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Date: 27 Jan 2009 09:39:28
From: MrBookworm
Subject: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
Yes, this is .02/.05 PLO. Been learning to play the game and only had $50
on my Stars account. I've run it to $150 over the past week while I learn.

PokerStars Game #24330933210: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2009/01/27
12:30:09 ET
Table 'Neufang II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Dr.okke ($5.82 in chips)
Seat 2: MrBookworm ($13.23 in chips)
Seat 3: cape-lucky ($5.55 in chips)
Seat 4: Raiderclone ($11.18 in chips)
Seat 5: maailmaparim ($10.26 in chips)
Seat 6: Negraun0 ($4.65 in chips)
maailmaparim: posts small blind $0.02
Negraun0: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrBookworm [2d 3d Ks Kd]
Dr.okke: folds
MrBookworm: raises $0.12 to $0.17
cape-lucky: folds
Raiderclone: folds
maailmaparim: calls $0.15
Negraun0: calls $0.12
*** FLOP *** [Kc Kh Ah]
maailmaparim: checks
Negraun0: checks
MrBookworm: bets $0.35
maailmaparim: calls $0.35
Negraun0: folds
*** TURN *** [Kc Kh Ah] [2h]
maailmaparim: bets $0.50
MrBookworm: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [Kc Kh Ah 2h] [Qd]
maailmaparim: bets $1.40
MrBookworm: raises $2.85 to $4.25
maailmaparim: raises $4.99 to $9.24 and is all-in
MrBookworm said, "lol"
Negraun0 said, "kkkk"
MrBookworm said, "y"
MrBookworm: calls $4.99
*** SHOW DOWN ***
maailmaparim: shows [As Ad 2c 8h] (a full house, Aces full of Kings)
MrBookworm: shows [2d 3d Ks Kd] (four of a kind, Kings)
MrBookworm collected $19.69 from pot
maailmaparim said, "AAA"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20.69




 
Date: 27 Jan 2009 10:25:53
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
On Jan 27 2009 11:39 AM, MrBookworm wrote:

> Yes, this is .02/.05 PLO. Been learning to play the game and only had $50
> on my Stars account. I've run it to $150 over the past week while I learn.
>
> PokerStars Game #24330933210: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2009/01/27
> 12:30:09 ET
> Table 'Neufang II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
> Seat 1: Dr.okke ($5.82 in chips)
> Seat 2: MrBookworm ($13.23 in chips)
> Seat 3: cape-lucky ($5.55 in chips)
> Seat 4: Raiderclone ($11.18 in chips)
> Seat 5: maailmaparim ($10.26 in chips)
> Seat 6: Negraun0 ($4.65 in chips)
> maailmaparim: posts small blind $0.02
> Negraun0: posts big blind $0.05
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to MrBookworm [2d 3d Ks Kd]
> Dr.okke: folds
> MrBookworm: raises $0.12 to $0.17
> cape-lucky: folds
> Raiderclone: folds
> maailmaparim: calls $0.15
> Negraun0: calls $0.12
> *** FLOP *** [Kc Kh Ah]
> maailmaparim: checks
> Negraun0: checks
> MrBookworm: bets $0.35
> maailmaparim: calls $0.35
> Negraun0: folds
> *** TURN *** [Kc Kh Ah] [2h]
> maailmaparim: bets $0.50
> MrBookworm: calls $0.50

Just a nitpick, but I'd raise here. Every hand that gets there got there
already, and he either has it or he doesn't. He's going batshit crazy
with a flush here, but will slow down with a lot of other hands on the
river (with the exception of AA that is). Your raise here is purely for
value to build a pot so you can get the stacks in on the river in the
event that he doesn't have AA but has something he's willing to go broke
with.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 10:43:03
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
> > *** TURN *** [Kc Kh Ah] [2h]
> > maailmaparim: bets $0.50
> > MrBookworm: calls $0.50
>
> Just a nitpick, but I'd raise here. Every hand that gets there got there
> already, and he either has it or he doesn't. He's going batshit crazy
> with a flush here, but will slow down with a lot of other hands on the
> river (with the exception of AA that is). Your raise here is purely for
> value to build a pot so you can get the stacks in on the river in the
> event that he doesn't have AA but has something he's willing to go broke
> with.

I was thinking that too. I wasn't sure whether to raise or just call. I
went with the call because this guy had been pretty aggressive when he
made his hand and I knew he would bet the river as well. Obviously with
him having AA he wasn't going anywhere no matter what I did. I should have
gone with my thinking for betting on the flop and raised here. One of the
reasons I bet the flop because I figured that I wasn't going to make any
money anyway unless someone had an A with the flush draw minimum so no
reason not to bet it.

I am enjoying learning the game. It seems that there are a few more fish
at PLO in online games than NLHE. At least the ones I've been playing in
these days.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 10:52:44
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
On Jan 27 2009 12:43 PM, MrBookworm wrote:

> I was thinking that too. I wasn't sure whether to raise or just call. I
> went with the call because this guy had been pretty aggressive when he
> made his hand and I knew he would bet the river as well. Obviously with
> him having AA he wasn't going anywhere no matter what I did. I should have
> gone with my thinking for betting on the flop and raised here. One of the
> reasons I bet the flop because I figured that I wasn't going to make any
> money anyway unless someone had an A with the flush draw minimum so no
> reason not to bet it.

Yes exactly. You'll lose the guys with a lower pair in their hand that
only had 2 outs anyway, but in the long run there's no reason not to bet
there. On the turn the flush card hit AND he led into you. If he doesn't
have a flush/fullboathouse he's shutting down as soon as you call and is
just check/folding the river anyway, but if he does have it, he's getting
money in. Calling and raising the river always works, sure, but I think
in the long run you build a bigger pot by raising the turn. Good thinking
though.

> I am enjoying learning the game. It seems that there are a few more fish
> at PLO in online games than NLHE. At least the ones I've been playing in
> these days.

There are, but there's also much less of an edge in PLO. Figure in NLHE
you can get a bad player in as a 75/25 favorite fairly often, but in PLO
you're going to be much closer to 60/40 at best in these same situations.
Still there are a lot of players who play just like holdem and don't
understand the game that play because they can play more hands. These are
the ones to target. Learn which players only ever bet/raise with the nuts
and avoid big pots with them.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 11:28:45
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
> There are, but there's also much less of an edge in PLO. Figure in NLHE
> you can get a bad player in as a 75/25 favorite fairly often, but in PLO
> you're going to be much closer to 60/40 at best in these same situations.
> Still there are a lot of players who play just like holdem and don't
> understand the game that play because they can play more hands. These are
> the ones to target. Learn which players only ever bet/raise with the nuts
> and avoid big pots with them.

Can the reduction of the edge made up by playing more hands? The reason I
think I'm doing OK is that I am a good player after the flop. With
position, I can play quite a few more hands successfully knowing when to
shut down and when to push.

A couple of observations/questions:

Position seems just as important as in Hold'em, maybe more. I'm finding
myself raising only when I have position pre-flop as it seems silly to
raise out of position since so many more hands make it to the turn/river.
Is there any reason to raise in EP in PLO?

Raising from the button or cut-off seems automatic if I'm first or second
entering a pot. With position I want to start building the pot early so if
I hit I can get paid off in later betting rounds. Am I on track with this
thinking? Once 2 have limped in front of me I will usually only raise with
a premium starting hand since there is enough money in the pot to allow
for bigger bets later.

How often do quads show up? I play 2-3 tables at a time and see quads once
a day or every other day (maybe even more). I've probably had quads 3
times in the last week. They actually seem to get paid off a bit more than
in HE too.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

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Date: 27 Jan 2009 11:45:22
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
On Jan 27 2009 1:28 PM, MrBookworm wrote:

> Can the reduction of the edge made up by playing more hands? The reason I
> think I'm doing OK is that I am a good player after the flop. With
> position, I can play quite a few more hands successfully knowing when to
> shut down and when to push.

The edge has more to do in big hand vs. big hand situations. Like, you
flop top pair, other guy has a pair, flush and straight draws. You are
both probably making correct plays by getting all-in on the flop, but it's
not more than a coinflip either way. You don't want to give a free card
for the draw, the draw doesn't want to miss the opportunity to get both
cards for the same price, so you are both committed to flipping coins for
your stacks.

> A couple of observations/questions:
>
> Position seems just as important as in Hold'em, maybe more. I'm finding
> myself raising only when I have position pre-flop as it seems silly to
> raise out of position since so many more hands make it to the turn/river.
> Is there any reason to raise in EP in PLO?

Depends on the table, but yes. I played 6 handed when I was doing
exclusively PLO so EP was really only UTG and then it didn't make much
sense not to raise. Stilll, you'll see in the videos I did that if I open
limped it was almost always UTG. If you're playing a fairly LAG style I'd
recommend raising everything you plan on opening with just to disguise
some hands.

> Raising from the button or cut-off seems automatic if I'm first or second
> entering a pot. With position I want to start building the pot early so if
> I hit I can get paid off in later betting rounds. Am I on track with this
> thinking? Once 2 have limped in front of me I will usually only raise with
> a premium starting hand since there is enough money in the pot to allow
> for bigger bets later.

Yup position is king in Omaha. One thing to spot is the people who love
to check raise. They come from holdem and don't understand the
differences. Against these people just bet your big hands and take the
free card on your draws. A lot of them will get upset that they weren't
able to check raise and bet the turn no matter what it is. Since they
expect you to bet your draws as well they'll give you less credit for when
you actually hit one, so you get a nice pot going.

> How often do quads show up? I play 2-3 tables at a time and see quads once
> a day or every other day (maybe even more). I've probably had quads 3
> times in the last week. They actually seem to get paid off a bit more than
> in HE too.

Hard to say how often, but it sounds about normal for you. They get paid
off because people just don't fold full house boats in PLO, and only a few
will consider folding flushes. Again, holdem mentality is what makes the
game so good.

On another somewhat related note: don't use standard cash game play in
tourneys. I've been doing some PLO sngs lately and the strategy is so
different it's almost a different game. I won't get into it here, but if
you're interested, try a few and see if you can see what I mean.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

------- 
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Date: 27 Jan 2009 11:55:08
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
> On another somewhat related note: don't use standard cash game play in
> tourneys. I've been doing some PLO sngs lately and the strategy is so
> different it's almost a different game. I won't get into it here, but if
> you're interested, try a few and see if you can see what I mean.

Ruh row... I'm in a $10 tourney on Stars right now. 136340186 Currently 24
out of 220.

1 or 2 adjustments I should make? I've just been targeting the agressive
ones and the ones that think TPTK is good. Standard tourney strategy for
me, winning without showdown is a good thing.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

---- 
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Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:06:10
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
On Jan 27 2009 1:55 PM, MrBookworm wrote:

> Ruh row... I'm in a $10 tourney on Stars right now. 136340186 Currently 24
> out of 220.
>
> 1 or 2 adjustments I should make? I've just been targeting the agressive
> ones and the ones that think TPTK is good. Standard tourney strategy for
> me, winning without showdown is a good thing.

Let's see, if I had to write up a quick one liner...tourney PLO is a
preflop/flop game whereas cash PLO is a turn/river game. See if that
makes any sense, lol.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

________________________________________________________________________ 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com



        
Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:26:52
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
I think I played this poorly, but it ended up OK. His turn and river calls
without a set or K high flush seem incorrect. I did try to bet enough on
the river so he would think I was bluffing the flush.Currently 5th out of
154.

Funny thing is, I put him on 2 pair on the flop but didn't think I was
this much of a dog, ouch:

pokenum -o 2d ac as js - 8h 9c 7c 5d -- 6s 8s 5h
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 6s 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Js Ac 2d 274 33.41 546 66.59 0 0.00 0.334
9c 7c 5d 8h 546 66.59 274 33.41 0 0.00 0.666


PokerStars Game #24335690774: Tournament #136340186, $10+$1 Omaha Pot
Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/01/27 15:10:23 ET
Table '136340186 10' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: MrBookworm (7105 in chips)
Seat 2: Matt Tobin (2835 in chips)
Seat 3: Steph4 (2685 in chips)
Seat 4: ma_sage (2731 in chips)
Seat 5: OUT7OUT (1070 in chips)
Seat 6: Sebar (11135 in chips)
Seat 7: MasterGmae (3694 in chips)
Seat 8: trippin bily (3230 in chips)
Seat 9: Esox Lucifer (3735 in chips)
Sebar: posts small blind 25
MasterGmae: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrBookworm [2d Ac As Js]
trippin bily: folds
Esox Lucifer: calls 50
MrBookworm: calls 50
Matt Tobin: calls 50
Steph4: folds
ma_sage: folds
OUT7OUT: folds
Sebar: calls 25
MasterGmae: checks
*** FLOP *** [6s 8s 5h]
Sebar: checks
MasterGmae: checks
Esox Lucifer: checks
MrBookworm: bets 200
Matt Tobin: folds
Sebar: raises 500 to 700
MasterGmae: folds
Esox Lucifer: folds
MrBookworm: calls 500
*** TURN *** [6s 8s 5h] [Qs]
Sebar: checks
MrBookworm: bets 1550
Sebar: calls 1550
*** RIVER *** [6s 8s 5h Qs] [7s]
Sebar: checks
MrBookworm: bets 2250
Sebar: calls 2250
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MrBookworm: shows [2d Ac As Js] (a flush, Ace high)
Sebar: mucks hand
MrBookworm collected 9250 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9250


         
Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:38:50
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
On Jan 27 2009 2:26 PM, MrBookworm wrote:

> I think I played this poorly, but it ended up OK. His turn and river calls
> without a set or K high flush seem incorrect. I did try to bet enough on
> the river so he would think I was bluffing the flush.Currently 5th out of
> 154.
>
> Funny thing is, I put him on 2 pair on the flop but didn't think I was
> this much of a dog, ouch:
>
> pokenum -o 2d ac as js - 8h 9c 7c 5d -- 6s 8s 5h
> Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s 6s 5h
> cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
> As Js Ac 2d 274 33.41 546 66.59 0 0.00 0.334
> 9c 7c 5d 8h 546 66.59 274 33.41 0 0.00 0.666

Yeah the problem with PLO is it's usually somewhat easy to put them on 2
cards, but the other two can cause all sorts of problems. If he has say
QQ85 here it's much different.

> PokerStars Game #24335690774: Tournament #136340186, $10+$1 Omaha Pot
> Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/01/27 15:10:23 ET
> Table '136340186 10' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
> Seat 1: MrBookworm (7105 in chips)
> Seat 2: Matt Tobin (2835 in chips)
> Seat 3: Steph4 (2685 in chips)
> Seat 4: ma_sage (2731 in chips)
> Seat 5: OUT7OUT (1070 in chips)
> Seat 6: Sebar (11135 in chips)
> Seat 7: MasterGmae (3694 in chips)
> Seat 8: trippin bily (3230 in chips)
> Seat 9: Esox Lucifer (3735 in chips)
> Sebar: posts small blind 25
> MasterGmae: posts big blind 50
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to MrBookworm [2d Ac As Js]
> trippin bily: folds
> Esox Lucifer: calls 50
> MrBookworm: calls 50
> Matt Tobin: calls 50
> Steph4: folds
> ma_sage: folds
> OUT7OUT: folds
> Sebar: calls 25
> MasterGmae: checks
> *** FLOP *** [6s 8s 5h]
> Sebar: checks
> MasterGmae: checks
> Esox Lucifer: checks
> MrBookworm: bets 200
> Matt Tobin: folds
> Sebar: raises 500 to 700
> MasterGmae: folds
> Esox Lucifer: folds
> MrBookworm: calls 500

I don't think I'd bet this flop. You have the flush draw sure but you're
up against 4 others. It looks like you can get a free card out of it so
you might as well peel one off. This is a case where you're only getting
called by something that has you in fairly bad shape.

> *** TURN *** [6s 8s 5h] [Qs]
> Sebar: checks
> MrBookworm: bets 1550
> Sebar: calls 1550
> *** RIVER *** [6s 8s 5h Qs] [7s]
> Sebar: checks
> MrBookworm: bets 2250
> Sebar: calls 2250

Turn/river look fine though. I might pot the river figuring if he calls
2250 he calls a pot bet. Otherwise looks good. Keep it up, gl!

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

------ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




        
Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:10:55
From: MrBookworm
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
> Let's see, if I had to write up a quick one liner...tourney PLO is a
> preflop/flop game whereas cash PLO is a turn/river game. See if that
> makes any sense, lol.

Thanks, it does. Excepting the first 2-3 levels with 3000 starting chips.
I assume those first few levels still play like a cash game unless there
is a shorty involved.

Dean

"When you respond to me, you are responding to a troll." - Paul Popinjay
1/16/2009

______________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




         
Date: 27 Jan 2009 12:30:03
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: BAHH: Good beat, quad kings beats aces full
On Jan 27 2009 2:10 PM, MrBookworm wrote:

> Thanks, it does. Excepting the first 2-3 levels with 3000 starting chips.
> I assume those first few levels still play like a cash game unless there
> is a shorty involved.

Yeah pretty much. Watch out for the players who just sit there waiting
for AAxx/KKxx and even QQxx/JJxx and will shove over any raise. There's
less outright stealing later on when these players are all over a table,
as between them they get it often enough to make it a royal pain.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

--- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com