad...
>>
>> "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote in message
>> news:NGb5l.6604$an4.1069@newsfe08.iad...
>>> Does this work in the USA to fund Stars?
>>>
>>> How easy it is to sign up and what are the fees?
>>>
>>> I looked at the click2pay site and it is not all that clear. They seem
>>> to imply that AFTER you sign up they MIGHT require additional crap to be
>>> mailed in. I'm not sure what they require, if anything, and I see no
>>> mention of fees.
>>>
>>>
>> they aren't clear at all but the last time I checked with PS, US Players
>> could not use click2pay.
>
>



       
Date: 25 Dec 2008 10:08:01
From: Michael A. Terrell
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

Joel Olson wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:dYydnSg2AbwiR8_UnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >
> > Irish Mike wrote:
> >>
> >> <hal@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >> news:imk5l4p9grk99boplihn1csn14tn1mfn56@4ax.com...
> >> > On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:54:07 -0500, "Irish Mike"
> >> > <mjostar@ameritech.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:3d5512d5-470a-40e2-aa80-9900d9c73df0@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> >> >>On Dec 24, 11:30 pm, "Joel Olson" <joel_ol...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> (quoted
> >> >>> from:http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-laun...)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx
> >> >>
> >> >>Reverse cup and handle.
> >> >>
> >> >>It's a head fake, and you can take that to the bank. You're going to
> >> >>see a bounce back up to 86-88 (around jan 20th) where people will take
> >> >>88 as a confirmation and buy in, and then it's game over as the big
> >> >>league sells into the conf. The end. That's how I'm calling it.
> >> >>
> >> >>The Obama press corps has been working hard to report the worst
> >> >>possible
> >> >>financial news leading up to The Messiah's coronation. I can't predict
> >> >>what
> >> >>the stock market will do but you can bet the main stream liberal media
> >> >>will
> >> >>start reporting nothing but sunshine and good financial news effective
> >> >>1/20/09. Mean while, not a single word about the 2,000,000 auto
> >> >>industry
> >> >>related jobs President Bush saved with his approval of a bail out for
> >> >>the
> >> >>big three.
> >> >
> >> > Bush saved nothing. He just put off the inevitable until after he's
> >> > out of office so the Republicans can blame it all on Obama.
> >>
> >> Well, Obama promised to "save" 2,000,000 jobs. So I guess it doesn't
> >> count
> >> as a "save" unless he is the one doing the bail-out. The only thing
> >> dumber
> >> than the $720B bail-outs is the $800B "stimulus" spending Obama has
> >> planned.
> >> BTW, a lot of that "stimulus" money will be in the form of checks to the
> >> 40%
> >> of people who currently pay zero income tax.
> >
> >
> > What better way to make sure it gets spent? A lot of that '40%' have
> > something they need and can't afford, so it won't go into a savings
> > account.
> >
>
> Where's the line between those who have and those who do not have
> credit cards?


I'm almost retirement age & I've never had a credit card. What's
more, I don't want one.


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Date: 24 Dec 2008 09:30:07
From: Joel Olson
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas, and fasten your Seatbelt

"Renli" <oliver.richman@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:d85508ed-ecec-4b11-a953-dd03930b2b31@u18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Here is what I think is about to happen.

Obama is probably told every day that the world is being swept by
fear, causing (money) velocity to plunge, and he is the only person
who can do anything about it. He is the de facto president of the
world.

I think Obama and his gang are preparing some kind of PT Barnum
spectacular for his inaugural address January 20th.

If it works, (money) velocity will reverse, and we will go back to
where we were August 07 through June 08meaning the early stages of a
runaway inflation, with non-dollar assets heading for the
stratosphere. Gold, oil, copper, art, antiques, almost everything you
can name will go to new highs within a few months, and the dollar will
plunge.

If the PT Barnum spectacular does not work, (money) velocity will
continue falling, and we will spiral on down into a depression. Non-
dollar assets will collapse even further than they already have, and
long term Treasury bonds will continue their ascent.

As far as I know, the only investment plan that minimizes the risk
on both sides of this crisis is Harry Brownes, which I have written
about often.

I wish I could be more help. In the 4/07 and 6/07 EWRs, I wrote
about the fall of the US Empire. Now I think its begun, and it wont
be any more fun than the fall of the Roman Empire was in 476 AD.
Todays economic chaos is just the economic symptom of this monumental
event.

In short, the fall of the US empire is, I think, baked in the
cake, as certain as anything in human affairs can be. The specific
form it takes during the next two years or so will be determined
mostly by Obamas performance on January 20th.

A day or two after Obamas inaugural, I plan to give my
subscribers an analysis and forecast for what I think is coming. It
will be posted on the Subscriber Access part of the web site.

But regardless of what happens, keep this in mind. We got into
this runaway deflation through the stupidity of the demigods in
Washington. Instead of firing most or all their ammunition at the
deflation as soon as it arose, they fired a round here and there,
never producing an improvement large enough to be noticeable to the
general public. The lack of results, time after time, has demoralized
the whole world population, causing velocity to drop further.

Its been similar to trying to stop a brush fire not by dumping a
deluge of water on it all at once but with one bucket every hour.

In other words, Washingtons emergency measures have made the
emergency worse.

Expecting the new crew to do better would be naive, which I will
explain in the January EWR. During his campaign, Obama promised
change! but now he is hiring the same people who have roamed the
halls of power for decades and who played no small part in creating
this disaster.

The bottom line is, be ready for an even wilder ride than weve
already had. Obamas PT Barnum spectacular could send us in the
direction of almost any conceivable fate.

Your next EWR is scheduled to arrive the first few days of
January. And, again, look for my analysis and forecast for the results
of Obamas inaugural speech on the Subscriber Access part of the web
site a day or two after January 20th.

Merry Christmas, and fasten your seatbelt.

(quoted from:
http://meltdown2011.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/pt-barnum-inflation-launched-jan-20th/)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_dx