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Date: 27 Jan 2009 09:45:01
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Change of hand values warning poker content
One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand due
to the number of players in the pot.

As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the weak
starting hands goes up. This is very true in a tight game. Long ago that
is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool. It was not to show the
great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
had an ace.
In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop chances
are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full of
paints. Using modern software that gives odds based on the other players
hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of a
hand in tight games. I wish someone would/could put something togehter
that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider the
type of game.

I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding aces
pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of other
players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000 in
this very tight game that has very few large pots.
Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see what
it would really look like. The very first hand set I entered really blew
me away. I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where hands
yoou could see people getting all in with. I know I will get a ton of
people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't care.
I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
that is the nature of many on RGP.
I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data mine
for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being. I was pretty sure it
would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it turned out
to be./

Anyway here are the hands and results. This should help many understand
how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 06.560% 00.98% 05.58% 1968 11242.80 {AcAd }
Hand 1: 07.787% 02.20% 05.58% 4438 11242.80 { AhAs }
Hand 2: 10.026% 09.99% 00.04% 20110 80.30 { KcKd }
Hand 3: 08.975% 08.94% 00.04% 17993 80.30 { QcQd }
Hand 4: 04.763% 02.43% 02.34% 4884 4707.80 { JcTc }
Hand 5: 15.779% 15.76% 00.02% 31736 39.80 { 9c9d }
Hand 6: 13.817% 13.80% 00.02% 27784 39.80 { 8c8d }
Hand 7: 02.539% 00.20% 02.34% 406 4707.80 { JsTs }
Hand 8: 05.257% 05.20% 00.06% 10465 120.80 { KsQs }
Hand 9: 24.496% 24.48% 00.02% 49290 39.80 { 6h4h }

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 10:37:35
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 11:45 AM, Arlo-Payne wrote:

> is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool. It was not to show the
> great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
> had an ace.

See Arlo what you don't get is while 64 used to be a good hand, 6c3c, aka
The Morphy, has far surpassed it in both pure strength and mysticism. If
you like I can set you up on a payment plan for Morphy dues. Let me know.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 10:19:53
From: Ben
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27, 12:45=A0pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand due
> to the number of players in the pot.
>
> As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the weak
> starting hands goes up. =A0This is very true in a tight game. =A0Long ago=
that
> is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool. =A0It was not to show the
> great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
> had an ace.
> In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop chances
> are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full of
> paints. =A0Using modern software that gives odds based on the other playe=
rs
> hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of a
> hand in tight games. =A0I wish someone would/could put something togehter
> that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider the
> type of game.
>
> I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding aces
> pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of other
> players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000 in
> this very tight game that has very few large pots.
> Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see wha=
t
> it would really look like. =A0The very first hand set I entered really bl=
ew
> me away. =A0I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where hand=
s
> yoou could see people getting all in with. =A0I know I will get a ton of
> people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't care=
.
> =A0I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
> that is the nature of many on RGP.
> I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data min=
e
> for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
> It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being. =A0I was pretty sure =
it
> would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it turned ou=
t
> to be./
>
> Anyway here are the hands and results. =A0This should help many understan=
d
> how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 equity =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 win =A0 tie =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0pots won =A0 =A0pots tied =A0
> Hand 0: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 06.560% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 00.98% =A005.58% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A01968 =A0 =A0 =A011242.80 =A0 {AcAd }
> Hand 1: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 07.787% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 02.20% =A005.58% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A04438 =A0 =A0 =A011242.80 =A0 { AhAs }
> Hand 2: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 10.026% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 09.99% =A000.04% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 20110 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 80.30 =A0 =A0{ KcKd }
> Hand 3: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 08.975% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 08.94% =A000.04% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 17993 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 80.30 =A0 =A0{ QcQd }
> Hand 4: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 04.763% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 02.43% =A002.34% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A04884 =A0 =A0 =A0 4707.80 =A0 { JcTc }
> Hand 5: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 15.779% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 15.76% =A000.02% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 31736 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 39.80 =A0 { 9c9d }
> Hand 6: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 13.817% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 13.80% =A000.02% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 27784 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 39.80 =A0 { 8c8d }
> Hand 7: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 02.539% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 00.20% =A002.34% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 406 =A0 =A0 =A0 4707.80 =A0 { JsTs }
> Hand 8: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 05.257% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 05.20% =A000.06% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 10465 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0120.80 =A0 { KsQs }
> Hand 9: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 24.496% =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 24.48% =A000.02% =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 49290 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 39.80 =A0 { 6h4h }
>
> ---=A0
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com

the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.


  
Date: 27 Jan 2009 16:04:01
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 11:19 AM, Ben wrote:

> On Jan 27, 12:45 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand due
> > to the number of players in the pot.
> >
> > As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the weak
> > starting hands goes up.  This is very true in a tight game.  Long ago that
> > is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool.  It was not to show the
> > great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
> > had an ace.
> > In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop chances
> > are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full of
> > paints.  Using modern software that gives odds based on the other players
> > hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of a
> > hand in tight games.  I wish someone would/could put something togehter
> > that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider the
> > type of game.
> >
> > I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding aces
> > pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of other
> > players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000 in
> > this very tight game that has very few large pots.
> > Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see what
> > it would really look like.  The very first hand set I entered really blew
> > me away.  I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where hands
> > yoou could see people getting all in with.  I know I will get a ton of
> > people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't care..
> >  I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
> > that is the nature of many on RGP.
> > I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data mine
> > for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
> > It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being.  I was pretty sure it
> > would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it turned out
> > to be./
> >
> > Anyway here are the hands and results.  This should help many understand
> > how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
> >
> >           equity           win   tie            pots won    pots tied  
> > Hand 0:         06.560%         00.98%  05.58%            1968    
 11242.80   {AcAd }
> > Hand 1:         07.787%         02.20%  05.58%            4438    
 11242.80   { AhAs }
> > Hand 2:         10.026%         09.99%  00.04%           20110        
80.30    { KcKd }
> > Hand 3:         08.975%         08.94%  00.04%           17993        
80.30    { QcQd }
> > Hand 4:         04.763%         02.43%  02.34%            4884      
4707.80   { JcTc }
> > Hand 5:         15.779%         15.76%  00.02%           31736        
39.80   { 9c9d }
> > Hand 6:         13.817%         13.80%  00.02%           27784        
39.80   { 8c8d }
> > Hand 7:         02.539%         00.20%  02.34%             406      
4707.80   { JsTs }
> > Hand 8:         05.257%         05.20%  00.06%           10465      
 120.80   { KsQs }
> > Hand 9:         24.496%         24.48%  00.02%           49290        
39.80   { 6h4h }
> >
> the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
> that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
> the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.

Feel free to pick your own hands and run the numbers you will still see
the loss of value for the bigger hands.

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Date: 28 Jan 2009 07:23:31
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 7:04 PM, Arlo-Payne wrote:

> On Jan 27 2009 11:19 AM, Ben wrote:
>
> > On Jan 27, 12:45 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand due
> > > to the number of players in the pot.
> > >
> > > As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the weak
> > > starting hands goes up.  This is very true in a tight game.  Long ago
that
> > > is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool.  It was not to show the
> > > great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
> > > had an ace.
> > > In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop chances
> > > are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full of
> > > paints.  Using modern software that gives odds based on the other players
> > > hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of a
> > > hand in tight games.  I wish someone would/could put something togehter
> > > that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider the
> > > type of game.
> > >
> > > I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding aces
> > > pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of other
> > > players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000 in
> > > this very tight game that has very few large pots.
> > > Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see
what
> > > it would really look like.  The very first hand set I entered really blew
> > > me away.  I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where hands
> > > yoou could see people getting all in with.  I know I will get a ton of
> > > people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't
care..
> > >  I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
> > > that is the nature of many on RGP.
> > > I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data
mine
> > > for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
> > > It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being.  I was pretty sure it
> > > would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it turned
out
> > > to be./
> > >
> > > Anyway here are the hands and results.  This should help many understand
> > > how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
> > >
> > >           equity           win   tie            pots won    pots tied  
> > > Hand 0:         06.560%         00.98%  05.58%            1968    
>  11242.80   {AcAd }
> > > Hand 1:         07.787%         02.20%  05.58%            4438    
>  11242.80   { AhAs }
> > > Hand 2:         10.026%         09.99%  00.04%           20110        
> 80.30    { KcKd }
> > > Hand 3:         08.975%         08.94%  00.04%           17993        
> 80.30    { QcQd }
> > > Hand 4:         04.763%         02.43%  02.34%            4884      
> 4707.80   { JcTc }
> > > Hand 5:         15.779%         15.76%  00.02%           31736        
> 39.80   { 9c9d }
> > > Hand 6:         13.817%         13.80%  00.02%           27784        
> 39.80   { 8c8d }
> > > Hand 7:         02.539%         00.20%  02.34%             406      
> 4707.80   { JsTs }
> > > Hand 8:         05.257%         05.20%  00.06%           10465      
>  120.80   { KsQs }
> > > Hand 9:         24.496%         24.48%  00.02%           49290        
> 39.80   { 6h4h }
> > >
> > the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
> > that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
> > the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.
>
> Feel free to pick your own hands and run the numbers you will still see
> the loss of value for the bigger hands.

The suited cards gain value. This is news breaking? Obviously the higher
your suited cards the better.

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 10:37:01
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 12:19 PM, Ben wrote:

> On Jan 27, 12:45 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand due
> > to the number of players in the pot.
> >
> > As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the weak
> > starting hands goes up.  This is very true in a tight game.  Long ago that
> > is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool.  It was not to show the
> > great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
> > had an ace.
> > In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop chances
> > are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full of
> > paints.  Using modern software that gives odds based on the other players
> > hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of a
> > hand in tight games.  I wish someone would/could put something togehter
> > that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider the
> > type of game.
> >
> > I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding aces
> > pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of other
> > players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000 in
> > this very tight game that has very few large pots.
> > Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see what
> > it would really look like.  The very first hand set I entered really blew
> > me away.  I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where hands
> > yoou could see people getting all in with.  I know I will get a ton of
> > people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't care..
> >  I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
> > that is the nature of many on RGP.
> > I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data mine
> > for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
> > It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being.  I was pretty sure it
> > would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it turned out
> > to be./
> >
> > Anyway here are the hands and results.  This should help many understand
> > how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
> >
> >           equity           win   tie            pots won    pots tied  
> > Hand 0:         06.560%         00.98%  05.58%            1968    
 11242.80   {AcAd }
> > Hand 1:         07.787%         02.20%  05.58%            4438    
 11242.80   { AhAs }
> > Hand 2:         10.026%         09.99%  00.04%           20110        
80.30    { KcKd }
> > Hand 3:         08.975%         08.94%  00.04%           17993        
80.30    { QcQd }
> > Hand 4:         04.763%         02.43%  02.34%            4884      
4707.80   { JcTc }
> > Hand 5:         15.779%         15.76%  00.02%           31736        
39.80   { 9c9d }
> > Hand 6:         13.817%         13.80%  00.02%           27784        
39.80   { 8c8d }
> > Hand 7:         02.539%         00.20%  02.34%             406      
4707.80   { JsTs }
> > Hand 8:         05.257%         05.20%  00.06%           10465      
 120.80   { KsQs }
> > Hand 9:         24.496%         24.48%  00.02%           49290        
39.80   { 6h4h }
> >
> the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
> that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
> the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.


Of course it's a bullshit example. You can make any hand you want a
favorite by putting at the cards that don't improve it in other hands.
Given enough other hands, you can force the board to be whatever you want.
But actual poker doesn't work that way. Arlo's post shows a fundamental
lack of understanding about the game.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 16:05:00
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 11:37 AM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> On Jan 27 2009 12:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>
> > On Jan 27, 12:45 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand due
> > > to the number of players in the pot.
> > >
> > > As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the weak
> > > starting hands goes up.  This is very true in a tight game.  Long ago
that
> > > is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool.  It was not to show the
> > > great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands that
> > > had an ace.
> > > In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop chances
> > > are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full of
> > > paints.  Using modern software that gives odds based on the other players
> > > hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of a
> > > hand in tight games.  I wish someone would/could put something togehter
> > > that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider the
> > > type of game.
> > >
> > > I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding aces
> > > pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of other
> > > players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000 in
> > > this very tight game that has very few large pots.
> > > Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see
what
> > > it would really look like.  The very first hand set I entered really blew
> > > me away.  I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where hands
> > > yoou could see people getting all in with.  I know I will get a ton of
> > > people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't
care..
> > >  I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
> > > that is the nature of many on RGP.
> > > I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data
mine
> > > for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
> > > It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being.  I was pretty sure it
> > > would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it turned
out
> > > to be./
> > >
> > > Anyway here are the hands and results.  This should help many understand
> > > how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
> > >
> > >           equity           win   tie            pots won    pots tied  
> > > Hand 0:         06.560%         00.98%  05.58%            1968    
>  11242.80   {AcAd }
> > > Hand 1:         07.787%         02.20%  05.58%            4438    
>  11242.80   { AhAs }
> > > Hand 2:         10.026%         09.99%  00.04%           20110        
> 80.30    { KcKd }
> > > Hand 3:         08.975%         08.94%  00.04%           17993        
> 80.30    { QcQd }
> > > Hand 4:         04.763%         02.43%  02.34%            4884      
> 4707.80   { JcTc }
> > > Hand 5:         15.779%         15.76%  00.02%           31736        
> 39.80   { 9c9d }
> > > Hand 6:         13.817%         13.80%  00.02%           27784        
> 39.80   { 8c8d }
> > > Hand 7:         02.539%         00.20%  02.34%             406      
> 4707.80   { JsTs }
> > > Hand 8:         05.257%         05.20%  00.06%           10465      
>  120.80   { KsQs }
> > > Hand 9:         24.496%         24.48%  00.02%           49290        
> 39.80   { 6h4h }
> > >
> > the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
> > that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
> > the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.
>
>
> Of course it's a bullshit example. You can make any hand you want a
> favorite by putting at the cards that don't improve it in other hands.
> Given enough other hands, you can force the board to be whatever you want.
> But actual poker doesn't work that way. Arlo's post shows a fundamental
> lack of understanding about the game.
>
> Wayne Vinson
> http://cardsharp.org/
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

LOL
You little fool.

Run your own numbers and you will se a loss of value for the bigger hands.

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Date: 28 Jan 2009 02:14:59
From: Beldin the Sorcerer
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content

"Arlo-Payne" <arlo_payne@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:c2k456xh7g.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Jan 27 2009 11:37 AM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
>> On Jan 27 2009 12:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>
>> > On Jan 27, 12:45 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > > One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand
>> > > due
>> > > to the number of players in the pot.
>> > >
>> > > As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the
>> > > weak
>> > > starting hands goes up. This is very true in a tight game. Long ago
> that
>> > > is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool. It was not to show the
>> > > great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands
>> > > that
>> > > had an ace.
>> > > In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop
>> > > chances
>> > > are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full
>> > > of
>> > > paints. Using modern software that gives odds based on the other
>> > > players
>> > > hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of
>> > > a
>> > > hand in tight games. I wish someone would/could put something
>> > > togehter
>> > > that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider
>> > > the
>> > > type of game.
>> > >
>> > > I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding
>> > > aces
>> > > pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of
>> > > other
>> > > players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000
>> > > in
>> > > this very tight game that has very few large pots.
>> > > Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see
> what
>> > > it would really look like. The very first hand set I entered really
>> > > blew
>> > > me away. I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where
>> > > hands
>> > > yoou could see people getting all in with. I know I will get a ton of
>> > > people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't
> care..
>> > > I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
>> > > that is the nature of many on RGP.
>> > > I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data
> mine
>> > > for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
>> > > It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being. I was pretty sure
>> > > it
>> > > would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it
>> > > turned
> out
>> > > to be./
>> > >
>> > > Anyway here are the hands and results. This should help many
>> > > understand
>> > > how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
>> > >
>> > > equity win tie pots won pots tied
>> > > Hand 0: 06.560% 00.98% 05.58% 1968
>> 11242.80 {AcAd }
>> > > Hand 1: 07.787% 02.20% 05.58% 4438
>> 11242.80 { AhAs }
>> > > Hand 2: 10.026% 09.99% 00.04% 20110
>> 80.30 { KcKd }
>> > > Hand 3: 08.975% 08.94% 00.04% 17993
>> 80.30 { QcQd }
>> > > Hand 4: 04.763% 02.43% 02.34% 4884
>> 4707.80 { JcTc }
>> > > Hand 5: 15.779% 15.76% 00.02% 31736
>> 39.80 { 9c9d }
>> > > Hand 6: 13.817% 13.80% 00.02% 27784
>> 39.80 { 8c8d }
>> > > Hand 7: 02.539% 00.20% 02.34% 406
>> 4707.80 { JsTs }
>> > > Hand 8: 05.257% 05.20% 00.06% 10465
>> 120.80 { KsQs }
>> > > Hand 9: 24.496% 24.48% 00.02% 49290
>> 39.80 { 6h4h }
>> > >
>> > the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
>> > that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
>> > the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.
>>
>>
>> Of course it's a bullshit example. You can make any hand you want a
>> favorite by putting at the cards that don't improve it in other hands.
>> Given enough other hands, you can force the board to be whatever you
>> want.
>> But actual poker doesn't work that way. Arlo's post shows a fundamental
>> lack of understanding about the game.
>>
>> Wayne Vinson
>> http://cardsharp.org/
>> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
>
> LOL
> You little fool.
>
> Run your own numbers and you will se a loss of value for the bigger hands.
>
Arlo,
Any time more hands enter a pot, the best hand going in loses some value.
However it is rewarded with a bigger pot.

Here's a reasonable distribution of good hands and late callable hands where
64 is in bad shape :

Ad Ah 100644 26.70 275425 73.06 923 0.24 0.268
As Ks 35155 9.33 339650 90.09 2187 0.58 0.096
Qc Qd 34321 9.10 340468 90.31 2203 0.58 0.094
Kh Qh 19893 5.28 353632 93.80 3467 0.92 0.057
Td 9d 51865 13.76 324773 86.15 354 0.09 0.138
8s 8d 54510 14.46 322128 85.45 354 0.09 0.145
5c 5h 43428 11.52 333210 88.39 354 0.09 0.115
6h 4h 33140 8.79 343498 91.12 354 0.09 0.088

Note that it's not in the WORST shape. But it's way behind.




    
Date: 28 Jan 2009 11:01:47
From: Lab Rat
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content

"Arlo-Payne" <arlo_payne@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:c2k456xh7g.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Jan 27 2009 11:37 AM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
>> On Jan 27 2009 12:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>
>> > On Jan 27, 12:45 pm, "Arlo-Payne" <arlo_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > > One thing many newer players forget is the change in worth in a hand
>> > > due
>> > > to the number of players in the pot.
>> > >
>> > > As you add players the value of big hands pre-flop goes down and the
>> > > weak
>> > > starting hands goes up. This is very true in a tight game. Long ago
> that
>> > > is how I started using 6-4 as a teaching tool. It was not to show the
>> > > great value of 6-4 but how many over value paints and starting hands
>> > > that
>> > > had an ace.
>> > > In most tight games if more than 5 players are in the pot preflop
>> > > chances
>> > > are very good all the aces are out and most players have hands full
>> > > of
>> > > paints. Using modern software that gives odds based on the other
>> > > players
>> > > hands being random is really not much good when deciding the worth of
>> > > a
>> > > hand in tight games. I wish someone would/could put something
>> > > togehter
>> > > that could consider some type of weighted effect that would consider
>> > > the
>> > > type of game.
>> > >
>> > > I was thinking about all the shit I took for talkingt about folding
>> > > aces
>> > > pre-flop in a very tight game where you are all in against a ton of
>> > > other
>> > > players if you called and you have grinded your way up to say $1000
>> > > in
>> > > this very tight game that has very few large pots.
>> > > Anyway I was using pokerstove (very good program) just to try and see
> what
>> > > it would really look like. The very first hand set I entered really
>> > > blew
>> > > me away. I of course made one of the hands 6-4 and the rest where
>> > > hands
>> > > yoou could see people getting all in with. I know I will get a ton of
>> > > people saying this or that about the hands I used but I really don't
> care..
>> > > I also know many will trow turds for any and all reasons just because
>> > > that is the nature of many on RGP.
>> > > I really am using the first set of hands I entered and I did not data
> mine
>> > > for results beyond picking the hands for the first run of pokerstove.
>> > > It blew my mind just how strong 6-4 ended up being. I was pretty sure
>> > > it
>> > > would run over aces but never expected it to be as strong as it
>> > > turned
> out
>> > > to be./
>> > >
>> > > Anyway here are the hands and results. This should help many
>> > > understand
>> > > how many hands are way over valued pre-flop.
>> > >
>> > > equity win tie pots won pots tied
>> > > Hand 0: 06.560% 00.98% 05.58% 1968
>> 11242.80 {AcAd }
>> > > Hand 1: 07.787% 02.20% 05.58% 4438
>> 11242.80 { AhAs }
>> > > Hand 2: 10.026% 09.99% 00.04% 20110
>> 80.30 { KcKd }
>> > > Hand 3: 08.975% 08.94% 00.04% 17993
>> 80.30 { QcQd }
>> > > Hand 4: 04.763% 02.43% 02.34% 4884
>> 4707.80 { JcTc }
>> > > Hand 5: 15.779% 15.76% 00.02% 31736
>> 39.80 { 9c9d }
>> > > Hand 6: 13.817% 13.80% 00.02% 27784
>> 39.80 { 8c8d }
>> > > Hand 7: 02.539% 00.20% 02.34% 406
>> 4707.80 { JsTs }
>> > > Hand 8: 05.257% 05.20% 00.06% 10465
>> 120.80 { KsQs }
>> > > Hand 9: 24.496% 24.48% 00.02% 49290
>> 39.80 { 6h4h }
>> > >
>> > the point you're trying to make is understood, but you have to note
>> > that 30% of the cards left in the deck are hearts and the majority of
>> > the cards left are straight connectors for the 64. quite skewed.
>>
>>
>> Of course it's a bullshit example. You can make any hand you want a
>> favorite by putting at the cards that don't improve it in other hands.
>> Given enough other hands, you can force the board to be whatever you
>> want.
>> But actual poker doesn't work that way. Arlo's post shows a fundamental
>> lack of understanding about the game.
>>
>> Wayne Vinson
>> http://cardsharp.org/
>> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
>
> LOL
> You little fool.
>
> Run your own numbers and you will se a loss of value for the bigger hands.

Quite apart from the obviously doctored distribution, any numbers that you
run have to have some possibility of getting it all in in the real world.
Take your example, Arlo, and give me one plausible example of how all of
those hands, in that order (put the button wherever you want) all end up
allin.

Take out the hands that actually need odds to call (jts, 64s) and how do the
aces look?




 
Date: 27 Jan 2009 09:57:30
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
Oh boy, a folding aces preflop thread. Figure I should get in on the
ground floor.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 13:00:12
From: James L. Hankins
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content

"Wayne Vinson" <a7a88fc@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:ahu356x6fc.ln2@recgroups.com...

> Oh boy, a folding aces preflop thread. Figure I should get in on the
> ground floor.


It's not a folding aces pre-flop thread; it's a lesson in thinking about
game conditions and what that means to the value of your hand when multiple
players in a tight game show strength.




   
Date: 27 Jan 2009 11:50:57
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
> It's not a folding aces pre-flop thread; it's a lesson in thinking about
> game conditions and what that means to the value of your hand when multiple
> players in a tight game show strength.

It's not a lesson in anything. If you remove the absurd assumptions:

- who moves in with JTs or a pair of 9's?? In a supposedly "tight"
game????
- how could the guy on the 64 possibly know hearts were unusually live?
- why are you sure the aces are duplicated, if villains are willing to
move in on kings and queens?

Once you remove these absurd assumptions, then the numbers again solidly
favor the aces as you would expect (even if you leave the aces duplicated
say 50% of the time and duplicate the KK the other half).

Point being, Arlo is posting nonsense.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 16:01:48
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 12:50 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> > It's not a folding aces pre-flop thread; it's a lesson in thinking about
> > game conditions and what that means to the value of your hand when
multiple
> > players in a tight game show strength.
>
> It's not a lesson in anything. If you remove the absurd assumptions:
>
> - who moves in with JTs or a pair of 9's?? In a supposedly "tight"
> game????
> - how could the guy on the 64 possibly know hearts were unusually live?
> - why are you sure the aces are duplicated, if villains are willing to
> move in on kings and queens?
>
> Once you remove these absurd assumptions, then the numbers again solidly
> favor the aces as you would expect (even if you leave the aces duplicated
> say 50% of the time and duplicate the KK the other half).
>
> Point being, Arlo is posting nonsense.
>
> Wayne Vinson
> http://cardsharp.org/
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
No Arlo si not posting nonsense.
You just refuse to open your eyes to what was being talked about which
isbig hand values going down as players go up

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 19:50:36
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
> No Arlo si not posting nonsense.
> You just refuse to open your eyes to what was being talked about which
> isbig hand values going down as players go up

Oh, I understand very clearly the mistake you're making. You can twist
and turn all you like, and the aces are still the favorite.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:55:19
From: MMelia
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 2:50 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> > It's not a folding aces pre-flop thread; it's a lesson in thinking about
> > game conditions and what that means to the value of your hand when
multiple
> > players in a tight game show strength.
>
> It's not a lesson in anything. If you remove the absurd assumptions:
>
> - who moves in with JTs or a pair of 9's?? In a supposedly "tight"
> game????
> - how could the guy on the 64 possibly know hearts were unusually live?
> - why are you sure the aces are duplicated, if villains are willing to
> move in on kings and queens?
>
> Once you remove these absurd assumptions, then the numbers again solidly
> favor the aces as you would expect (even if you leave the aces duplicated
> say 50% of the time and duplicate the KK the other half).
>
> Point being, Arlo is posting nonsense.
>
> Wayne Vinson
> http://cardsharp.org/
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

Aww, you beat me to it. Glad I read this first.

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:00:39
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
> Point being, Arlo is posting nonsense.

I have to admit Arlo you didnt really paint a good picture proving your
point.

I can see something like AA, AA, KK, KK ( or a combination of AK etc)
maybe getting it all in preflop, but doing it the way you did was just a
way to make the hand look stronger than it would typically be by including
not one heart in the equation.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 16:02:44
From: Arlo-Payne
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 1:00 PM, John_Brian_K wrote:

> > Point being, Arlo is posting nonsense.
>
> I have to admit Arlo you didnt really paint a good picture proving your
> point.
>
> I can see something like AA, AA, KK, KK ( or a combination of AK etc)
> maybe getting it all in preflop, but doing it the way you did was just a
> way to make the hand look stronger than it would typically be by including
> not one heart in the equation.
>
> ========================================
> You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
> nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
> ========
> BOOM byae
> John


Pick your own hands and run the numbers. That might get you to understand
the point.

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 11:15:22
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Change of hand values warning poker content
On Jan 27 2009 1:00 PM, James L. Hankins wrote:

> It's not a folding aces pre-flop thread; it's a lesson in thinking about
> game conditions and what that means to the value of your hand when multiple
> players in a tight game show strength.

Means it's time to switch tables?

---
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xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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