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Date: 05 Feb 2009 11:42:21
From: bassin_guy
Subject: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
First off, yes I am a terrible poker player, thank you for noticing, no
need to comment strictly on the level of terribleness, just please help me
fix a few leaks.

1. Med pocket pairs (77-TT) in the blinds 6-handed when facing a button
raise. This is at Party on the .50/1 tables. Typical raise is to 4. At
first I tried the aggro method of re-raising to 14 (typical strong reraise
at this level) and if it was a steal attempt, then you take it down, but
if the guy actually woke up with a hand you could get smooth called and
suddenly it's looking like it could be a stack breaking pot if you don't
flop good as you can either continuation bet or give up on it or try the
hero check-raise. If they re-pop it pre-flop, you have to assume it's not
a re-re-steal and fold hoping it's not AK/AQ sOOted which would justify
the call, but then you'd be playing out of position. One out of ten times
I would call and bet the flop (any flop) in a stop-n-go type manuevre but
that usually worked out bad. So now I've gone to the opposite end of the
spectrum to call-check-fold on any flops that miss. Super puzzy passive
and easily exploitable by the better players. But I'm letting the past
affect me and am now 'afraid' to get stacked overcommiting with a med
pair. Not sure of what else to try? Min raising to 7? Raising to less
like 10-11?

2. How to deal with short stackers. Guys that come in with only $20 and
try to double up and leave or bust and leave. Is there a conventional
wisdom for dealing with shorties?

3. Open-enders, double-gutters and flush draws (8 or 9 outers). I'm
bleeding money profusely from flopping these and never seem to get there.
I think I'm fooling myself on the implied odds if I hit, but should I be
folding these to a pot or 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop?

Is there a book out there for short-handed or 6-handed NLHE on-line?

Thanks!

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:28:51
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 1:42 PM, bassin_guy wrote:

> First off, yes I am a terrible poker player, thank you for noticing, no
> need to comment strictly on the level of terribleness, just please help me
> fix a few leaks.
>
> 1. Med pocket pairs (77-TT) in the blinds 6-handed when facing a button
> raise. This is at Party on the .50/1 tables. Typical raise is to 4. At
> first I tried the aggro method of re-raising to 14 (typical strong reraise
> at this level) and if it was a steal attempt, then you take it down, but
> if the guy actually woke up with a hand you could get smooth called and
> suddenly it's looking like it could be a stack breaking pot if you don't
> flop good as you can either continuation bet or give up on it or try the
> hero check-raise. If they re-pop it pre-flop, you have to assume it's not
> a re-re-steal and fold hoping it's not AK/AQ sOOted which would justify
> the call, but then you'd be playing out of position. One out of ten times
> I would call and bet the flop (any flop) in a stop-n-go type manuevre but
> that usually worked out bad. So now I've gone to the opposite end of the
> spectrum to call-check-fold on any flops that miss. Super puzzy passive
> and easily exploitable by the better players. But I'm letting the past
> affect me and am now 'afraid' to get stacked overcommiting with a med
> pair. Not sure of what else to try? Min raising to 7? Raising to less
> like 10-11?
>
> 2. How to deal with short stackers. Guys that come in with only $20 and
> try to double up and leave or bust and leave. Is there a conventional
> wisdom for dealing with shorties?
>
> 3. Open-enders, double-gutters and flush draws (8 or 9 outers). I'm
> bleeding money profusely from flopping these and never seem to get there.
> I think I'm fooling myself on the implied odds if I hit, but should I be
> folding these to a pot or 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop?
>
> Is there a book out there for short-handed or 6-handed NLHE on-line?
>
> Thanks!

Why the fuck would you want to intentionally play OOP with a weak hand
for well over 10% of your stack? No line you adopt postflop can dig you
out of a hole like that.

Call and setfarm unless you or your opponent is short stacked.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:06:51
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 1:42 PM, bassin_guy wrote:

For the most part it seems like you're trying to come up with a list of
set rules to play poker by. I'm not a big fan of that, so I'm going to
avoid answering most of the questions that are looking for those types of
answers. I will answer this one:

> 2. How to deal with short stackers. Guys that come in with only $20 and
> try to double up and leave or bust and leave. Is there a conventional
> wisdom for dealing with shorties?

You need to determine why the person is short stacked first. Are they
doing it because that's all the money they have? Are they doing it
because they don't want to lose a whole stack. Or are they doing it
because of the advantage they have in playing a stack of that size?

One of the biggest problems I've seen is that people think they can run
over short stacks at cash games just because they have more money on the
table. This is not correct thinking and is exactly why short stacking can
be profitable. I've seen people call with any pair no kicker or even a
single A in pots against a short stack because they have this feeling that
because the short stack has so little money that they can't possibly have
a hand. I've also seen them make incredibly useless bluffs against short
stacks for the same reasons.

Figure out why the person is buying in short and you adjust your play
accordingly.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:30:32
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 1:42 PM, bassin_guy wrote:

> First off, yes I am a terrible poker player, thank you for noticing, no
> need to comment strictly on the level of terribleness, just please help me
> fix a few leaks.
>
> 1. Med pocket pairs (77-TT) in the blinds 6-handed when facing a button
> raise. This is at Party on the .50/1 tables. Typical raise is to 4. At
> first I tried the aggro method of re-raising to 14 (typical strong reraise
> at this level) and if it was a steal attempt, then you take it down, but
> if the guy actually woke up with a hand you could get smooth called and
> suddenly it's looking like it could be a stack breaking pot if you don't
> flop good as you can either continuation bet or give up on it or try the
> hero check-raise. If they re-pop it pre-flop, you have to assume it's not
> a re-re-steal and fold hoping it's not AK/AQ sOOted which would justify
> the call, but then you'd be playing out of position. One out of ten times
> I would call and bet the flop (any flop) in a stop-n-go type manuevre but
> that usually worked out bad. So now I've gone to the opposite end of the
> spectrum to call-check-fold on any flops that miss. Super puzzy passive
> and easily exploitable by the better players. But I'm letting the past
> affect me and am now 'afraid' to get stacked overcommiting with a med
> pair. Not sure of what else to try? Min raising to 7? Raising to less
> like 10-11?

why would anyone want to reraise outta the blind with 77 ?
>
> 2. How to deal with short stackers. Guys that come in with only $20 and
> try to double up and leave or bust and leave. Is there a conventional
> wisdom for dealing with shorties?

yes have the best hand and allow the ones who want to get broke to do so

>
> 3. Open-enders, double-gutters and flush draws (8 or 9 outers). I'm
> bleeding money profusely from flopping these and never seem to get there.
> I think I'm fooling myself on the implied odds if I hit, but should I be
> folding these to a pot or 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop?

Good luck with this one .. overplaying flush draws are the single biggest
thing the TVSMs do wrong THEY NEVER FOLD A FLUSH DRAW .. EVER . Once
they get one in a pot , they are at the mercy of the math
>
> Is there a book out there for short-handed or 6-handed NLHE on-line?
>
> Thanks!


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:28:07
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
> 2. How to deal with short stackers. Guys that come in with only $20 and
> try to double up and leave or bust and leave. Is there a conventional
> wisdom for dealing with shorties?

LOL

i did this yesterday. I sat with my whole roll figuring to lose it or
double up a few times to make something. I pushed on the flop of
something like 3K8o right f000kin smack dab into pocket kings.

lol

The fucker slow rolled me and took like 10 seconds to call.
F0000000000ker.

==========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
==============================
47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
JBK

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 12:29:46
From:
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5, 2:42=A0pm, "bassin_guy" <bassin_...@net3.ca > wrote:
> First off, yes I am a terrible poker player, thank you for noticing, no
> need to comment strictly on the level of terribleness, just please help m=
e
> fix a few leaks.
>
> 1. =A0Med pocket pairs (77-TT) in the blinds 6-handed when facing a butto=
n
> raise. =A0This is at Party on the .50/1 tables. =A0Typical raise is to 4.=
=A0At
> first I tried the aggro method of re-raising to 14 (typical strong rerais=
e
> at this level) and if it was a steal attempt, then you take it down, but
> if the guy actually woke up with a hand you could get smooth called and
> suddenly it's looking like it could be a stack breaking pot if you don't
> flop good as you can either continuation bet or give up on it or try the
> hero check-raise. =A0If they re-pop it pre-flop, you have to assume it's =
not
> a re-re-steal and fold hoping it's not AK/AQ sOOted which would justify
> the call, but then you'd be playing out of position. =A0One out of ten ti=
mes
> I would call and bet the flop (any flop) in a stop-n-go type manuevre but
> that usually worked out bad. =A0So now I've gone to the opposite end of t=
he
> spectrum to call-check-fold on any flops that miss. =A0Super puzzy passiv=
e
> and easily exploitable by the better players. =A0But I'm letting the past
> affect me and am now 'afraid' to get stacked overcommiting with a med
> pair. =A0Not sure of what else to try? =A0Min raising to 7? Raising to le=
ss
> like 10-11? =A0


In a cash game against a button raise, I'm going to set farm all day
long if the stacks are deep enough. Figure you have to win about 30
to call (7-1, plus a bit to make up for the times you hit but still
lose), so you can't make the call if the button is a nit who'se never
going to pay you off. The great thing about shorthanded is that no-
one ever thinks you have a hand, and so they do tend to pay off more.
Certainly I wouldn't reraise OOP with a mid pair unless it was a bet
size that makes him think I'm committed. (Go and re-read SS2 again -
Doyle talks about this. For instance, with $50 stacks, he raises to
4, you raise to 20. You're betting 20, he really has to think he's
betting 50 because it's all going in on the flop anyway.) Reraising
to 10 or 11 would be putting yourself in no man's land, OOP. Bad
move.

Some say that with shorter stacks, they'll push 99 on up if the button
is habitually raising. The problem there is that he would never call
you all in with A-5 etc., only with a pair or two big cards. So in
that case whether you have 22 or 99 makes no real difference if you
decide you're going to go off to the races. You're either a 4-1
favorite, a 4-1 dog, or, most likely, 50/50.

If I call with 77, 44, etc., and it comes something like 9 high, I'm
either going to lead at it weak and then push it when he tries to
pressure me with a raise, or I'm going to CR him. Either way, I'm
going to put the pressure back on him.

Your fear about losing your stack has to be put out of your mind or
you can't make these plays. If necessary, drop to a lower limit where
you can afford to lose 3 or 4 buy-ins and it doesn't phase you.

> 2. =A0How to deal with short stackers. =A0Guys that come in with only $20=
and
> try to double up and leave or bust and leave. =A0Is there a conventional
> wisdom for dealing with shorties?

No idea. Talk to someone who plays a short stack a lot. Maybe Doggy
is around.

;)

>
> 3. =A0Open-enders, double-gutters and flush draws (8 or 9 outers). =A0I'm
> bleeding money profusely from flopping these and never seem to get there.
> I think I'm fooling myself on the implied odds if I hit, but should I be
> folding these to a pot or 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop? =A0 =A0
>

3 entirely different animals. Flush draws never get paid off to the
extent that people think they will, since they're so obvious. Double
gutshots are gold and should be drawn to. Certainly for a 3/4 pot bet
or less, and even a full pot bet if the stacks are deep enough and
your opponents (multiple are much better) are loose enough. That
having been said, you're about 17-1 against hitting on the turn, so
you really need some bluff equity, position, or something else to go
along with the draw to make it worthwhile (pair, etc.). Open enders
are good, same basic rules apply, but just be careful when you get
into the 10-J area. I.e., maybe not so smart to draw heavily holding
9-10 on a J-Q board, since a K gives you the idiot end, and you're not
getting enough action to justify your flop call from anyone without
A-10 or a moster redraw (flush/boat). (Again, this is for cash
games.) As far as rule as to when to draw, tough to pin it down that
much, but I'd say having at least 2 other in the pot, with position on
at least one of them, and stacks equal to at least 10 x the pot bet,
would have to be the minimum.

> Is there a book out there for short-handed or 6-handed NLHE on-line?

I think there are a couple, but I can't remember right now.



  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 05:56:35
From:
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 6, 3:46=A0am, Pepe Papon <hitmeis...@mindspring.dot.com.invalid >
wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:29:46 -0800 (PST), johnnycoconuts...@yahoo.com
> wrote:
>
> > Double
> >gutshots are gold and should be drawn to. =A0Certainly for a 3/4 pot bet
> >or less, and even a full pot bet if the stacks are deep enough and
> >your opponents (multiple are much better) are loose enough. That
> >having been said, you're about 17-1 against hitting on the turn, so
> >you really need some bluff equity, position, or something else to go
> >along with the draw to make it worthwhile (pair, etc.).
>
> Are you saying that you're 17-1 against hitting a double gutshot on
> the turn? =A0 You have 8 outs and there are 47 unknown cards. =A08 out of
> 47 is more like 6-1. =A0
>
> You probably meant that there's a 17% chance of hitting on the turn.
> Understandable mistake, but a huge difference.


Yes, typo. Thx. I was thinking percentages but typed odds by mistake.
Good catch.


  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 00:46:19
From: Pepe Papon
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:29:46 -0800 (PST), johnnycoconutsftp@yahoo.com
wrote:

> Double
>gutshots are gold and should be drawn to. Certainly for a 3/4 pot bet
>or less, and even a full pot bet if the stacks are deep enough and
>your opponents (multiple are much better) are loose enough. That
>having been said, you're about 17-1 against hitting on the turn, so
>you really need some bluff equity, position, or something else to go
>along with the draw to make it worthwhile (pair, etc.).

Are you saying that you're 17-1 against hitting a double gutshot on
the turn? You have 8 outs and there are 47 unknown cards. 8 out of
47 is more like 6-1.

You probably meant that there's a 17% chance of hitting on the turn.
Understandable mistake, but a huge difference.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 15:13:06
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:42:21 -0800, "bassin_guy" <bassin_guy@net3.ca >
wrote:

>First off, yes I am a terrible poker player, thank you for noticing, no
>need to comment strictly on the level of terribleness, just please help me
>fix a few leaks.

>1. Med pocket pairs (77-TT) in the blinds 6-handed when facing a button
>raise. This is at Party on the .50/1 tables. Typical raise is to 4. At
>first I tried the aggro method of re-raising to 14 (typical strong reraise
>at this level) and if it was a steal attempt, then you take it down, but
>if the guy actually woke up with a hand you could get smooth called and
>suddenly it's looking like it could be a stack breaking pot if you don't
>flop good as you can either continuation bet or give up on it or try the
>hero check-raise. If they re-pop it pre-flop, you have to assume it's not
>a re-re-steal and fold hoping it's not AK/AQ sOOted which would justify
>the call, but then you'd be playing out of position. One out of ten times
>I would call and bet the flop (any flop) in a stop-n-go type manuevre but
>that usually worked out bad. So now I've gone to the opposite end of the
>spectrum to call-check-fold on any flops that miss. Super puzzy passive
>and easily exploitable by the better players. But I'm letting the past
>affect me and am now 'afraid' to get stacked overcommiting with a med
>pair. Not sure of what else to try? Min raising to 7? Raising to less
>like 10-11?

I'd alternate between the continuation bet, check-calling, and
check-raising. I'd tend to check and call more often with hyper-aggro
players, except on the scariest boards, continuation bets on more
SLAPpy (slightly loose aggressive preflop and tighter and more passive
postflop) players (reconsidering my strategy on the turn if I get
called) and the occasional check-raise to mix it up. You really have
to know the other players in these 6-max games.

>2. How to deal with short stackers. Guys that come in with only $20 and
>try to double up and leave or bust and leave. Is there a conventional
>wisdom for dealing with shorties?

I'd assume a shorty pushing is pushing for value. An exception might
be if they have something like $21.98 or some other weird number
because they might just be on a roll job, i.e. losing their last
money, and might just be jamming any ace or other bullshit.

I'd be tight if they raise, and only take them on with something like
AK (maybe only AKs) or 88+ or so. Maybe tighter in earlier position.
But if I did it would be for the remainder of their stack.

That's unless it's a maniacal roll job type probably on tilt who
appears to be going apeshit. Then I'd use discretion but similarly,
be inclined to put them all in on any hand I take them on with. Maybe
AJs and any pair 55+, maybe even looser.

>3. Open-enders, double-gutters and flush draws (8 or 9 outers). I'm
>bleeding money profusely from flopping these and never seem to get there.
>I think I'm fooling myself on the implied odds if I hit, but should I be
>folding these to a pot or 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop?

That or raising. I'd be inclined to use hands like this for
semi-bluffs. You can't really let people run all over you in these
games, or you'll just get robbed and lose money.

>Is there a book out there for short-handed or 6-handed NLHE on-line?

Not a good one, that I'm aware of. I'm not very impressed with my own
skill in these games, so I don't play them often, and should be taken
with a grain of salt on anything I say.


  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:00:53
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 2:13 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:

> You really have to know the other players in these 6-max games.

This is the answer to all of the OP's questions.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:18:59
From: bassin_guy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 5:00 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> On Feb 5 2009 2:13 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote:
> > You really have to know the other players in these 6-max games.
>
> This is the answer to all of the OP's questions.

Thanks AMBJ and johnnycoconuts for your responses.

Xaq,

Thanks. On that note, I am indeed attempting to learn the tendencies of
the players, I've even taken the occasional note but unfortunately as I
look back, they are not of much use. "Fucker rivered me on a 2-outer" is
of limited info other than he got it in bad once against me and stacked
me. lol

I bought Poker Tracker 3 with Party Points, but the on-screen info is all
misaligned and thus more distracting than helpful. Maybe its designed
only for 10-person tables. On occasion I can go back and look up an
opponent's history wrt if he/she is a winning player in the sessions I've
played with them, but that is also of limited use. Other than by
accumulating a massive player info database over a long period of time,
what, if any, are some shortcuts to stereotyping a player's game. Like
do some people actually go back through their thousands of HHs and make
notes after the fact? Am I misunderstanding the proper use of Poker
Tracker? Is there a better software package out there for HH analysis?

I know this is a lower limit than most of you play, I play for
entertainment more than trying to make money. I don't want it to be a
grind or a job. I play the 6-handed tables basically because I want
action (IOW I have trouble folding pre-flop) and feel I can play more
hands that way. I won't ever be an expert, I will settle for just less
expensive of a hobby.

Thanks.

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:32:10
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 4:18 PM, bassin_guy wrote:

> Thanks. On that note, I am indeed attempting to learn the tendencies of
> the players, I've even taken the occasional note but unfortunately as I
> look back, they are not of much use. "Fucker rivered me on a 2-outer" is
> of limited info other than he got it in bad once against me and stacked
> me. lol

Yeah other than just pasting hand histories into the notes fields my most
common note is "this guy is a fuckin idiot." lol

> I bought Poker Tracker 3 with Party Points, but the on-screen info is all
> misaligned and thus more distracting than helpful. Maybe its designed
> only for 10-person tables. On occasion I can go back and look up an
> opponent's history wrt if he/she is a winning player in the sessions I've
> played with them, but that is also of limited use. Other than by
> accumulating a massive player info database over a long period of time,
> what, if any, are some shortcuts to stereotyping a player's game. Like
> do some people actually go back through their thousands of HHs and make
> notes after the fact? Am I misunderstanding the proper use of Poker
> Tracker? Is there a better software package out there for HH analysis?

What I was aiming for by quoting jacks' line there is that you should be
trying to figure out what your opponent has and playing his hand rather
than being so focused on yours. Your question was what to do with 77-TT
vs. a button raise. Instead of focusing so much on what your cards are,
you need to start figuring out what your opponents cards are. Based on
hands he plays what is his raising range? Is he
loose/tight/aggressive/passive? You should find yourself in situations
where it doesn't even much matter what your cards are, because if you know
what your opponent has you've already won. If you are playing more than
one table stop it and go back to a single table to work on these things.
Research the term flop texture as well.

> I know this is a lower limit than most of you play, I play for
> entertainment more than trying to make money. I don't want it to be a
> grind or a job. I play the 6-handed tables basically because I want
> action (IOW I have trouble folding pre-flop) and feel I can play more
> hands that way. I won't ever be an expert, I will settle for just less
> expensive of a hobby.

I think you'd be surprised. I think 50c/1 NLHE is well above what most
people on RGP these days play. If I had to list out my top 2 games and
limits based on number of hands played it would be 50c/1 6 max both NLHE
and PLO. I did much better when I finally was able to get past my own
holdings and start to adjust my game based on what I thought they had.
Hope some of this helps.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 18:16:46
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:32:10 -0800, "XaQ Morphy"
<a1c5905@webnntp.invalid > wrote:

>> I know this is a lower limit than most of you play, I play for
>> entertainment more than trying to make money. I don't want it to be a
>> grind or a job. I play the 6-handed tables basically because I want
>> action (IOW I have trouble folding pre-flop) and feel I can play more
>> hands that way. I won't ever be an expert, I will settle for just less
>> expensive of a hobby.

>I think you'd be surprised. I think 50c/1 NLHE is well above what most
>people on RGP these days play.

Agreed. I play 3/6 limit at times, if it's extremely good, 2/4 if
it's good, and usually grind 1/2 LHE. I also am dicking around with a
bit of Badugi to figure it out, and probably a -EV player at present
at that game.

Even so, I'm playing above my mini-roll that I got by cashing out of
Fleet Street onto Stars.


     
Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:39:17
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
> What I was aiming for by quoting jacks' line there is that you should be
> trying to figure out what your opponent has and playing his hand rather
> than being so focused on yours.

Oh horseshit. It's a button raise. The guy could have anything from aces
to air. There's no way in hell you're going to get some sort of magic
read on villain, especially online. This is a purely technical problem.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 15:56:29
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 4:39 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> Oh horseshit. It's a button raise. The guy could have anything from aces
> to air. There's no way in hell you're going to get some sort of magic
> read on villain, especially online. This is a purely technical problem.

Uhh, no.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
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Date: 05 Feb 2009 21:31:44
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 5:56 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Feb 5 2009 4:39 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
> > Oh horseshit. It's a button raise. The guy could have anything from aces
> > to air. There's no way in hell you're going to get some sort of magic
> > read on villain, especially online. This is a purely technical problem.
>
> Uhh, no.

Deep. Fact is, your opponent could be on nearly anything here. Yes,
there are some hands that you don't expect to see, but they don't have
much effect on how you're going to bet your hand preflop. This is a
technical problem, pure and simple. And unless the stack depths are
absurdly short or deep, the answer is always call.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 22:12:31
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 5 2009 11:31 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> Deep. Fact is, your opponent could be on nearly anything here. Yes,
> there are some hands that you don't expect to see, but they don't have
> much effect on how you're going to bet your hand preflop. This is a
> technical problem, pure and simple. And unless the stack depths are
> absurdly short or deep, the answer is always call.

Your above paragraph actually proves my point...if we're going purely on
what we have and what a typical button raise range is then yes, I agree
totally. But that's why we need to pay attention to previous play from
this player to try and narrow down what his range is. I think it's just
another case of you and I agreeing while still looking at it different
ways...

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:44:47
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 6 2009 12:12 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Feb 5 2009 11:31 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
>
> > Deep. Fact is, your opponent could be on nearly anything here. Yes,
> > there are some hands that you don't expect to see, but they don't have
> > much effect on how you're going to bet your hand preflop. This is a
> > technical problem, pure and simple. And unless the stack depths are
> > absurdly short or deep, the answer is always call.
>
> Your above paragraph actually proves my point...if we're going purely on
> what we have and what a typical button raise range is then yes, I agree
> totally. But that's why we need to pay attention to previous play from
> this player to try and narrow down what his range is. I think it's just
> another case of you and I agreeing while still looking at it different
> ways...

OK, help me out here, because I can't see your point at all.

First assumption is 100BBish stack depths.

Second assumption is that we're not folding. Even if villain's range is
so tight it's only aces, we at least call.

Given that, what would be required to make a roughly 3x re-raise correct?
Personally I would need to know the following:

1) Villain almost never puts in the 3rd raise here, even with aces or kings

2) Villain's range is wide enough that it's not filled with JJ+

3) Villain botches postflop play in some hideous and consistent way that I
know about - fit/fold or multi-barrel autobluff essentially 100% of the
time.

While I believe 2) is nearly a given, I can't can't imagine even 1 player
in 1000 fitting both 1) and 3), let alone you having enough information to
know about it. You'd have to play 100's of hands with someone to deduce
1), and if they do both 1) and 3) they'll likely be broke after those
100's of hands and you won't get to play with them any more.

So I don't see reading ever changing my play in practice here. It really
is just about your hole cards and the action thus far. On the flop,
matters obvious change greatly. But the first thing OP needs to do is
learn not to jack up the size of the pot OOP with mediocre holdings. It
makes the flop play a hell of a lot easier.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 13:22:18
From: bassin_guy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 6 2009 3:44 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
> So I don't see reading ever changing my play in practice here. It really
> is just about your hole cards and the action thus far. On the flop,
> matters obvious change greatly. But the first thing OP needs to do is
> learn not to jack up the size of the pot OOP with mediocre holdings. It
> makes the flop play a hell of a lot easier.

My experience to date appears to back that strategy. So once I've
set-mined, does that mean I fold on anything that misses me or contains
overcards? Do I put out a blocker bet to get a better idea of where I'm
at if the flop comes all unders? This seems to be where I'm getting in to
trouble, if I check it, it's an automatic continuation bet from them,
which tells me nothing. Do I call and hope he gives up on an AK bluff on
the turn?

As you guys say, the range on a button raise is huge, so I don't know any
better where I'm at except that the flop missed me.

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 14:04:10
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
> My experience to date appears to back that strategy. So once I've
> set-mined, does that mean I fold on anything that misses me or contains
> overcards? Do I put out a blocker bet to get a better idea of where I'm
> at if the flop comes all unders? This seems to be where I'm getting in to
> trouble, if I check it, it's an automatic continuation bet from them,
> which tells me nothing. Do I call and hope he gives up on an AK bluff on
> the turn?
>
> As you guys say, the range on a button raise is huge, so I don't know any
> better where I'm at except that the flop missed me.

I guess I should add that there are very few cases where you will pursue
this hand after an overcard flops (and against certain fit/fold villains
you lead out). Past that point continuing is a reverse implied odds hole
with no bottom. By folding in those case you will win less than 50% of
these hands. But you should win far more when you win (farm a set, snap
off one or two barrels) then you lose when you lose (typically just
folding the flop). The only way you lose big is if you run into a bigger
overpair (rare, if villain is on a wide range) or get outdrawn by a
bluffing villain (again, somewhat rare as they typically have 6 or fewer
outs).

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 13:57:07
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
> My experience to date appears to back that strategy. So once I've
> set-mined, does that mean I fold on anything that misses me or contains
> overcards? Do I put out a blocker bet to get a better idea of where I'm
> at if the flop comes all unders? This seems to be where I'm getting in to
> trouble, if I check it, it's an automatic continuation bet from them,
> which tells me nothing. Do I call and hope he gives up on an AK bluff on
> the turn?
>
> As you guys say, the range on a button raise is huge, so I don't know any
> better where I'm at except that the flop missed me.


Here's where morphy's argument about profiling villain makes a little more
sense. If villain is very tight, you can simply fold when you miss your
set/overpair and tread cautiously when all you have is the overpair. All
your expectation comes from set vs. top pair/overpair in that case.

If villain is looser, and tends to do a fit/fold, leading out for a
reasonable amount (maybe 1/2 to 2/3 pot) is mandatory as they will miss
and fold enough to make it profitable. When they call, it should be
pretty easy to tell where they stand based on the board and proceed
apropriately.

If villain is looser and reasonably aggressive (ie. has a frequently used
2nd barrel), your profit comes from snapping off bluffs when you flop an
overpair. You make enough money there (and on the occasional set) that
you can fold to overcards. In either case you always check to this
villain regardless of what you hit.

I don't think it ever makes sense to "blocking bet" here. In fact, I
don't really like that concept at all.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 14:42:46
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 6 2009 3:57 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:

> Here's where morphy's argument about profiling villain makes a little more
> sense. If villain is very tight, you can simply fold when you miss your
> set/overpair and tread cautiously when all you have is the overpair. All
> your expectation comes from set vs. top pair/overpair in that case.

Yeah I don't know what I was thinking, you were talking pre-flop
specifically and I was already moving to flop play in my previous posts.
Sorry about that.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 15:51:54
From: Wayne Vinson
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
> Yeah I don't know what I was thinking, you were talking pre-flop
> specifically and I was already moving to flop play in my previous posts.
> Sorry about that.

OK, now everything makes sense.

I just figured that the preflop issue had to be cleared up before it made
any sense to get into flop strategy. So I harped on that only to start.

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org/
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 12:07:12
From: bassin_guy
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Feb 6 2009 1:12 AM, XaQ Morphy wrote:
> On Feb 5 2009 11:31 PM, Wayne Vinson wrote:
> > Deep. Fact is, your opponent could be on nearly anything here. Yes,
> > there are some hands that you don't expect to see, but they don't have
> > much effect on how you're going to bet your hand preflop. This is a
> > technical problem, pure and simple. And unless the stack depths are
> > absurdly short or deep, the answer is always call.
>
> Your above paragraph actually proves my point...if we're going purely on
> what we have and what a typical button raise range is then yes, I agree
> totally. But that's why we need to pay attention to previous play from
> this player to try and narrow down what his range is. I think it's just
> another case of you and I agreeing while still looking at it different
> ways...

Thanks to all the responders. If nothing else, having to "think more" as
I play will help with the early onset alzheimers.

Appreciate it.

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 18:18:25
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Basic 6-handed NLHE strategy questions
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:39:17 -0800, "Wayne Vinson"
<a7a88fc@webnntp.invalid > wrote:

>> What I was aiming for by quoting jacks' line there is that you should be
>> trying to figure out what your opponent has and playing his hand rather
>> than being so focused on yours.

>Oh horseshit. It's a button raise. The guy could have anything from aces
>to air. There's no way in hell you're going to get some sort of magic
>read on villain, especially online. This is a purely technical problem.

Depends on what kind of player it is. IMO if someone is playing
properly, they're on aces to air, but the range is somewhat weighted
toward "real" hands which basically includes anything with a king or
ace in it. If they're playing too tight, they may very well have a
range of some sort.