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Date: 29 Jan 2009 20:51:16
From: MMelia
Subject: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
What am I suppose to do?

My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
(including me OTB) Pot is $5

Flop K 5 4

checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call

turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.

Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.

I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.

Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 12:46:35
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 29 2009 10:51 PM, MMelia wrote:

> What am I suppose to do?
>
> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5
>
> Flop K 5 4
>
> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
>
> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
>
> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
>
> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
>
> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?


You got the best of this hand unless he had a wrap for the straight draw,
or an additional 2 pair/lower set. The villain you lost to was roughly
5:1 against hitting, and got paid exactly 5:1. He didn't make any money
drawing. On average, played that way, you make money on that hand from
the preflop action.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 12:59:56
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 30 2009 2:46 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> On Jan 29 2009 10:51 PM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > What am I suppose to do?
> >
> > My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> > (including me OTB) Pot is $5
> >
> > Flop K 5 4
> >
> > checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
> >
> > turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> > because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
> >
> > Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> > flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> > When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> > see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> > bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> > calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
> >
> > I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
> >
> > Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?
>
>
> You got the best of this hand unless he had a wrap for the straight draw,
> or an additional 2 pair/lower set. The villain you lost to was roughly
> 5:1 against hitting, and got paid exactly 5:1. He didn't make any money
> drawing. On average, played that way, you make money on that hand from
> the preflop action.
>
> Wayne Vinson
> http://cardsharp.org/
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

Actually, looks like it's more like 4:1 against him winning. So he did
make a little on average. You make a little on average too though even if
you always pay off.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 12:37:19
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
Thanks for all the replies.

On Jan 29 2009 11:51 PM, MMelia wrote:

> What am I suppose to do?
>
> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5
>
> Flop K 5 4
>
> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
>
> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
>
> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
>
> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
>
> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 07:27:25
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 29 2009 10:51 PM, MMelia wrote:

> What am I suppose to do?

You're supposed to get your stack in repeatedly as a 1% favorite and hope
things work out for you.

> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5

As grouchy said, you could re-raise here...depending on my mood and the
table I may just call as well.

> Flop K 5 4

Great, at this point you might as well sit out and transfer some random
player in the hand the rest of your buyin.

> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call

At this point you should be putting the caller on a hand.

> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.

So the 3 hits and he shoves. What does he have? Straight, lower set,
idiot with AAxx are all possibilities. What do you know about his play
prior to this? Some players in PLO will just bet as soon as they get a
hand but others will try their best to slow play their way to the rail.
Playing this hand in a vacuum I probably find a way to fold here, but
knowing more about the player could lead to a call.

> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
>
> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
>
> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol?

I seem to remember this one guy who had all these PLO videos on his
blog...Manifesto something or other.

As Grouchy said, it isn't holdem. Run some hands through something like
twodimes.net and see how the match ups are totally different than holdem.
Run this one:

Kh Kd Qd Jc
vs.
Ts 9s 8c 7c

Flop Ks 7s 6h

Should open up your eyes a bit.

> Insults?

http://amishrakefight.org/gfy

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 06:26:54
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 29 2009 10:51 PM, MMelia wrote:

> What am I suppose to do?
>
> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5
>
> Flop K 5 4
>
> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
>
> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
>
> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
>
> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
>
> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?

Why did they check around? They either had nothing or they wanted to keep
the cost of drawing down by not adding to the pot.

I think what you saw was par for the course. You are trying to protect
your set and they have a draw and maybe a redraw. A deal breaker card
hits and makes your opponent a straight. If he has 67 and there is no
flush draw he is only afraid of a paired board and makes you pay to see if
you can get lucky.

Expect this to happen all the time in PLO and just lay it down. It will
be your turn to make a pair on the turn and reverse the situation soon
enough and whether you make money is how many times you are on the side
with the best odds. Drawing at a FH against a made straight is not it.

I don't really know what the pro's would say, but half pot would make the
people without a draw fold and cost you less if the draws hit. Then if
something like a Jack hits, you are in the drivers seat.

You say that you would fold on a $5 bet if you had that draw? Maybe, but
you have to draw at something or you will go broke in PLO IMO. Heads up
against a set I like my chances with a wrap with maybe a redraw to a
flush.

Just some of my learnings whether they are textbook or not.

Amazon has plenty of Omaha books and information from feedback to help you
decide which to buy.

Search for E R Hutchinson and he has a point system for starting hands
that may help.

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 06:58:48
From: greystoke9
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 30 2009 9:26 AM, Will_gamble wrote:

> On Jan 29 2009 10:51 PM, MMelia wrote:
>
> > What am I suppose to do?
> >
> > My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> > (including me OTB) Pot is $5
> >
> > Flop K 5 4
> >
> > checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
> >
> > turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> > because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
> >
> > Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> > flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> > When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> > see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> > bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> > calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
> >
> > I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
> >
> > Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?
>
> Why did they check around? They either had nothing or they wanted to keep
> the cost of drawing down by not adding to the pot.
>
> I think what you saw was par for the course. You are trying to protect
> your set and they have a draw and maybe a redraw. A deal breaker card
> hits and makes your opponent a straight. If he has 67 and there is no
> flush draw he is only afraid of a paired board and makes you pay to see if
> you can get lucky.
>
> Expect this to happen all the time in PLO and just lay it down. It will
> be your turn to make a pair on the turn and reverse the situation soon
> enough and whether you make money is how many times you are on the side
> with the best odds. Drawing at a FH against a made straight is not it.
>
> I don't really know what the pro's would say, but half pot would make the
> people without a draw fold and cost you less if the draws hit. Then if
> something like a Jack hits, you are in the drivers seat.
>
> You say that you would fold on a $5 bet if you had that draw? Maybe, but
> you have to draw at something or you will go broke in PLO IMO. Heads up
> against a set I like my chances with a wrap with maybe a redraw to a
> flush.
>
> Just some of my learnings whether they are textbook or not.
>
> Amazon has plenty of Omaha books and information from feedback to help you
> decide which to buy.
>
> Search for E R Hutchinson and he has a point system for starting hands
> that may help.

So lets say the turn did make him a FH. He bet 5 on the flop - what kind
of bet does he put in on the turn if he fills up?

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 07:44:55
From: Will_gamble
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 30 2009 8:58 AM, greystoke9 wrote:

> On Jan 30 2009 9:26 AM, Will_gamble wrote:
>
> > On Jan 29 2009 10:51 PM, MMelia wrote:
> >
> > > What am I suppose to do?
> > >
> > > My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> > > (including me OTB) Pot is $5
> > >
> > > Flop K 5 4
> > >
> > > checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
> > >
> > > turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> > > because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
> > >
> > > Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> > > flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> > > When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> > > see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> > > bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and
flush
> > > calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
> > >
> > > I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
> > >
> > > Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?
> >
> > Why did they check around? They either had nothing or they wanted to keep
> > the cost of drawing down by not adding to the pot.
> >
> > I think what you saw was par for the course. You are trying to protect
> > your set and they have a draw and maybe a redraw. A deal breaker card
> > hits and makes your opponent a straight. If he has 67 and there is no
> > flush draw he is only afraid of a paired board and makes you pay to see if
> > you can get lucky.
> >
> > Expect this to happen all the time in PLO and just lay it down. It will
> > be your turn to make a pair on the turn and reverse the situation soon
> > enough and whether you make money is how many times you are on the side
> > with the best odds. Drawing at a FH against a made straight is not it.
> >
> > I don't really know what the pro's would say, but half pot would make the
> > people without a draw fold and cost you less if the draws hit. Then if
> > something like a Jack hits, you are in the drivers seat.
> >
> > You say that you would fold on a $5 bet if you had that draw? Maybe, but
> > you have to draw at something or you will go broke in PLO IMO. Heads up
> > against a set I like my chances with a wrap with maybe a redraw to a
> > flush.
> >
> > Just some of my learnings whether they are textbook or not.
> >
> > Amazon has plenty of Omaha books and information from feedback to help you
> > decide which to buy.
> >
> > Search for E R Hutchinson and he has a point system for starting hands
> > that may help.
>
> So lets say the turn did make him a FH. He bet 5 on the flop - what kind
> of bet does he put in on the turn if he fills up?

What ever you think he will call. I might check check if I thought he
would quit if I bet and try to make him think he could bluff me off
thinking I was on a draw. I would also be hoping he would make his
straight on the river.

One thing I hate about poker theory and advice is that any advice works
differently depending on the distribution of cards, so there is no one
correct answer most of the time.

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 07:04:20
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 30 2009 9:58 AM, greystoke9 wrote:

> So lets say the turn did make him a FH. He bet 5 on the flop - what kind
> of bet does he put in on the turn if he fills up?

The villian has only one pot sized bet left. Ship it.

There are times to get fancy with bet sizing, this to be doesn't strike me
as one. If he called a pot bet with a straight draw on the flop, chances
are he'll do it again on the turn.

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 06:07:28
From: GrouchySmurf1002
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
On Jan 29 2009 11:51 PM, MMelia wrote:

> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5

I could make a case for re-raising here, but no issues given the lack of
flush draw.

Incidentally, raise + 4 callers = $6.25. I'll assume it's 3 callers.

> Flop K 5 4
>
> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call

No issues. Position + nuts = good spot to pot. If it were K83, I'd
probably go with a 1/2 pot bet or so, maybe less. Same bet I'd make if
I was holding napkins.

> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.

Well yes, if you're sure he made the straight, it's a fold here since you
don't have the odds to draw to the full house. You have to be pretty
sure though, if it's at all possible he has a hand like 2334, AK53, or a
bunch of other random hands, then I don't think you can fold.

> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet.

This is a pretty common occurrence in PLO. Nuts on flop are almost
always vulnerable. The real key to PLO is to flop the nuts + redraws.
You can't think of it as "costing me my flop bet" though. Your bet on
the flop was a profitable one, unless he has a big wrap like 2367.

> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down?

Usually not. But be prepared to play alot of big pots with top set vs
big draw. This isn't holdem, you're not gonna get to ship your money in
very often has a 4:1 (or larger) favorite. Lots of 60-40s and worse.
PLO is a gamb000ly game, plain and simple. Profitable, but gamb000ly.

> I can't see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot
sized
> bets on the flop with draws.

This doesn't hurt as long as they're not getting odds. FTOP and all that.

> I could see a draw like a straight and flush calling, but usually they only
have a straight or flush draw, not both.

See above. This is a good thing, assuming your bet sizing is proper.

> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.

If you're trying to translate hand strengths post flop from HE to PLO, no,
you're not.

> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?

Google Rolf Slotbloom. Probably should buy his book too if you're that
interested in improving.

The vices are always good too.

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Date: 30 Jan 2009 00:44:21
From: MZB
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
WTF is this poker shit doing on this newsgroup?

Mel
"MMelia" <a4f63df@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:3jda56x6iv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> What am I suppose to do?
>
> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5
>
> Flop K 5 4
>
> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
>
> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
>
> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
>
> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
>
> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?
>
> ----
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com
>
>




  
Date: 30 Jan 2009 03:27:18
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
Crap... I meant to put it in rec.basket.weaving. Didn't mean to confuse
anyone... my bad.

On Jan 30 2009 12:44 AM, MZB wrote:

> WTF is this poker shit doing on this newsgroup?
>
> Mel
> "MMelia" <a4f63df@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message
> news:3jda56x6iv.ln2@recgroups.com...
> > What am I suppose to do?
> >
> > My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> > (including me OTB) Pot is $5
> >
> > Flop K 5 4
> >
> > checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
> >
> > turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> > because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
> >
> > Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> > flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> > When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> > see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> > bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> > calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
> >
> > I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
> >
> > Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?
> >

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Date: 29 Jan 2009 21:20:32
From: RGP Loner
Subject: Re: I'm getting owned in PL Omaha
Lower your stakes...Speaking of which , Can I get a steak?
On Jan 29 2009 9:51 PM, MMelia wrote:

> What am I suppose to do?
>
> My cards KKQJ Rainbow. Pre-flop raise to 1.25 gets called by 4.
> (including me OTB) Pot is $5
>
> Flop K 5 4
>
> checks around to me I pot it... $5 one call
>
> turn 3... guy bets 15 all-in at me... he made the str8. I got to see it
> because like the dumb ass that I truly am -- I called.
>
> Constant theme in my game. I flop good and get out drawn costing me my
> flop pot bet. In this hand I called the turn and ate the full amount.
> When there is a draw and I flop the top set should I slow down? I can't
> see giving them a free card, but they always seem to call the pot sized
> bets on the flop with draws. I could see a draw like a straight and flush
> calling, but usually they only have a straight or flush draw, not both.
>
> I'm probably not understanding this game clearly.
>
> Any good Omaha sites? Books? Advice? Hookers? Drugs? Alcohol? Insults?

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