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Date: 31 Dec 2008 07:33:59
From: Lute
Subject: Cash Game Question
Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
games. Although I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in 2008,
the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
add up). I thought that maybe cash games would provide more frequent,
if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
profits.

But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
day), I am losing over all.

When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
think I am.

Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. Player to my left re-raises to 6
BB. All others fold, I call. Flop K-J-2. turn and river x-x.

Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
with top set (KK preflop).

Next day, almost identical situation. But this time, when opponent re-
raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. I fold 2nd set. He shows top 2
pair.

So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. Then I notice
this: when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
profit. But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).

And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.

Am I being out played? Granted, the examples I gave are very limited,
but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.

As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
(pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.

But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
be break-even. At least in trnys, I do better than that.

(I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
session. Online the players are much tighter. But is that the issue
here?)

Thanks for any help you might offer.




 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 16:28:14
From: RussGeorgiev@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
I keep telling you people CASH GAME PLAYERS are so much better than
tourney players it's like a 1 vs 10





On Dec 31, 7:33=EF=BF=BDam, Lute <lutelat...@msn.com > wrote:
> Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
> games. =EF=BF=BDAlthough I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in =
2008,
> the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
> add up). =EF=BF=BDI thought that maybe cash games would provide more freq=
uent,
> if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
> profits.
>
> But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> day), I am losing over all.
>
> When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
> think I am.
>
> Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. =EF=BF=BDPlayer to my left re-raises=
to 6
> BB. =EF=BF=BDAll others fold, I call. =EF=BF=BDFlop K-J-2. =EF=BF=BDturn =
and river x-x.
>
> Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> with top set (KK preflop).
>
> Next day, almost identical situation. =EF=BF=BDBut this time, when oppone=
nt re-
> raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. =EF=BF=BDI fold 2nd set. =EF=BF=BDH=
e shows top 2
> pair.
>
> So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. =EF=BF=BDThen I notice
> this: =EF=BF=BDwhen I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> profit. =EF=BF=BDBut when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).
>
> And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.
>
> Am I being out played? =EF=BF=BDGranted, the examples I gave are very lim=
ited,
> but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.
>
> As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.
>
> But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> be break-even. =EF=BF=BDAt least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> session. =EF=BF=BDOnline the players are much tighter. =EF=BF=BDBut is th=
at the issue
> here?)
>
> Thanks for any help you might offer.



 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 15:35:27
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Jan 1, 7:39=A0am, johnny_t <nobod...@home.com > wrote:
> Play shorter stacks until you feel calibrated. =A0 I have found about 40B=
B
> keeps me out of trouble, and allows most types of bets. =A0Once you feel
> like you are comfortable with the table you can increase your stack.

I like to play pot-limit, with a big stack. This doesn't
stop me making any move I would otherwise make, and it
takes a couple of weapons out of the opponents' arsenals.

Having someone bet 3x the pot on the river when you
have the second nuts , gives you one of the most difficult
decisions to make, and it is good to block the LAGtards
from being able to do that :)



  
Date: 02 Jan 2009 07:38:19
From: johnny_t
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
Old Wolf wrote:
> On Jan 1, 7:39 am, johnny_t <nobod...@home.com> wrote:
>> Play shorter stacks until you feel calibrated. I have found about 40BB
>> keeps me out of trouble, and allows most types of bets. Once you feel
>> like you are comfortable with the table you can increase your stack.
>
> I like to play pot-limit, with a big stack. This doesn't
> stop me making any move I would otherwise make, and it
> takes a couple of weapons out of the opponents' arsenals.
>
> Having someone bet 3x the pot on the river when you
> have the second nuts , gives you one of the most difficult
> decisions to make, and it is good to block the LAGtards
> from being able to do that :)
>


Stack size is controversial on this list. The reason for the shorter
stack is that personally, while still developing a notes and style list,
that there is a greater risk to my stack, than after I have gotten a
sense of the style and play of the table. And that this risk, is
greater than the loss of opportunity risk from playing smaller.

Pot Limit is another way of reducing that risk as well. But I find a
lot less LAG play online than you would suppose. I see that more live.


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 15:29:16
From: Old Wolf
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Jan 1, 4:33=A0am, Lute <lutelat...@msn.com > wrote:
> Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
>
> But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> day), I am losing over all.

I recommend buying "Harrington on Cash Games" (both volumes).
It really transformed my understanding of the game.

> Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> with top set (KK preflop).

There aren't many absolutes in poker, but this is one of
them, you shouldn't be folding middle set if top set is
the only thing that beats you, in an online NLHE game.

Instead, assume that the other guy has a worse hand that
will pay you off (e.g. bottom set, or top 2 pair), and play
accordingly to get the most money out of him. Note that
if you had done so, then you would have recovered your
loss in this hand, with the hand where 2 pair thought he was best.

A final word, table selection is very important. My experience
of PStars low stakes NL cash games is that sometimes you
get a table where you just can't win, and sometimes you get
a table where people throw their money at you.

I'd suggest regularly changing tables until you find one that has
bad players; play weakly for the first couple of orbits until you
have assessed the table. (For example, don't play TPTK type
hands out of position, and don't immediately sit down throwing
out bluff raises; until you've identified the people that will call
off their whole stack when they can't beat TPTK, and the people
who will fold to a bluff raise).



 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:00:09
From: I eat donks
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31 2008 3:33 PM, Lute wrote:


>
> Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. Player to my left re-raises to 6
> BB. All others fold, I call. Flop K-J-2. turn and river x-x.

Stacks? stakes? How has he been playing? Does he like to put you on the
back foot with a small reraise when in position?

> Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> with top set (KK preflop).

Get over it. You should nearly always be prepared to go broke with the
2nd set, or even the bottom set in the vast majority of online games.

> Next day, almost identical situation. But this time, when opponent re-
> raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. I fold 2nd set. He shows top 2
> pair.

Give up poker if you are getting into a habit of folding 2nd set.

> So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. Then I notice
> this: when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> profit. But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).

Some observations: 1/ You really ought to play with a bigger stack, at
least 100BBs. More if the buyin allows. You can then play many more
hands profitably when in position

2/ When you win small pots (especially OOP) with your set, its likely that
the player behind did not have much, and folding to your check-raise. Try
to lead out more often when you hit. That way, if they read you for a
continuation bet, you are far more likely to win a bigger pot when they
have nothing.

3/ Forget about the times when you smaller set ran into a bigger set and
you get stack. Shit happens, but not often enough for you to get
weak/tight with your set on a non-threatening board.

4/ Your 2nd set will far more often win you big pots against overpairs, TP
good kicker, 2 pairs, etc.

> And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.

It either sounds that you've been unlikely, or over-playing your marginal
hands, or playing too loose aggressive with your draws against loose
callers.

> Am I being out played?

Not enough information

Granted, the examples I gave are very limited,
> but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.

'Your best hands', or 'the best hand'? In some situations, it unavoidable
that you will stacked. In others, it might be luck, or it might be your
bad play. You haven't given us sufficient information to comment.
>
> As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.


> But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> be break-even. At least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> session. Online the players are much tighter. But is that the issue
> here?)
>
> Thanks for any help you might offer.


'So donkeys, come rally,
And the last hand let us raise!
The miracle suck-outs will tally,
And save the donkey race!'

------- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 10:39:51
From: johnny_t
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
Lute wrote:
> Thanks for any help you might offer.

Online cash can become very difficult to calibrate for. It is hard to
know where the line is and where you should be stacking off for value.
After all you can't always have the nuts.

It greatly depends on the players. Which means that you have to keep
copious notes on them. You have to know how they are playing. How
they play weak strong and medium hands. It takes a while to build up a
set of notes that is useful, but it is very important.

Identify set miners, nut players and short stackers. You simply do not
have to give them any action, they aren't giving you any.

Position becomes vitally important.

You need to figure out if you can make your money through bluffing or
value. The kind of results you are seeing probably should lead to more
bluffing.

But become aware of those that like to pick of bluffers. They hate
bluffers more than anything. There are a lot of them out there, and you
get more value from them.

Pay attention to your own percentages. If you have been card dead.
Bluff a BIT. If you have been having the stack hit the hell out of
you, value bet big.

Button Raise a lot. Fold it at the start, and then start raising it. I
never try and steal BB's live as it is nearly never worth the time and
effort. In most online games, an unfortunate amount of winning comes
from stealing the blinds.

Play shorter stacks until you feel calibrated. I have found about 40BB
keeps me out of trouble, and allows most types of bets. Once you feel
like you are comfortable with the table you can increase your stack.

Be wary though, online can change very quickly as people move in and out
of the table. This is why notes become so very important.

While you are developing notes, be very very wary.

Most games will be very very tight. This doesn't mean that you should
always bluff. But there will become an optimum bluff frequency that you
need to pull off. You will tend to find that your profitable or
unprofitable sessions will become defined by your bluffs and not by your
value hands. Finding this level is part of the art of calibration.

One trick ponies are beat. You need to come with as many tools as you can.

One really good thing. It does improve your live play. Being a one
trick pony can pay off really well live. Having lots of tools can make
you constantly profitable live.


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 10:29:20
From:
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31, 12:15=A0pm, "FangBanger" <a29b...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> > Set-over-set is tough, but generally in a cash game you're going to
> > put it all in with a set unless one of three situtations is present:
>
> > 1. =A0You're bottom set and you have two other opponents going crazy on
> > the flop. =A0Especially if it is an otherwise dry flop (you have 22 on =
a
> > flop of K, 9, 2 rainbow).
>
> OH YEAH .. this happens 3 times an hour !! =A0What are you NUTZ?
>
> > 2. =A0You have middle set and it's a multiway pot and very coordinated.
> > For example, you have JJ on a flop of 10-J-Q suited or two to a suit,
> > with 3 or 4 players in. =A0Someone may have AK or QQ already, or any
> > 9,K,A or spade (18 cards) probably overtakes you. =A0(So this is a
> > situation where you really want to wait for the turn before
> > committing.)
>
> THIS ONE IS JUST PLAIN STUPID . 98% of you TVSMS absolutely "KNOW" that
> you are beat and call anyways
>
>
>
> > 3. =A0You are very deep stacked and have a read on your opponent. =A0Th=
is
> > point is tough for people to grasp. In NL games it is much easier to
> > get a big stack committed to a hand than most people realize. =A0100BB
> > is nothing if there are 2 callers PF. =A0Look at it this way: You raise
> > PF to 3 BB, two callers. =A0That's probably 10 bets in the pot. =A0You =
bet
> > the pot on the flop, that's 10, if they both call, that's 40 bets in
> > the pot and you have 87 left. =A0If you bet even 30 on the turn, you
> > have almost half your stack in there and are getting 2-1 to call if
> > even one person pushes, so it's probably going in unless its an
> > absolute horrible card (e.g., the Ace of spades in the above example).
> > You're stuck. (So if you really have the skill, you're much better off
> > playing 200BB or deeper.)
>
> You are right !! =A0It is tough to grasp.. AND YOU DONT GET IT !!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Even in some of these situations, you may be a matematical favorite,
> > so you should want to have them call. =A0But if a part of you thinks yo=
u
> > can wait for a better spot (because you think you have a skill
> > advantage, and franky don't want the big swings), then lay it down.
> > You're only giving up a little value, and will be saving yourself a
> > lot of anguish.
>
> > That having been said, you have to realize that set over set is
> > relatively rare. =A0It sounds like you're having a bad run to start off
> > your cash game expeience, but it really doesn't happen that much.
> > Give it a while and see how it goes.
>
> > The biggest thing to realize in real cash games (not 1 cent/2 cent) is
> > that TPTK is crap in big pots. =A0AA is crap in big pots. AK is semi-
> > crap pre-flop. =A0Before you put that stack in, have a real hand (middl=
e
> > set or better, depending on the above) a huge draw, (open ended, TP,
> > flush draw with an over, etc.), or a hell of a read on your
> > opponent.
>
> > These aren't tournaments. =A0You aren't going to scare anyone out if
> > they have the odds to draw, ESPECIALLY on the flop. It's not a game of
> > survival. It's a game of making them make the wrong decisions based on
> > the odds and your read over and over again, and letting the math even
> > out. If you have top set against one opponent on the turn and there is
> > only a straight draw out there, in a tournament you MAY in some
> > situations want him to fold so you don't risk elimination. =A0In a cash
> > game, if he's 15% or 25% to hit and bets your stack, beat him in the
> > pot.
>
> > I'd suggest getting a book on cash games. =A0You'll really start to
> > understand these differences and many others.
>
> AND I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU BE THE FIRST ONE TO READ THAT BOOK !!
>
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities=
.
> Voltaire
>
> ____________________________________________________________________=A0
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com- Hide quoted te=
xt -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Wow. Settle down there Francis. You're going to give yourself an
anuerism.



.


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 09:06:53
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31 2008 9:33 AM, Lute wrote:

> Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
> games. Although I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in 2008,
> the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
> add up). I thought that maybe cash games would provide more frequent,
> if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
> profits.
>
> But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> day), I am losing over all.
>
> When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
> think I am.
>
> Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. Player to my left re-raises to 6
> BB. All others fold, I call. Flop K-J-2. turn and river x-x.
>
> Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> with top set (KK preflop).
>
> Next day, almost identical situation. But this time, when opponent re-
> raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. I fold 2nd set. He shows top 2
> pair.
>
> So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. Then I notice
> this: when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> profit. But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).
>
> And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.
>
> Am I being out played? Granted, the examples I gave are very limited,
> but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.
>
> As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.
>
> But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> be break-even. At least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> session. Online the players are much tighter. But is that the issue
> here?)
>
> Thanks for any help you might offer.

ANY IDIOT CAN WIN A TOURNY HERE OR THERE. it is a completely different
ball game playing cash games .

helmuth is the best tournament playing human on earth .

HE IS A STONE COLD SUCKER IN CASH GAMES .

if you have to worry about getting set under set , before you play .

JUST QUIT


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

------- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 08:53:30
From: Lute
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31, 11:07=A0am, johnnycoconuts...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Dec 31, 10:33=A0am, Lute <lutelat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
> > games. =A0Although I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in 2008=
,
> > the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
> > add up). =A0I thought that maybe cash games would provide more frequent=
,
> > if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
> > profits.
>
> > But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> > day), I am losing over all.
>
> > When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
> > think I am.
>
> > Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. =A0Player to my left re-raises to =
6
> > BB. =A0All others fold, I call. =A0Flop K-J-2. =A0turn and river x-x.
>
> > Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> > with top set (KK preflop).
>
> > Next day, almost identical situation. =A0But this time, when opponent r=
e-
> > raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. =A0I fold 2nd set. =A0He shows to=
p 2
> > pair.
>
> > So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. =A0Then I notice
> > this: =A0when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> > profit. =A0But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).
>
> > And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> > these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.
>
> > Am I being out played? =A0Granted, the examples I gave are very limited=
,
> > but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> > full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.
>
> > As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> > (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> > is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.
>
> > But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> > and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> > be break-even. =A0At least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> > (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> > session. =A0Online the players are much tighter. =A0But is that the iss=
ue
> > here?)
>
> > Thanks for any help you might offer.
>
> Set-over-set is tough, but generally in a cash game you're going to
> put it all in with a set unless one of three situtations is present:
>
> 1. =A0You're bottom set and you have two other opponents going crazy on
> the flop. =A0Especially if it is an otherwise dry flop (you have 22 on a
> flop of K, 9, 2 rainbow).
>
> 2. =A0You have middle set and it's a multiway pot and very coordinated.
> For example, you have JJ on a flop of 10-J-Q suited or two to a suit,
> with 3 or 4 players in. =A0Someone may have AK or QQ already, or any
> 9,K,A or spade (18 cards) probably overtakes you. =A0(So this is a
> situation where you really want to wait for the turn before
> committing.)
>
> 3. =A0You are very deep stacked and have a read on your opponent. =A0This
> point is tough for people to grasp. In NL games it is much easier to
> get a big stack committed to a hand than most people realize. =A0100BB
> is nothing if there are 2 callers PF. =A0Look at it this way: You raise
> PF to 3 BB, two callers. =A0That's probably 10 bets in the pot. =A0You be=
t
> the pot on the flop, that's 10, if they both call, that's 40 bets in
> the pot and you have 87 left. =A0If you bet even 30 on the turn, you
> have almost half your stack in there and are getting 2-1 to call if
> even one person pushes, so it's probably going in unless its an
> absolute horrible card (e.g., the Ace of spades in the above example).
> You're stuck. (So if you really have the skill, you're much better off
> playing 200BB or deeper.)
>
> Even in some of these situations, you may be a matematical favorite,
> so you should want to have them call. =A0But if a part of you thinks you
> can wait for a better spot (because you think you have a skill
> advantage, and franky don't want the big swings), then lay it down.
> You're only giving up a little value, and will be saving yourself a
> lot of anguish.
>
> That having been said, you have to realize that set over set is
> relatively rare. =A0It sounds like you're having a bad run to start off
> your cash game expeience, but it really doesn't happen that much.
> Give it a while and see how it goes.
>
> The biggest thing to realize in real cash games (not 1 cent/2 cent) is
> that TPTK is crap in big pots. =A0AA is crap in big pots. AK is semi-
> crap pre-flop. =A0Before you put that stack in, have a real hand (middle
> set or better, depending on the above) a huge draw, (open ended, TP,
> flush draw with an over, etc.), or a hell of a read on your
> opponent.
>
> These aren't tournaments. =A0You aren't going to scare anyone out if
> they have the odds to draw, ESPECIALLY on the flop. It's not a game of
> survival. It's a game of making them make the wrong decisions based on
> the odds and your read over and over again, and letting the math even
> out. If you have top set against one opponent on the turn and there is
> only a straight draw out there, in a tournament you MAY in some
> situations want him to fold so you don't risk elimination. =A0In a cash
> game, if he's 15% or 25% to hit and bets your stack, beat him in the
> pot.
>
> I'd suggest getting a book on cash games. =A0You'll really start to
> understand these differences and many others.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Very useful info. Thanks.


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 08:50:09
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
> So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. Then I notice
> this: when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> profit. But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).

Set over set doesn't happen often enough to worry about it. That being
said, I stay away from set mining the smaller pairs unless I'm playing 6
handed.

It sounds like you need to work on increasing the amount you win when you
flop a set, rather than worrying about laying down middle set.

I've also started playing more PLO online as the NLHE games seem to have
fewer fish, even at the lower limits. I'm also good after the flop, and
PLO seems to give me more of an advantage there.

Dean

"First of all, I cannot see Bookworm's post in my newsreader. Probably
just as well, he annoys the fuck out of me anyway." PP - Dec 29, 2008

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 08:07:57
From:
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31, 10:33=A0am, Lute <lutelat...@msn.com > wrote:
> Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
> games. =A0Although I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in 2008,
> the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
> add up). =A0I thought that maybe cash games would provide more frequent,
> if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
> profits.
>
> But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> day), I am losing over all.
>
> When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
> think I am.
>
> Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. =A0Player to my left re-raises to 6
> BB. =A0All others fold, I call. =A0Flop K-J-2. =A0turn and river x-x.
>
> Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> with top set (KK preflop).
>
> Next day, almost identical situation. =A0But this time, when opponent re-
> raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. =A0I fold 2nd set. =A0He shows top =
2
> pair.
>
> So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. =A0Then I notice
> this: =A0when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> profit. =A0But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).
>
> And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.
>
> Am I being out played? =A0Granted, the examples I gave are very limited,
> but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.
>
> As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.
>
> But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> be break-even. =A0At least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> session. =A0Online the players are much tighter. =A0But is that the issue
> here?)
>
> Thanks for any help you might offer.


Set-over-set is tough, but generally in a cash game you're going to
put it all in with a set unless one of three situtations is present:

1. You're bottom set and you have two other opponents going crazy on
the flop. Especially if it is an otherwise dry flop (you have 22 on a
flop of K, 9, 2 rainbow).

2. You have middle set and it's a multiway pot and very coordinated.
For example, you have JJ on a flop of 10-J-Q suited or two to a suit,
with 3 or 4 players in. Someone may have AK or QQ already, or any
9,K,A or spade (18 cards) probably overtakes you. (So this is a
situation where you really want to wait for the turn before
committing.)

3. You are very deep stacked and have a read on your opponent. This
point is tough for people to grasp. In NL games it is much easier to
get a big stack committed to a hand than most people realize. 100BB
is nothing if there are 2 callers PF. Look at it this way: You raise
PF to 3 BB, two callers. That's probably 10 bets in the pot. You bet
the pot on the flop, that's 10, if they both call, that's 40 bets in
the pot and you have 87 left. If you bet even 30 on the turn, you
have almost half your stack in there and are getting 2-1 to call if
even one person pushes, so it's probably going in unless its an
absolute horrible card (e.g., the Ace of spades in the above example).
You're stuck. (So if you really have the skill, you're much better off
playing 200BB or deeper.)

Even in some of these situations, you may be a matematical favorite,
so you should want to have them call. But if a part of you thinks you
can wait for a better spot (because you think you have a skill
advantage, and franky don't want the big swings), then lay it down.
You're only giving up a little value, and will be saving yourself a
lot of anguish.

That having been said, you have to realize that set over set is
relatively rare. It sounds like you're having a bad run to start off
your cash game expeience, but it really doesn't happen that much.
Give it a while and see how it goes.

The biggest thing to realize in real cash games (not 1 cent/2 cent) is
that TPTK is crap in big pots. AA is crap in big pots. AK is semi-
crap pre-flop. Before you put that stack in, have a real hand (middle
set or better, depending on the above) a huge draw, (open ended, TP,
flush draw with an over, etc.), or a hell of a read on your
opponent.

These aren't tournaments. You aren't going to scare anyone out if
they have the odds to draw, ESPECIALLY on the flop. It's not a game of
survival. It's a game of making them make the wrong decisions based on
the odds and your read over and over again, and letting the math even
out. If you have top set against one opponent on the turn and there is
only a straight draw out there, in a tournament you MAY in some
situations want him to fold so you don't risk elimination. In a cash
game, if he's 15% or 25% to hit and bets your stack, beat him in the
pot.

I'd suggest getting a book on cash games. You'll really start to
understand these differences and many others.



  
Date: 31 Dec 2008 09:15:16
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
>
>
> Set-over-set is tough, but generally in a cash game you're going to
> put it all in with a set unless one of three situtations is present:
>
> 1. You're bottom set and you have two other opponents going crazy on
> the flop. Especially if it is an otherwise dry flop (you have 22 on a
> flop of K, 9, 2 rainbow).
>
OH YEAH .. this happens 3 times an hour !! What are you NUTZ?


> 2. You have middle set and it's a multiway pot and very coordinated.
> For example, you have JJ on a flop of 10-J-Q suited or two to a suit,
> with 3 or 4 players in. Someone may have AK or QQ already, or any
> 9,K,A or spade (18 cards) probably overtakes you. (So this is a
> situation where you really want to wait for the turn before
> committing.)

THIS ONE IS JUST PLAIN STUPID . 98% of you TVSMS absolutely "KNOW" that
you are beat and call anyways
>
> 3. You are very deep stacked and have a read on your opponent. This
> point is tough for people to grasp. In NL games it is much easier to
> get a big stack committed to a hand than most people realize. 100BB
> is nothing if there are 2 callers PF. Look at it this way: You raise
> PF to 3 BB, two callers. That's probably 10 bets in the pot. You bet
> the pot on the flop, that's 10, if they both call, that's 40 bets in
> the pot and you have 87 left. If you bet even 30 on the turn, you
> have almost half your stack in there and are getting 2-1 to call if
> even one person pushes, so it's probably going in unless its an
> absolute horrible card (e.g., the Ace of spades in the above example).
> You're stuck. (So if you really have the skill, you're much better off
> playing 200BB or deeper.)

You are right !! It is tough to grasp.. AND YOU DONT GET IT !!
>
> Even in some of these situations, you may be a matematical favorite,
> so you should want to have them call. But if a part of you thinks you
> can wait for a better spot (because you think you have a skill
> advantage, and franky don't want the big swings), then lay it down.
> You're only giving up a little value, and will be saving yourself a
> lot of anguish.
>
> That having been said, you have to realize that set over set is
> relatively rare. It sounds like you're having a bad run to start off
> your cash game expeience, but it really doesn't happen that much.
> Give it a while and see how it goes.
>
> The biggest thing to realize in real cash games (not 1 cent/2 cent) is
> that TPTK is crap in big pots. AA is crap in big pots. AK is semi-
> crap pre-flop. Before you put that stack in, have a real hand (middle
> set or better, depending on the above) a huge draw, (open ended, TP,
> flush draw with an over, etc.), or a hell of a read on your
> opponent.
>
> These aren't tournaments. You aren't going to scare anyone out if
> they have the odds to draw, ESPECIALLY on the flop. It's not a game of
> survival. It's a game of making them make the wrong decisions based on
> the odds and your read over and over again, and letting the math even
> out. If you have top set against one opponent on the turn and there is
> only a straight draw out there, in a tournament you MAY in some
> situations want him to fold so you don't risk elimination. In a cash
> game, if he's 15% or 25% to hit and bets your stack, beat him in the
> pot.
>
> I'd suggest getting a book on cash games. You'll really start to
> understand these differences and many others.

AND I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU BE THE FIRST ONE TO READ THAT BOOK !!


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 07:54:00
From: Lute
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31, 10:55=A0am, "CincinnatiKid" <a1...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Dec 31 2008 10:33 AM, Lute wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
> > games. =A0Although I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in 2008=
,
> > the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
> > add up). =A0I thought that maybe cash games would provide more frequent=
,
> > if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
> > profits.
>
> > But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> > day), I am losing over all.
>
> > When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
> > think I am.
>
> > Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. =A0Player to my left re-raises to =
6
> > BB. =A0All others fold, I call. =A0Flop K-J-2. =A0turn and river x-x.
>
> > Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> > with top set (KK preflop).
>
> > Next day, almost identical situation. =A0But this time, when opponent r=
e-
> > raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. =A0I fold 2nd set. =A0He shows to=
p 2
> > pair.
>
> > So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. =A0Then I notice
> > this: =A0when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> > profit. =A0But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).
>
> > And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> > these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.
>
> > Am I being out played? =A0Granted, the examples I gave are very limited=
,
> > but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> > full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.
>
> > As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> > (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> > is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.
>
> > But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> > and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> > be break-even. =A0At least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> > (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> > session. =A0Online the players are much tighter. =A0But is that the iss=
ue
> > here?)
>
> > Thanks for any help you might offer.
>
> Online cash games blow. Stop playing them. Half your opponents at the
> table are playing 10+ tables and sticking to Hellmuth's "Top Ten hands."
> Also, if you're folding ANY flopped set on a non-coordinated board then
> you're playing badly. You just can't do it. Not in a cash game.
>
> I suggest SNG's. Even the 180 man SNG's are good (especially the $22).
>
> _______________________________________________________________________=
=A0
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more..www.recgroups.com- Hide q=
uoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you.


 
Date: 31 Dec 2008 07:55:34
From: CincinnatiKid
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31 2008 10:33 AM, Lute wrote:

> Recently I've been moving my online efforts from trny games to cash
> games. Although I've moneyed for several big prizes in trnys in 2008,
> the long dry spells in between have been frustrating (and the costs
> add up). I thought that maybe cash games would provide more frequent,
> if smaller, rewards, and that over a year, I should get about the same
> profits.
>
> But in my last 30 or so cash game sessions (about 3 hours online per
> day), I am losing over all.
>
> When I lose in the following situations, I feel like the donk you all
> think I am.
>
> Mid pos I hold JJ and raise to 3 BB. Player to my left re-raises to 6
> BB. All others fold, I call. Flop K-J-2. turn and river x-x.
>
> Before the betting is done, I'm all in with second set, opponent wins
> with top set (KK preflop).
>
> Next day, almost identical situation. But this time, when opponent re-
> raises, I'm thinking, he has top set. I fold 2nd set. He shows top 2
> pair.
>
> So then I'm back to sticking with sets to the end. Then I notice
> this: when I win in these situations, I'm getting maybe 10-12 BB
> profit. But when I lose, it's my whole stack (usually 40-50 BB).
>
> And aside from the minor pots which are mostly a wash over all, it is
> these big bet situations that seem to account for my loss ratio.
>
> Am I being out played? Granted, the examples I gave are very limited,
> but essentially, I am losing overall with my best hands, not getting
> full value when I win, but giving full value when I lose.
>
> As time goes by, I have been narrowing the gap, and have made some
> (pat myself on the back) good folds in 3-handed situations where there
> is a showdown, along with some good bluffs in hu hands.
>
> But I just have this feeling that I am missing an important element,
> and that even if I keep improving, my max potential is only going to
> be break-even. At least in trnys, I do better than that.
>
> (I do okay in b&m cash games, despite the wide swings from session to
> session. Online the players are much tighter. But is that the issue
> here?)
>
> Thanks for any help you might offer.

Online cash games blow. Stop playing them. Half your opponents at the
table are playing 10+ tables and sticking to Hellmuth's "Top Ten hands."
Also, if you're folding ANY flopped set on a non-coordinated board then
you're playing badly. You just can't do it. Not in a cash game.

I suggest SNG's. Even the 180 man SNG's are good (especially the $22).

_______________________________________________________________________ 
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Date: 31 Dec 2008 07:55:14
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
> Thanks for any help you might offer.

The only thing I can think to say is:

WHEN you flop a big hand (middle set etc) KNOW who the other guy is in the
pot.

If he is an idiot, but happens to have top set or a flush whatever then
shit happens.

If he is a TAG and you dismiss it and lose than its your fault.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 09:09:07
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
On Dec 31 2008 9:55 AM, John_Brian_K wrote:

> > Thanks for any help you might offer.
>
> The only thing I can think to say is:
>
> WHEN you flop a big hand (middle set etc) KNOW who the other guy is in the
> pot.
>
> If he is an idiot, but happens to have top set or a flush whatever then
> shit happens.
>
> If he is a TAG and you dismiss it and lose than its your fault.

YOU ARE SHOWING YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE HERE SPARKY .

You just advised him to learn when to fold second set against the right
players .

DO YOU KNOW HOW LAME THAT STATEMENT IS ?
>
> ========================================
> You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
> nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
> ========
> BOOM byae
> John


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 31 Dec 2008 11:16:57
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Cash Game Question
> You just advised him to learn when to fold second set against the right
> players .
>
> DO YOU KNOW HOW LAME THAT STATEMENT IS ?

Stop trolling me old man. I never said that. Go sit in the corner until
I say otherwise.

========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
========
BOOM byae
John

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