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Date: 04 Feb 2009 14:49:55
From: Tad Perry
Subject: Answering the question "what did you have?"
I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I feel
that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.

So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?

One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
started arguing?

If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter what
you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you didn't
really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward more
likely to offend.

But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and say
smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares?
It beat your sorry-assed shit."

Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense even
further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't be
offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
things and there's always a risk.

So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me if
I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's kind
of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what anyone
says and the question is meaningless in the first place.

tvp






 
Date: 06 Feb 2009 03:02:16
From: ppdls
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4 2009 10:49 PM, Tad Perry wrote:

> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter what
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you didn't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward more
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and say
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense even
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's kind
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what anyone
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp

I have a friend (if you can believe that!) who once answered this with
"Balls of steel".

As a result he now has the nickname "Metal Mickey".

ppdls

--
Why procrastinate today, when you could leave it until tomorrow?

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 07:59:22
From: lvdlrs
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 6 2009 6:02 AM, ppdls wrote:


> I have a friend (if you can believe that!) who once answered this with
> "Balls of steel".
>
> As a result he now has the nickname "Metal Mickey".

I once had a dog with balls of steel and no hind legs.

I named him sparky.

Gary (...) Philips

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 14:03:20
From: smoothcortex
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
"thank God you didn't call - I misread the board ............."


  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 17:42:42
From: Dutch
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
"smoothcortex" <drsebesfi@huntsave.com.au > wrote
> "thank God you didn't call - I misread the board ............."

lol nice one

How about say the opposite of what you actually had, then admit that you
sometimes lie?



   
Date: 05 Feb 2009 22:00:43
From: Tad Perry
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
"Dutch" <no@email.com > wrote in message
news:gmg4ir$d1a$1@news.motzarella.org...
> "smoothcortex" <drsebesfi@huntsave.com.au> wrote
> > "thank God you didn't call - I misread the board ............."
>
> lol nice one
>
> How about say the opposite of what you actually had, then admit that you
> sometimes lie?

Maybe a good line is: "I'd just lie to you anyway."

tvp





    
Date: 05 Feb 2009 22:19:31
From: Steam
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 5 2009 10:00 PM, Tad Perry wrote:

> "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message
> news:gmg4ir$d1a$1@news.motzarella.org...
> > "smoothcortex" <drsebesfi@huntsave.com.au> wrote
> > > "thank God you didn't call - I misread the board ............."
> >
> > lol nice one
> >
> > How about say the opposite of what you actually had, then admit that you
> > sometimes lie?
>
> Maybe a good line is: "I'd just lie to you anyway."
>
> tvp

I just usually say I can't remember, i"m obviously lying, or I say I had
you beat, which is generally the truth, if they try to narrow that down
(when I'm not lying that I had them beat, or even if I am) then I just say
no more questions.

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Date: 06 Feb 2009 02:16:07
From: Tad Perry
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
"Steam" <a74baac@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:jc1t56xqoo.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Feb 5 2009 10:00 PM, Tad Perry wrote:
>
> > "Dutch" <no@email.com> wrote in message
> > news:gmg4ir$d1a$1@news.motzarella.org...
> > > "smoothcortex" <drsebesfi@huntsave.com.au> wrote
> > > > "thank God you didn't call - I misread the board ............."
> > >
> > > lol nice one
> > >
> > > How about say the opposite of what you actually had, then admit that
you
> > > sometimes lie?
> >
> > Maybe a good line is: "I'd just lie to you anyway."
> >
> > tvp
>
> I just usually say I can't remember, i"m obviously lying, or I say I had
> you beat, which is generally the truth, if they try to narrow that down
> (when I'm not lying that I had them beat, or even if I am) then I just say
> no more questions.

To tell the truth, I think I've evolved through all of these possibilities
over the years. I know I've said "I can't remember" before, but it leaves me
feeling like I'm not engaging with the person honestly.

In Seattle, I'm constantly playing the same regulars and we all know each
other fairly well--in many cases to the point of being friends. When I've
visited Vegas or California to play, the same can be true in some venues,
but not so true in others.

Online, the chances of playing the same fields daily is low.

Anyway, the absolute truth seems to work fine unless people somehow realize
that you really are to be trusted. So the absolute truth with a pinch of
doubt seems best. It's true that being outright rude may be the highest
earning choice, because experience tells me that tilt really does seem to
favor the tilter.

However, there's just no good reason to make such enemies in my environment.
I favor something a bit creative, and maybe funny, and unlikely to offend
even though that's always a risk. (For instance, Q: "Is it okay if I lie?"
If "yes," tell the truth. If "no," say "I don't want to answer then.")

tvp




  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 17:00:38
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 5, 5:03=A0pm, smoothcortex <drsebe...@huntsave.com.au > wrote:
> "thank God you didn't call - I =A0misread the =A0board ............."

"I knew you couldn't stand the heat" --- > they think you had the hand.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 08:48:00
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4 2009 4:49 PM, Tad Perry wrote:

> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?

Correct answer is: "shut up idiot."

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 16:39:15
From: Mark B [Diputsur]
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"

"XaQ Morphy" <a1c5905@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:0rhr56x1fg.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Feb 4 2009 4:49 PM, Tad Perry wrote:
>
>> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> Correct answer is: "shut up idiot."

Hey! No stealing my lines... I used that one on
you the other day!!! THIEF!




   
Date: 05 Feb 2009 13:57:58
From: XaQ Morphy
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 5 2009 3:39 PM, Mark B [Diputsur] wrote:

> Hey! No stealing my lines... I used that one on
> you the other day!!! THIEF!

Are you threatening me?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy@donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

"I think they are mad that i am borderline psycho" --igotskillz

"It's unfortunate that there are loons on both sides completely
obfuscating what's going on." --Official RGP Mantra

--- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 10:05:49
From: Mark B [Diputsur]
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"

"Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:gmd63e$e3u$1@news.motzarella.org...
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
> feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?


If they fold preflop: "I had a straight."

Postflop, non-paired board: "I had quads."

Postflop, uncoordinated board: "I had a straight flush."

Postflop, coordinated board: "Balls."




  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 15:53:32
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:05:49 -0500, "Mark B [Diputsur]"
<diputsur@gmail.com > wrote:

>If they fold preflop: "I had a straight."

>Postflop, non-paired board: "I had quads."

>Postflop, uncoordinated board: "I had a straight flush."

>Postflop, coordinated board: "Balls."

Alternately, "a big pair." Followed by a gesture indicating the
proper anatomical location.


 
Date: 05 Feb 2009 06:24:52
From: lvdlrs
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4 2009 5:49 PM, Tad Perry wrote:

> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?

My fav line is, "You didn't pay the peeking price."

Gary (oh those alliterations) Philips

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 05:55:23
From:
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4, 5:49=A0pm, "Tad Perry" <tadpe...@comcast.net > wrote:
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I f=
eel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter wh=
at
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you didn=
't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward mo=
re
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and s=
ay
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares=
?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense ev=
en
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't=
be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me=
if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's ki=
nd
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what any=
one
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp


The fact that nobody has responded with "Sorry John, I don't
remember." shows how sad this place is at times.




  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 06:39:28
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 5, 9:36=A0am, "John_Brian_K" <a7ec...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> > The fact that nobody has responded with "Sorry John, I don't
> > remember." shows how sad this place is at times.
>
> lol
>
> I did. =A0I just left out the John part....well, because that is MY name.

You are also too damn young to claim you already forgot a hand you
just played. On the other hand, when I say it is credible.

--
Will in New Haven



  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 06:36:09
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
> The fact that nobody has responded with "Sorry John, I don't
> remember." shows how sad this place is at times.

lol

I did. I just left out the John part....well, because that is MY name.

==========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
==============================
47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
JBK

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Date: 05 Feb 2009 05:00:22
From: charrison100
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
I always answer "The Nuts"

Chris

"NO! I want this shit to STOP! Right NOW! Nobody takes me serious
anymore." - Paul
Popinjay, 01/16/2009

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Date: 04 Feb 2009 23:56:45
From: Clave
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
"Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:gmd63e$e3u$1@news.motzarella.org...\
>
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
> feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?


"I had cards" shuts people up, and I've never had to say it three times.

Jim




 
Date: 04 Feb 2009 19:03:11
From: John_Brian_K
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
> tvp

Always, ALWAYS say sorry I forgot.

==========================================
You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
==============================
47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
JBK

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looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com




  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 00:50:35
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4 2009 9:03 PM, John_Brian_K wrote:

> > tvp
>
> Always, ALWAYS say sorry I forgot.

In your case this may be very appropriate .. I am not sure you can read
the board!!
>
> ==========================================
> You must not think me necessarily foolish because I am facetious,
> nor will I consider you necessarily wise because you are grave.
> ==============================
> 47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
> JBK


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

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Date: 04 Feb 2009 17:51:08
From: johnny_t
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
Aces... Always aces... And good fold....

Sometimes you're not lying...

What do you care if you offend someone?

Cheers
John

Tad Perry wrote:
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter what
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you didn't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward more
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and say
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense even
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's kind
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what anyone
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp
>
>


  
Date: 05 Feb 2009 16:57:56
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 5, 3:49=A0am, "FangBanger" <a29b...@webnntp.invalid > wrote:
> On Feb 5 2009 1:51 AM, Deadmoney Walking wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 4, 8:51=A0pm, johnny_t <nobod...@home.com> wrote:
> > > Aces... Always aces... And good fold....
>
> > > Sometimes you're not lying...
>
> > > What do you care if you offend someone?
>
> > > Cheers
> > > John
>
> > > Tad Perry wrote:
> > > > I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this informatio=
n. I
> feel
> > > > that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> > > > Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the =
case..
>
> > > > So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> > > > One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find =
that
> > > > people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know ho=
w many
> > > > times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe =
me and
> > > > started arguing?
>
> > > > If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to j=
ust
> > > > explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unles=
s your
> > > > hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no mat=
ter
> what
> > > > you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because yo=
u
> didn't
> > > > really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has br=
ought
> > > > being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable t=
he
> > > > instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push tow=
ard
> more
> > > > likely to offend.
>
> > > > But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you =
may
> > > > decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude=
and
> say
> > > > smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who
> cares?
> > > > It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> > > > Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offe=
nse
> even
> > > > further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and
> shouldn't be
> > > > offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the sli=
ghtest
> > > > things and there's always a risk.
>
> > > > So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you beli=
eve
> me if
> > > > I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." I=
t's
> kind
> > > > of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust wh=
at
> anyone
> > > > says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> > > > tvp- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > If I don't care, my default answer for this month is "something like
> > Aces"
>
> > Otherwise I correlate my answer with what I want to happen in future.
> > In a tight no limit game I might say "I was worried about my kicker
> > for a minute" so he might think I put in a big bet with just a
> > mediocre pair.
>
> > In a loose limit HE game I might say something that suggests whatever
> > draw came through, such as "A nice hand that didn't want anymore
> > hearts =A0out" =A0 This suggest I had a medium sized flush or made hand=
;
> > which might enable me to help myself to a large pot the next time the
> > board puts the 3rd flush card out.
>
> OH YEAH !! =A0PULLLEEEEZZZ .. GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE!!
>
> JUST STOP !!
>
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities=
.
> Voltaire
>
> ---=A0
> * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more..www.recgroups.com- Hide q=
uoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This account is now killfiled, better go back to posting as Susan.


  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 23:51:42
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4, 8:51=A0pm, johnny_t <nobod...@home.com > wrote:
> Aces... Always aces... And good fold....
>
> Sometimes you're not lying...
>
> What do you care if you offend someone?
>
> Cheers
> John
>
>
>
> Tad Perry wrote:
> > I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I=
feel
> > that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> > Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case=
.
>
> > So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> > One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> > people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how ma=
ny
> > times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me a=
nd
> > started arguing?
>
> > If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> > explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless yo=
ur
> > hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter =
what
> > you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you di=
dn't
> > really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brough=
t
> > being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> > instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward =
more
> > likely to offend.
>
> > But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> > decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and=
say
> > smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who car=
es?
> > It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> > Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense =
even
> > further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn=
't be
> > offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slighte=
st
> > things and there's always a risk.
>
> > So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe =
me if
> > I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's =
kind
> > of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what a=
nyone
> > says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> > tvp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If I don't care, my default answer for this month is "something like
Aces"

Otherwise I correlate my answer with what I want to happen in future.
In a tight no limit game I might say "I was worried about my kicker
for a minute" so he might think I put in a big bet with just a
mediocre pair.

In a loose limit HE game I might say something that suggests whatever
draw came through, such as "A nice hand that didn't want anymore
hearts out" This suggest I had a medium sized flush or made hand;
which might enable me to help myself to a large pot the next time the
board puts the 3rd flush card out.


   
Date: 05 Feb 2009 00:49:46
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 5 2009 1:51 AM, Deadmoney Walking wrote:

> On Feb 4, 8:51 pm, johnny_t <nobod...@home.com> wrote:
> > Aces... Always aces... And good fold....
> >
> > Sometimes you're not lying...
> >
> > What do you care if you offend someone?
> >
> > Cheers
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > Tad Perry wrote:
> > > I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
feel
> > > that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> > > Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case..
> >
> > > So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
> >
> > > One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> > > people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> > > times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> > > started arguing?
> >
> > > If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> > > explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> > > hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter
what
> > > you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you
didn't
> > > really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> > > being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> > > instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward
more
> > > likely to offend.
> >
> > > But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> > > decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and
say
> > > smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who
cares?
> > > It beat your sorry-assed shit."
> >
> > > Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense
even
> > > further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and
shouldn't be
> > > offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> > > things and there's always a risk.
> >
> > > So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe
me if
> > > I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's
kind
> > > of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what
anyone
> > > says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
> >
> > > tvp- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> If I don't care, my default answer for this month is "something like
> Aces"
>
> Otherwise I correlate my answer with what I want to happen in future.
> In a tight no limit game I might say "I was worried about my kicker
> for a minute" so he might think I put in a big bet with just a
> mediocre pair.
>
> In a loose limit HE game I might say something that suggests whatever
> draw came through, such as "A nice hand that didn't want anymore
> hearts out" This suggest I had a medium sized flush or made hand;
> which might enable me to help myself to a large pot the next time the
> board puts the 3rd flush card out.

OH YEAH !! PULLLEEEEZZZ .. GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE!!

JUST STOP !!


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

--- 
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com



 
Date: 04 Feb 2009 20:44:26
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"

"Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:gmd63e$e3u$1@news.motzarella.org...
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
> feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter
> what
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you
> didn't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward
> more
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and
> say
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense
> even
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't
> be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me
> if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's
> kind
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what
> anyone
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp

What makes you think you have to say any thing? I rarely talk when I play
and never show a hole card unless it's required to win the pot. When asked
some lame question at the table like "What did you have?", I don't say any
thing and just get ready to play the next hand. No insults, no snappy
one-liners, no standard answer. If I'm feeling really demonstrative that
night, and the same player has asked me more than once, I might give a
slight shrug. A couple of times like this and most quit asking. The only
people it offends are the ones looking to be offended and they'll be that
way no matter how you respond. Letting them guess what you had can be more
misleading, deceptive and unpredictable than any cards you show them. Most
players will respect and quickly accept that a player doesn't want to talk.
Given today's over-the-top, trash-talking poker environment many actually
appreciate it.

Irish Mike




  
Date: 06 Feb 2009 13:20:49
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
By a remarkable co-incidence, every time I'm asked, my cards were: 72o.


--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/


  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 23:44:36
From: Deadmoney Walking
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4, 8:44=A0pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> "Tad Perry" <tadpe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:gmd63e$e3u$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
> > feel
> > that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> > Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case=
.
>
> > So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> > One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> > people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how ma=
ny
> > times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me a=
nd
> > started arguing?
>
> > If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> > explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless yo=
ur
> > hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter
> > what
> > you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you
> > didn't
> > really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brough=
t
> > being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> > instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward
> > more
> > likely to offend.
>
> > But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> > decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and
> > say
> > smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who car=
es?
> > It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> > Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense
> > even
> > further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn=
't
> > be
> > offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slighte=
st
> > things and there's always a risk.
>
> > So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe =
me
> > if
> > I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's
> > kind
> > of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what
> > anyone
> > says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> > tvp
>
> What makes you think you have to say any thing? =A0I rarely talk when I p=
lay
> and never show a hole card unless it's required to win the pot. =A0When a=
sked
> some lame question at the table like "What did you have?", I don't say an=
y
> thing and just get ready to play the next hand. =A0No insults, no snappy
> one-liners, no standard answer. =A0If I'm feeling really demonstrative th=
at
> night, and the same player has asked me more than once, I might give a
> slight shrug. =A0A couple of times like this and most quit asking. =A0The=
only
> people it offends are the ones looking to be offended and they'll be that
> way no matter how you respond. =A0Letting them guess what you had can be =
more
> misleading, deceptive and unpredictable than any cards you show them. =A0=
Most
> players will respect and quickly accept that a player doesn't want to tal=
k.
> Given today's over-the-top, trash-talking poker environment many actually
> appreciate it.
>
> Irish Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not answering makes the game quieter and then the player is not
distracted in starting to focus on you. Since quiet games are usually
tight games I don't know why you would want this.


   
Date: 05 Feb 2009 03:17:56
From: Irish Mike
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"

"Deadmoney Walking" <tbonesays@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:a0688817-f5d3-4efc-8f7e-dbe2105a6d4d@h5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 4, 8:44 pm, "Irish Mike" <mjos...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> "Tad Perry" <tadpe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:gmd63e$e3u$1@news.motzarella.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
> > feel
> > that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> > Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> > So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> > One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> > people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how
> > many
> > times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me
> > and
> > started arguing?
>
> > If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> > explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless
> > your
> > hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter
> > what
> > you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you
> > didn't
> > really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> > being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> > instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward
> > more
> > likely to offend.
>
> > But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> > decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and
> > say
> > smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who
> > cares?
> > It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> > Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense
> > even
> > further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and
> > shouldn't
> > be
> > offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the
> > slightest
> > things and there's always a risk.
>
> > So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe
> > me
> > if
> > I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's
> > kind
> > of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what
> > anyone
> > says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> > tvp
>
> What makes you think you have to say any thing? I rarely talk when I play
> and never show a hole card unless it's required to win the pot. When asked
> some lame question at the table like "What did you have?", I don't say any
> thing and just get ready to play the next hand. No insults, no snappy
> one-liners, no standard answer. If I'm feeling really demonstrative that
> night, and the same player has asked me more than once, I might give a
> slight shrug. A couple of times like this and most quit asking. The only
> people it offends are the ones looking to be offended and they'll be that
> way no matter how you respond. Letting them guess what you had can be more
> misleading, deceptive and unpredictable than any cards you show them. Most
> players will respect and quickly accept that a player doesn't want to
> talk.
> Given today's over-the-top, trash-talking poker environment many actually
> appreciate it.
>
> Irish Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not answering makes the game quieter and then the player is not
distracted in starting to focus on you. Since quiet games are usually
tight games I don't know why you would want this.


The majority of poker players talk way too much and don't notice or tend to
ignore players who don't talk. I've played in more than 130 poker rooms in
nine countries, not to mention countless hours in private, semi-private and
"charity" games. I play the style that works for me but I'm not saying it's
for everyone. The fact is 80% of the action in most ring games comes from
20% of the players and they don't much care who else is in the game.

Irish Mike




 
Date: 04 Feb 2009 17:24:03
From: TeddysDad
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4, 2:49=A0pm, "Tad Perry" <tadpe...@comcast.net > wrote:
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I f=
eel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter wh=
at
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you didn=
't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward mo=
re
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and s=
ay
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares=
?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense ev=
en
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't=
be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me=
if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's ki=
nd
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what any=
one
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp

I always say "Could you beat {Q's}? I could beat {Q's}, I think".


 
Date: 04 Feb 2009 19:05:45
From: MZB
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
I use the old adage: "You have to pay to see them."

If they push, I'll say "2-3, but it was suited."



Mel
"Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:gmd63e$e3u$1@news.motzarella.org...
> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
> feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter
> what
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you
> didn't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward
> more
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and
> say
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense
> even
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't
> be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me
> if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's
> kind
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what
> anyone
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp
>
>




  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 17:13:14
From: Will in New Haven
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4, 7:37=A0pm, "James L. Hankins" <jhanki...@cox.net > wrote:
> "MZB" <m...@noway.prudigy.net> wrote in message
>
> news:weqil.6479$%P.1016@newsfe19.iad...
>
> >I use the old adage: "You have to pay to see them."
>
> > If they push, I'll say "2-3, but it was suited."
>
> I played with a guy who's standard answer was "two small pair." =A0No mat=
ter
> what the board showed, no matter how big the pot, not matter what the act=
ion
> was, when someone asked what he had, he always furrowed his brow real
> serious-like and said, "two small pair."

At my age I can get away with "I don't remember."

--
Will in New Haven


  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 18:37:50
From: James L. Hankins
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"

"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net > wrote in message
news:weqil.6479$%P.1016@newsfe19.iad...
>I use the old adage: "You have to pay to see them."
>
> If they push, I'll say "2-3, but it was suited."



I played with a guy who's standard answer was "two small pair." No matter
what the board showed, no matter how big the pot, not matter what the action
was, when someone asked what he had, he always furrowed his brow real
serious-like and said, "two small pair."




   
Date: 04 Feb 2009 20:16:07
From: garycarson
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4 2009 7:37 PM, James L. Hankins wrote:

> "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote in message
> news:weqil.6479$%P.1016@newsfe19.iad...
> >I use the old adage: "You have to pay to see them."
> >
> > If they push, I'll say "2-3, but it was suited."
>
>
>
> I played with a guy who's standard answer was "two small pair." No matter
> what the board showed, no matter how big the pot, not matter what the action
> was, when someone asked what he had, he always furrowed his brow real
> serious-like and said, "two small pair."

It's been my experience that a guy who does that has a high probability of
being a small time pro -- something that's nice to know if it's true.

---- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com




  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 16:29:25
From: mrtnfisher
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
I always just repeat my last bet, as in, "$20 more in the pot than you
had". That clearly indicates that the info is not being given out.



 
Date: 04 Feb 2009 18:51:34
From: A Man Beaten by Jacks
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:49:55 -0800, "Tad Perry" <tadperry@comcast.net >
wrote:

>I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I feel
>that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
>Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.

>So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?

Make up whatever is most likely to put them on tilt.


  
Date: 04 Feb 2009 17:12:40
From: funky cold medina
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4, 3:51=A0pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob...@fool.foo > wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:49:55 -0800, "Tad Perry" <tadpe...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I =
feel
> >that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> >Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
> >So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> Make up whatever is most likely to put them on tilt. =A0

There's something I've experienced at Commerce (that would get you
booted in Vegas). Guys showing their hole cards to the player next to
them after they fold.

Was in a pot a couple weeks ago where I had KK in mp. UTG raises
4xBB. Folds around to me and I reraise to 12xBB. Folds back around
to UTG. As that was happening - the guy to my left shows me that he
folded A9. WTF!? UTG raises all-in. I was going to call anyway, but
knowing that one ace is accounted for makes it even easier. (And what
if I was holding A-?). I see this and other random unorthodox shit
happening at the low-limit tables.

But my favorite thing happens online and live. *Love* playing at a
table with the guys that call everyone idiots and complain out loud
about all the -ev stuff happening. Constantly commenting 'oh that was
a horrible call' and what-not, in addition to giving unsolicited poker
advice which they genuinely believe to be gospel. It's too easy to
tilt them and read their hands. I almost start feeling bad about it.
I suspect that many of them have been brought up on online tournaments
and don't get that the cash game dynamics are a wee bit different.

I believe in betting patterns more than tells - and they broadcast
their *superior* style to everyone. They want you to know that by
god, they play these hands this way because it's correct.

Doesn't get better.


 
Date: 04 Feb 2009 15:20:34
From: FangBanger
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
On Feb 4 2009 4:49 PM, Tad Perry wrote:

> I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I feel
> that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
>
> So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
>
> One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how many
> times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me and
> started arguing?
>
> If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless your
> hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter what
> you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you didn't
> really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward more
> likely to offend.
>
> But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and say
> smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who cares?
> It beat your sorry-assed shit."
>
> Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense even
> further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and shouldn't be
> offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the slightest
> things and there's always a risk.
>
> So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe me if
> I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's kind
> of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what anyone
> says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
>
> tvp

i never show and almost always tell the 'truth" .. drives em fuckin nuts
as they never believe it anyway

leaves enough room for doubt


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire

______________________________________________________________________ 
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Date: 04 Feb 2009 18:02:00
From: Tad Perry
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
"FangBanger" <a29bed1@webnntp.invalid > wrote in message
news:2fkp56xg38.ln2@recgroups.com...
> On Feb 4 2009 4:49 PM, Tad Perry wrote:
>
> > I'm firmly of the belief that one should never give this information. I
feel
> > that in poker, the secret of your hand is Priority #1. "Sklansky's
> > Fundamental Theorem of Poker" essentially implies that this is the case.
> >
> > So, when you are asked, what should you say instead?
> >
> > One issue surrounding this is that even if you answer, you'll find that
> > people don't believe you anyway. I can't stand that. Do you know how
many
> > times I've told someone what I folded and they didn't even believe me
and
> > started arguing?
> >
> > If you don't want to be offensive, I think your best choice is to just
> > explain that you don't ever share your hole cards with anyone unless
your
> > hand has been called. Most people understand. Unfortunately, no matter
what
> > you say you still run the risk of someone taking offense because you
didn't
> > really answer the information. In that sense, the questioner has brought
> > being offended upon him or herself because that became inevitable the
> > instant he or she asked. So things like "I forgot" tend to push toward
more
> > likely to offend.
> >
> > But given the questioner is just setting themselves up anyway, you may
> > decide that it doesn't matter what you say. You can be totally rude and
say
> > smart-ass shit like "two face-down cards you'll never know" or "Who
cares?
> > It beat your sorry-assed shit."
> >
> > Or you can go the other way and try to alleviate the chance of offense
even
> > further. The straight-forward answer is usually good enough and
shouldn't be
> > offensive, but some people like to claim victim status over the
slightest
> > things and there's always a risk.
> >
> > So, my favorite answer to this question has become: "Would you believe
me if
> > I told you?" If they claim they will, I say: "Two pocket jokers." It's
kind
> > of funny. It's also educative and shows how they shouldn't trust what
anyone
> > says and the question is meaningless in the first place.
> >
> > tvp
>
> i never show and almost always tell the 'truth" .. drives em fuckin nuts
> as they never believe it anyway
>
> leaves enough room for doubt

I like that and I think that's pretty much the best approach.

tvp




   
Date: 04 Feb 2009 18:20:34
From: RazzO
Subject: Re: Answering the question "what did you have?"
Hey, it's Archie and Jughead.


On Feb 4 2009 6:02 PM, Tad Perry wrote:

> > i never show and almost always tell the 'truth" .. drives em fuckin nuts
> > as they never believe it anyway
> >
> > leaves enough room for doubt
>
> I like that and I think that's pretty much the best approach.
>
> tvp


RazzO

"Ugly people need jobs, too!" - my ex-wife

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